What if another country decided to start a war here to save us from inhumane treatment?

[marym625]

I was just wondering about the way we would respond to a country that shoots its own, unarmed citizens at the same rate we do. That has the incarceration rate we do. That has the torture in prisons we do. That allows its children to starve like we do when we spend billions on political campaigns, like we do. That advocates torture and allows those responsible for it to both walk free and gain monetarily, like we do. That spies on its own citizens without warrant or justification, like we do. That jails journalists that report truth, like we do. That jails whistle blowers, tech savvy activists, women for controlling their bodies, debtors and others that should never be incarcerated, like we do. That advocates hate against minorities, like we do.

Would we sit idly by? We would impose sanctions? Would we start a coup while remaining in dark background? Would we start a war?

We have no room to judge anyone with our house in such disarray.

[cali]

1. well, first of all, wouldn't happen. We're armed to the teeth.

Secondly, children don't starve in this country. Find one case of one child who has starved to death (and not the cases of parents who deliberately do it). We don't advocate torture under the Obama administration. That's a lie. And sorry, but most countries spy on their citizens. We don't mass jail journalists who report the truth.

I just think your op is dumb. Not that it hasn't been posted in many iterations in the past- and certainly will be in the future..


And sorry, but real life international politics is about making judgments. I can't imagine anything sillier than your last sentence.

[marym625]

4. First off

I never said that children starve to death. But they do suffer severely and that is the definition of starve.

Second, I don't believe for one second that any country would try to start a war here. I was talking about what we do vs how we respond to these same acts.

Third, I didn't say a word about the Obama administration torturing. That doesn't change the fact we did it and no one was brought to justice for it. That's a fact.

Fourth, since other countries spy on their citizens that makes it OK? That's your measuring stick for what we should do? Pretty lame.

Don't really care how silly you think it is. We are moving into a society that should be unacceptable on many levels. Your last paragraph just shows how other countries should judge us. And we don't deserve a break from that judgment.

On edit: I wanted to add that this post is not about President Obama or his administration. It is about our society and what we allow. All of this started a long time before President Obama.

[cali]

7. wtf? "That allows its children to starve like we do..."

you said starve. starvation is precise term. Children don't starve in this country.


Look, this country is an oligarchy, a corporacy and yes it started well before Obama, but sorry, your post is just juvenile.

[marym625]

10. Yes, it is a precise term

And it doesn't necessarily mean death. Children in this country have trouble learning, developing properly, have multiple health issues, etc because of lack of food. That's what happens when you starve. Are you denying this happens in the US?

Merriam Webster first definition of starve:

to suffer or die from lack of food : to suffer extreme hunger

: to cause (a person or animal) to suffer or die because of lack of food

: to want or need something very much

to suffer from lack of food

Thanks for your take on the post. Doesn't change the facts.

[heaven05]

26. excellent

Last edited Sun Apr 12, 2015, 05:20 PM - Edit history (1)

I applaud your cool demeanor....in the face of WTF.....

[marym625]

29. Thank you Heaven

Truly.

[davekriss]

23. 15.8 million children live in food insecure homes

"Fiood insecure" means in any given day they can and so go without sufficient food. On those days those kids go to bed starving.

http://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/impact-of-hunger/child-hunger/child-hunger-fact-sheet.html

You must live in another country than I do.

[marym625]

47. Thank you for the link

[KingCharlemagne]

73. Methinks the person to whom you were responding has never experienced severe involuntary hunger and

especially not as a child. I think it is significant that your post with evidence produced only the sound of . . . . silence.

[Joe Chi Minh]

17. How can you say that when she's just shot your post down in flames?

Are you aware that any American can be 'disappeared', without prior contact with family or lawyer?

It is reported daily that one or more unarmed Americans, either innocent, guilty of a misdemeanour or petty crime, are shot dead in the street. Maybe just for running away over an alleged broken-tail light? Do you really believe there are other developed countries in which children and nonagenarian ladies (didn't cut her lawn) can be electrocuted by tazer, indeed, shot, by either public or private police officers? One lad, a student, was tazered mulitiple times in a public library. Are they going to start digging up graves to taze the corpses? You can't get much more tranquil than a library or a graveyard. Must have carried some mean-looking books. 'Open carry' as well, I don't doubt. If that's not asking for trouble...

That there are politicians and banksters who exert too much fear to be arrested and tried. Indeed, are more likely to be promoted?

That you have a gulag of prisons housing a far greater percentage of prisoners per head of population than anywhere else in the world, by a wide margin; and in which many are serving long sentences for petty crimes? What profit they can't squeeze out of the private prisons, they'll get from mandatory probation.

That your executioners in the states where the death penalty still obtains, continue to seem incapable of despatching the condemned person promptly, i.e. without torturing them?

Now, we have 465 food banks and counting in the UK. We're never far behind the US in the race to the bottom.

We won't even go into the Iraq war.

Is that enough to be going on with?

[marym625]

25. uhm, are you talking to me?

You replied to me. But you seem to agree with me

[Joe Chi Minh]

35. Sorry, Mary. My mistake. Another senior moment.... By the way,

I doubled up with laughter when I saw the header of your O.P. Is that what they call them?

[marym625]

43. No worries. I have done the same

And here's another senior moment. I don't know what you mean, they call what?

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

30. Pay no attention WHATSOEVER to someone who would call your OP dumb...I mean that, dont engage them

at all, pretend they do not exist.

It is very difficult to do, I know, but it is something I am going to also try to do, life is too short to waste it.

EXCELLENT thread and post, BTW

[marym625]

44. Thank you

I try to reason first. If that doesn't work, I usually will ignore. Seems that they received a lesson from a few people. Maybe they'll actually do some research before spouting what they wish were true.

Thanks so much

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

46. Now watch me NOT practice what I preach

Ah hell, if it wasnt for them, this would be boring

[marym625]

48. lmao!

Good one! Please, be my guest.

[PowerToThePeople]

8. there was an op about homeless teens quite recently.

Last edited Sun Apr 12, 2015, 10:37 AM - Edit history (1)

There are hundreds, even in my somewhat small town. Many are at least malnourished if not starving.

[marym625]

11. Thank you!

[Bluenorthwest]

93. Great numbers of homeless teens are homeless not because their parents lack resources but

because their parents lack love for their LGBT children. The South in particular has a huge problem with this and of course not much in the way of safety nets for these kids. They are often turned away from shelters, this is particularly true of trans teens. Religious Charities tell others they do not discriminate, but they do.
40% of homeless youth assisted by agencies identify as LGBT, 30% of those using drop in centers identify as LGBT.
"The most frequently cited factor contributing to LGBT homelessness was family rejection based on sexual orientation and gender identity, with the second most common reason of being forced out by their parents after coming out."
http://nationalhomeless.org/issues/lgbt/

Something to be aware of next time someone tells you that civil rights have nothing to do with economic issues, survival and security.

[OnyxCollie]

22. The Obama administration may not advocate torture,

but it does torture.

Bradley Manning's treatment was cruel and inhuman, UN torture chief rules
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un

The UN special rapporteur on torture has formally accused the US government of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment towards Bradley Manning, the US soldier who was held in solitary confinement for almost a year on suspicion of being the WikiLeaks source.

Juan Mendez has completed a 14-month investigation into the treatment of Manning since the soldier's arrest at a US military base in May 2010. He concludes that the US military was at least culpable of cruel and inhumane treatment in keeping Manning locked up alone for 23 hours a day over an 11-month period in conditions that he also found might have constituted torture.

Committee against Torture
Concluding observations on the third to fifth periodic reports of United States of America
ADVANCE UNEDITED VERSION
http://tbinternet.ohchr.org/Treaties/CAT/Shared%20Documents/USA/INT_CAT_COC_USA_18893_E.pdf

While noting the explanations provided by the State party concerning the conditions of detention at Guantanamo, the Committee remains concerned about the secrecy surrounding conditions of confinement, especially in Camp 7 where high-value detainees are housed. It also notes the studies received on the cumulative effect that the conditions of detention and treatment in Guantanamo have had on the psychological health of detainees. There have been nine deaths in Guantanamo during the period under review, including seven suicides. In this respect, another cause of concern is the repeated suicide attempts and recurrent mass hunger strike protests by detainees over indefinite detention and conditions of detention. In this connection, the Committee considers that force-feeding of prisoners on hunger strike constitutes ill-treatment in violation of the Convention. Furthermore, it notes that detainees’ lawyers have argued in court that force feedings are allegedly administered in an unnecessarily brutal and painful manner (arts. 2, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16).

[marym625]

45. Thank you

I really just wasn't feeling getting into the President Obama debate. But I am thankful you did

[20score]

65. Why do you have to such a confrontational ass?

It's bad enough to be arrogant and belligerent, but to be wrong on top of it is just inexcusable.

You're not alone in your behavior, not by a long shot. But you and those like you keep chasing good people away from this site.

And that really is too bad.

[marym625]

66. +1000

Thank you. Really tired of it too. But, I figure people who can only be nasty, well, fill in your own reasons.

[marym625]

98. wanted to share this with you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026511728#post1

[Telcontar]

2. Nuclear weapons means never having to say you're sorry

[marym625]

5. +1000

[99Forever]

3. Hypocracy is the American standard these days.

Empire does whatever it pleases, until it comes crashing down.

[marym625]

6. That's exactly what I am afraid of.

And as time goes by, I lose more and more faith in us.

[bemildred]

9. We are governed so badly it should not be difficult. nt

[marym625]

12. I don't know about that. But I do think that

If some foreign entity wanted to start a coup, they could at least cause some big problems.

Thank you

[gwheezie]

13. what would really help a coup

Would be if the ussc declared corporations are people too and allowed multinational companies with big money backers from foreign countries to fund our elections.

[marym625]

14. ha! excellent point!

And omfd what a scary realization

[treestar]

15. Leaving aside the military problem

Which countries are so much better they can do this? Australia? The UK? France? Iceland? Sweden? Canada? These are the few I can think of.

Maybe if one of these countries got magical super-nuclear powers they could force us to have gun control and a single payer national health plan.

[marym625]

16. Obviously, I don't believe it would happen.

We just need to take a closer look at what we are becoming as a society. So tired of so much of this. And much of it is embedded in hate and the decline of our educational system. That and the unbelievable amount of money in politics.

[left-of-center2012]

18. What if another country decided to start a war here to save us from inhumane treatment?

Would that country also be dropping drones on America to kill people they didn't like?

[marym625]

31. Good question

Let's assume, if they're like us, the answer is yes

[Cali_Democrat]

19. It turns out it wasn't the Iraqi people who needed to be "liberated"

The American people need to be liberated.

[marym625]

32. Very sad truth

Thanks Cali-Democrat.

[davekriss]

20. Unfortunately, very accurate

Great post!

[marym625]

34. Thank you

It's been on my mind since the last horrific shooting of a black man caught on tape

[Cal Carpenter]

21. You must not be familiar with American Exceptionalism!

Our torture is always justified and never comparable to anyone else's. Our abuses of power are always exonerated by our neverending quest for FREEEEDOMMMMM***!!!! [font size="1"](*** freedom to accumulate shitloads of money and resources in the hands of very few at the expense of the vast majority of the population of the entire world)[/font]

No other nation has the right to meddle in our internal affairs, even while we meddle with and corrupt theirs, all the while destroying people's lives militarily and/or economically.

Get on board the American Exceptionalism bus or be forever labeled a traitorous terrorist-lover!!!

Are you with us or against us?

[marym625]

36. I'm sorry. I seem to have forgotten myself!

But I think I will skip the bus.

I'm busted flat in Baton Rouge, waiting for a train

[Cal Carpenter]

60. Better hurry and find a ride

The rain's a-comin'!

[marym625]

62. Love it!

[Thespian2]

24. I think you answered this question:

Why do other countries in the world dislike and mistrust America?

K & R

[marym625]

37. Thank you

And boy, we sure don't do much to improve the reality, never mind the perception

[jtuck004]

27. Depending on the price, some would hire them as contractors. n/t

[marym625]

38. Another scary thought

Have to say, loving most of the responses. Thank you for yours

[Joe Chi Minh]

28. With all the outsourcing of jobs in the UK,

I suggested, in the Guardian Comments section, that the British electorate give serious thought to outsourcing the government of the country, employing, say, Scandavian or German politicians to run our country. Fat chance, of course.

[marym625]

39. wow. now that's something I hadn't heard before

Great comment!

[appalachiablue]

67. But it's a great idea- Can we arrange a Nordic Coup here? Na, they don't want this funky place.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

33. The fact is we do still have it better here than most places, for sure. But if we use that argument

we excuse the abuses, we want to race to the top, not to the bottom

Good thread

[marym625]

40. Thank you much, NJNP

Yes, we cannot use that as an excuse. Kind of like what moms always say, if Jimmy jumped off a bridge. ..

[RiverLover]

41. Or killed us with drones, but it was OK because they got the bad guys on their list

& our collateral damage was insignificant & even expected & justifiable by this other country.

[OnyxCollie]

49. Our own country thinks it's OK.

Authority for Use of Military Force to Combat Terrorist Activities Within the United States
http://media.npr.org/documents/2009/mar/dojmemo_force.pdf

We believe that Article II of the Constitution, which vests the President with the power to respond to emergency threats to the national security, directly authorizes use of the Armed Forces in domestic operations against terrorists. Although the exercise of such authority usually has concerned the use of force abroad, there have been cases, from the 1794 Whiskey Rebellion on,5 in which the President has deployed military force within the United States against armed forces operating domestically. During the Civil War and the War of 1812, federal troops fought enemy armies operating within the continental United Stales. On other occasions, the President has used military force within the United States against Indian tribes and bands. In yet other circumstances, the Armed Forces have been used to counter resistance to federal court orders, to protect the officials, agents, property or instrumentalities of the federal Government, or to ensure that federal governmental functions can be safely performed.6 We believe that the text, structure, and history of the Constitution, in light of its executive, legislative, and judicial interpretation, clearly supports deployment of the military domestically, as well as abroad, to respond to attacks on the United States.

~snip~

Because the scale of the violence involved in this conflict removes it from the sphere of operations designed to enforce the criminal laws, legal and constitutional rules regulating law enforcement activity are not applicable, or at least not mechanically so. As a result, the uses of force contemplated in this conflict are unlike those that have occurred in America's other recent wars. Such uses might include, for example, targeting and destroying a hijacked civilian aircraft in circumstances indicating that hijackers intended to crash the aircraft into a populated area; deploying troops and military equipment to monitor and control the flow of traffic into a city; attacking civilian targets, such as apartment buildings, offices, or ships where suspected terrorists were thought to be; and employing electronic surveillance methods more powerful and sophisticated than those available to law enforcement agencies. These military operations, taken as they may be on United States soil, and involving as they might American citizens, raise novel and difficult questions of constitutional law.

[marym625]

54. Thanks for the post

I appreciate the links

[marym625]

53. and what the hell is wrong with a little collateral damage?

There's always more kids after all. <- just in case

[JEB]

42. "We have no room to judge anyone with our house in such disarray."

Accurately sums up the situation.

[marym625]

51. Thank you

[Omaha Steve]

50. We already did it once in 1921 the Battle of Blair Mountain

http://apwumembers.apwu.org/laborhistory/10-4_blairmountain/10-4_blairmountain.htm

Snip: On the night of Aug. 27, soon after miners began leaving the scene, reports came in that “Chafin’s forces were deliberately shooting union sympathizers in the town of Sharples, just north of Blair Mountain—and that families had been caught in crossfire.”

Infuriated, the miners turned back — some traveling in commandeered trains — to confront Chafin’s forces, and the battle was on. On Aug. 28, union forces captured four deputies. Three days later, a small armed company of Logan residents organized by a local Baptist minister killed three others.Chafin’s planes dropped homemade bleach and shrapnel bombs, but failed to intimidate the union forces. Many thousands of rounds were fired by both sides, as the miners attempted to storm the hill.

At Bandholtz’s request, President Harding sent federal troops to end the confrontation. Several thousand soldiers arrived by Sept. 3, along with an air squadron armed with bombs and gas.

Unwilling to fight the U.S. Army, the miners laid down their arms and returned home. Chafin’s forces also obeyed Bandholtz’s order to disband.

FULL story at link.



Miners display an unexploded bomb that was dropped on them by a coal company plane.

[marym625]

52. Thank you, OS

I have been thinking about what union workers, and miners more specifically, have gone through for humane treatment forever. Not just here but all over the world.

This is a great example of corpocracy. Thank you

[Omaha Steve]

55. My pleasure

[marym625]

56. I just love you

[Omaha Steve]

57. Marta says hello

[marym625]

58. Hi Marta!

I love Marta too!

[appalachiablue]

70. "We will hang Don Chafin from a sour apple tree". The second largest civil insurrection in

US history, the Battle of Blair Mountain. That event is part of the reason I am who I am today.

[marym625]

91. I have often wondered about your screen name

You should do a post about this. I would love to read it

[appalachiablue]

96. The Blair Mountain region is where I was born & so the 1920s labor struggle is well known.

In the 1970s there was some renewed activism to stop the destructive effects coal mining, and film director John Sayles came through as a young man and later memorialized the union fight in the 1986 film, 'Matewan', which portrays the 1920 events there that preceded Blair Mt. in 1921. Again in the 2000s, the mountain received more attention from the efforts of locals to prevent drilling the historic site for coal. Although I left long ago the wonderful foundation, education and love of natural beauty of the area has stayed with me.

[marym625]

97. I watched that recently

WillyT posted the movie. You sure come from good, hardworking, people.

Thanks for the post.

[Jesus Malverde]

83. Interesting history OS

Thanks!

[hack89]

59. There are so many countries worse than we are that we ignore

yours is not a hypothetical question- the answer is already out there.

[marym625]

64. It is a hypothetical

And just because we ignore some doesn't mean we ignore all. And frankly, the ones we ignore are probably the ones that need us the most

[williesgirl]

61. Great post and discussion. I agree with you. I'm so tired of

"American Exceptionalism". It's BS.

[marym625]

63. and becoming more and more blatant

Thank you

[woo me with science]

68. Thank you.

Outstanding post.

[marym625]

69. Oh thank you, Woo!

I know it was not written well but I just wrote it out quickly. Since I got my point across I decided not to edit it.

Means a lot coming from you!

[Initech]

71. You really think there's an army alive that could take on the US Army?

[marym625]

72. As I have stated a few times

I don't believe for a minute that any country would attack us on US soil. Not an actual country.

You are missing the point

[KingCharlemagne]

78. I teach English as a Second Language and currently have two Vietnamese

students. Based on my experience(s) with them, I can see why the Vietnamese kicked our asses in the 60s and 70s. These two students started out with the poorest English skills and have worked their asses off, powering past all but the most advanced and advantaged western Europeans in the class. It's pretty fucking incredible. So I'd say Vietnam could kick the ass of the mercenaries and REMFs in the U.S. Army.

Oh yeah, and the Iraqi Resistance proved itself no slouch either.

[KingCharlemagne]

74. We deserve to be invaded and occupied by a multi-national force solely on the basis of

how we allow our children to go hungry. And that's not to mention our arsenal of WMDs and all the other crimes you articulate.

[marym625]

75. sure would be karma

As someone up the thread said, though better than I will try to repeat, with international corporations allowed to contribute unlimited funds, there already is a coup.

[flvegan]

76. LOL? What did you have for breakfast, inhumane treatment. LOL again.

You're right, we have no room to judge.

[marym625]

77. You find inhumane treatment funny?

I think Amnesty International and UN reports about US human rights violations are both serious and correct.

[flvegan]

80. You should take a class on reading comprehension.

[marym625]

82. If I misunderstood, I apologize

But you wrote, "...inhumane treatment. LOL again."

Don't know how else to read that. Please just elaborate

[Nye Bevan]

79. We would bomb the ever-loving shit out of said country. (nt)

[marym625]

81. Yes, we sure would

But it would never happen. Not in this lifetime. Wasn't really my point. My point was that we have very serious problems that are just getting worse. Problems that we accuse others of without addressing what we are doing

[A HERETIC I AM]

84. I have found it interesting over the years I have been a member of DU, how few OP's are truly "O"

As in "Original"

Most people , and I am certainly guilty of this as well, tend to write an original post based on an article they read or a show they saw and include links to videos or text (again, I'm guilty of this in the last hour)
to further prove or help their point.

You did none of this.

Your post is lucid, well thought out and thought provoking, and if I may add, bloody well spot on.

Excellent.

Really well done.

This sort of thing removes the SUCK from DU in a big way.

Kudos.

[marym625]

86. Wow. Thank you very much

It surely is not my best writing effort. In fact my mom, a Professor of English, would have been very disappointed

Thank you very much. I really appreciate this

[malaise]

85. Imperial powers rarely have that fear

but you raise some good questions because the hypocrisy is breath-taking.

[marym625]

87. Thank you, malaise.

I think so. It's the blatant disregard for human life that astounds me.

[Lurks Often]

88. We already do nothing, just look at North Korea

and while North Korea is perhaps the most prominent example, there are other countries around the world who treat their citizens far worse then here.

As others have said, your OP is absurd and mostly shows how unaware you are that there are many other countries where conditions for it's citizens are far worse then the U.S.

[marym625]

89. We already do nothing about North Korea?

If you think that I suggest you do some research.

So how other countries treat their citizens is the yardstick for measuring how we should treat ours? That's ridiculous and wrong.

If you have no problem with the issues I bought up and the further problems others here have, you are part of the problem.

Thank you for your response.

[Lurks Often]

90. So what are YOU doing to fix things other then posting here?

Because for damn sure you and I and all of us have voted for and will vote again for at least one politician who believes things are just fine the way they are right now.

And no, we haven't started a war in North Korea, Myanmar (Burma), Pakistan or any number of other countries that oppress their citizens, if they are not outright slaughtering them.

No, this country isn't perfect and there are things that need to be fixed, but that doesn't change that your OP is absurd

[marym625]

92. Thank you for asking.

Except for this last midterm election, I have been a volunteer for a democratic candidate in every election since I was 7 years old. My first letter, with an attached petition with over 1000 signatures that I personally collected going door to door, was sent to my representative and published in a local paper, for the passage of the ERA, was when I was 12. I helped organize the first and second Chicago protests against the Iraq war. I continue to join protests against police brutality and equal rights. I volunteer every year for different organizations for PRIDE. I write and call my representatives and Senators on issues that are important. In fact, I just left another message at Senator Durbin's office in DC about the militarization of the police and asking what he plans to do about it.

Once the candidates finally announce for the presidential primary, I will decide if I will volunteer for one of them or for Tammy Duckworth.

Is that enough? Or do you want more?

[Lurks Often]

94. No, but don't expect Durbin to do anything about militarization of the police

Both parties are ok with it and besides that's a state level issue.

[marym625]

95. I disagree

The militarization of the police is 100% a federal issue. And from the conversation I had with the Durbin employee, Senator Durbin agrees.

The rest of the issues surrounding this problem, except perhaps the local prosecutor being the one to indict an officer, may have to remain at the state level. I do think that the federal government can, at the very least, be involved in every murder by a cop. Not necessarily just plain old, every day brutality, but murder. Most specifically when the victim is unarmed.