Just so we're clear, if you deliberately use the wrong pronoun

[NuclearDem]

to refer to a trans man or trans woman, you're wrong. In fact, not only are you wrong, but you're also probably a pretty awful person in general.

No, the trans* person in question being a Republican doesn't justify it.

No, the trans* person being involved in reality TV doesn't justify it.

No, the trans* person being charged with leaking documents to Wikileaks doesn't justify it.

No, sexual reassignment surgery and therapy to help a transgender individual live in the right body is not comparable to having plastic surgery to look like a dog.

Some of your fellow DUers are trans*. Some of them have trans* friends or family members. Your deliberate use of the wrong pronoun, whether you know it or not, hurts them. They shouldn't have to deal with this hatred from their fellow progressives.

Knock this shit off, please.

[Xipe Totec]

1. We agree. nt

[enlightenment]

2. Thank you for saying it.

Pretty damned pathetic it has to be said at all on DU.

[NuclearDem]

6. We didn't learn anything from the Chelsea Manning days.

Nothing.

[enlightenment]

8. Apparently not.

There is a lot of fear and loathing in the world - and DU is no exception.

[Scootaloo]

32. Well, the people at the point of that dagger in the back are all still around

And they all seem to think they can demand fealthy and obeisance from we their "lessers."

[Warren Stupidity]

3. Kick

[johnp3907]

4. Thank you for this.

There have been so many repulsive and idiotic comments lately.

[63splitwindow]

5. Why not?

Common courtesy costs nothing yet is so valuable.

[63splitwindow]

7. THAT IS why not call them their desired pronoun?

[niyad]

12. exactly. welcome to du.

[63splitwindow]

38. Thanks...

for that common courtesy.

[bigbrother05]

55. Off thread, but assume the handle is a Vette reference

My 2nd favorite model after the original

[63splitwindow]

59. Yep

[NuclearDem]

18. Seriously. If someone introduced themselves to you as Bob,

you wouldn't then turn around and call them Francine. Because it's not their damn name.

[calimary]

36. Sometimes it just comes down to something that simple!

Common courtesy.

This is a great line, btw, 62splitwindow:

"Common courtesy costs nothing yet is so valuable."

[63splitwindow]

37. Thanks

Definitely not an original thought. I'm not sure if I've heard it said exactly that way before or not.

[brer cat]

48. Well put.

Welcome to DU, 63splitwindow.

[brer cat]

51. Well put.

Welcome to DU, 63splitwindow.

[63splitwindow]

58. Thanks.

[Warren DeMontague]

9. Kick

Thanks for the reminder.

[tarheelsunc]

10. Perfect post, except...

the word "progressives" should be in quotes.

[NuclearDem]

15. The thing is I understand being in the position of not understanding trans* issues.

As in, not understanding the conflict between sexual assignment and identifying with a different gender. I even admit to occasionally fucking up pronoun usage, even when it comes to my two trans* friends, even to their faces.

But it takes a special kind of hate to deliberately do that in the midst of constant reminders, just to spite them for their associations.

[cherokeeprogressive]

11. Yup.

[TDale313]

13. Great post. Thank you.

Sad it has to be stated, but clearly it does.

[City Lights]

14. Thank you, NuclearDem!

[Kalidurga]

16. I am glad I am not the only one that thinks it's sad this had to be posted.

It probably should be posted once a day so people don't have the excuse they didn't see it. Of course they should already know this and not need a PSA.

[uppityperson]

17. k&r with thanks

[MisterP]

19. what about relying on gender theorists who've openly said transwomen are trying to infiltrate women?

[NuclearDem]

20. You can safely assume, after an OP like this,

that I generally hold all forms of transphobia in equal disdain, thanks.

[MillennialDem]

21. As a trans woman, they're full of shit. I don't go to "women's spaces"*. I honestly sit at home

and play video games and watch sci fi movies and shows with my girlfriend all day. Well, we have more hobbies and do other things than just that, but you get the jist of what I'm saying.

*Not that there would be anything wrong if I did, but this whole trans women are instruments of the patriarchy to infiltrate women's groups is truly tinfoil hat worthy.

[OneGrassRoot]

47. Wow, thank you for mentioning that.

Last edited Fri Jun 12, 2015, 12:20 PM - Edit history (1)

I was deeply immersed in various feminist discussions last year, for the first time in decades. So many subsets of feminism now that I can't begin to list all of them. (But please don't get me wrong, I do consider myself a feminist, probably a radical feminist.)

But the impression I came away with was how many not only exclude but are almost vicious toward trans women. I knew they felt few trans women had truly experienced growing up as a female and thus didn't know what it's like to be a female in a patriarchal world, and many are flat-out nasty about that, but I didn't realize there was a conspiracy theory that trans women are instruments of patriarchy, infiltrating.

Wow. That is so friggin sad.

[MillennialDem]

60. Yeah it really happens and it's ridiculous. There are even some who think

transition should be illegal even for trans people who mind their own business.

[Starry Messenger]

31. TERFs get banned here.

As they should, they are bigots.

[Scootaloo]

33. I'm not sure what a TERF is...

But I can think of at least one person who fits the outline that MisterP put forth who is most assuredly not banned...

[Starry Messenger]

35. Trans Exclusive Radical Feminists.

There have been a couple, but they get banned if you can catch them. It took a few years to get some of them gone, but it does happen.

[F4lconF16]

41. They aren't particularly radical feminists then, are they?

My opinion, anyways. You're not a feminist if you're not interested in equality for all. Screw that.

[tblue37]

46. +1. nt

[Starry Messenger]

57. That's my position too.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

77. ^

[treestar]

66. What do they believe?

They exclude women who were born men?

[NuclearDem]

67. Womyn-born womyn.

It's a backwards and completely nonsensical ideology that women who were sexually assigned as male at birth and/or raised as men can never really be "true women."

[treestar]

72. Thanks, kind of what I thought

That spelling I guess is to take out the concept of being a form of man (i.e. women are men in the species sense).

[Starry Messenger]

70. What NuclearDem said.

Also mixed in with a conspiracy theory that men are pretending to be women to invade women-only spaces so they can rape women. That's not a thing. 1) Trans women are not men and 2) cis gender men would not go to all of that effort when men can gain access to several other spaces for any purpose.

[treestar]

71. Oh thanks

There can be some people who are really out there !

[awoke_in_2003]

44. To what ends?

I breathlessly await your nonsensical reply.

[Brickbat]

50. Yeah, WHAT ABOUT THAT?

[ladyVet]

61. Infiltrate women? What are we, some sort of devious group of...

Shit. Never mind. To some people, I guess women are like a terrorist group, what with us pushing for equal rights and all. We must have an agenda, like all those gay people do!

I once had a job where I spoke to all sorts of people, including some transgendered folks. My habit was to speak to them just as I would anyone else, with civility and respect. From some of their reactions, it wasn't what they were used to.

To my knowledge, I haven't shared a rest room with a trans woman, but it's entirely possible. I tend not to be too focused on other people, so I probably missed it. I might be a little uncomfortable if I did realize another person was trans, but I don't think it would bother me much after the first second or two.

Also, what the heck is a "gender theorist"?

[yardwork]

86. They're assholes. Next question.

[bullwinkle428]

22. K&R. Very glad to see some ugly trash taken out to the dumpster earlier...

[MillennialDem]

23. From a trans woman, thanks for this post. Glad I don't have to deal with the pronoun game any longer

(I transitioned a little over a decade ago).

[NuclearDem]

25. My pleasure, and congratulations!

[brooklynite]

24. Let me be clear that I could care less about Caitlyn...just like I cared less about Bruce.

There are thousands on trans people going through difficult transitions that aren't getting any attention, because they're not on a celebrity TV show.

[Logical]

26. I think you mean "couldn't care less" nt

[rock]

28. But what if brooklynite were being sarcastic?

Or am I being sarcastic? More than likely I'm just crazy.

[awoke_in_2003]

45. But, maybe

Jenner's fame, and transition from Bruce to Caitlyn will inspire others.

[LostOne4Ever]

27. Big kick & rec

Bigotry like that does not belong on DU!!!

[xfundy]

29. Doing that is a conservaturd practice.

We're better than that.

[AwakeAtLast]

30. Sad that you had to post this on a Liberal website

But I'm glad you did. I have seen things on this site lately I thought I would never see.

Thank you!

[Spider Jerusalem]

34. While we're at it, it's "trans man" or "trans woman" (with a space).

"trans" in this instance is an adjective that modifies "man" or "woman"; you don't say "a tallman" or "a blondewoman".

[NuclearDem]

40. Thanks, I'll edit that in.

[F4lconF16]

43. Thanks for the info. Makes sense. Nt

[DemocraticWing]

39. K & R.

This has to be a staple of keeping DU a safe space for LGBT people

[F4lconF16]

42. Talking to potential roommates

And one is a trans-woman (well, I'm not sure--ze's yet to make it clear, and I don't know if ze knows zirself). When I asked zir what name and pronouns ze would prefer when we skype tomorrow, ze was surprised and said

I cant tell you how much it means to hear you ask that, im not used to it. Yes, please call me **** for now. I havent really decided yet but ze/zir pronouns work. Thank you so much, really. Im looking forward to talking with you too.

Call people by the name they want to be called. It matters.

Edit: whoops, pronouns. The irony.

[romanic]

49. Wait, pronouns?

What happened to just "he" and "she"?

[RandiFan1290]

52. Here's your sign. nt

[Jamastiene]

53. Thank you.

There has been some really nasty transphobia on DU through the years. Most people have learned to be more polite to transmen and transwomen, but too many still refuse to show any manners at all. Some people on DU are outright transphobic and flaunt the fact that they can get away with it, JUST to bully the T part of the LGBT community of DU. It is disgusting and rude.

[ladyVet]

62. I just don't get why people feel the need to bully someone like that.

I don't think I'm naive, it just boggles my mind. What is the trans person doing to me? Unless they rob me, or hit me, or call me names, or something like that, and even then I'd say it was because they were being an ass, not because they were trans.

Gay or straight, male or female, religious or not, darker skin or lighter than me, whatever that's different, we are all human beings and we should at least tolerate the differences, if some can't accept them. There's way more serious shit going on in the world.

[riqster]

54. Well said.

[davidpdx]

56. I agree and deliberate is the key

I have on occasion made a mistake not using the correct pronoun. Certainly if it isn't deliberate, the person who said it needs to be gently reminded.

[NuclearDem]

63. There's no shame in a mistake.

And it's usually pretty easy to tell when it's someone who either just doesn't fully understand it or just slipped up, or if it's someone doing it from a place of spite or hate.

[KamaAina]

64. The person you are referring to is munching cold leftover pizza as we speak

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=175527&sub=trans

He is an ex-DUer! He's pining for the fjords! </python>

[NuclearDem]

65. I saw that. Unfortunately, that's not the only one, even from just that thread.

That one was the most blatant when it came to transphobic nonsense, but there are at least two others there that should be gone as well.

[Xyzse]

68. I agree... Though I must admit that now and then I inadvertently make that mistake.

It is mostly in regards to one person though.

A friend of mine, she got married to her wife at the time, who then after 5+ years decided to have the operation to become a man instead.

Since I first known him as my friend's wife, I still sometimes call her, her wife then automatically change to husband.

One reason though that I still make that mistake quite a bit, is because when I talk about them, I tend to have to explain what happened historically with my friend, saying that she was married on my birthday back in 2000, with her wife who is now her husband.

So, now and then, I reverse, because for a few years, she would also change back and forth, so I am mostly confused... Like Jon Snow, I know nothing.

[Glassunion]

69. I have had to catch myself recently...

We were discussing the magazine cover at work.

When someone mentioned Bruce Jenner, I replied with a "he", however when mentioning the cover, I replied with a "her". For me I need to watch how the individual is framed and ignore it, if the speaker has framed it incorrectly.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

73. Dumb question: why the asterisk in trans*? nt

[NuclearDem]

75. It's probably not necessary, but I put it there

to signify the different suffixes for trans (-gender and -sexual being the two most common).

I haven't been corrected on it yet, and I've seen it written like that before.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

76. Ok, thanks

spelling wildcard, I like it.

[F4lconF16]

80. I like that style.

Cool.

[Eleanors38]

78. Another question. At one time there was an argument over...

Trans-genderED vs Trans-gender.

Are both of these terms inappropriate?

[NCTraveler]

74. K&R nt.

[eggplant]

79. Yes, this really shouldn't be so difficult.

You call people what they want to be called.

To do otherwise suggests that you care what's in their pants. And that's just rude.

[Dont call me Shirley]

81. K & R

[Voice for Peace]

82. thank you but also know that some people are just catching up, and they're sincerely trying.

[Lordquinton]

83. Thank you

For everyone who can't say it for themselves.

[ismnotwasm]

84. Plus a billion

It's wrong and it's cruel and it's disgusting

[SusanCalvin]

85. People are really doing that? (I don't read all of everything.)

That stinks. Behave better, whoever you are.