here is the thing. i am good with clinton winning. we have so fuckin' much to do,

[seabeyond]

that what she brings to the table will certainly keep us busy.

we have:
states
supreme court
minimum wage
environment/climate
women
blacks
gays
immigration
health care
college

to address. that is a pretty big plate. that is what i am excited to see where we can go.

i do not look at a clinton win as the end of the world, all is lost, lets give up

difference between progress and democratic, and the economic populist....

not only is there a major difference between repug and dem. there is a major difference between progressive and populist within the dems.

but, once you run outside of dems, and advocate not voting dem? well, hell. lets just call it. it is no longer..... fuckin dem.

[seabeyond]

1. tell ya people. i am jazzed. i moved to another neighborhood, and oh, what i am dealing with.

the poor dudes are gonna have a heart attack, when i put up whatever signs on a huge ass corner lot.

ah ha......

these people, even more so, (panhandle of texas), are not gonna enjoy my campaign season. my other street kinda accepted the only oddities of this town. we had catholic (the heathens) nuns, two lesbian households, and at least half dems. there is not another street like that, in my town.

and the sticker on my car. it will be so visible to everyone. i love this stuff. all the contradictions these people have to face. and with facts. not drama.

[cali]

2. progressive populism incorporates

social justice.

You keep erroneously putting up this completely false construct. It has no connection to reality. Zero. Zip. Zilch.

[seabeyond]

3. not hearing it. only hearing i am minor. and still, that has nothing at all to do with what i posted

which is an absolute constant i get from you and yours. which i am literally done with.

i have something to say. hence the Op . wanna address that, i am fine.

[cali]

7. word salad with a side of p-a

My post absolutely did address your opinion. You claimed that there is a wide gulf between populism and progressive thought. That is not true when it comes to the type of populism practiced by Bernie and quite a few dems. That is progressive populism.

And now I am so done.

[seabeyond]

8. no it did not address. my excitement with clinton and why. stepping out of the dem party. no

you did not address my post

[Puglover]

42. I respect anyone that makes it beyond

sentence one.

Can't do it.

[NaturalHigh]

62. ya fuggin lol

[seabeyond]

65. this is the silliness you continue to bring to conversation. the same people. over and over and...

[winter is coming]

88. Coherence is for weaklings. n/t

[seabeyond]

91. and those that have continually been dismissive, resort to this, while many others actually converse

[winter is coming]

105. If you want conversation, try complete sentences and thoughts,

not stream-of-consciousness whaaargl.

[seabeyond]

106. hey dude.... having that very conversation thru out this thread. but thanks, for stepping up

and being so predictable.

[malthaussen]

118. In other words, you don't like her style...

... so you dismiss her message. Got it.

-- Mal

[winter is coming]

119. No. In other words, her "style" is so incoherent that it rarely supports the point she's

allegedly trying to make.

[Bobbie Jo]

122. So what?

Don't like it, move on. Who appointed you hall monitor anyway?

Sheesh people....

[winter is coming]

130. Perhaps you should take your own advice. n/t

[Bobbie Jo]

131. Perhaps you should take your condescending

attitude elsewhere.

Not impressed...

[hifiguy]

161. In attempts to be persuasive, clarity is a necessity.

[malthaussen]

162. And if one is not attempting to persuade, but simply to express oneself? n/t

[hifiguy]

165. That's a different story, but my general presumption

is that on a board like this one, persuasive argument is the general purpose. Other than the wise-cracks and one liners, of course.

[malthaussen]

170. It's a fair presumption in most cases, I'd say.

Although certainly we see many examples of people who wish only to show contempt and dismissal. I think a few people have a tendency to disregard Sea's posts because they don't want to spend the time parsing them. This in itself would be no problem -- we each only have so much time and tolerance in us, after all -- but it's an oddity to me that there are some species of poster who have all the time in the world to express their contempt, but little to enlighten their understanding.

-- Mal

[AgingAmerican]

180. I assume she is using talk to text

...and posting with her cellphone?? Only explanation I can think of.

[NaturalHigh]

193. I've tried for years to converse with you.

I've tried being nice, inquiring when you weren't feeling well. In return I've been constantly insulted, belittled, and accused of supporting rapists. I'm finished trying to play nice to someone who refuses to respond with anything but hatred.

[hifiguy]

158. The Palinesque prose "style" does nothing to clarify and much to obfuscate.

I have always found sound English grammar and rhetorical clarity to be my friends when I am trying to make a point. But I guess that's just me.

[seabeyond]

166. all my pals of three years, coming in to share the same, ole, thing. you betcha, ;)

[seabeyond]

4. POINT... once the populist walks out of dem party, and advocates not voting dem, they arent dem,

are they?

what part of that makes them dem?

and why the hell should i not be excited about getting clinton in. i listed what we will work on. pretty fuckin cool to me.

i am jazzed woman. how about you?

[kentuck]

13. What does "voting dem" mean?

And if a person with a "D" by their name resembles a Republican more than a Democrat, is it really traitorous to desert that person at election time?

And if another person does not have a "D" by their name but votes like a Democrat on the issues, which one do you support?

And if an elected Democrat does not vote for the people's interests, who is walking out on the Democratic Party?

What should a "Democrat" stand for?

[seabeyond]

15. we cannot factually present clinton as R. i proved that out on the list of things she will address

if she is president. so the very foundation of your argument is factually incorrect.

my point

i can equally argue with you, the populist is appearing pretty damn rw in trickle down, and $ has priority. over lives

[cali]

27. I have to jump back in

First of all, congrats on your excitement over Clinton. It's a relief to see you've dropped your faux support for bernie with its attendant near constant attacks. Secondly, it's utter bullshit to claim that populism as practiced by Bernie and folks like Warren and Brown is in any fucking way right wing. It's dishonorable and totally false.

Bernie, in particular, has long been a champion for social justice and the environment.
For instance, he spoke out and advocated for marriage equality years before Hillary. And he has been named as the top environmental advocate in the Congress.

[seabeyond]

29. "It's a relief to see you've dropped your faux support for bernie"... this is how you chose

to begin your address to me, as you expect to be taken seriously, or even heard?

no thank you

[seabeyond]

31. and no. i still do not know who i will support. before i have even listened

to either get into it, before debates?

no.

i do know, i am not liking the populist group, nor respecting them. or the positions they stand on, outside of sanders voice.

[cali]

32. lol

So everyone supporting a candidate before the debates is stupid?

Consider thinking before posting.

[seabeyond]

34. ya. i realize it was flat out wrong. went to edit, started off on another

angle, so just backed out.

there is nothing correct about that.

[Bonobo]

179. Trying to pair Sanders populism and trickle down economics is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

[treestar]

76. If you really think that then you simply are farther to the left

of the rest of the Democrats. You aren't a Democrat. You're in some party further to the left.

We don't each get to define "Democrat" for ourselves. It is the totality of the party.

[Ed Suspicious]

120. I'm a tomato! But you don't look like a

tomato, you look like a potato. I'm a tomato!. But the sauce you make is starchy and white. I think you're a potato. I'm a tomato! It says so right here on my label that I made for myself. I'm a tomato!

[AgingAmerican]

16. Tacking to the right is essentially walking out the the Dem party

What I will never understand is, why after right wing policies collapse the economy, would any Democrat react by shifting to the right?

Is failure magnetic or something? I will never understand it.

[seabeyond]

22. no. it is not essentially, kinda, or sorta walking out of the dem. hiring a socialist, not taking

dem title, or advocating not voting dem cause your candidate did not win, advocating both parties are the same when they clearly and factually are not.... is in no way, defined as dem.

dont be silly. htat is not gonna fly on a democratic progressive board. we have had better, try.

[AgingAmerican]

24. Not understanding right wingers will never fly on a Democratic board?

What, huh?

On what planet?

[cali]

28. apt question

[seabeyond]

33. again. not really addressing my OP. suggesting i am suppose to not vote for our democratic candidate

[cali]

41. you just aren't making sense

First you write an opinion that any reasonable person would view as an expression of your support for Hillary. Then you scold me for not addressing your excitement about Clinton. Next you tell me that you haven't decided who.you support because it's stupid to support anyone until after the debates. I'm confident that you don't see the glaring contradictions, but they are sure there.

[seabeyond]

45. see, you change what i write, for your interpretation that is not correct. to argue your point.

i am a strategist.

my goal and intent is a dem win

i am looking at both of them. the issues. facts.

i can see where clinton excels. what we will get if she wins. and what we will not get. and still be excited.

i can see who sanders will talk for, address, what the conversation will be if he wins, and be excited for it.

my goals as a democrat, seems to differ from yours.

and that would be you not really reading what i say, and addressing what i actually say.

[cali]

50. I did not change it at all.

Granted you write less than coherently, but you certainly did say you were excited about a Clinton presidency. You did chide me for not initially addressing that,and you did say it was stupid to support a candidate before the debates- something you edited when I pointed it out.


I find your claim to be a strategist.... mind boggling.

[seabeyond]

54. you changed from the very start. not addressing what i said. and then saying i was a faux

sander supporter. i did not get further in your post to me. when a person starts out with a non truth. i stop reading and correct the very premise of their argument.

that i was a faux supporter of sander.

woman.

[NaturalHigh]

194. You're a strategist?

Wow. In what sense of the word? What strategy is your specialty if I might ask?

Good strategists usually try to win friends and influence people. Slinging random insults is rarely a good strategy.

[L0oniX]

121. +1

[Scootaloo]

150. And which populist are you talking about?

[MohRokTah]

5. There's no pony in that list.

I'm taking my ball and going home.

[seabeyond]

9. ya. that. nt

[think]

11. Of course not. How else can we afford to outspend the world militarily....

[AgingAmerican]

14. Or foreign policy, or the economy...

nt

[yallerdawg]

6. Panhandle of Texas?

You really are in the Underground!

You must be from the Ann Richards/Annise Parker/Wendy Davis wing of the Texas Democratic Party!

Give 'em hell, sb! You're in good company!

[seabeyond]

10. fuck that. i am from fuckin... california. they just do not know what to do with me. and mine. nt

[AgingAmerican]

12. What about foreign policy?

I don't see it in there anywhere. Or the economy.

[seabeyond]

17. i thought populist was all about taking care of the people?

[AgingAmerican]

19. And just ignoring everything else?

I don't buy that.

[seabeyond]

23. no more so than what the populist are campaigning on. how about addressing my OP, instead

of making the demands you do not on your own campaign.

[AgingAmerican]

113. I am addressing your OP

I'm just not giving the answers you want to hear.

[seabeyond]

114. no

[seabeyond]

18. and it does address the economy. just not your portfolio. nt

[AgingAmerican]

21. What, huh?

Then you need to add it to your list.

[seabeyond]

25. state, supreme court, minimum wage, college, healthcare all address economics. at the least....

[MaggieD]

20. Exactly!

Every major stride this country has made has been brought to us by Democrats. Meanwhile the extreme left hasn't accomplished anything except bitching.

[yallerdawg]

26. "Blind Rebels Motorcycle Club"

It's still cool!

[bravenak]

30. I do not trust her. She supported things that hurt the poor and black communities.

She supported her husbands policy of mass incarcerations and Wefare reform. Her support of those two things made me despise her. The last campaign she ran was nasty and race baiting. I don't like the idea of being pressure to support a person who race baits people who look like me and promotes policies that harm poor and black families. Welfare to work required work to recieve benefits, and the work was not there in our neighborhoods in the first place. Mass incarcerations was designed to harm black men through the drug war. She supported that. For over 20 years she was very supportive of all of that. Now we are supposed to believe anything has changed and that she will undo that shit? No. I have family that were DIRECTLY harmed by mass incarcerations, drig prohibition/drug war, and wefare reform, and at least HALF of those harmed were women and children. It is impossible to believe her. I have heard nothing from her on those issues that change my mind.

[seabeyond]

35. she was a wife, not a representative just as she was in her role under obama.

we see more of her own, during senate

that is really not the issue with the OP though. there is plenty as a democratic party we need to work on, and she will be a good representative toward those things.

what i have found is over the last two decades, she has had a lot attributed to her, that is not factually true. i figure she will be along hte lines of obama.

not as much as i want, and a lot more than the repugs, and even more than expected, in other areas.

[bravenak]

43. I took it from her on the issues list.

And her own statements of support and her record on drug prohibition. She touted welfare reform as one of Bills greatest achievements.
There are many questions about her and no answers. Just deflections and it's not her fault stuff.

I care about the poor. I do not see that from her. Minimum wage is not enough, not close. She talks about the middle class and business women, that's who she cares about.

As far as her senate record is concerned, I'm not impressed. Hillary does not talk to regular people. She does not answer questions well. These are real issues. Yeah we all want good supreme court justices, but any Democratic candidate running will pick good ones. She ignores the issues most important to me.

[seabeyond]

47. you are talking two decades ago. that is a long time ago. we have all progressed and moved forward.

we have been educated, we adapt, we process the new, we become more experienced and knowledgeable in life. i see no different for clinton or anyone else.

and that includes warren and her own progression in life to where she is today.

[bravenak]

48. That 2 decades of myself, my mother, and my sister having to support member of our family

who live in poverty and who have hard times getting jobs because of welfare reform and the drig war. Just because it happened long ago, does not mean that peopke recovered. There are people locked up right now based on those policies that she supported and since she has 'progressed' that means she should no longer be held accountable for her support? Wonderful!! All those people are free now!!! The poor welfare mothers are fine!! Except the long term damage is done and there has been an increase in child poverty in the last 20 years. Weak sauce. Amends need to be made and policies to undo the damage need to be presented. It is not going away just cause she says she has changed her mind.

[seabeyond]

52. these are your decisions to make. i agree with you on this. and still, i see all the things

a clinton win today, will give us to address. and they are pretty damn important for ME, and our future, my kids future.

[bravenak]

59. I can understand that. Hopefully It will rub off on me if she wins the primary.

[seabeyond]

63. i immediately went to sanders. didnt want clinton in 2008. i found out i did have incorrect info on

clinton. this board certainly is not a fan, and i was conditioned, like many because i had no interest in delving into it. i did not have to. i supported obama the last 8 yrs.

i am far from being a fan of bill. i really do not like the man. i can see where he excels, but as a whole, nope.

when clinton spoke while married to the president for eight years, her voice HAD to reflect her husbands, just as bush shut up about pro choice and michelle does with obama.

when clinton worked for obama her voice supported her bosses.

those are realities. so i am excited to see where she is, with her own voice. i think it might be different.

i need to educate myself, and i need to listen. then i can better know where i sit.

and still. i am comfortable with what i have seen, learned, and heard, about those issues i put in my OP.

[freshwest]

173. Excellent. Yes, the damage accumulates. The invisible suffer and are not heard, or dissed. n/t

[bravenak]

174. Exactly. It continues to this day.nt

[freshwest]

175. It's generational. Think of what this nation could be without it... All of it! nt

[bravenak]

176. I think we could finally be what we claim to be. Free.

[PasadenaTrudy]

49. +1 n/t

[Hiraeth]

53. Perhaps, she relates to business women who own their own business

but, as a working woman I find her totally un-relate-able.

[bravenak]

55. That's what I think too.

Nothing wrong with business women, but it's not me... I feel invisible.

[Hiraeth]

61. That is a good way to put it. Invisible. I can't wait for the debates!

[seabeyond]

66. i am excited about the debates, also. nt

[bravenak]

70. Me too. I can barely contain myself.

[Hiraeth]

73. Bernie will take Hillary places she does not want to go.

[seabeyond]

75. that will be interesting to see. i agree. nt

[Hiraeth]

77. I fully expect ... long pauses ... dead air ... spitting and sputtering and then a plug to foul out.

Solenoid switch will need to be replaced.

She had better get her shit together and quickly.
She had better sound fucking sincere as hell and she will have to MAKE a believer out of me.

otherwise

I fully expect to see Bernie annihilate her ass and the audience to rise up, well, 99% of them, anyway.

[seabeyond]

78. i have never seen that from dems. one of the things i value with dems. i see more

a higher lever discussion.

that is what i expect

and what i am excited about.

[Hiraeth]

81. Bernie is not your everyday Dem. She had better study long into the night.

She needs to do some soul searching and get her heart in the right place out of her pocketbook. And, trust me, her purse is large enough to get lost in.

[Hiraeth]

37. Mouthful. You said it. Thank you.

[dawg]

39. That race baiting thing almost cost her my vote in the 2008 primary.

At the time, I blamed Bill and his people for that. Maybe I was just rationalizing though. I'm not sure.

[seabeyond]

40. i really hope, she has learned to put bill to the very very very back of the bus.

and run on her own. totally. i think that would be interesting to watch.

her and her daughter.

[malthaussen]

124. Provided Bill is willing to be pushed.

They're both ambitious people. I don't think Bill will be happy to play second fiddle. So long as it doesn't effect policy, though, that's their problem.

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

127. i want to see a huge ass shove, from clinton. to the back... dude. i think

it is significant and will do a lot in her personal leadership, if winning the presidency. i think as an older woman, and being supportive of his career, and having 15 yrs of her own career, that she is empowered and confident enough, that it would be grand to watch. he sabotages for ego. and that has been gore, obama and clinton.

[malthaussen]

134. Well, between you and me (and 10,000 others on this forum)...

... I never cared much for Bill at all, and I'm not real fond of Hillary, at least partially because she appears to think highly of the dog. I keep coming back, in my mind, to the statement she wrote in her college yearbook, that her ambition was to "marry a senator." Okay, becoming one is a helluva greater accomplishment, and she is after all a Boomer brought up to think being a good wifey is the most important thing. And she and Bill together are, no question, two of the most personally ambitious people in the country (which sort of goes with being a national politician). So my distaste is probably more irrational and incoherent than otherwise, although her record as a senator does not impress me overall. But she is good on feminist issues, which is a big plus, eh? And of course, better than any Repub, which is what it always seems to get down to.

So I couldn't say I'm excited about her candidacy, but I have to say I have never been excited by anyone, anyway. I'm always thinking in terms of damage control, which is as unglamorous as can be. At worst, Hillary will not destroy the country as quickly as the GOP would if they had half a chance (and half a brain to lead them).

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

136. i agree with a lot you say.... if not all. i see potential though.

i also get jazzed, sitting here surrounded by a sea of red, to hear some progressive. any progressive.

[malthaussen]

143. Schadenfreude, you rotten little girl.

You're picturing their faces when Hillary wins.

One thing cool if she won, though, the RW white-boys will have a conniption that a female is in the WH. Not a good reason to want her, but it does warm the cockles of my heart to imagine it. After 8 years of That Black Guy, would it be too much to hope for some coronaries?

-- Mal

[seabeyond]

147. you betcha.

seabeyond (101,266 posts)

1. tell ya people. i am jazzed. i moved to another neighborhood, and oh, what i am dealing with.

the poor dudes are gonna have a heart attack, when i put up whatever signs on a huge ass corner lot.

ah ha......

these people, even more so, (panhandle of texas), are not gonna enjoy my campaign season. my other street kinda accepted the only oddities of this town. we had catholic (the heathens) nuns, two lesbian households, and at least half dems. there is not another street like that, in my town.

and the sticker on my car. it will be so visible to everyone. i love this stuff. all the contradictions these people have to face. and with facts. not drama.

[bravenak]

44. That caused me to not vote in the primary.

I waited for the general.

[dawg]

56. I almost always vote in primaries when there is no incumbent, but ...

by the time Georgia rolls around, it often seems like it's already over.

I think the fact that we had a tightly contested primary in 2008 was a good thing for the party.

Despite my support for Hillary in the primaries, Obama winning that November was one of the happiest moments of my life. (Not top 10, but probably at least top 100.)

I remember going through the McDonald's drive-thru the next day, and the young woman at the window tentatively asked me who I had voted for. I told her I voted for President-elect Obama, and we high-fived through the window!

To this day, I wonder what it was about me that made her feel like that was a safe question to ask a middle-aged straight white man in rural Georgia on the day after the election. Probably just the huge grin I wasn't able to get off my face for at least a week or two.

[seabeyond]

57. yes. and fun. i was there too. nt

[bravenak]

58. I was smiling for weeks after that election too.

I had some super conservatives in my office and my governor was running mates with ol Mccain, so they thought they had it in the bag. Me and the CEO voted Dem.
The office was QUIET for weeks. I loved it.

[seabeyond]

67. you had the whole palin thing. yes. ah ha. nt

[bravenak]

68. It was seven shades of hell.

[seabeyond]

71. interesting anyway. supporting obama while calling out sexism to clinton and palin.

talk about rough. lol

[NaturalHigh]

185. It never ceases to amaze me...

that here on Democratic Underground, one of our best presidents ever, who happens to be a Democrat, was re-elected by a landslide in his second term, survived eight years of investigation and bogus impeachment attempt, and left office with low unemployment numbers and a budget surplus, is a constant target of attack. It just goes to show that no good deed goes unpunished, I suppose.

I see a lot of "I Miss Bill" bumper stickers, and I always nod my head.

[bravenak]

186. Ok. But everything I said was still accurate.

[NaturalHigh]

187. You'll forgive me if I disagree.

[bravenak]

188. Of course.

[dawg]

36. I probably won't vote for her in the primary this time ...

but I don't really have a problem voting for her in the general election.

I *did* vote for her in 2008. Several things I heard from Obama made me feel like he had unrealistic expectations of being able to co-operate with the Republicans. I doubted that Clinton suffered from any such delusions.

I still think Hillary can be at least as good a President as President Obama. She is far too comfortable with third-way economic thought for my taste, and might end up selling us down the river a time or two. But I doubt she'll ever offer to give any ground unilaterally, which has unfortunately happened more than once over the last six years.

President Obama has been a good, though far from perfect, President on economic issues. I would expect much the same from Clinton.

[seabeyond]

38. you and i are probably walking htis exactly the same. even though others want to tell me, otherwise

lol

just LOVE how that works.

ya. i am pretty much totally in step with you

i went obama in 2008. knowing we were looking at basically the same candidate. i thought we might get a little more from him in addressing economics. and ya. promising more than can deliver. but i hoped.

[malthaussen]

128. These things are so much easier when you just vote against the fools.

See, if you had just been resolved that even a dead hamster was superior to McCain and Palin, you would have been more comfortable about your vote.

-- Mal

[Thinkingabout]

46. K & R thanks

[DCBob]

51. I get what you are sayin..

[NaturalHigh]

60. Okay, so you're backing Clinton.

That's cool with me, as I am supporting Hillary Clinton as well.

I wish you could have just said you were a Clinton supporter from the beginning, though, instead of pretending that you were considering Sanders and then posting one hit piece after another about him. "Ya, im considering Bernie but hes just not into social justice the way I am."

[seabeyond]

69. did i say that?

[NaturalHigh]

85. It's pretty obvious from your post...

and all of your previous posts knocking Bernie Sanders for not being as "socially conscious" as you would like.

[seabeyond]

86. so i did not say that. you just made shit up.

[NaturalHigh]

87. No, I didn't make it up.

Like I said, it has been pretty obvious from your posts ever since you started all this. People pretty much knew from the very beginning that your "id like to support Bernie but" posts were just word salad to disguise your true support for another candidate.

Why you would want to hide your support for Secretary Clinton instead of announcing it outright is beyond me. I tell anyone who is interested that I fully intend to vote for Secretary Clinton. She's a great candidate.

[seabeyond]

93. yes. you did

[cali]

125. nope. that is absolutely accurate

[seabeyond]

129. where in my OP did i state i was now a clinton supporter and i was not a sander supporter?

[hrmjustin]

64. I think Clinton is really the only Democrat that can win.

[seabeyond]

72. i am excited and interested to see what develops. but, i do believe, even if sanders is the

candidate for dems, he will be a win too. i think this elections is dems to win.

[hrmjustin]

74. i hope so.

[Hiraeth]

79. And that is the attitude she is planning on, counting on and hoping for.

[hrmjustin]

80. It is an honest opinion.

[Hiraeth]

83. I didn't say otherwise and you are entitled to it.

[hrmjustin]

89. If Sanders really wants to win he is going to have to prove himself.

[Hiraeth]

95. I see it totally opposite. I see Bernie as the New Obama coming out of nowhere. The Dark Horse.

May the best horse win. Cheers!

[hrmjustin]

96. We disagree but have a good weekend.

[Hiraeth]

99. No buts about it I will and, hope you do, too.

[seabeyond]

98. i absolutely think that is a possibility. i thought more so, then the last couple days.

but that is listening to supporters. not him. hence, the excitement in this primary.

[Hiraeth]

101. That is funny because his supporters are listening to him and that is why we support him.

Kind of convoluted way to get there but, whatever rocks your boat.

[seabeyond]

102. ya ya ya. i see what you did there. nt

[cui bono]

82. Clinton will further cement the Democratic Party as a moderate Republican Party.

If you want everything on your list and more, Sanders is the way to go. He will take us back to the true principles and ideals of the Democratic Party before it moved so far right as to become center.

[seabeyond]

84. and if sanders does not win the primary, i will be excited and enthused voting clinton in and

address all the work on that list we have to do, to improve lives.

[cui bono]

184. Yeah, well if Sanders (or O'Malley I think) does not win the primary I may vote third party

or just not vote for president. I can afford to do that in my state and I really don't want to hold my nose and vote again. I was actually excited and proud to vote for Obama the first time, then held my nose the second time. I want to vote FOR someone not against their opponent. Sanders finally give me a reason to be super positively excited about a presidential election again.

[Initech]

90. SCOTUS is by far the most important thing on that list.

We win, we get control of the court for possibly the next 50 years. They win, the court stays in the favor of the GOP. And if Scott Walker or Jeb Bush wins, expect the replacements for Scalia and Thomas to be a million times worse.

[seabeyond]

94. i could not agree more. it has to be an absolute. yes. nt

[Hiraeth]

97. I am afraid of what HRC will do to the SCOTUS. She will not choose much differently from

Scott or Jeb.

[seabeyond]

100. i totally disagree with that. she will be in line with obama. and his were fine. nt

[Hiraeth]

103. I hope she doesn't get a chance to prove it. I hope the question is up for the debates.

[seabeyond]

104. i am fine with both.... works for me. nt

[Hiraeth]

107. So, I gathered. but, she honestly scares the crap outta me.

When I hear southern, older, white, male Republicans say she has their vote. Oh Hell to the no.

[seabeyond]

110. i have a knuckle draggin, fox news watching, brother tooting sanders horn. what that tells us

are the repugs are not voting repug.

as i said

it is the dems to win

sanders or clinton.

that stokes me.

that is a good thing

[yallerdawg]

123. Wait. What?

Where do you hear southern, older, white male Republicans say she has their vote?

In a bar at 2 AM doesn't count!

[Hiraeth]

126. How about at the work place. I don't go to bars.

[yallerdawg]

133. Oh, it's anecdotal.

I thought you might be referring to the most phenomenal poll ever!

Or you were running into them while they were drunk.

I live deep in the south, and I have never heard a Republican of any ilk say they would vote for Hillary.

[Hiraeth]

183. Of course, it is anecdotal. I never claimed otherwise.

I have heard several to many Rs of both genders say it my area of the southeast.

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. Clinton is my third choice.

I won't be nearly as disappointed to see her win as I would be to see my (distant) fourth pick chosen.

I think we democrats can do better, and if you ignore the arguments of inevitability and campaign cash, there are clearly better choices for progressive voters - especially if the corrosive influence of inequality on our elections and our society is one of your areas of concern, or in fact whose areas of interest extend beyond simple head count of female CEO's and Senators.

[cheapdate]

108. Well put. I'm with you.

[Gothmog]

109. Yes, there will be a ton of hard work facing HRC

[seabeyond]

111. certainly... as there was with our first black president, stepping into bush mess. nt

[bluegopher]

115. I would prefer Senator Warren, but...

Obviously pretty much everyone here would enthusiastically support an HRC candidacy, at least I hope that's the case. All you have to do is look at the ignorant retreads on the other side. Jeb isn't much better, but there's is no way Ted Cruz could ever become president, right? My God would that be frightening. I think Warren is my favorite senator even though my state has 2 really good ones right now.

1. Elizabeth Warren
2. Bernie Sanders
3. HRC

[seabeyond]

117. ya. well. we are hearing strong and loud, those saying they will not vote, the parties are the same.

hence, my OP.

at what point, is one not a democrat?

[bluegopher]

132. Yeah, I'm just agreeing with you.

Anyone who says the parties are the same is delusional, just look at the differences between MN and WI, and look at the influx of extreme right wingers over these last years who consistently say and do unbelievably stupid shit. I also think, and I'm just guessing here, that HRC will help senate and house candidates, many of whom are to the left of her, way more than any other candidate.

[seabeyond]

135. i am in a state where st senator declares women and girls carry dead fetus after 20 weeks to

to avoid an abortion and a gov pumping up for war with our u.s. military. lol

i hear ya.

and thank you. that is another assets i had not considered with clinton. her position with senate.

[bluegopher]

164. I actually meant...

that she would help them by drawing large numbers of women, minority, and younger voters out to vote. I just don't see that happening with Bernie, at least not to the same extent. I definitely prefer him politically though. Oh, and sorry about your state.

[cali]

144. myth that you are perpertrating.

there was a recent poll on whether Bernie supporters would support Hillary and visa versa. the vast majority of Bernie supporters said they'd vote for her.

[seabeyond]

148. i assume it is the majority. i do not know that it is the vast, but i do assume it is the majority.

so, how about if my OP is not to the people that agree with me, but the people that are saying otherwise. you think?

again. fabricating your argument from something i have NOT said.

READ MY actual words. it matters

[cali]

153. sorry, it's the vast majority.

and I read your actual mish mash of words.

[seabeyond]

155. you do not know that. that is a guess. as it would be for everyone. why would you put yourself

out there stating it as a fact.

anyway. what i do know, is you work with more insults and dismissals and flat out fabrications and accusations than i am willing to put up with. one reply. i need one reply, then i need to remember to walk away.

[OregonBlue]

116. Hillary is more conservative than I am but when it comes to social issues

she is a true dyed in the wool Dem. I love Bernie but I will happily vote for Hillary is it will stop Jeb Bush or god forbid Scott Walker. I also don't appreciate slamming Dem candidates on a Dem discussion board. Name one Dem even considering running that would be as bad as any of the cray cray Republicans.

[whatchamacallit]

137. I'm good with letting our system play out and finding the best democrat for president

Anything else is just plain lame.

[Rex]

138. People here don't want HRC to win if she is the primary candidate?

Really?

[seabeyond]

139. yes rex. nt

[Rex]

140. That's fucking pathetic.

Excuse my choice of words.

[seabeyond]

142. i think so, also. i can get the enthusiasm for sanders and still, i am a democrat. nt

[cali]

141. Recent DU polls say you are full of it.

You seem to feel that you have the right to repeatedly make shit up without being called on it.

[seabeyond]

145. peruse this thread from just yesterday. when you ignore it, doesnt mean it is not so.

it just means it does not interest you, which you have made clear. if one does not support sanders as YOU see fit, then they are not sander supporters. you ignore what you want, to argue as you see fit, for your personal win.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6639707

[cali]

151. I just went through it and counted those who said they wouldn't vote for her: THREE

despite your incessant haranguing trying to get people to say that they wouldn't vote for her and actually putting words in the mouths of others.

As I said, it's a totally bullshit claim.

And it's reprehensible. Not surprising, however.

Ugh

[seabeyond]

152. you are a treat cali.

[cali]

154. I don't make things up- something I have zero respect for.

[seabeyond]

156. ya. you do. all though this thread. you made up one accusation after another. even when proven

wrong, you continued on your path. so ya. i have seen very few make up their arguments tailor made for a win, quite like you do.

[cali]

159. that's simply fantasy on your part. And anyone reading through this thread can see that.

[seabeyond]

157. you argue vast. i never said that. say i am faux support, cause it is not your way. say OP proves

it, when it does no such thing.

and that is just off the top of my head.

[cali]

160. Codswallop. horse pucky. baloney. bullshit.

the top of your head is right. Try with your petites cellules gris.

[seabeyond]

167. instead of just calling names, clue me in where i stated anything incorrectly?

[cali]

171. that is not name calling. obviously.

and I have repeatedly, in COHERENT detail, explained that to you throughout this thread.

[seabeyond]

172. no you have not. you make up a story, hand it to me, demand i accept your story, and tear

apart an argument i DID NOT make.

[whatchamacallit]

146. Apparently, not preferring Hillary for the nominee

equates to "not voting dem". She's that presumptive...

[seabeyond]

149. so cali says. though yesterday i was in the middle of that very argument as i linked to her. nt

[cali]

163. fail. again.

the person you just responded to also said it. And I just kicked a poll- all for you.

[seabeyond]

169. you really gotta ignore people to have your argument. why do i need your poll?

why am i not allowed to say, i like being a dem and excited for the vote. why am i not allowed to say, in your scenario, that those that advocate not voting, or the parties are the same, are not participating democrats. or at least asking that question.

why

must i think only like you?

and why

am i not allowed to post what is relevant to me?

[rock]

168. You are right.

This is a point that I have tried to make, but you do a better job: nobody is perfect especially politicians. Choose the best fit you can find. That is the way politics works.

[akbacchus_BC]

177. You know Ms. Clinton is not going to change anything!

She just wants to win but the status quo will remain the same. She is for big business and they all advocate for the working class. What about the poor people?

Politicians lie to get elected and then they do not do what the campaigned on!

[Llanganati]

178. This is why liberals never actually get anything done

She is a bourgeois politician who is not interested in any sort of liberation.

The Democratic Party is a farce and it surprises me you all have not realized this yet. They work, as do the Republicans of course, in the interest of capital accumulation.


Aside from that, Hillary has her own unsavory history. She fully supported Bill's disastrous welfare cuts and racist criminal "justice" reforms, and even boasts about the former in her book.

The right likes to criticize her over Benghazi, but Benghazi is peanuts. What is actually a problem is her role in the overthrow of a democratically elected leftist president in Honduras in 2009, and has been unabashedly supportive of the right-wing government which came to power after extremely dubious elections and has proceeded to turn the country into an extremely violent place.

In general she used her position as Secretary of State to advance the interests of American capital abroad in very unsettling ways.

She is nothing but an enemy to working class and should be rejected.

[gopiscrap]

192. Welcome to DU

[cantbeserious]

181. I Will No Longer Settle For The Lesser Of Two Evils - Go Bernie Go

eom

[PowerToThePeople]

182. .

[rosemani3507]

189. urgent

hi

[gopiscrap]

190. Welcome to DU

[NaturalHigh]

191. Hi, and welcome to DU!