Looting and violence do NOT solve anything

[ram2008]

And are not justifiable at all.

Not sure why such a common sense idea is now even debatable and controversial on these forums. Can we stop pretending that these rioters vandalizing and robbing their own communities/stores and homes are doing something that will change things for the better? It won't; never has and never will.

[gollygee]

1. No, but what do people expect?

Do you expect police to attack and kill African Americans in city after city, over and over and over again, but for people to never get so upset that their anger explodes and they break stuff?

It is not productive. It is also not surprising.

[Takket]

49. militiamen were pointing assault rifles at Federal agents...

because the feds wanted Cliven Bundy to pay for the grass his cows ate...

so like you I'm really in the "what do you expect" corner, and I really don't want to hear the "only blacks do this stuff" argument I'm sure fox news is spewing right now, either. know why whites don't riot much? BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS SHIT.

[DetlefK]

103. "Know why whites don't riot much? BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS SHIT."

That sums it up perfectly. Thank you.

[Marrah_G]

152. And when they do it's because their sports team lost...or won.

[Sparhawk60]

113. When Whites Protest

They tend to be armed, in some cases better than the police.

[bravenak]

2. They should just sit around and wait for their own "rough ride."

[ram2008]

4. Instead of sitting around, they should be doing productive things

Which don't involve setting fire to a new senior center that the church just set up, or robbing the mall.

[bravenak]

6. How will that stop police murder and the inevitable cover up?

I say, if the police stop murdering our men, the riots will never happen. Fuck a mall. Live matter more than property.

[ram2008]

12. Using the political process/civil disobedience works

Stealing and looting and destroying your economy don't. All rioting and looting does is get the entire population of the USA on the side of the police because they don't want to see the place they live end up like Baltimore.

Lives are directly connected to property; how can you not see that? By destroying property you're destroying any potential investment in that community as well as the funds that were already invested there. You're destroying peoples jobs, you're destroying people's savings- their homes, you're destroying people's future's and yes- you are destroying their lives.

[bravenak]

16. Riots work better than the political process.

They HAVE democrats in office who run the city just likexa republican with broken windows policies and ratcheting ip the drug war. Did those folks vote for a mukti generational racist ass drug war that gives cops the right to fuck with any and everybody that passes them looking "suspicious"? No.
This is systematic and their DEMOCRATIC politicians are drugg warrior assholes.
Destroying property is one thing, trying to values that property higher than their lives is exactly why we have riots. I was in the Rodney Kings riots. Tht riots got mutha fuckers to listen and cops to stop thinking thry coukd just come to the hood and beat the living shit out of us for fun. You ain't lived that life, otherwise you'd know that riots work.
After the riot, we got all new better stores and cops that were scared t just beat on innocent folks all public like. I didn't see cops in the hood for a couple of years. There was no increase in crime, and crime has dropped steadily since.

[ram2008]

21. They won't work

Businesses will move out, jobs will be lost, money will move out of the county, and that part of Baltimore will be the new Detroit. Opportunity out the window; it's basic economics. Congratulations, that's what rioting gives you.

[bravenak]

24. Won't happen.

B more ain't detriot. It's location make it a valuable place to rebuild. 2 different situations. Like I said downthread, we burned the shitty old roach infested buildings and got better shit in LA. Baltimore is an old and important area. It will survive and thrive. Regardless of riots. I'd be less worried about riots and more worried that they start quietly taking out bad cops on their own.

[ram2008]

29. Umm, you need security and stability for investment

The areas of Baltimore where rioting is occurring now will lose their business to the safer parts of the Baltimore. While not all of Baltimore is expendable to the powers that be, the poorer parts certainly are.

The only people these riots are scaring are people who own businesses in the area. And they will move, and these poorer areas will become more and more desolate. There's no reason to stay there if they already know the people who live their don't respect them enough that they're willing to burn it to the ground whenever they get angry about an issue that they weren't even involved in.

FYI in a survey of individuals affected by the LA riots 77% said they felt economically worse off.

[bravenak]

33. How you know that once the dust clears, things won't improve?

[ram2008]

41. Simple risk vs reward.

"Hmm, should I open my business in a neighborhood that was just torched by the local population for no reason and where the people have no money or consideration for one another.

Or should I go to the town next door which still has a functioning community, people with money, and respect for law and order?"

[bravenak]

42. The reward outweighs the risk. Period.

[ram2008]

48. The only reward coming from these riots...

Will be a shift in tide in public opinion against the people rioting, a bunch of locked up young african americans who will have their futures destroyed, and a loss of businesses and jobs for their community.. Thanks to vandals and criminals who think stealing and lighting things on fire will somehow create positive change.

You keep pointing to the LA riots, but a better example, modern example would be Ferguson. How many lives destroyed, how much money lost, and for what? What was gained from those riots?

If these people rioting care so much about change, why aren't they on the steps of city hall instead of at the mall carrying out garbage bag full of goodies?

[bravenak]

50. They already have the bad shit you just named.

So, basically nothing will change.
What we got from the riots were investigations into Rampart. Convictions of some cops. A gang war that had lasted for 20 years, cooled down with the blood/crip alliance. Gang violence is down and crime is down. Cops stopped coming in to the neighborhood and beating peopke because they were scared. If you look at the areas that actually burned, you'll see that much was built back up better. We got community policing in many neighborhood instead of cops manufacturing crime to get arrests. Better than it was. They don't want anothr riot. Because they were told that next time the 'good' heighborhoods will go up in smoke. And we stopped giving two shits about white flight.

[ram2008]

56. Again, this is not 92

This is 2015.

[bravenak]

60. I have a calendar.

[ram2008]

65. Do you have a map?

Because it seems the rioters can't seem to tell the difference between where the laws are made and where power is (City Hall/ The police department etc) and where their own neighbors are (the local CVS, mall).

If they're trying to affect change they should at least go to a place where the presumed culprit is and demand action instead of robbing their local convenience store.

[bravenak]

71. I was the winner of the geography bee in 8th grade.

I have lots of maps, even of Westeros.
You are thinking that a riot will be rational. Won't happen. It's about expesssing pent up frustration not attacking particular people. The system needs to be fixed. Then the riots will not need to happen to get attention to an issue. Riots are a last resort. Should have arrested those cops for the death of Freddie Gray. Now, this is what we get when we allow cops to kill unarmed black men with impunity.

[ram2008]

75. Well I agree with you on one thing

That Game of Thrones is a great series/book, and it's cool that you have a map of Westeros! .

[bravenak]

78. I love it too much.

Best books ever!

[ohheckyeah]

110. And the same

shit is happening to black men and youth. It's been going on for decades.

[Egnever]

86. Already has happened.

Your grasp of reality is lacking here.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2015/04/_1968_baltimore_do_the_riots_after_martin_luther_king_jr_s_assassination.html

The conclusion we came to after our study was that, in ’68, the physical damage was not irreversible. But the perception of Baltimore that outsiders had—that Baltimore was a dangerous place, that it was a place where you’d never want to live—that was an effect of the uprisings of 1968. And that, more than the physical damage, had a huge effect on Baltimore for decades. In the interim, we’ve had Homicide: Life on the Street, and we’ve had The Wire, and the way the world sees Baltimore is based in these violent images. Meanwhile, on the street, living in Baltimore—you know that Baltimore is a wonderful place, and it has so many positive things going for it, and there are so many people here who deeply love their city, and are just so sad tonight to see what’s happening to it. That’s what I’m nervous about—more violent images, more reasons for people to stereotype us.

[bravenak]

88. My grasp on reality is perfect.

Thank you for your concern about my mental health. I'll let you folks decide what black people should do to end police violence. You must have solutions that you are going to do the work towards realizing. Unless you jyst want to sit around judging and doing absolutely nothing to help but whine about riots.
See, in my world, the police violence leads to riots, not th other way around. Fix the causes that lead to riots, then riots won't come. Telling people they are doing it wrong from your ivory tower ain't helping shit.

[Egnever]

90. You folks?

WTF?

Sadly it has no effect on the reality that the last time Baltimore Rioted it had long lasting damaging effects on the community. Contrary to the it wont happen all will be rebuilt only better nonsense you are trying to peddle here.

Your world appears to be the world of a child where you break your own toys when you get mad and somehow think that will get you the attention you want. Unfortunately what happens instead is that sort of behavior only ends up hurting the one who did it.

Get out march in the streets camp at city hall I will camp right next to you or stand there with you. You want to destroy your neighborhood count me out. The cops all go home to their nice houses and you are left standing in shit. No thanks.

[bravenak]

91. Folks that care more about the riots than the lives lost.

Folks that say'your doing it wrong' but offer no practical solutions.
You know nothing of my poor black inner city world. Nothing. I was born in South Central and lived from there to east side long beach, gangs and all. People lose hope and this is what we get. And it scares the shit out of those cops and those peopke sitting nice and tight in their castles. Because they know if there are no solutions, it will be their homes up in flames like the lives of black youth are up in flames.

[Egnever]

92. That whole line is bullshit

"Folks that care more about the riots than the lives lost."

Pure bullshit.

One does not exclude the other.

And you dont know anything about me either. I lived in the hood for a good portion of my life I have friends who still live in the hood.
Hell I am not that far from it now. I know well the hopelessness there.

Burning the white castles would have been a choice I understand and though I would still disagree with it it would make a lot more sense. Burning your own neighborhood down doesn't scare anyone in any white castle. They dont fear you burning your own stuff why would they? CVS can certainly eat the loss.

But they also wont be putting their money back there..... For years.

The solution is simple I said it above organize protest camp the fucking capitol not for a day for weeks for months till it gets done.

Very few people in this country want people shot by the police. The majority do not want to see this kind of thing happen ever forget the appalling rate it does happen. It is an easy fight to win.

Hey look heres some folks doing it!



There's even a few "you folk" there standing with them ...Man they had some clout...Aw well fuck it lets burn this shit down.

Funny thing is tomorrow those "You folks" will still be there ready to protest with you. Difference being of course your neighborhood will be burnt down and theirs wont.

[bravenak]

93. You do realize that there have been protest for six months and the killings keep happening.

Not working. Sometime folks in power have to fear violence will come their way if they don't start fixing some shit.
I don't care about broken windows or burned buildings. I care about broken necks and murdered men. And I care that my people will stop getting shamed into silence. If white folks had been dealing with the ravism and police violence in the same way that black people are, there would be no Baltimore left to burn. Hell, they rioted over taxes on tea and representation in government. Peaceful protests have not been working. Calling for peaceful protests is all well and good, but if it changes nothing, it's just a parade. Power cedes nothing without a demand and sonetimes that demand includes violence.

The police have cause every major riot in my lifetime. They kill kill kill beat beat beat oppress oppress oppress rape rape rape, and nothing happens to them. Then shit comes to a head. And boom, riot! Everytime, it's the sam shit, with all those peaceful protests in between. Time to end police violence. End the war on black men, and you'll prevent the riots from happening at all.

[Egnever]

95. Of course its working

Change happens slowly but already there is change.

More and more precincts are requiring body cameras more and more cops are getting fired for abusive behavior. Of course it cant happen quick enough but the idea it isn't working is ludicrous.

As is the idea you will ever end police violence. History is rife with proof that will never happen. Man is a violent beast.

Hopefully what we can get is more accountability and the tech we have today will help that immensely and already is. I am not sure what the statistics are on police violence but I would be seriously surprised if it was on the rise. What has happened is we are now better able to catch them with the technology available today and not only catch them but broadcast the offenses.

There have been a whole lot of riots apparently http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots

I am not sure you can point to the police in all of them.

[bravenak]

97. It is not working to end the violence. We are just finding out about it in undeniable ways.

People don't have another fifty years to wait for this shit to end. We have been marching and praying and waiting for years. Hundreds of them.
What I see is, crime is down, police are getting even more abusive even though crime is down. How long would white people wait for things to change if they lived under Black supremacy? How nonviolent would they be? There would be no cities to burn if the shoe was on that foot. None. Black folks have been very patient. No more waiting. Shit will get fixed or there will be no shit TO fix.

[romanic]

99. Forget it.

You can't reason with someone whose pure emotion and unwilling to listen. I totally agree with all your points Engraver and yes Change is a coming.

[mythology]

155. 6 whole months?

The Civil Rights movement lasted 14 years. The protests in Baltimore turned violent after a week.

But also those protests have been largely localized and about individual incidents. There hasn't been a viable leadership developed that could speak for the larger interests. Even if there was, it undercuts the premise that the police violence is unwarranted when the people protesting violence are using and not even in self defense. We've gone from John Lewis getting his skull fractured and continuing peaceful protests for years afterwards, to people rioting after a week when they weren't being attacked.

[bravenak]

156. Six months and fourhundred years of peacful protest.

When was the last time you had to protest acts of institutional racism against yourself and those who look like you? It's been fourhundred years and six months, how much longer?
I suppose we should just march and get beat and fire hosed and policed dogged until you think it's been long enough? How many years of racism and poverty and police viokence are you willing to take while singing 'We shall overcome' watching your sons become targets of the system? I think it's been long enough. Ain't no amount of marching and praying going to work if it hasn't worked yet!
Just let me know how much abuse and fear for the lives of your family and how many indignitites you ard willing to put up with all day everyday while singing and marching. How many cheecks you have left to turn when the cops break your sons neck. Let me know how much suffering we deserve while marching quietly and peacefully...

[ohheckyeah]

104. There is

some justice in those sitting in their castles feeling what the black youth feel - fear. If I remember correctly, anger is a secondary emotion to fear. It SUCKS to live in fear.

[bravenak]

106. Yes there is. A small bit of justice.

Living in fear changes people.

[ohheckyeah]

109. Fear is no way to

live, it's existence.

[bravenak]

111. Yep. Hence the desperate acts and rioting.

We need to improve the lives of people in America. We have to. Nothing else will work.

[ohheckyeah]

112. Agree.

Time for the real thugs, the cops and lying politicians be held accountable.

[Egnever]

136. The idea the people in the white castles are afraid is silly

They were not touched by this. They have insurance against this sort of thing. You don't scare them in the least when you burn down your own neighborhood. I find the fact that somehow people think those in the white castles are some how scared by this so utterly naive I find it difficult not to just laugh in the face of anyone who posts such nonsense.

These riots have not affected them in the least. All it has done is entrenched the idea that those neighborhoods are a lost cause not to be bothered with and I would be willing to bet glee in some people that these neighborhoods are hastening their own destruction.

Long past time to get past the idea that burning your own stuff scares anyone but your neighbors. You want the people who sit in the white towers scared. Start burning their neighborhood. Of course that won't happen cause the people doing the looting are cowards taking advantage of an opportunity to cause mayhem. An opportunity they will never have in the neighborhood where the white towers are located.

[ohheckyeah]

137. It doesn't have to be in

their neighborhoods for them to be afraid. It's the loss of control that scares them.

[Egnever]

139. You are kidding yourself

There was never a loss of control where the white towers were concerned. None of the damage made it past the city limits. It was completely contained the whole time.

I am certainly not suggesting that people should go out and start burning down neighborhoods other than their own. That is folly. But if you want the white towers scared you need to target them and not yourself. They will be quite content to watch you burn your own home to the ground.

[ohheckyeah]

140. I worked long enough

in DC and other areas for federal law enforcement to know loss of control of the people is chilling to them. All you have to do is listen to hear the fear - "we will have control and peace." Control of the masses is paramount to them. I'm not the one kidding herself.

[Egnever]

144. Guess we will find out in the weeks to come

After the burning is done and the cameras leave. My bet the only change will be the decimated city the rioters have left themselves.

Accompanied by the complete lack of reinvestment to rebuild. One thing I guarantee the white towers will be afraid of is any further investment there.

[ohheckyeah]

145. As long as they can get

insurance they will invest there.

[Egnever]

151. Past events would argue against that

Baltimore was still clawing it's way back from the last riot.

[freshwest]

171. When MLK, Jr. wrote Letter from a Jail, he said the black economy was $30B. Imagine what it is now.

The idea that POC can't make it without 'white' businesses to sustain them is a myth. All they have to do is withdraw their money from the economy and build their own. That's why Tulsa was bombed and the city was destroyed by white people. The black economy was doing well and didn't need them. So they found an excuse to destroy it and take advantage. It was white on black looting and violence.

As to your reply above, about rioting changing things, yes, it does. Only an egocentric view denies that. MLK, Jr. gave the chance for reconciliation. I was alive in those days.

When he was murdered, no matter who pleaded otherwise, the cities burned across the country, every night. It didn't matter what was owned by who, but generally it was white owned business. And sadly, that is what made things change. Fear of an even bigger uprising.

There is no talking people out of it who have nothing to lose. The mother who loves and gives birth to her child - and many of the people in the streets and many in BLM - are women - are sick of having the fruit of their wombs slaughtered like animals in a factory farm of America.

As Balwin said, if this inequality based on race is not addressed it will destroy western civilization with its ideals of individual rights. No one can be bullied out of their humanity by slick words or the gun.

People need to reach out and try to comprehend the infinite pain of black women that has gone on for five hundred years. All it will take a spark, and it will come down on the denialists' heads.

And it won't be pretty, anymore than when northern Europeans who had been enslaved by the Romans came to Rome to loot it and destroy it. I've read that one of the first things those terrible 'barbarians' did, was stop the gladitorial games, the inhuman slaughter of human beings and wild animals for 'sport.'

They were not as barbaric as the Romans had been. And they swept them and their empire off the map, but not out of those in America who fancy themselves aristocrats or wannabe ones.

They will fail if they kept running their mouths and refuse to do the right thing. And balance will be returned. JMHO.

.

[bravenak]

173. I agree. Eloquently stated, as always.

[freshwest]

174. Thanks for the hug, bravenak. It means a lot coming from one who's been tested like you.

[bravenak]

27. It worked before.

Nothing else has. Now the cops are the ones scared. Good. Maybe they'll remember this fear the next time they think about murdering a man for nothing.

Like I said, I WENT THROUGH A RIOT IN 92. THE AREA IS BETTER AND NICER THAT BEFORE WE TORCHED IT. We even got a train line put in near my old place. Fuck money, lives matter more than your stupid economics. We need people to have money. Nothing matters more than your fellow man. Not even your 'valuable' property.

[GGJohn]

32. Yeah?

Tell that to the good people who lost their livelihoods to these criminals.

[bravenak]

35. I repeat. IT WORKED BEFORE!!!!

I lost shit in the riots in LA TOO. I'm doing much better, now. Thanks. Everyone was insured. The businesses are better now.

[GGJohn]

38. IT WORKED BEFORE!!!!

That doesn't mean shit to those that lost their businesses and those that were employed by those businesses.
And this ain't 92, you have no idea if the same thing will happen again.

[bravenak]

44. They'll do better than Freddie Gray.

[GGJohn]

47. Wow, the appeal to emotion.

Now, how about explaining how this helps the owners and employees of those businesses that were destroyed by these criminals?
And you still have no clue if this is going to turn out like 92.

[bravenak]

53. The criminal cops need to stop causing riots then.

[GGJohn]

57. Wrong.

These outside agitators need to stop taking advantage of the good people trying to peacefully change the system.

[bravenak]

59. No, I'm right. Cops need to stop murdering people. That causes riots.

[GGJohn]

63. No, you're not.

The protests were peaceful until the outside agitators came in and took advantage of the good people of Baltimore who were trying to bring attention to the issue of police brutality, now, all that's going to be remembered is the looting and destruction of businesses.

[bravenak]

64. Cops most certainly DO need to stop murdering people.

It causes riots.

[GGJohn]

68. No shit cops need to stop murdering people, no matter what color.

But that still doesn't justify the looting and destruction of those businesses by a bunch of criminals who take advantage of good people peacefully protesting the brutality of police.

[bravenak]

79. Riots don't have justifications, just reasons.

They are not rational.

[GGJohn]

81. Well, we can agree on that aspect. eom.

[ohheckyeah]

105. The fear

the cops and others felt will be remembered if enough damage is done.

[XemaSab]

87. The capitalist powers that be had the old shit cleared out

so they could build new shit. All at rock bottom prices.

Thank you for supporting your capitalist overlords.

Go shopping! Watch more TV! Buy! Buy! Buy!

[bravenak]

89. It is what it is.

If people buy, they will collect the insurance and build.

[ram2008]

34. You are delusional

"Fuck money..."
Two sentences later

"We need people to have money"

Ok, the first step to getting money is to have businesses in the area. Burning them down doesn't help that. This isn't 92.

[bravenak]

55. Not reallly.

I never said the second quote.

[JustAnotherGen]

82. That's true

You never wrote that. People just can't go around making stuff up - unless they are Republicans. Then it's aok.

Say - did you ever hear the joke about the gross guy in the bar who kept hitting on women and getting turned down? He was the joke. That's it. That's the joke.

[bravenak]

85. Thank you.

[Aerows]

96. Here's one from me, too

A lot of DUer's have your back, my friend, myself included. You wrote nothing of the sort, and it's ridiculous how people can pull things out of their *own* butts, then attribute it to somebody else that didn't pull anything like that out of their butt.

Oh, Lord, that is starting to sound weird, isn't it

[bravenak]

98. They like butt pulling.

It's good exercise.

[EX500rider]

146. Did some one else type it then using your account?

"Fuck money, lives matter more than your stupid economics. We need people to have money."

That's a quote from you in post #27...?

[bravenak]

148. We need PEOPLE, to have money.

I missed the comma. Completely changes the meaning. Without people money don't means shit. That's what that means. Punctuation. Sigh.

[EX500rider]

150. No problem, the comma does make a difference.

[seabeyond]

120. this alert bravenak, really pissed me off. the more i went thru the process, the more i thought

Last edited Tue Apr 28, 2015, 02:39 PM - Edit history (1)

about what you posted, from your experience, your reality, .... really damn graciously i think.... the more pissed i got. so much so... i had to walk from computer, working of that yukky feel... to scome back to my computer to see i had not sent out my vote, yet. well. i got the results quickle.

hey.

it really pissed me off. fuck it. i am back to the full word. and why? did i adopt fug? because i was fucking getting posts hid for using the word fuck. they couldnt get me on anything else. i have not had a post hidden since i adopted fug. do we all feel a bit silly, that i have to say fug when really...

i mean, fuck it. it. not a person. the message sent.

On Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:11 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

It worked before.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6578767

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Poster is endorsing the use of violence as a means to an end, which runs counter to TOS stipulations:

"Democratic Underground is an online community for politically liberal people who understand the importance of working within the system to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of political office. Teabaggers, Neo-cons, Dittoheads, Paulites, Freepers, Birthers, and right-wingers in general are not welcome here. Neither are certain extreme-fringe left-wingers, INCLUDING ADVOCATES OF VIOLENT POLITICAL/SOCIAL CHANGE, hard-line communists, terrorist-apologists, America-haters, kooks, crackpots, LaRouchies, and the like."

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Apr 28, 2015, 12:17 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: i think i will "allow" bravenak her voice in her own experience of a POC, on our democratic, progressive, political board. there is no reason to hide this post except to shut her voice down. i have to wonder about the alerter, that as our young black men and boys are being murdered across the nation, that you would have the arrogance, audacity, to tell this woman to shut up. this alert really pisses me off. and the more i think about it, the more pissed off i am.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Hide this BS. Sick of these rants at a progressive site...tell them to go the other site and post this garbage.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: The alerter has convinced me.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

[bravenak]

129. Thank you.

I don't even know wha to say about that alert. So many thoughts, better if I just don't bother. Wow.

[freshwest]

172. Good work by Juror #1. Bravenak isn't promoting, she's explaining. Just like I did. It's hi

part of the historical record of the world and while it sucks, so does the situation that leads up to bad things happening.

They are not unconnected events. The issue is how to stop it at the root and the answer is not tanks, etc.

I mean, like OMG, I don't want to see any of this goin on!

[onenote]

138. The Rodney King riots didn't accomplish squat

Over 50 dead. 3500 plus buildings burned. Despite promises from the political powers to help fund the rebuilding of South LA, most buildings weren't rebuilt, a significant portion of the African American population moved out of South LA and unemployment and income levels in South LA are lower today than tney were at the time of the riots. The biggest changes are demographic, the Latino popoulation is now greater than the African American population. But the overall structural issues remain. And the LA police still commit acts of brutality.

Condemning the riots is not the same as excusing the police brutality that served as a trigger to the riots. Its simply a recognition that rioting doesn't produce positive results for the people whose lives already were tough. The local residents who worked and shopped at the stores destroyed in Baltimore aren't applauding the fact that they have no jobs anymore. And after the punks that raided these stores have eaten the food they took and finished playing with the video games they took, they'll still be unemployed.

So what productive result does rioting produce?

[bravenak]

147. Did you live in the area at the time?

If not, how do you know things are not better? First of all, we were having a big problem with gang violence at the time. After the riots, the killings went down, and now we are at the point in the area where drive by shootings are no happening every other day, the murder rate went down and the crime rate went down. Just with the gang truce alone there was much accomplished. I remember before th riots, cops came into our neighborhood and literally beat the shit out of people in front of their kids, like it was normal. The did it to releive stress or sone shit. After that, they were to scared to come in and do shit like that because they knew that people might fight back. The riots let them know tha they were out numbered.
As far as the businesses. Did you ever shop at the nasty ass ABC market that got burned down? No. You would never shop at those nasty ass stores that smelled like rotting pork with roaches crawling in the Chiccharones. Never. When the market went up in flames, you could hear the rats screaming and see roaches running out. In place of those disgusting shops that we were 'allowed' to have in the hood, we got nice stores like Albertsons. I know cause I lived that life. I was there.
In the empty lot cross Jefferson there was nothing but an old traintrack. Now, there is a light rail station. I see that as better.
The police still commit acts of brutality, that is a systemic problem that needs to be addressed. But if you lived in the hood at the time, you would hav noticed they use more caution than they used to. Most of the shit that burned was crap. Crappy roach filled nasty ass crap. Nobody was sad it burned and nearly none of it was black owned. People wrote black owned on stores for a reason. It worked for the most part where I was. Most of the black owned business was still there. It was interesting to see how few black owned businesses there actually were at the time. And that fact was part of the problem. Those shops were owned by 'privileged' minorities who treated us like shit.

[onenote]

165. The gang truce was very important. And it occurred before the riots.

[bravenak]

166. No dear, it occurred after the riots.

I know cause my cousin who was a blood finally starting talking to the crips in the fam.

[onenote]

167. Wrong. It was worked on for some time and signed April 28, the day before the riots.

http://www.scpr.org/programs/offramp/2012/05/04/26351/forget-the-la-riots-historic-1992-watts-gang-truce/

http://www.danielperlmanlaw.com/blog/2012/05/historic-1992-watts-gang-truce-worked-spread-for-10-years.shtml

I could post a dozen more cites if that's what it takes.

[bravenak]

168. Honey, it had been worked on for YEARS.

I had friends who were twins one a rollin 20's and one from Marvin ave, twins. Had not been in they mama house at the same time. It took the riots to get the truce started. I was out that night. It was a big ass fucking party. Just cause somebody signed a sheet of paper don't mean shit in the hood, you know that, it took till after the riot to get most folks to agree. We still had gangs after that but it was about patrolling the neighborhood. I remember getting jumped in. If there anything I know well it's gangbanging. Marvins, Schoolyard, 40's, 6-0, 9-0, Backstreet, Geer gang, BPS, Bounty Hunters, Hoover(all types of grooves) grapestreet watts, East side Long Beach crip, etc. i know when the truce hapoened cause my cousins started a couple of crews that merged.
Funny how y'll be thinking yo paperwork means shit.

[Harmony Blue]

170. Agreed

I grew up there and I watched the carnage unfold in person....all that happened was the black community was displaced because a lot of business were unable to rebuild and the black communities were shattered. The fabric of the black community never recovered since then, and the latino community came in to fill the void. Especially with the Korean community moving elsewhere from south central.

History repeats itself and we have failed to learn from it sadly.

[KingCharlemagne]

94. Gee, you're so full of good suggestions. What are you doing to make things better? - nt

[ram2008]

117. Not burning down my local neighborhood n/t

[KingCharlemagne]

119. IOW, nothing. Typical - nt

[BronxBoy]

158. LOL.....

If that was the case, the majority of us would be "helping" the situation. Yet things remain the same

[GGJohn]

160. Gee, what are YOU doing to make things better?

Besides sitting behind a keyboard asking others what they're doing.

[Euphoria]

114. What makes you so sure they weren't

, to use your words, doing productive things.

Who is your they"?
Who do you roll into one "they": pastors, doctors, teachers, students, jobless, unemployed executives, blue collar workers, bums, sales people, food servers,...?

And what productive action would you recommend and by whom?
Please employ your knowledge of what it's like to live in Baltimore at this time and through these tough economic, hopeless, anti-people type of government times and be specific as to which they should do what.

Now, speaking metaphorically by using "you" in an attempt to call upon the idea of empathy.....

....if "you" were faced with the reality that cops kill, injure and are the channel for injustice and prison for people like "you" "your" family and friends...what would "you" do....after years and decades and more....and how would "you" respond after years and decades and more to the lack of real response and assistance with this continued violence by the institutions and agencies that wield the power in all aspects of "your" life and that of "your" family and community.

I am asking the metaphorical "you" to Ask "yourself" what you would do in a similar situation.

And then let us know what "you" are going to do to be productive regarding the continued and systematic institutionalization of racial oppression and racism.

You don't have to answer , this is just an attempt to ask people to call upon their empathy for what's going on here.
And to see that no one should live this way and that those in power, usually sitting back in their comfy chairs far removed from any street in any community are very happy for us to argue with ourselves rather than gather focus towards those who have thrived from others suffering.

[brooklynite]

7. How about using the political process?

Protest marches have a historical allure, but I'm not convinced they have any impact. Are you any more aware of this issue from a protest than you were from watching the video?

The Mayor of Baltimore is a Democrat. The Mayor of NYC is Democrat. Many of these elected officials are Democrats. Who here has actually contacted their Mayor, Council Member, or any other elected official to demand policy changes?

[bravenak]

11. It does not work.

We have been marching for generations. Democrats can be just as fucked up as republucans, with their broken windows policing that disproportionately affects the black and poor communities. They have democratic leaders. It did nothing for them. Time to stop the systematic racism and piolice violence. It's up to the system to change the system, black folks can do fuck all about the system. As the country darkens and the institutional racism remains, there will be more riots, year after year.
The solution is and end to police violnce and systematic racism. A kid running down the street should not b murdered by cops. If so, arrrest them immeduately or deal with a possible riot. Cops are like a gang, and they kill with impunity, especially black men. Stop that shit and you'll have stopped the problem that causes riots.

[brooklynite]

15. And how do you compel that change?

Do you think marching and chanting has real influence on the elected officials who are going to have to implement the police policy changes? Do you think rioting and looting does?

[bravenak]

20. Rioting and looting scares the living shit ou of th people making the rules.

They know once the people are done with th police they'll turn attention to the bigger fish unless the big fish come out and say someyhing and start making shit right. The nation ain't never gonna get whiter, just darker. Time to stop fucking with dark folks and giving them rough rides and shooting them in the back. If th riots continue, there will be a change moment. And either or. Either stop the institutional racism and cop murders or I will burn my shit down to get to yours and burn that shit down too. What to do? If people like their property they better start saying something about these murders and pressure for change.

[brooklynite]

61. Remember how the riots in 1968 led to a progressive Democratic President?

I didn't think so...

[bravenak]

66. Riots are not about electing a democratic president.

[brooklynite]

69. Do you imagine a Republican President will be more concerned about the police violence issue?

[bravenak]

76. No. But it's not ven close to good under democrats.

I want fairness. Look at MO. Democratic Governor. Look a Bmore. Black Democratic Mayor. Democrats ain't NO BETTER on issues of police violence when you come down to it. It is a systematic problem that need solving. Now. Or we will live in a time of riots. As time goes on we are a larger share of the population than we were are we are tired of second class status and polic violence. On day, they'll start burning good neighborhoods where ivory tower liberals live.

[BlindTiresias]

133. Completely agreed

People who think that if only Democrats were in charge the institutional racism and nascent police state (and in black/minority communities, an actual legit police state) would disappear are some cloistered motherfuckers.

[bravenak]

135. Cloistered muthafuckers is exactly right.

Seem like every place we've had riots in the last year were Dem cities. Down in Republican North Carolina they arrested their murderous cop. Now, not immediately, mind, but his ass is in jail and no riot came to be.

[G_j]

122. You need to study your history

Aside from the Republican 'October surprise' derailing the Vietnam peace talks, what happened in Chicago was judged to be a "police riot".

Damn, rewriting history is such a disservice to all.

[brooklynite]

125. I wasn't talking about the DNC...

...there were also riots in Washington, Baltimore, Chicago (before the convention) Kansas City, Wilmington, Louisville and Cleveland.

In combination with the Kennedy and King assassinations, they generated a feeling that America was out of control, allowing Nixon to de-emphasize Vietnam and run as a "law and order" candidate for the "silent majority".

[ohheckyeah]

107. Then these

Democrats need to get off their asses and hold cops accountable. The political process hasn't worked from the ground up. How many more years, no make that decades, do black people have to wait?

[Travis_0004]

17. And when businesses don't rebuilt, and there are less jobs available, the ride gets a little rougher

[bravenak]

22. Won't happen.

We got better businesses after the Rodney king riots and less cops.

[lovemydog]

100. Yup, some improvements

came after the L.A. riots. Especially, like you say, fewer cops & better, more locally owned business. What happens in each place is so different. A lot of people are pissed off. Way past lectures.

Thanks for your posts.

[bravenak]

101. Thank you, exactly.

The time for lectures has gone by.

[bravenak]

149. Not rougher than dying from a broken spine at th hand of your 'protectors'.

[LeftOfWest]

143. Well bravenak

as usual you are all over this with outstanding and great responses.


Haven't been here long, but for me you are one of the very very best here.

If I see your name I click on the link/post every time.

[bravenak]

157. Thank you.

[Oktober]

3. Hint: These folks aren't interested in solving anything...

They are out to get something for themselves and fuck everyone else...

Hell, it's considered a virtue...

[G_j]

124. Considered a virtue? What TF does that mean?

Does it have something to do with what you perceive as a certain culture of "thugs"? Or Maybe I don't want to know..

[Oktober]

131. Which part was unclear?

[LeftOfWest]

141. All of it n/t.

[Oktober]

142. It was pretty simple...

I'm not sure how to Barney it up any more...

[JaneyVee]

5. This country was founded on rioting and looting.

[ram2008]

8. It was not founded on burning down the local community's livelihood

Apple's and oranges. I highly doubt the founders were burning down their local neighbors stores.

[JaneyVee]

45. Business doesn't make a community, people do.

[GGJohn]

51. And businesses employ those people of the community,

so burning, looting are counterproductive to the community.

[VanillaRhapsody]

83. well there was that whole tea party episode

I am sure the tea was somebodies livelihood....

[cali]

10. what are you referring to?

[JaneyVee]

43. This land was looted by riotous genocidal mad men.

[GGJohn]

52. Oh, well then, I guess this makes alright for these criminals to riot/loot/destroy

these businesses.
Thanks for clearing that up.

[Major Hogwash]

40. Exactly, and another revolution is taking place right before our eyes!

And yet, some are blind to it.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

9. Is someone pretending that rioting will change things for the better?

I haven't seen that in these pages.

[ram2008]

39. Really, you can see it in the posts above yours.

It's here.

[Liberal_in_LA]

13. "their own communities" terminology like "black on black" that is only used for situations involving

African Americans. Looting and rioting after sporting events or college events or concerts are never referred to with this terminology.

[frylock]

74. nope

[MisterP]

84. "why are they doing this to themselves?!!!": the battlecry of concern trolls everywhere

[Jamastiene]

162. much less condemned

When middle and upper class white kids riot, the tongue lashings and finger wavings don't happen very much either. It is just sort of expected.

[Liberal_in_LA]

169. yes, but expected during to have more self awareness

[NuclearDem]

14. Not what's being said. At all.

People here are just pissed that the only thing people seem to care about in this situation are a few cars and a convenience store.

And not, you know, the black man murdered by the police.

[ram2008]

18. The tide of public opinion was finally starting to turn against cops

All media outlets/blogs etc have been talking about how black people are disproportionately targeted and in some cases murdered by police. The past few months there has been tons of public outrage and steps to address this issue and calls by many organizations and institutions for more transparency and accountability for cops.

YET, TODAY, Some criminals decided they need some free toilet paper and liquor and decided they wanted to vandalize their own communities and burn them to the ground.

All that progress that was being made, will now be evaporated. I guarantee you the population will once again start siding with the cops.

[NuclearDem]

19. Your concern is noted.

[Adrahil]

28. Who said people don't care about the victim? n/t

[TheCowsCameHome]

23. Yeah, but they scored some cool threads and booze.

What a fucking sad joke.

[markpkessinger]

25. They probably don't solve anything . . .

. . . that isn't the point. Once a point of rioting is reached, generally it means that 'legitimate' channels for effective change have completely broken down. You claim that public opinion had finally begun to shift against cops. Well, maybe. But from where these protesters sit, they have watched peaceful protest after peaceful protest in city after city across the country, and STILL unarmed African American men and boys are being gunned down by police for no reason, and they have yet to see ANY substantive reform anywhere as a result of those efforts. For these folks, the very notions of 'law and order,' of justice, of criminality, of 'law-abiding,' have ceased to have any legitimacy whatsoever. And seriously, who can blame them for feeling that way?

[luvspeas]

26. hand wringing and gnashing of teeth do not solve anything either...

So what are you doing to make things better? Being scared?

[Adrahil]

30. Organize and fucking VOTE

Elect a mayor who will clean fucking house in the PD.

[ram2008]

36. Ding, ding, ding; we have a winner.

[gollygee]

102. You might not be aware of the many ways African Americans are kept from voting.

It isn't so simple.

[Adrahil]

108. Voter suppression is real...

... But do not tell me that the reason vote turn out in these neighborhoods is so low is because of voter suppression. I simply do not believe it.

We simply must get the message into the cities that the power of the vote matters. And that turning up on election day is WAY more powerful than trashing a CBS to affect the change needed.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

31. Gangs

"The Baltimore Police Department/Criminal Intelligence Unit has received credible information that members of various gangs including the Black Guerilla Family, Bloods, and Crips have entered into a partnership to 'take out' law enforcement officers," police said. "This is a credible threat."

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/27/us/baltimore-unrest/index.html

[alphafemale]

46. Yep. Gangs taking advantage and exploiting a situation.

Insane that people are cheering on gang violence.

[BronxBoy]

159. On a nationally syndicated Black radio show....

that reaches a HUGE section of the Black American population.....just the opposite was reported. The gangs declared a truce and was supposed to march with members of the clergy to ask for peace.

Hmmm.......wonder who I should believe

[Rosa Luxemburg]

164. One wonders

its possible others might have wanted to pin the blame.

[Ed Suspicious]

37. this probably feels comforting to say, but it just isn't true.

[kelliekat44]

54. Especially in your own neighborhood. nt

[GGJohn]

62. I never understood this,

"Hey, let's show the "man" we ain't going to take shit no more, let's light up our neighborhood, let's loot and destroy the businesses that provide jobs for the citizens of our community".

[morningfog]

58. It got you posting about the issue! ANd the media's cameras and attention.

It is helluva effective. That is why governments use it!

[6000eliot]

67. The police should consider this fact before they beat an unarmed man to death next time.

Blame the ones who are REALLY responsible.

[GGJohn]

70. The ones who are really responsible are those criminals

that are looting and destroying businesses in their own neighborhood.

[6000eliot]

72. Whatever you say.

Missing the point entirely.

[GGJohn]

73. No, I know what you're trying to say,

but the fact remains that the ones responsible for the looting and destruction are, in the words of the Mayor, the thugs from outside the community.

[6000eliot]

77. There are no protests without the police violence that sparked them.

Therefore, there would be no looting and destruction.

[Rex]

80. Not really a debate, people point out the reasons and others like to just side comment.

If only we cared as a society about social disparity as much as a riot. Violence begets more violence and it doesn't matter what the source is. Just spirals out of control like all unrest.

Social disparity, corruption of corporate interests and law enforcement.

[backscatter712]

115. Preach on, Brother ram2008!

I'm sure another patronizing sermon will cool heads after the Blu Klux Klan got away with another murder.

[A Little Weird]

116. What does?

We have seen story after story of citizens (mostly black men) being murdered by cops who get off scot free and then we wonder why there are riots? Frankly I'm surprised the whole damn country isn't burning.

[99Forever]

118. JFK said it best.

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - March 13, 1962

You got a problem with what's happening in Baltimore? Take it up with the murdering scumbags in the blue uniforms.

[closeupready]

121. Ask Maxine Waters what she thinks.

I'm honestly interested in her thoughts, not being snarky.

[Matariki]

123. I'd like to see more condemnation of the police murdering human beings

and getting away with it, than over property damage that can be repaired.

Priorities.

[Maedhros]

128. Yes - this bears repeating.

The problem is that, over and over and over, the police are allowed to kill citizens without repercussions.

[ram2008]

153. Are we not capable of doing two things at once?

Both things are wrong. Both should be condemned by rational people.

[Matariki]

163. Let me rephrase that then - I meant 'INSTEAD of'

It takes the focus away from where it properly belongs. In fact I'd say that's the main purpose - to divert and change the narrative.

[MineralMan]

126. Nor does the police killing young black men solve anything.

That doesn't solve anything, either, but it rightfully pisses people off. The answer is for Baltimore PD to stop giving people violent rides in police vans that can kill. That will help solve some things.

[upaloopa]

127. You don't get it

[Orsino]

130. Injustice causes looting and violence, and is not justifiable at all.

Injustice is the cause.

Looting and violence are symptoms.

[ibegurpard]

132. No one says it does

But when people don't perceive they can get justice the social contract breaks down.

[BlindTiresias]

134. Got you talking about it

Would people nationwide even be aware that a man was murdered by law enforcement otherwise? Nope, probably not.

This is why people like you are essentially telling the oppressed to shut up and keep taking it, just go through the process designed to isolate them away from justice and which favors the very law enforcement officers which by and large are demonstrably their enemies.

[ram2008]

154. Yes they would

The media has been talking non-stop these past few months about the deaths of black men at the hands of police; Garner, Scott, Freddy etc.

The way you change law enforcement is to change the hands of power. How do you do that? You vote. If you're not voting (which Baltimore residents are not doing, considering the low turnout among AA's) then you put pressure socially, if that doesn't work you march on city hall, you peacefully protest, you boycott etc. You don't burn down AA businesses, vandalize AA property and destroy any chance of prosperity ever coming to that community.

Yes, people are talking about it. They're talking about how stupid the rioters of Baltimore are and they're talking about how they want the police to bring order. Great job, it accomplished the exact opposite of what it should have.

[Robbins]

161. Look

I understand why they are upset but i don't condone rioting and looting.people just forget the real issue.