I'm starting to feel bad for Hillary Supporters

[hootinholler]

Last edited Sun Jun 7, 2015, 01:45 PM - Edit history (1)

That video (not my headline) was Bernie's message to the Wisconsin Democratic Party's convention. The subsequent straw poll came out putting Bernie 8 points off Hillary, and she didn't crack 50% support.

I've never been one to support a frontrunner, so I've never directly experienced an evaporating lead, but I bet it's frustrating as hell. You have my sympathies, I think it could be quite harrowing.

All y'all are welcome to join us on the right side of history anytime. Sorry, that's just like my opinion there. I actually do believe that Bernie is on the right side of history. Here's why.

Bernie is talking about building an actual Grass Roots Progressive National Coalition. Think about that for a minute. Who was the last person to effectively do such a thing? What was the result? To my memory, it was Dr. King. Do I really need to talk about the second question? I will say I don't much like the end game there.

Before that? FDR had a pretty good one.

History has treated them both fairly well.

Together, we finally have someone who can give a focal point such that we are enabled to set things right, even if only for a while. For a generation. I'll take that result. FDR's revolution lasted about a generation and there are still pieces there to be built upon. I'll take that. I want to be a part of making that happen. I don't want my kids worrying about health care anymore. I don't want my kids having to raise outrageous sums just to be educated. I don't want my grandchildren living underground because the surface is too dangerous because of heat or storms.

Bernie understands that the coalition needs to be engaged continuously, not just during elections. If we can't get him a proper congress in this election, he will have it for the mid-term election.

I'll take that We The People actually means People for a while and I finally see an opportunity to make that happen. I finally think it might actually be possible.

So, come to the dark side, we have beer and travel money owed.

[Katashi_itto]

1. The DU admin approved corporate candidate never has problems,

It's not in the script.

[Logical]

177. Hillary will get tore up in a debate with Bernie. She has to be scared. nt

[pocoloco]

192. Hell, she can't be half as scared as the repugs are

that she won't get the nomination!!

[kenfrequed]

257. Republicans would prefer to go up against Hillary

Honestly, they have had a decade to get ready for this. One of the reasons there are so many republicans running is that some of them probably think that it is a sure thing that one of them will get elected if they are running against Hillary.

Obviously, I do not think that their confidence is justified and I think even Hillary would probably win. But I definitely think that Bernie is the stronger candidate and will make it substantially harder for them to run against.

[billhicks76]

213. Too Many In both Parties Dislike Her

And it's not hard to figure out why. Something isn't right with her.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. It appears she is doing quite fine

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-national-democratic-primary

[OhZone]

113. OhYeah! n/t

[rock]

120. Thanks DemocratSinceBirth, I like you!

I wouldn't want anyone to get wrinkles in their forehead feeling bad for us Hillary Supporters!

[lunamagica]

168. Thank you for this, DemocratSinceBirth!

What s succinct, concise, perfect, to the point response!

[morningfog]

191. She has a commanding lead nationally, but the primary is held by states.

This OP is about Michigan and a straw poll worth noting there.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

240. The OP is about Wisconsin.

I am not going to make inferences about a straw poll HRC won that wasn't covered by the nat'l media and neither candidate campaigned for.

I would also recommend Ben Carson M.D.'s staff not make too many inferences about his OK straw poll win either:

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/dr-ben-carson-wins-oklahoma-straw-poll

[olegramps]

243. Is DU becoming an echo chamber? It seems out of touch with the reality of the situation.

I admire Senator Sanders and if he was the party's nominee I would gladly support him. I know that it is early in the race, but at this point you have to be realistic and it will take a tremendous effort for Sander's to get the nomination. What does disturb me is the growing vehemence being displayed against Clinton to the disturbing declaration of several on this board who say that they will not support her if she in the nominee. Would democrats actually go so far as to boycott the election to the point that a Republican is elected?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

244. Is DU become an echoing chamber?

Did American Pharoah just win the Triple Crown?


HRC will do just fine without the disaffected intellectuals who loudly oppose her candidacy.

[OKNancy]

3. He'll never make to the April primary in Wisconsin

Her delegate count by then will be overwhelming.

Not only that but straw polls are even worse for any kind of prediction.

Don't feel sorry for Hillary supporters. LOL

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. I like the gratuitous call out./NT

[cheapdate]

164. What are you talking about? What "call out"? The OP?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

175. The unedited version:

The unedited version which is the version many of us responded to:

I'm starting to feel bad for Hillary Supporters

I've never been one to support a frontrunner, so I've never directly experienced an evaporating lead, but I bet it's frustrating as hell. You have my sympathies, I think it could be quite harrowing.

All y'all are welcome to join us on the right side of history anytime. Sorry, that's just like my opinion there. I actually do believe that Bernie is on the right side of history. Here's why.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=thread&address=10026794324&info=1#edits

[cheapdate]

182. Got it.

[cali]

15. you're right. she and her corporate cronies will buy the nomination.

I'll vote for her in the general, and then take a long shower. Better a corrupt dem, than a right winger.

[Duckhunter935]

30. Well my vote will not matter

But it will be a very long shower for me too

[hifiguy]

91. I will not vote for that woman,

but it makes no difference, as my state is as reliably blue as they come in presidential elections. So I can vote my conscience, just like I did in 1980 when I voted for John Anderson, a vote I have never regretted.

ETA - how can you not love that clip in the OP? That's the real deal there.

[Duckhunter935]

102. Mines all RED

and I know my vote will not make any difference on the presidential level.

[hifiguy]

104. Were my state not as blue as it is I would probably hold my nose

and vote for HRC, but MN is what it is - reliably Democratic in presidential elections. So I will be doing no harm to anyone, and I would never miss the opportunity to vote for my wonderful congressman, Keith Ellison. Not voting at all is never an option for me.

[Duckhunter935]

107. Oh, I always vote

but you do not get any more red than OK

[Aerows]

135. Except MS

where I live. I could vote for Jesus Christ but if he had a D behind his name, he'd still lose.

[Duckhunter935]

137. Lol

[Aerows]

139. It's just as true in OK

as it is here LOL.

[bvar22]

144. My state is solid Red .

Thee is no way Hillary wins my state, so we are free to vote our consciences.
Thats one of the few advantages to living in a Red State.
We don't have to vote for whomever the Party Bosses put on the table.

[peacebird]

178. I'm in Virginia, and will vote for my preferred candidate.

[marble falls]

224. Voting for Anderson got us Reagan, and Jimmy Carter at worst was no corporate shill....

not voting for Clinton might get us Cruz or Scott or Trump or Fiorina or another clown du jour.

[Duckhunter935]

226. not when your vote really does not matter

There is no way in hell Oklahoma will vote Democratic for president in the foreseeable future. Those are just the facts.

[yesphan]

227. Yep.

The last time OK voted for a democratic president was 1964.

[marble falls]

228. All those votes that don't matter added up together do matter. The individual vote may not matter...

but the attitude of not mattering across the nation does. The GOP loves that attitude. It contributes passively to voter suppression which ALWAYS works to the GOP's advantage, particularly in local and state elections. If one isn't voting for a Presidential choice, he probably isn't voting period.

[Plucketeer]

246. Not only DO the votes "matter".....

There's innocent kids in camou - kids ignorant of our political process, like I once was. These kids - and the ones that come home in body bags - have their asses put on the line with the inspiration of being told they're fighting to protect our right to vote. Even tho - more and more, that's a lie - I guarantee you they think they are. They continue a tradition that goes WAY back. Even tho I volunteered to go into Vietnam in '65, military service is not something I'd recommend for kids nowdays - at least, not so long as we're in the business of meddling in other nations business. That said tho - I make sure to vote when the opportunity presents itself. The fresh-faced kids (like I once was) - pumped full of bravado - provoke me to do so - them and the body bags.

[marble falls]

247. AMEN! +1000

[karynnj]

249. I get your point in the general case, but Reagan had over 50% of the vote

I once saw an analysis that even gave Carter all the Anderson votes and showed the states he would win. He fails to get the electoral college. (I did google, but there are tons of right wing sites that came up which I refuse to link to. ) That assumption really goes too far as many "main street" Republicans probably voted for Anderson, who was a moderate Republican. While he would be off the spectrum of Republicans now, then he was very much on the spectrum of Republicans. He very likely got the moderate/liberal Republican vote that actually existed then that might otherwise have either not voted or reluctantly voted for Reagan.

However, that said, there WERE states - many in the Northeast (from memory) that were said to likely change to Carter from Reagan if Anderson did not run.

[hifiguy]

261. Not in my state, which went for Carter.

My vote of conscience had zero effect on the election. Raygun won big.

[historian]

220. nobodys votes matter

Bush has shown us how elections are rigged and besides the popular vote doesn't count. The electoral college has taken care of that. Democracy my rear end!

[LiberalArkie]

58. If however a Republican did win the election, it would destroy the party. It would be bad for

our nation, but the R's would be like the Whig party. It was quite a while after Herbert Hoover before another conservative Republican could be elected.

[Rod Beauvex]

186. After Bush, I no longer believe that.

Nixon should have killed the GOP. He didn't.
Reagan should have killed the GOP. He didn't.
Bush II should have killed the GOP. He didn't.

[stopwastingmymoney]

196. I'd argue that Bush II was worse than any of those.

In a profound way that most people see now.

[marble falls]

223. I thought like that, too. Since Ford. Living in Texas has shown me that some people have no ....

limit to the depth dumbness they can eagerly vote for.

[cantbeserious]

87. I Will No Longer Settle For The Lesser Of Two Corporate Evils - Go Bernie Go

eom

[OhZone]

114. I like Bernie -

- But when he loses the primaries, what will you do in the General?

[cantbeserious]

125. No More Corporate Controlled Candidates For This One - The Write-In Ballot Works Just Fine - Thank You

eom

[OhZone]

273. So basically a protest vote.

I admire your dedication, but it's almost the same as not voting. Oh well.

[orpupilofnature57]

155. I agree, pathetic as it is .

[marble falls]

222. Exactly right. We may not like it, but the alternative is nightmarish: Cruz .... Jeb ....Trump ....

Scott .....hell the entire GOP clown car full of abysmal futures.

[KingCharlemagne]

83. After Sanders cleans her clock in Iowa and shellacks her in New Hampshire, Hillary and

her campaign will be reduced to the tired, albeit predictable, red-baiting. One plus side: she and Bill won't diss African American voters this time around (see 2008), as she and her campaign will need every single AA voter to maintain any electoral viability. In the end, she will have only the Super Delegates. And then they will begin to defect before the will of the people. (Again, see 2008.)

[hifiguy]

98. Iowa and NH are "retail politics" states - one-on-one and small groups.

Bernie is superb at retail politics. I think there is a big grain of truth - about the size of a basketball - in your analysis.

[KingCharlemagne]

100. Why thank you. I would go so far as to say Sanders will enjoy something of a 'favorite son'

status in New Hampshire, so some of his success there can be written off to that. But a 1-2 win in Iowa and NH will show he has momentum on his side and put a lot of the pressure on South Carolina, where I think Hillary enjoys more support at least for now. Debates may help shake SC loose and put it into play for Sanders. So then it's on to Super Tuesday, where Clinton's $$$ may buy her some viability. I'd love to see the decision come down to California, since then my vote in the primary would actually matter for once. Hell, I'll even get out and walk precincts for Sanders if the nomination is still up for grabs when it gets to CA.

[virtualobserver]

127. the cool thing is, not only do you get to vote in a meaningful way.....

there are actual rallies you can attend. 2008 was wonderful for me in Texas. I got to see not only Obama rallies, but also Ted Kennedy and Chelsea Clinton.

[sabrina 1]

195. Want to bet on that? I'll bet a $50 donation to Bernie when he wins.

Bernie's poll numbers are going up rapidly. The reason is he is unafraid to speak to and for the people. And the more the people get to know him, the more they support him.

We know big money will be spent to try to smear him, it's already started. But times have changed, that kind of tactic is now well know to the public and his literal army of supporters on Social Media are taking care very nicely of each new attempted smear.

Bernie Sanders is the President this country needs right now.

As soon as he is known across the country, which right now he is not, though more and more people ARE getting to know, he is going to be very tough to beat.

[treestar]

4. Why do you feel sorry for them?

You seem to be making it a personal thing. If Bernie wins you will need Hillary's supporters to transfer their support to him. So your attitude is silly and could lead to a Republican president.

[Agschmid]

8. The Hillary supporters would be fools not to support him if he was the nominee...

But that also goes the other way.

[KingCharlemagne]

84. Half of HRC's putative supporters here probably plan to defect to the Republican in

the GE in the event of a Sanders nomination. (See McGovern 1972.) That's right - they'd take a Romney or McInsane before a Sanders. I only hope Sanders can energize and motivate the roughly 50% who don't vote to cover the inevitable defections.

[Agschmid]

86. Entirely false.

Let me know when you find a shred of evidence to the contrary. If you do I will call that person out for that.

[KingCharlemagne]

93. You are aware, I trust, that no less a Dem personage than Hubert Humphrey is on tape laughing

it up with Tricky Dick at McGovern's 1972 defeat? Are we allowed to call out Humphrey for that act of perfidy? Or is it now the fashion only to look forward, rather than backward?

[Agschmid]

97. Sure...

But don't pretend that's who you were calling out.

[fbc]

89. Yeah I doubt that.

Many Hillary supporters may not even be huge fans but think she's the most likely democrat to win. Hillary supporters will get on board, just like they did with Obama.

[PADemD]

214. just like they did with Obama

My personal experience in PA was that, not every Hillary 2008 supporter got on board with Obama.

[Bohunk68]

216. I remember the PUMA's and suspect they would do the same again.

IF Hillary does not win the nomination.

[marble falls]

225. Just like they did with McGovern.

[Thinkingabout]

92. You may be assuming a little much here, there are many and would say are very dedicated Democrats

who knows the value of electing Democrats into office, I have not seen ANY republican who has declared or planning on declaring who would even command a look into voting. I have heard many here who says if Hillary is the nominee they will not vote or vote for another candidate by even writing in a name. I know this would not be smart either.

Where have you heard more than 50% would vote for republicans?

[mythology]

94. What utter unabashed nonsense

[shenmue]

95. Oh horse crap

What is wrong with you?

[hrmjustin]

96. Name one! You have the courage to make accusations then have the courage to back it up.

[KingCharlemagne]

101. Not an accusation, a prediction. See the history of 1972 for the last time a real progressive

ran as a Dem. I dare you.

[hrmjustin]

106. You dare me to what?

You made an an accusation against HRC supporters that half of us would bail on the nominee.

Have the corage to name names or you can't be taken seriously.

Every single supporter of HRC here has said they would support the nominee if it was not her.

There are several anti-HRC people who have sisaid they will not support her if she is the nominee. What do you say about them?

[KingCharlemagne]

109. I made a prediction, based on 1972 (the last time a progressive was the Dem nominee). Is

English not your strong suit?

I dare you to (re) read the history of the 1972 campaign.

Why would Humphrey, in most respects save Vietnam a solid liberal, be laughing along with Tricky Dick at McGovern's defeat?

[hrmjustin]

111. Insulting people seems your strong suit and 1972 was a long time ago.

You made an accusation against us and you can't back it up.

Very dishonest on your part.

If you want to be taken seriouks. Name the people here who will defect to the Republicans.

Have the courage of your convictions and name names.

[okasha]

124. "I laugh that I may not cry"?

Humphrey is entirely irrelevant to this discussion, such as it is.

McGovern, now. That's something to think about.

[OhZone]

115. Yup. n/t

[OKNancy]

108. Proof of that?

None because that is a nutty statement.

[totodeinhere]

141. I am a Bernie supporter but I don't think that half would abandon the Democratic Party if

Bernie gets the nomination. Your comment is going way too far.

[Sheepshank]

183. Bullocks.

I have never ever seen a post form any Hillary supporter saying they would not vote for the Dem nominee..even if it were Sanders.

Sanders supporters otoh, just on this thread have said otherwise.

Not sure where you are getting your info. How about at least one example. This thread has 3 examples of clear statements made by DUers that they will not support the Dem nominee if it is Hillary.

[giftedgirl77]

185. Your comment is complete nonsense..

Especially since there are quite a few Bernie supporters on this very thread that blatantly state they won't vote for HRC if she's the nominee.

You might want to reflect on which group of people are least likely going to throw their support behind the Dem nominee.

[mcar]

187. It is Sanders supporters on this thread who say they won't vote for the

Dem nominee. Not HRC supporters.

Your claim goes beyond ridiculous and your shifting the goalposts to 1972 indicates you cannot substantiate your ludicrous claim.

[totodeinhere]

188. No I think that when all is said and done most Sanders supporters would vote for

HRC and most HRC supporters would vote for Sanders. One thing that unites both camps is contempt for the Republicans.

[BlueEye]

218. If you meant putative *financial* supporters for Hillary vs. Bernie, then you're probably right.

I can't imagine Clinton's Wells Fargo/Citibank/JP Morgan Chase support would roll over to Sanders very well.

Now in terms of votes, I still believe Hillary Clinton will command a historic percentage of Democratic votes, as well as millions of independents.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. Let him make it personal.

That's all they got!

[MADem]

20. Senator Sanders would most certainly decry this goad/bait approach to "touting" his candidacy.

He's got a lot more positivity than some of his supporters.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. Like Gandhi...

" I like your Christ...It's your Christians I don't like so much."

[JaneyVee]

31. "I like your Bernie, it's your Sanderistas I don't like so much"

Something like that?

[dlwickham]

80. very well put

I'll give you the Queen Hillary crown for your post

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

105. I paraphrased that on another blog

The guy would not let up on the Hillary bashing. Oddly he never stated a reason to vote for Sanders other than that he wasn't Hillary.

[1StrongBlackMan]

232. IIRC, that poster won't be/can't vote for either candidate in the GE. n/t

[Cha]

198. Brillaint, DSB! Bernie's fine.. it's those who are campaigning for him through mean spiritness that

turn me completely off.

[Sheldon Cooper]

29. Seriously. Bernie seems like a great guy.

From what I've seen of his supporters here - not so much.

[Voice for Peace]

67. I think most of his supporters are a decent slice of progressive humanity.

The majority here are not likely to be assholes, either.
Let's all work together, anyhow. Nobody wins by knocking
somebody else down in this world.

[retrowire]

81. As a Bernie supporter, let me set the record straight.

Myself and Bernie would not support this OP message of speaking of Hillary in a pitiful light.

Bernie only speaks in truths and that is what we should all do.

Hillary only needs to solidify her stance on more positions and take her hands out of Wall St.

These are not criticisms of Hillary, only facts. And that's all we need to speak of on the DU.

Let's not knock down our allies in the Democratic Party, that only serves to divide us. You'll only lead the majority on the right path through truth and careful reasoning.

I hope I've given you hope about the character of Bernie supporters.

[Scootaloo]

131. Well, we play with the hand we're dealt

It hasn't been a pleasant two years, shacked up with the people now promoting Hillary, let's say. So some of the frustration of that long period of antagonism is going to seep out.

Especially when we have "DU Luminaries" insisting that our candidate is a racist, segregationist violent gun nut who is responsible for the actions of the Chicago PD and slavery in Virginia.

[hootinholler]

149. You forgot

Swift boaters for Bernie.

And did you know that we have an organized program to hide the posts of Hillary supporters?

[Scootaloo]

150. Oh yes. Operation: Scuttlebutt.

[1StrongBlackMan]

233. Except no one has said, or even implied, that ... "luminaries", or otherwise. n/t

[Scootaloo]

234. Yeah in fact they have.

remember, just because you support the hatred, does not mean it's not hatred.

[1StrongBlackMan]

235. Please post a link to said comments. Thanks. n/t

[FSogol]

12. Nah, he's entirely correct. Just ask Presidents Kucinich or Edwards.

[Comrade Grumpy]

17. Or President Hillary.

[JanMichael]

47. Ouch. nt.

[MoonRiver]

13. I think their hate is far too intense to care.

But of course I would vote for Bernie if he miraculously got nominated.

[roguevalley]

61. there's the hate word again. This is just like class room elections

in eighth grade sometimes.

[treestar]

72. It does seem like hate

to use that put down about feeling sorry for you. There's where the 8th grade stuff started. It's gloating. The OP could have been simply happy they perceive Bernie did well in a poll. Yet he's still behind.

[840high]

69. You lost me with "hate".

[MoonRiver]

6. ...

[brooklynite]

7. You feel sorry because of...a straw poll

...on the Internet
...that only 1/3 of attendees participated in.

I'm sleeping soundly tonight.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. It was an internet straw poll?

I didn't realize that...

[hootinholler]

21. Not an internet poll

Taken at the WDP convention yesterday.

Are you asserting there was some boycott of the poll by Hilary delegates? That assumption seems little silly to me.

[KoKo]

51. Here are the numbers....and interesting to see Sander's support at the WDP Convention

From "Hoot's" Link:

Saturday, June 06, 2015
5:33 PM
WisPolitics.com straw poll: WisDem conventioneers favor Clinton for president, Sanders close second

Democratic Party of Wisconsin conventioneers backed Hillary Clinton for the party’s presidential nomination next year, while Bernie Sanders finished a strong second, according to a WisPolitics.com straw poll.

Meanwhile, Sen. Kathleen Vinehout of Alma was favored in the 2018 Democratic gubernatorial primary straw poll.

Clinton drew support from 252 of the 511 delegates, alternates and registered guests who voted in the straw poll. Sanders was backed by 208, while Vice President Joe Biden and former Maryland Gov. Martin O'Malley tied for a distant third with 16 votes each.

Clinton was also the favorite of activists at last year’s convention, taking almost 55 percent of the vote in the WisPolitics.com straw poll.

http://demconvos.wispolitics.com/2015/06/wispoliticscom-straw-poll-wisdem.html

[cheapdate]

166. Democrats in Wisconsin are among the most progressive in the nation.

There are only a handful of other areas that can match the progressiveness of Wisconsin Democrats, San Francisco, Portland, and a few other places.

Good luck to Sanders. He'll get my vote in our state's primary. I'll be supporting the Party in the general.

[brooklynite]

121. I'm asserting that 2/3 of the attendees treated this as what it was.....meaningless.

[hootinholler]

123. Ok, a 1/3 sample size doesn't matter then.

I understand that numbers have a way of changing. Hell if I was superstitious I would think this result is an omen.

So many who win this straw poll don't ultimately end up in the Oval Office.

[AgingAmerican]

258. “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win”

nt

[LanternWaste]

263. We often find those polls meaningless which do not validate our own biases...

We often find those polls meaningless which do not validate our own biases...

[brooklynite]

268. I don't...

...I crunch too many numbers on too many candidates asking for my support, and I'm happy to triage any candidate who can't show a path to electoral success. If a candidate came to me and said they should be supported BECAUSE of a Straw Poll (which the Sanders people are doing and the Clinton people are not), I'd show them the door.

You'll also note that I don't suggest success because Clinton is at 60% in national polling against her Democratic opponents. I suggest success because she's been CONSISTENTLY at 60% for more than a year.

[JaneyVee]

24. Feel sorry for Bernie supporters grasping at straws.

I support whoever the nominee is, apparently Bernie supporters don't.

[MuseRider]

43. Can everybody stop this shit now?

Sure, some Sanders supporters won't vote for Hillary and there will be some Hillary supporters who won't vote for Bernie. None of us on any side deserves this huge generalization used as a put down. Besides, it is simply a very very dumb comment to make.

[1monster]

64. Amen. The snark is getting disgusting. And, although it is obvious by my sig line

that I support Bernie, I've never said anything bad about Hillary. Nor do I dis her supporters.

Both sides of this little tug of war should work FOR their candidate rather than against the other's candidate.

What's that old song they taught us as children?

"If you can't post something good about your neighbor
Don't post anything,
Don't post anything,
Don't post anything at all!"*

*Slightly paraphrased for a new age.

[quickesst]

71. maybe....

...I'm not looking hard enough, but I haven't seen one HRC supporter say they won't vote for Sanders if he is the nominee. There might be but I haven't seen it. In fact, as to supporters here at DU, it's hard to imagine. I wonder where the line is that one will forego pride in favor of family and country. If a repug wins, it will be too late. As bad as Bush was, it will pale in comparison to what is in store if any of the current clowns prevail.

[MuseRider]

76. I was not talking

about just here. You really can't be serious to think ALL people in this country who support Hillary would vote for Bernie if he came out ahead.

No matter, this is a supremely short sighted, very stupid remark to make and a vile tactic that a lot here love to use. Very RW if you ask me. Anyone making and posting comments like that raises a big question in my mind as to exactly what they are pushing.

This always happens, it always comes from all sides and is the one thing that could put off those who would be willing to vote for the other.

Let's give stupidity a rest shall we? There is way too much going on than there is time to address. Stupid people or stupid comments just get in the way.

[quickesst]

174. Ok...

You got me. I did not realize that when you said "Can everybody just stop this shit now", you were talking to the entire country. My bad. I thought you were addressing the DU community. I hope you understand that you probably won't get any replies outside of DU.

[MuseRider]

180. Jesus, having a bad night

or just usually making snotty comments?

Everybody stop was certainly meant for the community here. My comment about there are surely people from both sides who won't vote for the other was meant beyond DU in answer to your taking my comment to mean just the supporters on DU.

Whatever, your assumption that I am not smart enough to realize I won't be getting answers outside of DU is uncalled for and a shitty thing to say.

You don't need to answer again, I won't see it.

[Jumpin Jack Flash]

122. Thats because these supporters are so sure about Clinton's inevitably

That they wont drop ther vote for anyone else. Ive seen it before, and it will happen again.

[quickesst]

173. I have seen..

...the same claim from many Sanders supporters, and many have made it clear they will not vote for Clinton if she is the nominee. I still have not seen any such statement from her supporters if Sanders is the nominee. I doubt what you claim. Logic, and odds would dictate that if what you say is true, I strongly suspect that at least one, I repeat, ONE of her supporters would let it be known.

[AleksS]

110. Your post made me wonder what the ratio is

Your post made me wonder what the ratio is of
1). Hillary supporters who would be willing to vote for Bernie if he wins
Vs.
2). Bernie supporters who would be willing to vote for Hillary if she wins.

I've heard a lot of Bernie supporters say they'd never vote for Hillary in the general, but to my recollection I haven't heard any Hillary supporters say the opposite.

While I am sure the numbers aren't 100% to 0%, has anyone done a (credible) poll on the subject?

[Goblinmonger]

74. But we don't have a nominee yet.

So one must still support HRC now?

[hifiguy]

99. According to some, yes.

And anything else is disloyalty to the party.

[treestar]

73. Could be temporary too

Right after a speech. And yet he is still behind even after the speech.

[bettyellen]

10. Good clip- shitty title for the OP though.

[Rex]

36. See reply #34

[NuclearDem]

11. What makes you feel bad?

Is it that nearly every Hillary supporter here would be glad to vote for Sanders anyway?

[Starry Messenger]

16. And everyone knows grassroots movements are built

by being patronizing. it's obvious who has never done any real world organization work.

[bettyellen]

52. I don't know if these ultra negative people have never done any real life campaigning or

If they'd just be really really shitty at it. Seems like too much time is spent concocting conspiracy theories and not enough thought given to outreach.

Either way, I hope they get their shit together.

[KittyWampus]

65. Real world politicking requires working w/ some people you might not like all that much

or agree with 100%. It also requires persistence and a longview.


In other words, it's not for the intolerant or the impatient.

[bettyellen]

129. And impatient and intolerance seems too common around here right now.

And it ain't helping. Not one bit.

[Starry Messenger]

117. If they really have, I'd be surprised.

There are lots of training manuals online, hopefully some of these enthusiasts will avail themselves.

[bettyellen]

130. Yeah, but there's no substitute to getting out there, face to face.

It's a humbling experience. But that's how you learn.

[Starry Messenger]

132. That's completely true.

I just didn't want to give out too much advice. Since I'm an object of pity, I'm sure there is little I know about anything anyway!

[freshwest]

290. Having done it, I'd say it would not ever work.

The patronizing we see online is not what people take time out of their busy lives to meet about. Each person engaged IRL work, except for the Libertarians and LeRouchies, consider the effort, money (for fuel or riding the bus) and the emotional investment of each person who attend events.

The LPs and LRs are the only real life trolls I've seen. They don't have anything better to do so it's a game to them, it's about ego. No one listens them, not because the ones they attempt to put down are whatever names being called online but because they have missed one essential factor:

They have no respect for the lives of those they are disrupting who are concerned enought to show up who time is valuable. It's a lot of work to organize anything. People show up to get something doen to better their lives and those of their communities.

It's just a sense of basic respect and empathy for others. That means one must believe that the lives, time, and ideas of others are worth listening to and doing something about. It's sorely lacking in online talks.

[MohRokTah]

18. I'm shaking in my boots because Straw Polls are incredibly accurate.

After all, the Republican Iowa Straw Poll in 2011 had Michelle Bachmann walking away with the nomination!

Oops, er, whut...

[JaneyVee]

19. Ah yes, the ever reliable straw poll.

Even with Hillary in the lead I would take straw polls with a grain of salt. National polls a much better indicator.

[mythology]

23. If this is anything like the Iowa straw poll

It's pretty much useless.

As a point of comparison, in 2008 Hillary won the straw poll with 38% of the vote. So by that measure she's doing better.

[whatchamacallit]

25. I took a gander at Hillary Mojo

Seems cool, but a bit of a ghosttown. Maybe I didn't get how to navigate it. Anyhoo, Go Bernie!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. President Ben Carson says hi

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/dr-ben-carson-wins-oklahoma-straw-poll

[upaloopa]

27. Hillary won no surprise

You don't need to feel bad for the winners feel bad for yourself because this is the way it will be to the end of Bernie's campaign.

[RandySF]

28. Ask President Bacmann about straw polls.

Or President Carson, while you are at it.

[FlatBaroque]

32. Before this is done, Bernie will have brought one million people into DC

what Obama pissed away, Bernie will grab and hold today

[Metric System]

33. Opens thread. Skims the OP. Shakes head. Closes thread.

[hootinholler]

35. Well then how did the reply happen?

Did you open it again?

[Metric System]

39. In between shaking my head and closing the thread. I assumed that would be understood.

[Rex]

34. So when you are standing there looking at HRC on the voting ballot next November

will you be feeling sorry for yourself then?

[hootinholler]

37. Not at all

If that comes to pass, and I seriously doubt it will, I'll be feeling sorry for my granddaughter.

[Rex]

38. I don't doubt it, I think HRC is going to win the primaries and be the next POTUS.

Even thought I am a Bernie supporter. I think she has that much pull.

[MoonRiver]

40. This Hillary supporter agrees.

And I think she will be a wonderful president, for the 99%.

[Rex]

44. She will be.

If anyone takes the time to go look at her record - she and Bernie Sanders voted almost the same while she was in Congress. They are both progressives and I am PROUD that our candidates are working on ideas to help fix our broken social safety net.

Obama has done the best he can with the horrible system Bush/Cheney left him...now our next Dem POTUS can continue to fix the mess, the GOP really does do that much damage.

The only way the 99% will not benefit, is if a republican wins the WH...and we have to do everything we can to make sure that doesn't happen.

IMO.

[lunamagica]

189. I think it was 90+ (don't remember exactly) times that Hilary and Bernie voted the same. nt

.

[840high]

70. Nope. I'll write in Sanders name.

[MissDeeds]

82. Same here n/t

[corkhead]

41. Spot on, You even threw in some Random Thoughts at the end. Kudos

[Octafish]

42. Bernie acts so strange, hootinholler.

It's like he was a, a Democrat.

[Rex]

46. Actually I like the fact that he is an Independent. He makes no jokes about how he feels toward our

'paid for' political system. I do believe if anyone can shore in Wall Street...it is Bernie Sanders. I was originally on board with Warren, but would rather her not lose her seat in Congress right now while she is fighting Wall Street bankers.

[Octafish]

48. Norway.

Where the prisoners live better than most of the 99 percent here.

[Rex]

50. Well you know how people get when we compare our quality of life to places like Sweden

and Norway...but yeah, socialism works great with regulated capitalism, maybe one decade America will have the pleasure to find that out.

[Octafish]

54. Well, the hate coming at FDR Democrats these days is full throated and blood boiling.

Guy understood that if the Greedheads keep it all to themselves, they sooner or later end up losing their heads.

So....the Works Project Administration. And the rich kept their stuff and their hatracks.

Now, in a very different time in terms of wealth*, things are much the same. People who want PROGRESS are labeled commies, pinkos, democrat...etc. And no one notices that those doing the hollering and name calling are the chief beneficiaries of government policy and largess, the Have Mores. Except now they have the Supercomputerized Drone Police State going for them and its robotic claw is keeping the pendulum stuck on "Right."

* "Seven-eighths (7/8) of ALL wealth in human history created since 1980." -- David Stockman

[Rex]

56. I hear that, but then again the vitriol aimed at FDR by some here made me look at their other

posts and replies. Changed my mind about some of our dear DUers and what they state to believe in.

FDR did a lot of things wrong, but he was the best POTUS of the last century...sorry to all those here that love to talk about his 'fangs and claws dripping in innocent blood'. I guess those kind of comments shouldn't surprise me anymore, but they did when it came from posters that love to show their liberal street creds at every given chance.

[bvar22]

270. Anti-FDR, Anti-New Deal, Anti-Social Security....

If someone is worried about "right wing crap" being posted at DU.
start looking there. The 1% and Big Banks have been trying to smear FDR & The New Deal from the very start.
Hearing that crap repeated by "Democrats" is a relatively new phenomenon .

[hootinholler]

57. In terms of wealth things might be worse than in 1929 n/t

[Depaysement]

45. Don't bother

Sooner or later, there will be an ambush and an avalanche of money poured into the Clinton campaign. And Bernie will be under fire.

You won't feel sorry for them then.

[DonCoquixote]

49. I like bernie, but

Do we really need to feed into the us vs them mentality. Yes, Some Hillary supporters do it, but not every one does. We do not need to stir up a glorified street fight.

[Maedhros]

88. Indeed. We're better than that. (Or should be). [n/t]

[MuseRider]

103. Agreed.

I don't think getting distracted like this is at all helpful.

[marble falls]

221. Good point. We don't want to sink to the level of political canibalism of the GOP primary 2012.

[Man from Pickens]

53. Hillarynevitableness

polls made it so... now that it's so, polls don't matter

submit to the choice that has been made for you

[Buzz Clik]

55. Really? Bernie's message is that he feels sorry for Hillary's supporters? Umm... no.

Those were not his words. How the hell could you possibly take that ridiculous message from his powerful statement?

I become more convinced every day that some of Sanders's supporters never listen to a word he says.

[hootinholler]

62. Aww fuck...

I didn't mean that, and I totally see how it can be taken that way.

I've edited the OP and hopefully I'm more clear.

[Sancho]

59. You do understand that Bernie is having fun campaigning without being attacked....

when the billion dollar budget goes after the Democratic candidate, it's a different story. Right now, it's all candy and ice cream; just say what he wants and no one is running 24 hour ads disputing Bernie.

Bernie is preaching to the choir. Down here, the only Bernie anyone knows is Madoff. Even so, Bernie Sanders has plenty of things that the repubs can use against him, and he has not been worth their time and money so far. They want to go after Hillary, and if Sanders helps them that's fine.

Hillary is doing fine - running a smart campaign and keeping her powder dry. I'll vote for the Democratic candidate, but I would think that Sanders is the least likely of the current 4 to actually run a winning national effort.

1.) Too many issues that are not winners with the independents
2.) No organization or money to defend election manipulation or GOTV
3.) Not enough ideas to get cross-overs from women, retirees, and independents
4.) Only strong on one issue: national economics - and has some problems with his solutions
5.) Not much defense over his known problems; certainly no budget to defend with
6.) Name recognition limited to Democratic base and the NE

A populist movement is possible, but MLK had an organization and FDF had resources. Also, both MLK and FDR were strong on multiple issues, had name recognition, and had solutions for immediate crises. I don't see the parallel at this time.

[okasha]

128. That's a strong dose of realism.

Add people of color and LGBT's to your #3.

[Sancho]

133. Yep...

[Fumesucker]

163. Not to mention hard working white people

[okasha]

165. The more middle and lower income whites we can take away from the R's, the better.

They've voted against their own interest in the last several cycles.

[Fumesucker]

167. Hard working white people are wealthy white people

Given the enormous amount of privilege white people have any white person who works hard is rich, yes?

[okasha]

169. Are you?

[Fumesucker]

170. Hard working?

Not particularly, I've always tried to work smart and now I'm retired.

[okasha]

171. Are you rich?

"Working smart" should pay off better than just "working hard," no?

[Fumesucker]

197. Part of working smart is knowing what you are working for

I wasn't working to get rich, you could say I more spiritual aims than that, perhaps some of that early training in the Gospels stuck with me, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for rich man to enter heaven after all.

How many people on their deathbed do you suppose say "I wish I had spent more time at the office."?

[1StrongBlackMan]

237. Wow. Just wow. n/t

[Fumesucker]

248. Indeed, there's a lot of that going around

The difference being I was joking and some posters are serious.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6797384

[1StrongBlackMan]

255. Except that post you linked to says nothing like what you are claiming. n/t

[Fumesucker]

275. I claimed that post made me go "Oh Wow!"

[marble falls]

253. Ummmm ..... not sure I get your point. I admit, I'm old and a bit dense.

[marble falls]

254. I don't support Hillary, but you can safely bet the farm that I WILL vote for her if she getsthe nod

[Fumesucker]

277. That's OK, I'm old too and often more than a bit dense

Those Crazy Kids call it a "mashup", I'm mixing different memes together like TCK do with bits of songs.

A little bit of privilege theory, a little bit of Clintonian rhetoric and you have yourself a hit.

[BeyondGeography]

60. Wow, sounds like he's inevitable!

Is this your first primary season?

[Enthusiast]

63. K&R! This should have hundreds of recommendations!

Yay, Bernie!

[jalan48]

66. Great to hear Bernie's message is getting out. Does Hillary have a message yet?

[Zamen]

112. +1

[Damansarajaya]

68. The other sad fact for Hillary folks is she's giving them nothing.

The last thing I heard from her was some bizarre joke about already knowing how to color her hair, which caused the flunkies on stage to just about wet themselves while feigning gales of laughter.

Nothing comes of nothing . . .

[okasha]

134. You missed the voting rights speech in Houston?

You've missed her constant support for women, children and LGBT's, from her years as First Lady to the present?

Wakey-wakey!

[Damansarajaya]

138. Who signed DOMA again? nt

[okasha]

140. Not Hillary.

Hey, how many Pride parades has Bernie marched in? Got any good pics?

[Damansarajaya]

143. Bernie isn't into empty gestures and rhetoric.

He's into fighting for equal rights.

He's the real deal.

[okasha]

148. How many Pride parades has he marched in? Got any good pics?

[Damansarajaya]

199. Marching is good. This is a helluva lot better:

"Sanders in 1996 was one of only 67 House members who voted against the so-called Defense of Marriage Act, which denied federal benefits to gay spouses. He is a cosponsor of Senate legislation to repeal the law and he joined other members of Congress in a friend-of-the-court brief urging justices to void the discriminatory statute."

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/supreme-court-victories-for-gay-marriage

And here's a picture for you . . . the First Lady's husband signing DOMA into law:

[okasha]

202. You may have noticed--or not--

that Hillary and Hillary's husband are two different people.

I wish he hadn't signed DOMA--it could have become law without his signature--but it was a tactical decision to preserve leverage with Congress, and I understand why he did it. DOMA staved off a Constitutional amendment outlawing marriage equality, which would have been far harder to reverse.

And don't try to tell us, as others have, that the Amendment was not a realistic threat or wouldn't have passed. It was and it would have. That's when states began passing anti-marriage equality amendments to their own Constitutions. Now the courts have been striking them down one after another and we can hope SCOTUS will strike down the rest. It would have been much harder with an amendment to the federal Constitution.

[Damansarajaya]

208. Look up "labored hypothesis."

While you're at it, also look up "Ockham's Razor."

And while you're quite right that Hillary is not her husband, in a recent interview, Hillary admitted that she was against gay marriage until 2013:

"That same year (2008), Clinton ran for president while openly opposing gay marriage. If she is to be believed, she also opposed gay marriage as recently as 2013, long after a majority of Americans already held a more gay-friendly position."

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/06/hillary-clintons-gay-marriage-problem/372717/

Also, UNLIKE BERNIE SANDERS, Hillary sponsored no bills supporting gay marriage. But she did give a speech supporting gay pride parades . . .

[okasha]

209. Look up "I was there, Charlie."

Hillary has been participating in Pride events since she was First Lady, unheard-of at the time. Equal marriage has only recently become a viable possibility. Many of us never expected to see it in our lifetimes, much less see it successfully championed by a President or Secretary of State.

How many of those bills supporting gay marriage did Bernie get passed?

[Damansarajaya]

210. Post the photos. nt

[okasha]

278. Here are several sites that include photos, vids and articles

[link]http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2008/02/examining_why_baracks_mojo_with.html|
[/link]

[link]http://nytimes,com/2014/08/31/fashion/hillary-clinton-gay-rights-evolution.html?referrer=[/link]

[link]https://m.flicker.com/#/photos/davismcdavis/193486672/[/link]

[link]www.cheatsheet.com/politics/how-has-grindr-award-winner-hillary-clinton-changed-on-gay rights.html/?a=viewall[/link]

These and lots more can be found by googling "Hillary Clinton gay pride."

Don't know why these links aren't working. What I enter isn't all appearing on the screen. Do the Google; it's all there.

[Damansarajaya]

280. Did "the Google" -- what came up

was a ton of articles condemning Hillary for opposing gay marriage.

[okasha]

282. I will try to fix links later

or ask someone else to do thei image posting. If you search for those specific sites in the link, you'll find two pics of Hillary in Pride parades, a couple videos and a couple articles discussing her 2011 "Gay rights are human rights" speech in Geneva.

[Damansarajaya]

283. Well, then, she lied to Terri Gross

about not supporting gay marriage until 2013.

And that's what we get so much with Hillary--lawyer speech that both says and doesn't say . . . see her statement on signing the War Resolution to permit Bush to illegally invade and occupy Iraq for instance.

[okasha]

284. No, she didn't.

She's been supporting LGBTS for a long time. Equal marriage isn't our sole issue. I've asked a friend who's better at it than I am to post the pics, etc. One is a picture of Hillary marching in the NYC Pride Parade in 2000.

[hrmjustin]

285. I think this is the link okasha was trying to give you.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2008/02/examining_why_baracks_mojo_wit.html




http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/31/fashion/hillary-clinton-gay-rights-evolution.html

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davismcdavis/193486672

[okasha]

287. Thank you , justin.

[hrmjustin]

288. My pleasure.

[okasha]

289. Justin has very kindly put up a photo and working links

to more . I f you Google "Hillary Clinton gay pride photos," you will find several more articles that make clear that her support for LGBT's goes back a couple decades. They're worth a scroll through, and will give you some idea why LGBT's support Hillary so strongly.

[Damansarajaya]

264. Still waiting for the photos . . .

Since you asked me for photos, it's only fair.

Aw, hell, I'd settle for a news article reporting that Hillary marched or spoke at a gay pride parade before she started running for president in 2015.

[okasha]

271. Several to follow later. At work.

[closeupready]

259. Comedy gold! I love DU for the wrong reasons!!

You made my Monday, thanks!!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

146. Not Hillary.

I know the Bible says that Eve was made from Adam's rib but Hillary wasn't made from Bill's...

[Damansarajaya]

265. Nah, she just supported it up until last year.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/06/hillary-clintons-gay-marriage-problem/372717/

"Hillary Clinton didn't refrain from supporting same-sex marriage for political reasons—before last year, she earnestly believed that marriage equality should be denied to gays and lesbians. That's the story the 66-year-old Democrat settled on when NPR host Terry Gross pressed her on her views."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

276. Still waiting for the citation that the FLOTUS signs legislation

Damansarajaya (460 posts)
138. Who signed DOMA again

Still waiting for the citation that the FLOTUS signs legislation. I must have been sleeping when they taught that in civics class.

[Damansarajaya]

281. Interesting.

When Bill did something good, it was because "Hillary was right there by his side." When he does something bad, "Hillary had nothing to do with it."

Yeah, I see how it works for you folks now.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

147. You are my hero... Your Native American woman riff was the funniest thing I ever read ...

[okasha]

151. Thanks! We do try not to be stereotypically stoic all the time.

Somebody got bent out of shape by it, though, and I wound up in stir for a couple days.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

156. It didn't deserve a hide...Blame it on the vagaries of the jury system./NT

[okasha]

161. Truth.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

145. She's giving me plenty...

She's made three major addresses on Immigration, criminal justice reform and voting rights.

The other sad fact for Hillary folks is she's giving them nothing.

She's giving me immigration reform so my undocumented friends won't be sent back to Mexico and the Philippines and criminal justice reform so my African American friends won't be thrown into the hoosegow for the same crime that my white friends get probation.

[okasha]

160. Bravo!

[ashtonelijah]

75. I love Bernie Sanders, but some of his supporters are becoming as insufferable as the Paulbearers.

Seriously. I've held my tongue, but this thread couldn't be any more condescending. Some of you guys are becoming as annoying as the Ron Paul acolytes were in 2008 and 2012. You're going to turn people off from Bernie with this sort of attitude.

[shenmue]

78. Bingo

[Agschmid]

142. A candidates supporters should have no effect on who you support.

I "get" it. But I'm not going to give up just because of that.

[mcar]

193. Wish I could rec this

Welcome to DU.

[Dawgs]

229. Don't disagree that some Sanders supporters are condescending, but you have to be..

blind or a fool not to notice the same thing from some Hillary supporters.

Yikes!

[hrmjustin]

77. No need of your pity.

[hootinholler]

116. I prefer empathy

I don't pity or look down on you. This doesn't come from there at all.

Was the op organized poorly? Hell yes and I'm sorry I was less clear than I should have been.

[hrmjustin]

119. Understood.

[dlwickham]

79. thanks for your concern

[graywarrior]

85. Don't.

We're good.

[OhZone]

118. Bernie Concern Trolls?

Oh well.

[Thinkingabout]

126. The Hillary supporters are doing very well, we are very confident in Hillary and her

Position on the issues, she is strong and will be a great president.

[JI7]

136. I'm not a Hillary supporter but i feel embarrassed for those

Who make certain claims

[Agony]

152. … and many experiences

feel the Bern, plutocrats!

[NYC Liberal]

153. An Internet poll? Seriously?

[hootinholler]

159. Nope. An actual poll of where the Wis. delegates are. n/t

[NYC Liberal]

211. So only 32% (511 of 1,590) of delegates voted.

Not very representative of much.

[Hekate]

154. I feel your concern

[orpupilofnature57]

157. They have become Republicans Lite, Banal and acceptable .

[cheapdate]

158. Wisconnsin is a bit unique. It's highly progressive in certain areas.

Areas in Wisconsin are among the most progressive in the country -- matched only by a few places, such as San Francisco, Portland, OR, and a handful of other places.

I'm rooting for Sanders, but I'm just saying that Wisconsin is a unique place.

[Utopian Leftist]

162. It is difficult to feel sorry for anyone who

has abandoned reason. And I mean that, not as an insult to Hillary's followers, but as genuine confusion as to why anyone on a liberal board would support the more conservative candidate? Especially this prematurely in the election cycle?

Arguing that Hillary is more progressive than Bernie plainly demonstrates ignorance and abandonment of reason. And supporting the more conservative candidate when the election is still a year away? That forces me to question the true motives of some of Hillary's followers. Are they following their hearts and minds or have they been duped by some sinister, corporate agenda? Why give up on the hope for a true progressive as President, before he even gets a chance to demonstrate what he is capable of?

Give Bernie a chance. And please don't do it because you saw a sarcastic post on a bulletin board, either. Do it because the world cannot survive another middle of the road, "Third Way" Democrat-in-name-only President. We simply can't. Do it because you know in your heart of hearts that the only thing that is going to save us from ourselves is a strong, and truly PROGRESSIVE leader like Bernie Sanders.

[PowerToThePeople]

172. "why anyone on a liberal board would support the more conservative candidate?"

Democratic party is the big tent party, they even accept Republicans now.



no



no

[brooklynite]

181. How about, we're the supporting the more liberal candidate who can get elected?

That would be Hillary Clinton vs. whomever the Republicans put up.

If you'd like to convince us otherwise, why not give us a concise, hard data analysis of how Bernie wins a national election?

[Man from Pickens]

190. the assumption that Hillary can get elected is flawed

polls are painting a picture of a candidate already at her ceiling - with everyone furiously polling matchups between Clinton and various Republicans, one thing that stands out is that she never breaks 50% in any of them. Already at 100% effective name recognition, there are no new voters for her to court. In particular she does quite poorly with independents, which is odd for a candidate with a centrist reputation.

[Dawgs]

231. Great post.

What you wrote should scare ALL Democrats.

[Dawgs]

230. Sorry, but only a fool would think Hillary has a better shot than Sanders.

And, it's impossible to come up with data for either candidate on how they will win a national election.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

241. The odds makers and the entire gambling public must be fools

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/us-politics/us-presidential-election-2016/winner


HRC is essentially even money at every board and Senator Sanders is anywhere from a 33-1 to 66-1 underdog

Respectfully, if you are going to respond please don't ask me to dismiss the oddsmaker and the collective gambling public because a random internet poster possesses better predictive capabilities.

Hillary will have money, organization, and enthusiastic support from the Obama coalition - African Americans, Latinos, Asians, the glbtq community, and young folks. She is not counting on disaffected intellectuals or those that fancy themselves as such to get elected.

[Dawgs]

242. LOL!!

I wonder what those oddsmakers and gamblers were saying of Hillary and Obama in June of 2007. You have any data for that?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

245. LOL

If I had your confidence and your money I would go to that site and turn $20,000.00 into $1,320,000.00.


You want to know what's LOL-somebody suggesting Bernie Sanders is a proxy for Barack Obama. It's like suggesting Andre Iguodala is a proxy for LeBron James because they are both professional basketball players.

[Dawgs]

260. What will that say about Hillary when she will have lost to both of them?

And, you're right. Bernie is quite different than Obama. He has ideas-not just hope and enthusiasm.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

274. Way to casually dismiss the achievements of the first black president.

And, you're right. Bernie is quite different than Obama. He has ideas-not just hope and enthusiasm.

Way to casually dismiss the achievements of the first black president. As to your query that's as likely as me beating Wlad Klitschko to be the heavyweight champion of the world.


Oh, the obligatory bookmark this post.

[Dawgs]

279. We'll see who actually wins, and there was no bigger supporter for Obama on DU than me.

Do a search in 2007-2008 if you want. I bought into the hope and change and he failed to deliver. It has nothing to do with him being the first black president.

[Jumpin Jack Flash]

256. You're supporting a candidate that has been campaigning since 1994, 100% name recognition

and she's already on her way down from whatever peak she had now that there are four identifiable candidates for the Democratic nomination for the President of the United States, and you think she's going to get higher numbers?

Welcome to reality, and it will not be pretty, once the summer of visibility for all candidates are over, and voters start to get interested on what they have to say and prove who's the better candidate that can truly translate to a President.

[6000eliot]

176. Why don't you embroider your concern for Hillary onto a throw pillow,

then she can place it on the sofa in the Oval Office once she's elected.

[OKNancy]

179. OMG... that is the best post of the day!!!

[winter is coming]

184. Do Bernie a favor. Don't support him this way.

Passive aggressive clickbait posts are a piss-poor way to convince people your candidate is better.

[mcar]

194. +1000

[McCamy Taylor]

200. Sanders can not win the general.

But I don't feel sorry for his supporters. The Democratic Primary is lots of fun for everyone. In fact, those whose candidates do not win the primary get to have lots of fun over the next four years talking about how their guy would have done better than the eventual nominee.

[Joe Turner]

204. Maybe not but America does deserve a real choice in this election

After decades of cola-war candidates. If the American people collectively choose the republican then they have to live with the consequences...and all the misery it entails.

[brooklynite]

205. I'm sorry, but I'm not prepared to accept a loss for the sake of "principle"

I'm sorry that you may not get everything you want in a candidate, but electing a Republican has real-world implications, and I'll work to put up the candidate that's best able to beat them.

[Jumpin Jack Flash]

266. Principle will beat personality cult every time..

And yes, Bernie has principles and will lead the people out of the right-wing quagmire that we're in.

[brooklynite]

267. ...if he gets elected....

...which nobody has yet offered a convincing pathway to.

[Joe Turner]

201. Absolutely Great Message

This message will sell readily because it has the ring of truth that people of all walks of life see every day.

[SheilaT]

203. I don't feel at all bad for Hillary supporters.

They have been saying to the rest of us: Sit down, shut up, and vote for Hillary because She's Inevitable.

Umm, she was inevitable in 2008. So why aren't we in the final years of her second term?

She is certainly entitled to run again. She is NOT entitled to inevitability. If she makes it through the primary season and is our nominee, then great. But please stop trying to shut down any and all challengers.

Oh, and the notion that She Is The Only One Who Can Possibly Win The General Election? That's pure fantasy. Plus, it overlooks various genuine drawbacks to her campaign.

In no special order:

1. Just because she's a woman. Excuse me? While I, a 66 year old woman, would truly love to see a woman President in my lifetime, please do not think that all women in this country will automatically vote for the very first woman who is a nominee for President. Lots of things come into play here. Not the least of which is that not all women will cross party lines to vote for the first female Presidential nominee. If you think they will, you are living under a large rock. There are plenty of people out there who won't vote for a Democrat. And there are plenty out there who sincerely don't think women belong in politics.

2. Her baggage. I have often heard it said that she's essentially bullet-proof because of the 2008 campaign. Are you out of your little tiny minds? Her baggage just gets heavier. Benghazi, which while truly a pile of horse shit, will come back to haunt her. Don't get me wrong. While I'm not a fan of Hillary's, I know that the Benghazi crap is truly crap, but don't think for a minute that it won't be brought up incessantly. Bill's infidelities. Shouldn't matter, I absolutely agree. But they will be brought up to suggest that she's unqualified to be President.

3. Her age. Possibly unfair, but it will be an issue nonetheless. She more than looks her age (unlike Elizabeth Warren, who alas is not running) and with women that hurts. More to the point, she seems old.

4. Her ties to the past. If we elect Hillary Clinton, we will have NOTHING new since her husband's administration. And we need new ideas and new people more than ever before.

5. Bill. He's the elephant in the room. He was, for the most part, a very good President. We had amazing prosperity and job growth while he was in office. He has various personal flaws, that ought not to matter but will absolutely be at the heart of the Republican campaign should Hillary be our nominee. More to the point, can we really believe he won't be running things if she's elected?

6. Change. Never forget that most voters don't pay very much attention to anything at all, let alone the issues that so exercise us. There is a very common sense out there that after two terms of one President, it's a good idea to elect the nominee of the other party. Dumb, I agree. But that's because a very large portion of voters are truly low-information voters. We here are high information voters, and we sometimes forget what the real world is about.

[brooklynite]

217. "Sit down, shut up, and vote for Hillary because She's Inevitable. "

Of course, it'll be easy to prove that, right? You could probably cite several posts here that say that. So, why don't you?

Maybe a post or two that says Bernie shouldn't run at all?

How about some of those posts from Hillary supporters who say they'll "never vote for" Bernie?

You could probably do it all in five minutes.

Right?

[SheilaT]

250. Just go back through this one thread and look at all the smug assumptions

that Hillary will be the next President. Then go back two or three months and go through all the Hillary threads. I got booted off the Hillary forum because I dared post criticisms exactly like my ones above.

Of course, those blithely assuring Bernie will be elected are equally annoying.

[brooklynite]

252. So, any post that says that Bernie will win means he's inevitable?

This is a political blog. It's perfectly appropriate to opine on the electability of one's chosen candidate. YOU seem to be claiming that such discussion is being used to prevent Bernie from running. Still waiting for evidence.

[allinthegame]

206. Frank Bruni

Said it all in his column today

[Beacool]

207. Yeah, we are quaking in our boots..........

[newthinking]

212. I donated this weekend. I want to see his candadicy get every advantage it can!

[BlueMTexpat]

215. Thanks for your concern.

I like Bernie very much and I love what he is saying. I also love that he is a Dem candidate.

But right now, I'm all in for Hillary and I don't feel bad at all about it.

So thanks for the invite, but as I have always stated, I'll be staying right where I am until there is a Dem nominee other than Hillary in 2016. Then I will wholeheartedly support that candidate.

I don't blow hot and cold on a momentary or daily basis and there are a LOT of Hillary supporters just like me. We're here for the long-term.

[historian]

219. Hilllary

I don't think she stands a choice only because she is a woman. We are not evolved sufficiently to elect a women even though the world has had many excellent leaders who were (are) influential leaders. Germany, one of the leading economies in the world is led by a woman! We have had Golda Meier, Indira Gandhi and so on.

[djean111]

238. We have also had Margaret Thatcher. Ruthless, austerity-loving hawk Margaret Thatcher.

In today's American political world, we have Michele Bachmann, we have Carly Fiorina, we have many female politicians that are irredeemably (IMO) Not Good For People.

This is why gender is not even on my list of reasons to vote for someone. Plus, I worked in the IT field for about 35/40 years, started when wimmen were begrudgingly allowed to be programmers, but still had to fill in for the secretary, and so on. Over the years things got better. But I have worked for male managers and female managers, and found that I could not predict how good and fair they were going to be, based on gender. In fact, the worst female managers I had were bad because they felt they had to be just like the really bad male managers. Those are the scary ones.

[randome]

236. You are so far off the mark, it's incredible.

What you fail to grasp is that the vast majority of Hillary supporters are also Bernie supporters.

But, hey, if you insist on there being a war, have fun waging it. I, for one, will not participate.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[dpatbrown]

239. Message

How does the message get out to those who are very apprehensive? How many times do you think we will hear the word "communist" from the rich right wing?

[raouldukelives]

251. Well, I agree with the overall sentiment.

But the Goldman Sachs supporters are anything but scared. They have a lot invested in the corporate coffers and every dollar is screaming to ignore the damage they do. A Bernie presidency would put the heat on those mortgaging the future for short term wealth, that cannot and with the daily support of corporate donors, will not be allowed to occur.

[LanternWaste]

262. No doubt, Clinton's supporters will allow you all the consideration your obvious degree of sincerity

No doubt, Clinton's supporters will allow you all the consideration your obvious degree of sincerity warrants...

[taught_me_patience]

269. It's really sad to see multiple Bernie supporters in this thread say they won't vote for Hillary

in the general election. I'd feel really sad for them if they helped usher in a Republican president because they took their ball and went home. Not one Hillary supporter in this thread claiming they won't vote Sanders, if he makes it to the general election.


Full disclosure:
I'm a Hillary supporter.

[Beacool]

272. It isn't sad, it's infuriating and pathetic.

I will vote for the Democratic nominee, whether it's Hillary, Sanders or anyone else.

These people who would rather sit it out or vote third party deserve a Republican president. Unfortunately, the rest of us do not.

[bobthedrummer]

286. K&R#155 n/t