Should America be More Like Europe?

[Bonobo]

If you think so, vote for Bernie Sanders and NOT Hillary Clinton.

The below list is only a beginning of what we're talking about and really should include "not bombing the fuck out of other countries because we think it's ok." as well as "not treating military prisoners inhumanely/torturing"

-----------------------------------
http://www.alternet.org/world/10-things-europe-does-way-better-america
Things Europe Does Way Better Than America
Europe is ahead of America when it comes to healthcare, better sex ed and less violent crime.

1. Lower Incarceration Rates
2. Less Violent Crime Than the U.S.
3. Better Sex Education Programs, Healthier Sexual Attitudes
4. Anti-GMO Movement Much More Widespread
5. Saner Approaches to Abortion
6. More Vacation Time
7. Universal Healthcare
8.Greater Life Expectancy
9. Mass Transit Systems
10. Europeans More Likely to Speak Foreign Languages

[Recursion]

1. Much broader free trade agreements. More regressive taxes.

They fund their social programs through a regressive VAT and have much lower corporate tax rates than the US (and don't try to tax global earnings).

[frazzled]

5. Higher unemployment, lower median income and disposable income

Current unemployment (April 2015 figures) European Union = 9.7%; US = 5.4%.

For median/disposable incomes see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_household_income

I'm not dissing European countries--I love visiting. But for all one can like, there are many serious problems and issues that counterbalance the plusses. No country is "all that." And Bernie will not deliver Europe on a stick to us anyway.

[DanTex]

31. The regressive tax thing is true, but misleading.

When you take into account both taxes and transfers, Europe has an overall more progressive system of redistribution. This is because more of their taxes go into social programs which are redistributionist by nature.

[Recursion]

32. The distribution as a whole is much more progressive, agreed

The tax component of it is more regressive though. I bring that up to point out that more progressive taxes won't necessarily solve our problems.

[Pooka Fey]

34. Free college. Paid maternity AND paternity leave. Practically free health care.

Extensive regional and municipal transportation - trains, buses, tramways, subways - lower rate available for income reduced.
Guaranteed minimum income for poor.
Reduced cost housing available for the poor is mandated to be 20% of a city's new home construction (though not enough for demand)
Unemployment compensation for 24 months. After 24 months of compensation, a reduced allocation available for certain workers
Unemployment compensation for 36 months for workers over 50 years old.
Family allocations per child for all citizens (regardless of income) to support cost of children.
A back to school dividend paid in September of around €200 per child for new clothes and expenses
Free daycare (though not enough space available to meet demand)
2-4 weeks paid yearly vacations for full-time workers.

The VAT on purchases is more than compensated, (i.e. reimbursed) to the poor to make up for what you characterize as its "regressive" nature.

[Recursion]

66. Which is why I'm for it

And why I think the progressivity of a tax system isn't a good measure of its utility.

[yeoman6987]

2. I think we became a country to leave Europe

We can take a few of their positives and still be the United States. A lot of immigrants left Euripe for a reason.

[delrem]

3. Perhaps a problem is that the US always thinks it has to be a "leader".

So OK, some US politicians say that they've "evolved" to a position that any progressive European/Canadian/anycountry figured out decades ago, those politicians have to present themselves as always having been "world leaders" on the position. Not accept a #2 or lower spot because they represent the USA, so can't accept that maybe they don't have a fucking clue and might have to learn something.

US politics is so fucking unreal.

[JI7]

4. do you know the history of many of these countries ?

<The below list is only a beginning of what we're talking about and really should include "not bombing the fuck out of other countries because we think it's ok." as well as "not treating military prisoners inhumanely/torturing" >

[McCamy Taylor]

6. Europe is full of fascists. Give me rugged US individualism

over goose stepping drones.

Have you been paying attention to all the violence being directed at immigrants in Europe lately? The old world is seriously f**ed up. It is one of the reasons so many of us left and came over here.

[Bonobo]

10. Actually, the "drones" are from the US. nt

[Pooka Fey]

35. Europe is more socially and politically sane by orders of magnitude

than the USA. Your assertion that Europe is full of fascists is untrue. Europe hasn't had any of it's young men go into an ethnic church this week and slaughter the lovely elders that he found there - which is how I define a fascist.

What violence against immigrants are you talking about? All the refugees from the Syria and Iraq are traveling by land to Libya and getting on boats there to head to Europe, add to that Africans fleeing ISIS in Kenya, Rwanda, Uganda and whatever I've missed. The Italian navy that is rescuing Africans/Syrians/Iraqis that paid ISIL- connected human traffickers 3K euros person to send them to their deaths? The EU healthcare system that is treating these refugees fleeing across the Mediterranean for free?

There is a humanitarian crises in Africa and the Middle East that is spilling over into Europe and you want to use that news item to slander Europeans.

I guess they're not working fast enough in getting Africans and Middle Eastern refugees set up in subsidized housing with a guaranteed minimum income. With a 20% unemployment rate and an economic and debt crises, the EU is worried about what to do.

Is this what you call EU violence again immigrants?

[Telcontar]

50. Wow, head in the sand

Try Google. Lots of native on immigrant and immigrant on native violence going on, especially Greece, Italy, and Sweden.

[underahedgerow]

52. Yeah, uh, NO. There might be personal confrontations but there is no great wave of violence going on

over here, I have NO idea where you're getting your news from, 'cause it ain't google. The taxi drivers all have their panties in a twist over Uber, and the truck drivers are defending themselves from the African migrants at Calais while they're on strike because of a ferries company doing a merger thingy.

The policing agencies are being kind to the migrants, but occasionally have to be tough when things get out of hand.

[Telcontar]

74. Guess I imagined the riots in France

[underahedgerow]

77. When? Where? The French Revolution? The last incident was in 2014 when Jewish owned shops were

attacked by a Palestinian group of morons.

Before that, in 2005 when people were protesting over police brutality.

[pampango]

75. There certainly is an anti-immigrant far-right in those countries and others, including here with

our tea party folks. Golden Dawn is notorious in Greece for attacking immigrants and the Swedish Democrats are a rising anti-immigrant RW force though violence is so far not part of their tactics to the same extent as Golden Dawn. Most Europeans, excluding the far-right nationalists are quite welcoming of diversity and immigrants.

Golden Dawn:

... described it as neo-Nazi and fascist. They have also made use of Nazi symbolism, and have praised figures of Nazi Germany in the past. ... the group is racist and xenophobic. Golden Dawn is also staunchly eurosceptic, opposing Greece's participation in the European Union and the eurozone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_(political_party)

Sweden Democrats:

... are a far-right, right-wing populist and anti-immigration political party in Sweden. The party has been described ... as xenophobic, racist and right-wing populist. SD is the only party in the Swedish Parliament without an integration policy. The Sweden Democrats in their foreign policy reject joining the Euro, are opposed to the accession of Turkey to the European Union and want to renegotiate Swedish membership of the European Union. Although SD strongly criticizes what it calls a Homosex Lobby, the party claims that it is not hostile to homosexuals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats

Every country seems to have a right wing fringe - bigger in some countries than in others - that rejects multiculturalism, gay rights and immigration promotes 'family values' and national purity. They are the source of the violence. Fortunately they are still a small minority but they seem to be growing and cannot be ignored.

[McCamy Taylor]

7. Dude, you realize that it is the utter "whiteness" of Europe

that allows everyone to "get along." It is almost as if you are saying "Hey, America, lets be more like a gated, exclusive subdivision that only lets in the right kinds of people and then we will all be safe and live happily ever after."

I do not want to be like a place that treats the Roma as if they are subhuman.

[Bonobo]

8. You sound really provincial and untravelled.

Europe is much more multi-ethnic than you seem to understand.

[McCamy Taylor]

37. Nope. I've been all over Europe. It's whiter than anyplace

I have ever been in the US.

[snooper2]

42. no, the US has more diversity than Europe

Look it up


A revealing map of the world’s most and least ethnically diverse countries

or clicky here

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/16/a-revealing-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-ethnically-diverse-countries/

[Recursion]

57. No, Europe is very very very white

Like, disorientingly white to me. Like, my non white wife gets stared at literally everywhere she goes, which doesn't happen in the US. There are a few non white neighborhoods in big cities but almost none of the "melting" you see in the US. (That said, I've heard London is closer to the US model, but I only really know the continent.)

[Pooka Fey]

62. Europe is composed of its Indiginous peoples: Celts, Saxons, Slavs etc

So it's hard to understand the sense in your comment:

No, Europe is very very very white

Why would it be "disorienting" to find indigenous Europeans in Europe? Where else would they be? They didn't ALL leave Europe to settle in North America, leaving behind a huge entirely unpopulated continent.

That being said, where I reside, French nationality is composed of diverse peoples: whites, blacks, Asians, Jews, Arabs, Roma, Slavs and whomever else I'm forgetting. There was a large immigration period to France from the Magreb (Morocco, Tunisia, and Algeria) after the war in Algeria, and during "Les 30 Glorieuses" during the great economic expansion after the 1960's. There is also much immigration from French speaking African countries.

France had much immigration after the Russian Revolution of 1917, but I guess that won't count in this context. I know that other countries in Europe have large populations from outside the Continent.

I guess I'm not understanding the "meme" that Europe is ALL WHITE. Many Americans tourists visit France and can attest to the truth of my statement, France is the #1 tourist destination in the world.

[Recursion]

63. Because the US is white-plurality (or will be soon)

whereas the most racially diverse European countries are still 70% white. And to an American not used to a sea of entirely white faces, that is disorienting.

[Pooka Fey]

64. Again, indigenous peoples normally live in their own indigenous territories

You haven't identified which of the 28 member nations of the EU you are claiming to have "a sea of entirely white faces". As long as that fact remains mysterious, it will be hard to have a serious dialogue.

Re: your 70% figure, where did it come from? Is there a link?

Regardless, the implied criticism of indigenous Europeans for not having a diverse enough population is just weird. What is the racial diversity of Hong Kong? What is the racial diversity of South America? Is there a figure?

Are we going to talk about whether or not the city of Mumbai is diverse enough?

You won't find a reliable statistic with which to categorize race in France and then compare it to the USA. There are no government statistics which categorize French citizens by race. French citizens are only French, they are entirely uninterested in the racial composition of their citizens, moreover they find it bizarre that Americans classify their own citizens by race.

Because we are talking about a different culture, this is probably impossible for an American to understand, since 95% of Americans think that the whole world functions like the USA.

[Recursion]

65. I'm not sure why you feel qualified to discuss my subjective response to Europe's racial homogeneit

But, by all means, opine away.

[Pooka Fey]

67. We're on a discussion board. Does one need a special qualification before discussing things?

[coyote]

21. the "whiteness of Europe"?

What the does that even mean? Have you ever been to Europe? This is one of the most cultrally and ethically diverse areas of the world.

Every country has its "minority" problems....Germany with the Turks, French with the Algerians, American with blacks/Mexicans....there is no perfect place in the world.

However, with ethnic/minority issues aside, there are many things that Europe do right in which Americans could learn from (be it health care, work life, etc)

[whatthehey]

43. Actually he (?) has a point

Even the UK, with its imperial patriation programs, raging paranoia over immigration a la UKIP and its 13% support, and long subcontinent migration is 88% white, far above our 78% (which includes Hispanics classified as white). No European country I'm aware of has over 30% non-majority ethnicities like the US does or even close to it.

Yes many things are better in Europe. Healthcare, educational access, social safety nets (not as generous as people think, but better than ours) spring to mind.

But crime stats can be misleading for one. Europe in my erxperience has more widespread violence, especially among the young. It is far less concentrated than in the US and, with generally fewer guns, far less lethal, but it is more pervasive. Unemployment is atrociously high in many EU spots, and both cost of living and material standard of living are worse than most of the US.

[Pooka Fey]

36. The history of Europe from Ancient Rome up through 1945 is basically one long war

with brief periods of peace at say, every 10-20 years, between each conflict. Basically just long enough to catch their breath and grow some food.

You are actually arguing that Europe's "whiteness" has allowed them to "get along"?

[Warpy]

9. Don't forget the maternal leave that's paid for in addition to the pre and postnatal health care

plus that month of government mandated vacation time per year for all workers.

[lovemydog]

12. Those are great ones too.

I've noticed that President Obama and all the democratic candidates for President are talking about paid maternal leave. We need a much better Congress to make it happen!

[lovemydog]

11. In all those ways, yes.

[davidpdx]

13. Yes, I do

But as someone already pointed out, people would have to be willing to pay much higher taxes. I have no problem with it. Here in Korea I pay into the National Health Insurance and part of the premiums are used to help the elderly and unemployed. You would (to my knowledge) never be turned away from a hospital if you were sick.

Most of the above exist in Korea except for #3, #5, and #6. On sex education I'm not totally sure, but I doubt it is taught in public schools. Abortion is illegal in Korea. Vacation time is given, but people are under such stress at work that it seems like they never take it.

Right now I am worried about whether the ACA will survive the court challenge and end up hacked into pieces causing my fellow Americans to lose their health coverage.

[Bonobo]

15. And you probably don't mind taxes (I am guessing) since

it gives back you and the people basic things like health care, etc.

Unfortunately Korea was aggressively converted to Christianity and you can see some of the negative effects of that in things like no access to abortion and sex education. From a religious POV, Korea would have been better off not following the west as far as it did.

[davidpdx]

18. Yes, true

But the other issue with abortion was sex selection which for years messed up the ratio of boys and girls. That is in essence playing "god" if you will. Thankfully the younger generation doesn't think like that anymore but there have been some costs associated with the practice for Korea.

[MFrohike]

14. No

1. Coup de tat engineered by core countries (see 2011 Greece and Italy).

2. Adherence to a failed monetary standard (see Euro).

3. Severe lack of democratic accountability at the EU level.

4. No easy means of fiscal transfers to offset core country's mercantilist trade policies (see Germany).

5. Most corrupt financial sector in the world (see the City of London).

6. Universal health care being phased out (see privatization of NHS).

7. Most corrupt banks in the world (see HSBC, RBC, Deutsche Bank).

8. Rabid xenophobia (I'm not sure who's worse on this one, it's probably a draw).

9. Ignorant, short-termist neo-liberal leadership (I probably shouldn't throw stones on this one).

10. Still ignorant as to what caused their most destructive wars and currently following policies similar to those causes (We're faily ignorant as well, but we have the luxury of having wars "over there" whereas they don't. You'd think they might have learned by now, since their wars always end up in their own backyards, but there you go.).

[joshcryer]

24. +1

EU does a lot right, but it's trending rightward yet again and toward ultra-nationalization and massive xenophobia. The US does a lot wrong, but it's trending leftward and should for the foreseeable future.

[DetlefK]

26. re

1. As far as I know, the governments of Greece and Italy were still elected by their respective people.

2. Because dissolving the Euro again would be catastrophic.

3. If more people were comfortable with a transnational democracy in Europe, the EU would have a different design.

4. Exporting stuff is now bad and Germany should export the profits it makes by exporting stuff.

5. BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

6. I don't know about UK, but universal healthcare is here to stay in Germany. Indefinitely.

7. Again: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

8. Europe has 10 million km². North-America has 25 million km². Europe has 50 countries (28 of which are part of the EU) and about 35 languages (about 20 of which are spoken in the EU). One or two days of travel by car can take you from Scandinavia (Denmark) to the Mediterranean Sea. Three to four days of travel by car can take you from the Atlantic to the Black Sea. It is customary to teach kids at least 2 foreign languages in school. It's pretty normal to run into someone who is from a totally different culture. Of course there is some xenophobia (xenophobia is everywhere in the world), but it's not "rabid".

9. That waxes and wanes. A decade ago left-wing governments were in charge.

10. Please, oh please, tell the Europeans the REAL reasons for their wars and how they are repeating them.

[MFrohike]

46. Ok

1. The Troika forced Mario Monti on Italy in 2011 and forced Papandreou out when they threatened to cut off aid when he proposed a referendum on austerity. Even Tim Geithner has written about what happened.

2. The Euro is a failed experiment. It's effectively the gold standard because Germany and the north won't countenance a true lender of last resort, necessary fiscal transfers, or recycling the surpluses they reap. Rather than have the option of devaluing a currency to fend off Germany's mercantilist trade policy, the south is forced to throw millions out of work in order to drive down wages in order to reduce their current account deficits. This is an insane policy and furthering it will be deadly.

3. That makes no sense. The EU is designed to be a technocracy, not a democracy. You are essentially arguing that the EU must trangress democratic forms and values in order to exist. That's not a good argument to make.

4. Countries that rely on exports tend to see depressed wages and consumption at home. If you run up huge trade surpluses, you must invest that money productively in your trade partners if you intend to keep selling anything. If you take all their money, how do you intend to keep exporting? This is exactly what America did after WW2 that kept Europe going. For all the hype of the Marshall Plan, it was the dollar recycling mechanism that truly rebuilt Europe and Japan.

5. I suggest you learn about the City. It puts Wall Street to shame.

6. Right until your leadership decides to Thatcherize the country.

7. Again, I suggest you do some learning.

8. Heh. Right-o. Too bad you'd write that right as Hungary is planning a wall to keep the Serbians out. Bit inconvenient, isn't that?

9. The socialists have been the biggest implementers of austerity policies over the last few years in Europe. You did know that, right?

10. Stupid trade policies, insane monetary policy, and a ruthless dedication to "fiscal consolidation" are slowly grinding weaker populations down. Your leaders are breeding the exact conditions that created fascism. They live in a fantasy land where everyone can have a trade surplus (which isn't even logically consistent), raising taxes and cutting spending magically produces growth, mass emigration (see Ireland and the Baltics) isn't a measure of policy effectiveness, and giving a wink and a nod to far-right parties that are openly xenophobic (David Cameron and his kowtowing to UKIP come to mind) is good policy. That's a recipe for repeating the same lunacy over again.

[DetlefK]

49. re

1. Italy is a fucking mess of small and smallest parties and Italians have nick-named their election-laws "bullshit". (Well, something with shit. I don't remember the exact term right now.) Ruling Italy is like herding cats. There is no way to "force" something on Italy.

2. Failed as he may be: There is no way back. An economic union without a fiscal union doesn't work, that's what the EU learned during the recession, but a fiscal union would mean less national and more european responsibility and countries don't like that.

3. A democracy only works in distilling the will of the people when they are willing to accept the will of each other. When people become too different in their cultures and political demands, then democracy no longer works because you cannot blindly expect this outsourcing of political power and you cannot guarantee the rights of the minority.

I have come to the opinion that the ideal form of government depends on the size of the population and the circumstances:
- tyranny for small inhomogenous groups and/or when time is short
- democracy for homogenous groups and/or when doing it right is more important than doing it fast
- For large inhomogenous groups... Imagine a vote between an abortion-doctor and 100 drooling teabaggers on abortion. (Imagine China and Russia having a say on US fiscal policy.) At some point, you can no longer rely on the wisdom of the masses (which does not exist per se) or the impartiality of the masses. Technocracy becomes the only practical way of making decisions: Only medical professionals get to make medical decisions. The result would be some kind of neo-aristocracy, caste-system or Soviet-system. The upside would be better decisions. The downside would be a more static society and less social mobility, eventually up to the point where abuse of power and corruption become problems; some safe-guards would be needed there.

4. Consumption only goes down if wages go down. If the government puts enough emphasis on a viable base of workers/consumers, exports aren't a problem.

6. That depends on the country. Germany has public health-insurance since the 1880s. (As ruthless as Otto von Bismarck was, you gotta give him credit for that.) Germany uses a mixed system of cheap, basic public health-insurances and expensive, lavish private health-insurances. The system is flawed, but nevertheless everybody has coverage.

8. Well, Hungary is a bit special. The whole country is currently on a Neo-Nazi bender. If not for the EU threatening with punishment, way worse laws would be made there. But Hungary is in no way typical for Europe as a whole.

9. Wait. Are you against the policies of neo-liberals or against the policies of socialists???

10. Fascism is a top-down revolution with private entities taking over against the will of public entities. I would describe the current sentiment, e.g. in Greece, more as a nationalism, a natural counter-reaction to conflicts with foreigners. As for the UKIP, I didn't follow the news on the UK good enough to comment on this.
But as a counter-example: Germany has seen the rise of a new far-right party, the AfD. Its platform is part anti-EU, part anti-immigration, part populism. They are currently polling at about 5%, but those might just be voters who want a Neo-Nazi-party without the baggage of being regarded a Neo-Nazi-party. The AfD is making headlines with party-infighting and with proposals that either won't work or nobody wants. They are a curiosity and the butt of jokes.

[MFrohike]

79. Yeesh

1. Ok. I'd suggest looking it up. You'll be quite surprised.

2. There's always a way back. Only fools pretend that there is no alternative when multiple exist. If a country decided to leave the EU, the only way it could be prevented is by force, whether physical or economic. I doubt that's the best way to promote democratic values.

3. Of course, you could also try a federal system. It can be abused, as can any system, but it doesn't have systematic abuse built into like an oligarchy, excuse me technocracy.

4. A lot of ifs in that statement. Experience teaches that those ifs come to pass about as often as a pig sprouts wings.

6. My point is that Europe has consciously chosen the Thatcher model of clearing the path for finance to rule the roost. You will have universal coverage right until they choose to Thatcherize that sector as well. There is no half-path to Thatcherism. It's all or nothing, as much of your continent is discovering.

8. Hungary was simply the most recent example. I could have cited Germany's treatment of its Turkish population, France's treatment of its Muslims, the continuing, pernicious anti-semitism, the widespread anger over unrestricted immigration, the characterizations of southern Europeans as lazy leeches, etc. As you can tell, I'm not hurting for examples.

9. You confused neo-liberalism with left-wing parties. Neo-liberalism is an ideology that overrides nominal party distinctions. My point was that the vaunted European socialist left surrended its principles and self-respect in a rush to bow down and kiss finance's ring. Just because an austerian claims he's on the left doesn't make it so.

10. Fascism is quite grassroots with a focus on the dark side of the human spirit. It's comforting to think it's top-down, but that just isn't the case. It's organized crime writ large. Sure, there's leaders and hierarchies, but let's not pretend it's remotely monolithic. It's a set of competing interests and individuals with few checks on their ability to terrorize the population.

I brought it up because it only flourishes when times are desperate. Southern Europe qualifies as desperate and Italy and France may be next to get the Greek treatment given their problems. Elites can only impose their deluded policies for so long before people rebel. Unfortunately, bad times tend to strengthen the right. So, through bad ideology and policymaking, the Troika and associated entities are enabling European fascism to make a comeback. That's a clear indication they haven't learned a damn thing from their own past.

I'm not only talking about Greece. I'm talking about the Finns Party, UKIP, LePen's National Front, the Progress Party of Norway, the Sweden Democrats. The far right is on the move in Europe (and America, too). It's a direct result of repeating economic policies that failed repeatedly prior to the 1930s. If the oft-quoted definition of insanity is repetition, then Europe currently qualifies are insane. Don't let the mere fact that AfD is a joke or that Golden Dawn is in chaos fool you. They won't crawl back under their rocks until people believe that their futures will be better.

[DetlefK]

80. re

2. And what would be the economic fallout for a country if it decides to get rid of the Euro and return to a national currency? (Not talking about active punishments or something like that.)

3. Please imagine a federal republic that consists of the US-states, the provinces of Canda, the provinces of Mexico, and all the provinces and states of south-american nations. Don't forget Cuba. All of them bundled into one federal entity. Would they get along? Or would there be endless and pointless arguing because nobody is willing to give up autonomy just so somebody you totally disagree with can have power over you. Would the south-american states be willing to be subject to laws made by Teabaggers and vice versa?

Assume a party of 10-20 people. When the question of ordering pizza comes up, try to negotiate for everyone to order exactly the same kind of pizza.

4. No... if you follow the logic of the argument, there is only one if. And governments that care about workers are obviously as rare as unicorns, if you don't count left-wing governments.

6. That's a lot of "ifs".

8. You are mixing lots of different phenomena here.

10. I take, you have a better solution for Greece? A solution that will combat the greek habit of tax-evasion, corruption, red tape and cooking books? A solution that will allow lenders to get their money back?
There is not a fucking chance in hell that simply giving Greece the money to grow itself out of debt would have worked. Greece had aaaaaaall the money in the years before the recession. And what happened to aaaaaall the money? Why didn't it make the greek economy strong?

[coyote]

16. The tax argument is bullshit

Last edited Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:29 AM - Edit history (1)

I guarantee that American pay more taxes or more out of pocket expenses in the end than Europeans. Between your Federal taxes, state taxes, property taxes, excise taxes on cars, over the top expensive crap health care, and $40,000 dollar year Universities....I am 99% positive Europeans pay less in the long term.

I lived in the United States for 30 years, and Germany for the last 15 years. My quality of life is far superior in Germany (6 weeks vacation, 38 hour work week, high quality health care, free university education). If that is the definition of Socialism, please give me more of it.

Americans just don't realize how bad they have it because they have not experienced anything else.

[Bonobo]

17. Thanks, Coyote. Any comments to the above poster who said it is only because everyone is white? nt

[dreamnightwind]

22. Thanks

Also a huge percentage of our taxes goes to paying for the world's largest (and most unnecessary to its citizens) military. The global corporations have got the U.S. taxpayer footing the bill, and U.S. citizens losing their legs and lives, engaging in corporate resource wars, occupations, and "advisory roles" all over the planet. The few security risks we actually face are just blowback from our military happening to be in everyone else's countries.

edit to add: the costs are even higher, of course, we have our entire cultural psyche infected with a violent and authoritarian mindset by all the militarism, homeless vets, PTSD, gun worship, a highly militarized police and surveillance state to keep a lid on all of it should the people get any ideas of doing things differently, and of course the most citizens incarcerated of any nation in the world while we fetishize our so-called "freedom" that the people in other countries supposedly hate us for.

[coyote]

30. That is the elephant in the room nobody talks about...military spending

the military spending is so over the top it 's disgusting. There is plenty of money to give everyone free university education, affordable healthcare, and to rebuild the falling apart infrastructure.

However, we need all that money for the military to protect from what exactly: our jobless economy, falling apart roads...I have no idea.

[Recursion]

68. The spending was to protect, ironically enough, the European nations we're talking about

Which, free from the need to have the high defense spending needed to counter Soviet expansion, were able to develop advanced social economies.

[Pooka Fey]

76. France remained OUT of NATO for 43 years, de Gaulle wanted an independent military

which is why France has Nuclear weapons and also why France under Chirac had enough political independence to refuse participation in the disastrous Iraq invasion in 2003. It was the Neo-Liberal UMP President Sarkozy that brought France back into NATO in 2009; this was by no means a popular decision with the French.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/11/AR2009031100547.html

That being said, nobody in the EU will deny that NATO and the USA taxpayer contribute to security in Europe.

Nevertheless, as recently as 4 months ago, France was intervening militarily in Mali (Northern Mali Conflict Jan 2013- Feb 2015) after being asked for assistance by the Malian President to help fight Al-Qaida backed Islamist forces (Boka Haram, Ansar Dine, and 5 other Islamist armed groups)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Mali_conflict

France has recently begun calling upon Germany to develop its military, so that the costs of defending the EU don't continue to fall disproportionately on the French taxpayer.

Re: the reason for the development of EU social democracies

Europe's commitment to socialist economies is the legacy of 2 World Wars in the 20th Century, it is a part of the political fabric of the entire conception of the EU. See Robert Schuman

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Schuman
http://epthinktank.eu/2013/05/09/robert-schuman-and-may-9th/

[Recursion]

59. I guess you've never paid Europe's VAT: 20% or more

Imagine a 20% Federal sales tax on literally everything you buy

[SoCalNative]

60. The VAT rate varies

depending on what you're buying. They usually break it down on receipts for you if you are paying different rates. Some items are at around 6.5% while others are at the top rate. At least that's how it works here in Amsterdam.

[Recursion]

61. Yeah I think groceries were down at like 12% in Austria

And then there's the restaurant tax. on the plus side waiters don't expect tips.

[Pooka Fey]

69. I pay it every day. I also get all my medical care for free.

Plus lots of other cool stuff. Nobody I have ever known in my decade in the EU has ever complained about the VAT.

Usually this sort of criticism comes from other sources than those on the Left.

[Recursion]

70. I'm pro-VAT but most US Democrats oppose it as regressive

Whereas I think the problem isn't the regressivity of taxes (which are more progressive than the eurozone) but the regressivity of our spending (which is significantly more regressive).

That said, the Eurozone as a whole has significantly higher inequality than the US, but disguises it by being divided into rich and poor nations.

[Pooka Fey]

71. I would like to see the USA adopt a VAT, along with a socialist style re-distribution

I really don't understand why that should be so impossible. Most nations have a VAT.

The countries which comprise the EU have long, complicated histories, and are in no way the equivalent of the states which comprise the USA. The "Federalization" of Europe hasn't happened, and I personally doubt it ever will. Only Americans and economists talk about the "Eurozone" as if it could be compared to the USA as one large single economic entity - I'm referred specifically to this:

That said, the Eurozone as a whole has significantly higher inequality than the US, but disguises it by being divided into rich and poor nations.

The EU adjusted it's criteria for entry into the EU when the former USSR collapsed, the former Soviet nations never had the economic strength of Western Europe to be able to participate in the common marketplace. They were taken into the EU anyway - the reasons for which are too complicated for a DU post.

[Recursion]

72. Americans tend to see things in monetary terms first

So, since it's a monetary union we tend to compare it as a whole to the USA, despite the hugely differing fiscal situations. That said, the divergence of US state fiscal positions may be leading the US to be more like the eurozone in that sense.

[Rstrstx]

19. It's very naive to think voting for Bernie will suddenly make us like Western Europe

It's like arguing that if we elected Obama we'd magically become a post-racial nation. There are certainly reasons to like him but really, who thinks Bernie is going to make us more likely to speak Foreign Languages? That's just silly.

[Bonobo]

20. Yes

And that is why I DON'T think that.

[treestar]

55. +1

It's funny how they criticize Obama for things he could not do because of Congress. Yet they think electing Bernie President will make these things happen. They still don't recognize Congress' role.

[Grilled Charlie]

56. You have to start somewhere don't you?

I prefer Bernie's agenda to anyone else

[NaturalHigh]

23. I'm curious how you think Bernie Sanders might reduce violent crime.

[Bonobo]

25. Great question.

But I can't pretend to expertise in the area.

Such a difficult question would require a great deal more thinking and study and consultation to even begin to comprehend, let alone improve.

[Kalidurga]

27. One proposal is free community college or trade school

educated people commit less crime. College educated people have less unemployment and commit less crime. He also wants to spend more money on programs for inner city youth to get them jobs and other things they need that will also lower violent crime.

[hifiguy]

40. There have to be jobs, though, and they have to pay a living wage.

Trade agreements - which are really not about "trade" and all about the free movement of capital, consequence free - are making sure you will need a masters to be a Starbuck's barista within a few years because there won't be any other jobs.

Forget alternative energy as well - these toxic trade agreements will let the petrogiants sue for loss of projected profits if the government tries to fund alternative energy or even research. See Naomi Klein's "This Changes Everything."

[Kalidurga]

44. Yeah I am not advocating trade agreements

and I have no idea how this is related to putting people through college and not have them be saddled with debt. There are plenty of jobs available enough to put everyone who wants a job in a job, we can bring back the WPA which ended because it worked not because it stopped working.

[NaturalHigh]

45. What about drug policy?

It seems to me that people who aren't hit with criminal charges for drug possession would also have an easier time finding jobs.

[Recursion]

73. How would Sanders change US drug laws? (nt)

[treestar]

54. Just a proposal.

Elect a Congress that would vote for it. It takes more than the President proposing a thing.

[The2ndWheel]

28. Like, break up into smaller countries?

All with their own languages? Doesn't seem like that would work. We can see the issues Europe has had in trying to break down all their borders.

We're not going to be more like Europe. We can't be. We're in a different context. Those countries can spend so much on social programs because we spend so much on the military. When various European countries were empires, they were spending a lot more on their militaries.

Look at the size of the population. We have more in common with developing countries in that regard. At the same time, we have a more mature, developed economy, more similar with European countries. That's why the US has a few of its own unique issues.

[RichVRichV]

78. I think you just answered part of your own debate.

We need to spend less on military and more on social programs, just like Europe does.

[pampango]

29. We should have higher, more progressive taxes, stronger unions, better income equality,

better safety net including health care, better social policies like vacation time and parental leave, gun control, etc.

Some of those may be "European". Some may be Japanese or Australian or Canadian or wherever. It is certainly useful to examine how progressive policies work in other countries and how they worked here in the past from FDR on. We do not have to 'copy' Europe or FDR or anywhere or anyone else but don't ignore history or how progressive policies work in other places either.

And let's not act like modern America is so 'exceptional' so that there are no lessons to be learned from anyone else or from history.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. They also have much lower rates of immigration.

A man and his family can come from Mexico, El Salvador, Nigeria, Kenya, Jamaica, et cetera and become an "American", him and his family can emigrate to the UK, France, or Germany but they will never be considered "Englishmen", "Frenchmen", and "Germans"


I even see that where I live in the SFV... My dad was Italian. My mom was Jewish and her family was from Byelorussia. There are a lot of Russians and Russian Jews in the Encino-Woodland Hills area...The Russians don't really consider the Russian Jews Russians but another people. In the good ole USA at least most people consider us other Americans.

That's special to me.

[KamaAina]

38. Saner Approaches to Abortion

except in Ireland, Poland and Malta, where abortion is banned.

[hifiguy]

39. In socioeconomic terms the answer must be a resounding YES.

[Renew Deal]

47. Some ways yes, some ways no. But you cannot win a national election in the US with that message.

[Arugula Latte]

48. Yes, of course. And affordable or free college education should be in there,

and we should slash our fucking military budget to shreds.

[treestar]

51. Sigh. It would take much more than just the Presidency. eom

[Bonobo]

53. It would require people stop lazy dismissals for one thing. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

58. The US should be more like most other Western countries...

Many would be way ahead of the US with most of those things on the list, plus there's also things that weren't listed, like sensible gun laws better working conditions and no death penalty.