Judge Rules MTA Must Run ‘Killing Jews Is Worship’ Ad on Buses, Subways

[Surya Gayatri]

A New York judge ruled today that the Metropolitan Transit Authority — a.k.a. NYC’s public transit — must run a pro-Israel group’s controversial ads, widely considered to be anti-Jihad, that could allegedly incite violence against Jewish people.

According to the New York Times, Judge John G. Koeltl said that the ad, commissioned by the American Freedom Defense Initiative, was protected speech and could therefore run on MTA property (as long as the MTA does not appeal). “While the court is sensitive to the M.T.A.’s security concerns, the defendants have not presented any objective evidence that the ‘Killing Jews advertisement’ would be likely to incite imminent violence,” he wrote.



“The defendants underestimate the tolerant quality of New Yorkers, and overestimate the potential impact of these fleeting advertisements,” he added.

Ah, right. The ads in question, which will be displayed on buses and in subway stops, will look like this:



Ad saying 'Killing Jews is worship' will not be banned from New York buses: http://t.co/o7rVOxcuOc pic.twitter.com/GJ067FZBls

— Christian Today (@ChristianToday) April 22, 2015

Read more: http://www.mediaite.com/online/judge-rules-mta-must-run-killing-jews-is-worship-ad-on-buses-subways/
__________________________

First Amendment absurdity. Such incendiary language would NEVER be allowed in French public spaces.

[guillaumeb]

1. Are you a believer in free speech, or only acceptable speech?

Free speech is not an absurdity. Speech is either free or not.

It is unlawful to burn the tricouleur in France, or write a parody of La Marseillaisse. Not so in the US. Where do you stand?

[Surya Gayatri]

6. Sorry, the concept of freedom of expression is always relative.

Time, place, culture, circumstances.

How about child pornography and 'snuff' films, par exemple?

[guillaumeb]

8. sex with a minor is illegal. But the age of majority varies by country.

Much the same as incitement, also a prohibited activity. As to snuff films, depictions of violent death are commonplace in the film industry. War porn is everywhere.

But when political speech is deemed illegal, where does the censorship end?

What were/are your feelings about Charlie Hebdo and the vicious anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim speech?

[Surya Gayatri]

15. Just as certain language and rhetoric is considered

unacceptably incendiary in some places and not in others.

Personally, I do NOT consider an ad talking of killing any person or group as simple 'political posturing'.

It is HATE SPEECH, and should be curtailed.

Charlie Hebdo was not plastered on the side of cross-town buses.

[guillaumeb]

22. You are correct. Charlie Hebdo's racist nonsense was not

plastered on the side of a bus. It was displayed on news stands everywhere. The racist speech of Charlie Hebdo is echoed by Marine Le Pen, the leader of the FN, when she talks about "the essential French character of the Republic". One of the essential characteristics of the Republics has been anti-Semitism and prejudice against Arabs, especially North African Arabs of Algerian descent.

Marine Le Pen's father is Jean-Marie Le Pen, a pied-noir from Algeria and well know fascist.

As to the HATE SPEECH of the message, Pamela Geller, the person behind the ads, is a Jewish columnist who writes for the Jerusalem Post. She is trying to incite more anti-Muslim hatred.

[Surya Gayatri]

25. We know 'la charmante' Marine and her 'papa ours' very well, thanks.

Are you in France, guillaume? I am.

Charlie is/was an equal-opportunity offender, whose readership at the time was something like 50,000 for all of France. No-one on their editorial staff is racist - they are social satirists.

The exposure of a 1m x 50cm kiosk poster is in no way comparable to a 2m x 1m billboard on the side of a crosstown bus that covers 100s of miles in a day.

[guillaumeb]

36. Quebecois par naissance, mais j'habite aux EU.

I would disagree with the "social satirist" characterization of the editors. If one repeats racist language and reproduces racial stereotype in cartoon format one is a racist.

My opinion, of course. A bill board is seen by thousands, but the magazine was seen by millions and many images were reproduced worldwide.

What did you think of the "touchez-pas a nos allocs" cartoon? Racist stereotype or cutting edge satire?

[Surya Gayatri]

41. On the knife edge, but I'll wager that if you asked the

editors and cartoonists about their personal opinions on the topic, they are as 'gauchiste' as as Georges Marchais (if you remember him).



Bad taste, but 'raciste'?

[guillaumeb]

68. racist in the same way as Reagan was racist

with his constant comments about black welfare queens. Racism is not confined to the right.

And the reference to the Boko Haram captives does not excuse the racism.

AMHO, bien sur.

[LanternWaste]

7. Nor an absolute; which is why rational people hold varying opinions on its spectrum.

"Free speech is not an absurdity..."

Nor an absolute; which is why rational people hold varying opinions on its spectrum.

[Rex]

12. How is pushing murder of someone else, freedom of speech?

There has to be a line in the sand.

[Surya Gayatri]

19. ^^^AMEN to that^^^!

[Rex]

28. I can't believe they are going to allow this. nt

nt

[Surya Gayatri]

29. As I said up thread, freedom of expression ad absurdum...

[guillaumeb]

21. you are confusing propaganda with reality

Pamela Geller is behind this ad campaign. She is a well know right wing loudmouth who pushes a "hate all Arabs' agenda.

From Geller's website:
“You do great work. You are a hero.” – Geert Wilders, Dutch MP - See more at: http://pamelageller.com/quotables-from-notables/#sthash.HSWYDm4O.dpuf

Note: Geert Wilders is a Dutch right wing politician notable for his extreme anti-Muslim views.

Also from Geller's website:
“A nationally recognized authority on the threat of radical Islam.” – Rep. Steven King (R-IA) - See more at: http://pamelageller.com/quotables-from-notables/#sthash.HSWYDm4O.dpuf

Note: Steven King is a well know lunatic.

Also from Geller's website:
“A beautiful and articulate speaker and writer who has risen to prominence in the US for her steadfast commitment to exposing the deadly pathologies of Jew-hatred, misogyny and other prejudices inherent to jihadist ideology.” — Caroline Glick - See more at: http://pamelageller.com/quotables-from-notables/#sthash.HSWYDm4O.dpuf

Note: As to Jerusalem Post Columnist Glick, see the link below for some of her ideas
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/12/caroline-palestinian-refugees

[Rex]

27. So how is propaganda calling for the death of Jews, not hate speech?

Again, YES protected by the first amendment...but still it IS hate speech and WILL be seen on public transportation? Propaganda indeed.

[guillaumeb]

38. When anti-Semitic propaganda is paid for by a Jew,

and the propaganda is intended to incite anti-Arab feelings, who is to blame for the feelings? And what are the motives of the poster?

As to hate speech, depictions of sex and written porn is considered as hate speech by many. Should it also be banned? How about hateful speech about religion? Should it also be banned? Where does one stop?

[Rex]

44. I would say imo it needs to stop when it comes to public paid for transportation?

Let her buy her own bus and go around America with her hate speech. How about make her pay for it and not be allowed to use the public system to spread hate speech?

Never said anything about banning it.

[Surya Gayatri]

47. Voilà la bonne réponse ! There's the right answer!

[jberryhill]

51. "Never said anything about banning it"

Since the MTA is run by a government organization, then expecting the government to refuse to treat speech equally is, effectively, "banning" it.

[Rex]

60. Okay so when someone comes along and replaces the word 'Jew' with XYZ

that the government is okay with it on public transportation, I will remember you saying that. My point is that the government should not let itself get used to spread hate speech. I don't remember that also being a given right either.

Why does the government get involved with religion in the first place? I thought there was a separation between Church and State?

[Scootaloo]

61. Especially since the music video being "quoted" never says "Jew"

Rather the word used is المحتل, "occupier." Which whether you like the message or not, does carry a very different meaning.

[Oilwellian]

63. I don't think any political ads

should be on public transportation. You also make a good point about this being religious as well.

[Surya Gayatri]

62. 'Treating speech equally'...well, there's this from Seattle. As LittleBlue so pertinently asks:

Can an attorney explain to me how two apparently contradictory free speech standards can exist simultaneously?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026549079#post49

Court: Anti-Israel ad can be barred from Metro buses


From March 19, 2015


SEATTLE – "ISRAELI WAR CRIMES YOUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK."

Those were the words that sparked huge debate in Seattle back in 2010 and led to a legal battle years in the making.

Now the U.S. Court of Appeals has ruled in a 2-1 decision that Metro Transit was in its legal right to prohibit those words on bus advertisement criticizing Israeli policies toward Palestinians.

[guillaumeb]

69. an interesting, free market solution. I like it.

[Bluenorthwest]

88. Start by asking the religioius clerics who preach that LGBT people should be killed. They do this.

Christian, Muslim in particular, and it is pretty much a daily thing. Church marquees, speeches from elected officials, in fact the 'faith community' uses language so horrific about others that when some gasbag like the Pope 'just' says our rights come from Satan, he is called a great Progressive who must lead Democrats.

[Chan790]

72. I believe...

free speech protections do not extend to obligating any entity to accept a paid ad they object to the content thereof.

[still_one]

78. Do you believe if there was an anti-Christian ad on a public transit, it would be treated the same

way?

[guillaumeb]

84. In the US, no, it would not be run.

But Muslims seem to be "acceptable targets" for hate speech. Again though, as I said up thread, Geller is deliberately posting this message to incite hatred for Muslims.

[still_one]

89. I think you are right

[immoderate]

2. Somewhere, I see 'hate speech' in this.

What could go wrong?

--imm

[Surya Gayatri]

4. No kidding...

Absolutely unacceptable.

And, guess whose smart idea it is?

That raging anti-Arab/Muslim, Pamela Geller.

[Scurrilous]

87. Hate speech from Pam Geller?

Back in her littlegreenfootballs days (she posted as Atlas Shrugs), her pet name for Muslims was 'oil ticks.'

Nice lady...




LGF meetup. ROFL

http://pamelageller.com/2005/04/little_green_fo.html/

[appal_jack]

3. For a freedom to be meaningful, it must extend to both the absurd and the extreme.

I support the First Amendment as written: an absolute freedom. Courts in the US have already circumscribed rights of free speech more than I would prefer (or imho, the Constitution allows). No need to circumscribe it further.

-app

[Surya Gayatri]

5. In nations where this kind of incendiary language has caused wars costing millions of lives,

your mileage may vary.

[appal_jack]

83. How many of those nations had robust free speech protections prior to said tragedies?

I don't think that Rwanda or the Balkans were known for press freedoms prior to the tragedies that unfolded in those areas.

The US has had a remarkable 200+ year history where press freedom has always been the ideal, even if we have strayed from honoring it during certain dark times. Incendiary language can be countered with better language.

-app

[surrealAmerican]

9. How much money does the MTA bring in from advertising on busses and trains?

... and how much do they spend on lawsuits based on accepting/rejecting controversial ads?

There should come a point at which it will cost less to just not have any ads.

[Surya Gayatri]

11. Sounds like a plan - or they could adopt the French method of mediation...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026469109

'A concert billboard for the benefit of Eastern Christians was refused by the advertising authority of the Paris metro. Reason given: the "principle of neutrality of a public service." And, political associations are up in arms.'

The advertising 'conseil' of the RATP, composed of all political stripes, has one sacrosanct rule:

True 'liberté d'expression', means NOBODY gets to spout their screed in public places.

[Oktober]

10. That's an odd way you phrased it...

Shouldn't we expect all of the civilized world to be anti-jihad?

[Surya Gayatri]

13. Guess I should have rolled out this thing again for the sarcasm-challenged...

[cali]

14. I want to see ads on NCY buses that say "Pamela Geller is a hateful bigot"

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/profiles/pamela-geller

[Surya Gayatri]

17. Now, that would be interesting. Do you think the judge

would find in the ad owner's favor?

[davidpdx]

76. Fuck yeah

I'd chip in for it

[Capt. Obvious]

16. Hamas MTV?

They don't even play music videos anymore.

[frylock]

32. I sure do miss Yo! Hamas MTV Raps

[snooper2]

85. LOL

MTV RapPakamera Mefisto 2006 Borixon Projekt Hamas

[Dr. Strange]

73. I miss the game shows, like Remote Control Detonator.

[Capt. Obvious]

75. My favorite category was Dead Or Israeli

[KamaAina]

18. Somebody needs to get to work on those

like this fine example from SF:

[Surya Gayatri]

20. Somebody will see to it...but why allow the public square to be polluted

with this kind of dreck in the first place?

[Comrade Grumpy]

30. It's that darned First Amendment.

We fought a similar battle (and won) over placing pro-marijuana legalization ads on the DC Metro.

[Surya Gayatri]

45. But, advertising in favor of pot legalisation is NOT hate speech.

It does not single out a race, religion or ethnic group as a target.

[Comrade Grumpy]

52. The First Amendment doesn't have a "hate speech" exception.

And our courts have been loathe to limit it.

[Surya Gayatri]

53. Not the case in the nations which lived through the

depradations caused by such 'free speech'.

Id est: Germany, France and most other European countries.

In the European mind, the price of that kind of 'freedom' was simply too high.

[Comrade Grumpy]

64. I hear you, but that's not how it is here.

[Surya Gayatri]

67. Major cultural difference between the no-holds-barred

New World and the Old World, which has literally seen it all--seen the war and desolation that imprudent invective can engender.

[951-Riverside]

23. Good.

Groups like Hamas and ISIS need to be exposed for the racist monsters that they are.

They are literally the reincarnation of the German Nazis.

Such incendiary language would NEVER be allowed in French public spaces.

That's France. This is America.

[Surya Gayatri]

26. Sorry? Are you bringing up some jingoistic, 'Murca, fuck yeah!!!!!

reference to the French 'surrender monkeys' of RW lore?



Or, have I misinterpreted?

And, you apparently champion the actions of Pamela Geller, who is behind this blatantly anti-Muslim dreck?

Allllrrriiiighty then, just so we're clear.

[951-Riverside]

34. I like how you avoided everything I said and focused on icons

...or maybe you don't think groups like ISIS and Hamas are racist monsters.

[Surya Gayatri]

39. And, all Muslims are not Hamas or ISIS sympathizers

as the appalling ad campaign would have the public believe.

ISIS is most certainly montrous. Whether they are motivated by racism or religious zealotry is another question.

Hamas are not so much racist as politically extreme. They have arisen in response to total intranigence on the part of their Israeli interlocutors.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/confused-hamas-rockets-war-gaza-plus-israeli-occupation-lawful-versus-unlawful-war-israel-illegal-weapons-targeting-hospitals.html

What is Hamas? Do they threaten Israel?

Hamas is a political organization that won the most recent Palestinian elections in 2006 (new elections planned for 2014); called “completely honest and fair” by President Carter. Historically, Hamas was initially encouraged and supported by Israel in an effort to divide Palestinian government from unified voice in having a two-state peace between Israel and Palestine. However, peaceful coexistence with Israel is what Hamas proposes (and here), including a 10-year truce.

Americans receive rhetoric that Hamas threatens destruction of Israel, but without substantiation of this damning claim.

[951-Riverside]

40. Where did I say anything about "All Muslims"? Go ahead point it out.

And don't try to edit your subject after the fact.

I don't give a damn about anything else you have to say, I want to quote where I said anything about "all muslims" because that is a very serious claim to make against me.

Go ahead.

[Surya Gayatri]

42. Please read more closely:

And, all Muslims are not Hamas or ISIS sympathizers as the appalling ad campaign would have the public believe.

Where did I say anything about you?

[951-Riverside]

43. Stop dodging my question, I don't give a damn about anything else you have to say.

I'm going to ask you again to quote where I was talking about "all Muslims".

Do it.

[Surya Gayatri]

46. Do it yourself, since you persist in putting words into my text which aren't there.

[Comrade Grumpy]

31. You don't know the meaning of "literally," do you?

[951-Riverside]

37. Ooops! I also said "reincarnation"...

...which is nothing more than a religious based concept that is not supported by facts or science.

Let me correct that.

Groups like Hamas and ISIS need to be exposed for the racist monsters that they are.

They are literally the reincarnation of the German Nazis.

These groups and their supporters seek to exterminate the Jewish race/religion just like the German Nazis did in the 1940's.

Yeah, I know "Godwin's Law" says not I'm permitted to bring up the extermination of 6 million jews in Nazi Germany but you know what? Fuck Godwin's Law.

[frylock]

33. teh NAZIS!!12

[tishaLA]

24. If I were the judge, I think I'd have to make the same decision

Last edited Wed Apr 22, 2015, 05:48 PM - Edit history (1)

based on pretty well-established free speech issues. As a person, I think it's deplorable, though, and I'd encourage MTA riders to engage in their own free speech by defacing the ads in every possible way

EDITED to change the initial phrase, which said, "As a judge, I think...." The dangling modifier made it seem I was suggesting I was a judge but I am not.

[Surya Gayatri]

56. Here's some interesting input by LittleBlue. As a judge how would

you have found in this case?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026549079#post49

Court: Anti-Israel ad can be barred from Metro buses


From March 19, 2015


SEATTLE – "ISRAELI WAR CRIMES YOUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK."

Those were the words that sparked huge debate in Seattle back in 2010 and led to a legal battle years in the making.

Now the U.S. Court of Appeals has ruled in a 2-1 decision that Metro Transit was in its legal right to prohibit those words on bus advertisement criticizing Israeli policies toward Palestinians.

[tishaLA]

65. I think the appeals court was wrong nt

[Surya Gayatri]

66. Thanks for answering. Might this go all the way to the SCOTUS?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. More about Pamela Geller

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela_Geller

Together with Robert Spencer, she co-founded the Freedom Defense Initiative and Stop Islamization of America.[10] These organizations were labeled hate groups by UK government officials, who barred Geller's entry into the UK in 2013.[8] She and Spencer co-authored the book The Post-American Presidency: The Obama Administration's War on America in 2010.[4]

Geller is listed as an Anti-Muslim extremist in the Southern Poverty Law Center's Extremist Files.[11]

She published a letter from one of her readers saying that Malcolm X had impregnated Ann Dunham, Barack Obama's mother. After the theory was posted, the conspiracy theory gained notoriety and led Keith Olbermann to label her "the worst person in the world" during the eponymous segment of Countdown with Keith Olbermann.[17] Geller later said this was never her view.[15][91]

Controversial postings on Atlas Shrugs include:[95][96] Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan in a mock-up photograph in a Nazi uniform,[1][97] a video suggesting that some Muslims have sex with goats, and a doctored photo showing President Obama urinating on an American flag.[15] The Guardian claimed Geller defends former Serbian president Slobodan Milošević and denied the existence of Serbian concentration camps of the 1990s.[67] She denies supporting Milošević but has expressed skepticism of some accounts of the camps.[98]

[davidpdx]

77. I love Cali's suggestion up thread

Expose her for what she is.

[LittleBlue]

49. Court: Anti-Israel ad can be barred from Metro buses

From March 19, 2015

SEATTLE – "ISRAELI WAR CRIMES YOUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK."

Those were the words that sparked huge debate in Seattle back in 2010 and led to a legal battle years in the making.

Now the U.S. Court of Appeals has ruled in a 2-1 decision that Metro Transit was in its legal right to prohibit those words on bus advertisement criticizing Israeli policies toward Palestinians.

The debate started in 2010 when the Seattle Mideast Awareness Campaign (SeaMAC), a non-profit organization who said its goal is to bring attention to Israeli-Palestinian relations, wanted to buy ad space to run on 12 Metro buses for four weeks, beginning in the last week of 2010, opposing the United States government's financial support for Israel.

http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/seattle/2015/03/19/court-anti-israel-ad-can-be-barred-from-metro-buses/24995497/

Can an attorney explain to me how two apparently contradictory free speech standards can exist simultaneously?

[Surya Gayatri]

50. Good find, LittleBlue. Hate speech of whatever ilk

Last edited Wed Apr 22, 2015, 05:25 PM - Edit history (1)

should not be allowed in spaces subsidised by tax-dollars.

Indeed, 'how can two apparently contradictory free speech standards exist simultaneously?'

[arcane1]

54. Funny how that works, isn't it?

[metalbot]

80. They exist simultaneously in two different federal court districts

The 9th (West Coast) and 2nd (East Coast) federal court districts can have polar opposite rulings on issues, and those are not resolved until SCOTUS agrees to hear the case.

[Jim Lane]

86. They even exist simultaneously on the same court

The decision in the Seattle case was by a panel of three appellate judges, who divided 2-1. I personally agree with the dissenter, and with the NYC judge, based on my limited knowledge of the cases.

If you get deeply into the facts, you might find that the two decisions are consistent. For example, the news report of the Seattle case gives me the impression that the Seattle public agency may have established a pre-existing rule barring ads from either side on certain subject areas. Subject-matter restriction raises different First Amendment issues. It would obviously be illegal for a public agency to say "Democrats and Republicans can place political ads, but we'll reject ads from wackos like the Libertarian Party or the Green Party." On the other hand, if the agency said "No campaign ads, period, from anyone, for or against any candidate," that would be much easier to defend against a First Amendment challenge.

Something like that may have been at play in the Seattle case. It would be conceivable for one judge (or SCOTUS) to rule in favor of the ads in one case and against the ads in the other, if some fairly subtle difference in the facts turned out to be crucial to the First Amendment issue.

[stevenleser]

55. Oh, joy. I have to see this stupid crap around the city now?

Nice.

[Surya Gayatri]

58. More of Pamela Geller's handiwork! Enjoy!

[stevenleser]

57. Just tweeted a response to her...

"Gee, thanks for subjecting me and other New Yorkers to that ugly message"

On Edit: https://twitter.com/stevenleser/status/590981147234062336

[Surya Gayatri]

59. Well done. Not that she'll pay the least bit of attention.

She's only interested in rousing her racist base.

[tritsofme]

70. People should be outraged by Hamas' genocidal fantasy

Not trying to suppress the free speech rights of the American who further exposes Hamas as the terrorist scum they are.

[LiberalElite]

71. As an NYC resident, I expect these ads to get ye olde vandalism treatment -

to the point that no one will be able to read them. Wouldn't that be a shame.

[Surya Gayatri]

74. Good, waste her and her rabid followers' money.

May this racist bilge soon disappear under an assault of sharpie 'art'.

[fadedrose]

79. For people who would not dream of killing Jews

or anybody for that matter, the signs are unnecessary.

The trouble is that they draw attention to Jews, and are in the face of Jihadists, and the word "worship" is enough to muster up their enthusiasm for killing a Jew. Stirring the pot is what it is.

I don't think it's a good idea for the Jews, who in these times need a lower profile, or the Jihadists, who need no encouragement.

You could say the same for Christians who are now targets along with the Jews..

[Surya Gayatri]

81. 'Stirring the pot is what it is.' That's what hate speech is intended to do.

[fadedrose]

82. No one will benefit

and I don't like the idea of causing more killings with ads like this that will make those Islamists angry who are not Jihadists. It will just cause more fear on both sides of the issue, and people who are afraid do rash things.

Time would be better spent by pushing the truth that both groups share the same history.

[treestar]

90. It says pro-Israel group

So then they are quoting an Islamic terrorist to make them look bad, apparently. Odd that they do not see the potential for it being taken literally by someone out there.