This monument is an affront to the United States.

[edhopper]

[img][/img]

Three traitors to their country fighting for the enslavement of people.

[onehandle]

1. Yeah, but the laser shows on Saturday nights are awesome.

You couldn't go there on certain weekends when I was a kid.

The Klan had giant picnics and basically took the place over.

[edhopper]

3. And they will still argue

it's not a monument to racism.

[Kalidurga]

2. Yes it is

[Recursion]

54. OTOH it has artistic and historic merit

Unlike a largely ahistorical flag.

[DustyJoe]

4. Monuments, headstones, history etc

With all the calls to eradicate symbols, flags, pictures go thru cemetaries and remove 150 year old headstones and even dig up and remove remains. Rename military bases, revoke veteran status and numerous other ideas and suggestions to change history to shame an entire generation for fighting in a war a lot were drafted into while the actual slaveowners sat back giving orders. Does it seem a bit surreal in comparison to 1930s book burning, lenins erasure of history or Orwells vision of all control in what is seen and heard ?

Some of these calls are getting so ridiculous to the point the next thing will be heard is to sub contract ISIS since they are really good at removing historical sites and monuments.

[yardwork]

5. Nonsense. /nt

[edhopper]

6. What a ridiculous argument

comparing the largest relief sculpture in the world and the most celebrated monument in the South to headstones.

Can you say strawman?

And yes naming US military bases after traitors should be banned.

[Calista241]

7. Technically they aren't traitors. They were all pardoned.

[edhopper]

8. They fought against their own country

naming a US base after them is an insult to true patriots who fought and died for their country.

[Pooka Fey]

15. Traitors to Britain from 13 New World colonies fought against their own country between 1775-1783

The winners always get to frame the debate.

[edhopper]

16. Are there statutes

to Washington and Jefferson in England?

And the South won?? Or are you saying the US framed them as racist traitors cause "noble cause" yadda yadda.

[Pooka Fey]

20. Did England put up a statue honoring "Traitor-Rebel" George Washington? Yes, in Trafalgar Square

As for the rest of your post, your meaning is so garbled I can't understand it.

[edhopper]

22. I was trying to understand what you meant by winners framing the debate

which winners in terms of Stone Mountain?

[Pooka Fey]

26. In 1783, the Colonial Traitors against the British Crown WON their Turn-Coat Rebellion

and thus magically became Revolutionary heros in a glorious American War for Independence. Are you beginning to understand the framing?

Despite that George Washington was a traitor to and enemy of the (still existing) British Crown; despite his responsibility for killing thousands of British soldiers (Rank and file deaths in British service in 1783 was 43,633)*, England honored George Washington with a statue in central London.

Showing respect to an enemy used to be considered a marker of civilization, known as far back as ancient Rome.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=American_Revolutionary_War#British_and_allies

The only thing I understand about your posts about Stone Mountain is that you are proposing to blow it up, which is why there are other posts on the thread talking about the similarity to ISIS.

[edhopper]

27. No

that's a leap. Where do i talk about removal in any post? I was just pointing out how offensive it is.

You think not?

[Pooka Fey]

29. Riiiiight. Take a look at your post number 23 again.

Re Stone Mountain: I didn't even know the damn thing existed before 1 hour ago

Really cool how you consistently and without fail refuse to talk about that Traitor Rebel George Washington and 43K dead British soldiers that Washington's turn-coat war killed.

Tell me what you think about it.

[edhopper]

31. You got me there

I didn't notice the title and was replying to the bottom sentences of the post.
I will change it appropriately.

[DonCoquixote]

35. it is one thing to discuss losers in a war

It is another when they fought for the revival of ideas that need to be relegated to history's trash bin, like slavery, and like racism. Are you saying it would be civilized for us to put up statues of Adolf Hitler? I do not believe you would. Well, the St. Andrew's cross of the "stars and bars" inspired a young Austrian art student to design his own icon, based on a stolen Buddhist symbol called a swastika. He openly praised the Confederacy, and made the case that Germany had to do the Jews what America had done to the Blacks and Indians.

Again, one thing to show respect to enemies in War when the dispute was over who should govern whom, but by trying to simplify war to that point, you omit that yes, the Confederacy was not just a failed revolution, but an attempt to revive evil ideas that are still taking lives today.

[Pooka Fey]

39. I stopped reading after your 2nd sentence, Godwin's law and all

Thank you sincerely though, for the attempted lecture in moral values.

[DonCoquixote]

64. You stopped reading

which says a lot.

although I will ask the same question free of Godwin's law. If the stated aim of a group was to bring back and maintain slavery of an entire race, do we treat their defeat like any other war?

[Pooka Fey]

67. ...

I wasn't aware that this was case. Goodbye.

[DustyJoe]

24. Never thought about it

My Army brigade trained at Ft Benning in the 60's and lost 758 men in 3 years of fighting.
I don't remember even one patriot in the unit that had even a thought that because the
person the base was named after would insult their sacrifice or the sacrifice of their
fallen. Would be safe to say that it never entered our minds, not even today.

[brush]

10. They may have been pardoned but what they did . . .

is the definition of treason.

"The Constitution of the United States, Art. III, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort. This offense is punished with death."

There's no getting around it. They took up arms and fought a war against the United States.

They got off easy according to the last sentence in the above definition.

[csziggy]

17. Given the history of Stone Mountain and the KKK, it should be destroyed

<SNIP>
The carving was conceived by Mrs. C. Helen Plane, a charter member of the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC). The Venable Brothers, owners of the mountain, deeded the north face of the mountain to the UDC in 1916. The UDC was given 12 years to complete a sizable Civil War monument. Gutzon Borglum was commissioned to do the carving. Borglum abandoned the project in 1925 (and later went on to begin Mount Rushmore). American sculptor Augustus Lukeman continued until 1928, when further work stopped for thirty years. In 1958, at the urging of Governor Marvin Griffin, the Georgia legislature approved a measure to purchase Stone Mountain for $1,125,000. In 1963, Walker Hancock was selected to complete the carving, and work began in 1964. The carving was completed by Roy Faulkner, who later operated a museum (now closed) on nearby Memorial Drive commemorating the carving's history. The carving was considered complete[6] on March 3, 1972.

Carving and the Ku Klux Klan

The revival of the Ku Klux Klan was emboldened by the release of D. W. Griffith's Klan-glorifying film The Birth of a Nation,[7] and coincided with the August 1915 lynching of Leo Frank, who was convicted in the murder of Mary Phagan. On November 25 of the same year, a small group, including fifteen robed and hooded "charter members" of the new organization, met at Stone Mountain to create a new iteration of the Klan. They were led by William J. Simmons, and included two elderly members of the original Klan. As part of their ceremony, they burned a crude cross.[8]

Fundraising for the monument resumed in 1923, and in October of that year, Venable granted the Klan easement with perpetual right to hold celebrations as they desired.[9] The influence of the UDC continued, in support of Mrs. Plane's vision of a carving explicitly for the purpose of creating a Confederate memorial. The UDC established the Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial Association (SMCMA) for fundraising and on-site supervision of the project. Venable and Gutzon Borglum, who were both closely associated with the Klan, arranged to pack the SMCMA with Klan members.[10] The SMCMA, along with the United Daughters of the Confederacy continued fundraising efforts. Of the $250,000 raised, part came from the federal government, which in 1924 issued special fifty-cent coins with the soldiers Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson on them, but would not allow the politician Jefferson Davis to be included.[11] When the state purchased the mountain in 1958, they had removed the Klan and voided Venable's agreement by condemning the properties.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Mountain#Confederate_Memorial

That the completion of the monument and the purchase of the site by the state occurred during the fight for civil rights is confirmation that the entire reason for it was to reinforce the "pride" and "heritage" of the racist.

Aside from those points, it is not good art, has no true historical relevance, and is just plain offensive.

[edhopper]

23. Well said nt

Last edited Wed Jun 24, 2015, 12:06 PM - Edit history (1)

While i don't agree with destroying it, I think your last sentences are spot on.

[Spazito]

43. Excellent post...

I suspect most people who visit the site to see the monument have no idea of it's REAL history. I don't think it should be removed but a huge information tablet should be placed at any and all viewing points giving the real facts surrounding it's history. Education is always a good thing.

[csziggy]

44. That's a great idea - use it as a teaching tool for the history of racism

Since Reconstruction. So little of that is taught in many places in the South. It would be brilliant to create a new museum at Stone Mountain dedicated to teaching the history of racism, domestic terrorism, and the fight for equal rights that has extended from before the American Revolution!

[Spazito]

45. To me, educating the young on the real history of racism and racist monuments like

Stone Mountain where there is little to no knowledge of the real history behind them would go further toward reducing the level of racism than simply removing them.

When it comes to the confederate battle flag as well as other confederate flags, most know they are symbols of racism already so removing them is appropriate, imo.

[NuclearDem]

25. Bit of a difference between not celebrating those who fought to preserve slavery

and remembering the war.

The plantations and Appomattox can stand just like the concentration camps as memorials to what that "heritage" actually was, while the Nazi and Dixie swastikas can sit in a museum.

Nothing like a "just obeying orders" argument to really drive home the point, though.

[LanternWaste]

51. No doubt your bias is offended.

No doubt your bias is offended.

[NightWatcher]

9. Racists don't wear Stone Mountain shirts or wave SM flags

The flag is going away and most people are in favor of it, but if you go after Stone Mountain and everything that references the South or Civil War, people will see this as overly PC and a bit "grabby".

Don't turn a win into a public relations loss.

[edhopper]

11. I don't think getting rid of the monument

is even remotely possible.
But it is a symbol of racism. Just read the first reply.
These three men wanted to tear our country apart, why are they celebrated?

[MohRokTah]

12. Stone Mountain Georgia, the site where the Ku Klux Klan was reborn.

Yep, lots of heritage of hate in that monument.

[Art_from_Ark]

18. No mention of the rebirth of the Klan is complete

without mention of the largest state organization of the 1920s, the Indiana chapter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Klan

In the 1920s as well, there were Klansmen in state governments in Oregon, Colorado, Oklahoma and Indiana.

http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/ku-klux-klan-twentieth-century

[yeoman6987]

30. West Virginia had a precious member of the klan until

His death. Although he left the klan, I think anything with his name should be replaced with someone who never associated with that horrible group. And even if he was only in the Klan for a short time is no excuse.

[edhopper]

34. Byrd is such a red herring

You really equate him with the likes of Davis?

[yeoman6987]

41. I don't know. You mentioned klam members in congress and

I named one. I don't know much about Davis.

[edhopper]

42. I mentioned that Stone Mountain was rallying point for the Klan

where did i mention Congress?

Davis? The President of the Confederacy, the man whose statue is in State Houses across the South.

When did Byrd openly go to war with the US?

[FSogol]

13. That's what the Taliban said!

[edhopper]

14. That is how you see Stone Mountain?

as a World Heritage site? Really?

You don't think this is a more accurate analogy?

[img][/img]

[kelliekat44]

19. One man's "heritage" is another man's hell. nt

[edhopper]

21. And what is the "heritage of Stone Mountain?

what values and ideas does it represent?
What were these three men fighting for?

[yeoman6987]

28. Never saw or heard of it.

No loss to me if they change it.

[pogglethrope]

32. Then a hell of a lot of us are the descendants of traitors.

That's what our forbears who fought for independence in the Revolutionary War would have been considered had we lost.

The Confederacy was made up of states that had seceded from the United States. The Confederate soldiers fought for a new country.

[edhopper]

33. Yes

and let's look at the principles they fought for, shall we?

You approve of these monuments in the south, almost to the exclusion of honoring Americans?

[davidn3600]

47. I agree that the Confederate flag shouldnt be flying on state grounds

But this mentality among some that all symbols, statues, monuments, flags, etc of the Confederacy should be banned, burned or destroyed I find to be pretty disturbing, and it will bring about an environment of fascism.

This is what the Taliban did when they came to power. They started destroying monuments and symbols of the past.

It is sad to see how many people here are perfectly willing to completely disregard the Bill of Rights...and everything this nation has stood for in an attempt to erase a dark period of our history that shouldn't be forgotten.

[edhopper]

57. Not all

but in State Houses and grand public spaces should be looked at.

And the Taliban thing is so off. These aren't World Heritage sites.
These are largely put up to protest civil rights.
More like statues of Lenin and Stalin.

[Humanist_Activist]

36. Yes, and the principles of that nation were evil, it is nothing to be proud of. n/t

[csziggy]

46. History is written by the victors

Or maybe the survivors - there are various versions of the quote and various claims as to who said it.

The Confederates lost the war and now they need to lose the battle for public acceptance of the continued racism the descendants of those traitors have fostered.

An yeah, I have ancestors who fought for the Confederate side.

[Ichingcarpenter]

37. Don't make me come down there again

"You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about."

William Tecumseh Sherman, December 1860
from a letter to his friend, David Boyd - who was a southerner and a professor at a college in Louisiana - several months prior to the beginning of hostilities.

"I declare the confederacy Excomunicate Traitoris and must be purged!" -General Sherman


"You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out. I know I had no hand in making this war, and I know I will make more sacrifices to-day than any of you to secure peace."


He was the first Superintendent of the Louisiana State Seminary of Learning & Military Academy which later became Louisiana State University

[edhopper]

38. "War is Hell"

WTS. And there is no question who started it and who is responsible for it.

Why any of these people need to be honored, let alone revered above any other Americans is beyond me.

[KamaAina]

40. Simple solution: Have them fly REAL Confederate flags.

[former9thward]

48. Do you have a complaint with this one?

The memorial to the Confederate War Dead at Arlington Cemetery.

[edhopper]

58. No

memorials in cemeteries seem appropriate. Statues to honor the very essence of the confederacy, or their Generals like heroes are a problem.

[former9thward]

60. A distinction without a difference.

Speaking of statues there is this one of Jefferson Davis at the U.S. Capitol.

[edhopper]

62. and that is wrong as well

sorry you can't see the difference between a grave and a monument.

[former9thward]

65. The Confederate Memorial at Arlington National Cemetery is not anyone's grave.

It is a monument to Confederate war dead. Beginning with Wilson every U.S. president has sent a wreath to the memorial on Memorial Day. George H.W. Bush refused to do it. But Clinton resumed the tradition and Obama has sent one every year since 2009.

[philosslayer]

49. This should be blown up.

Perhaps ISIS is free this weekend. They are very good at that sort of thing.

[edhopper]

59. That is just a bullshit argument

unless you think it's a World heritage Holy Site.

Was it wrong to take down statues of Lenin, Stalin and Hitler?

Or would you compare that to the Taliban too?

[oneshooter]

66. Would you support the bulldozing and destruction of confederate Graves? n/t

[LanternWaste]

50. I'd hate to see any monument removed, replaced or destroyed.

I'd hate to see any monument removed, replaced or destroyed.

However, to better validate their historical relevance, simply add something akin to this to each and every one of them. At that point, they becomes less monuments to heroes, and more accurately, monuments to our historical reality.

[Recursion]

52. It's also the largest bas relief in the world (nt)

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

55. So don't destroy it, give it a makeover.

Like old tattoos that people put new tattoos over.

Just change the faces and the clothes a bit and make it some other trio.

[Recursion]

56. I'm hesitant to alter old art. Put up an interpretive element

It's important to keep a record of how we once felt. Same reason we shouldn't censor Huck Finn. I see that as very different from the flag.

[jberryhill]

53. MLK specifically mentioned it in the "I Have A Dream" Speech

[seveneyes]

61. Stoned and alone

[Nye Bevan]

63. How about statues of that Native American-exterminating, genocidal maniac Columbus?

What sort of message does it send to Native Americans if we tear down statues of Confederates but not of Columbus?

[edhopper]

69. So until we eliminate all statues to questionable figures

we can't criticize or touch any others?

The glorification of the confederacy is untouchable because others were bad too?

This argument was bad the first time someone posted it.

[AwakeAtLast]

68. I didn't even know that existed

until the Church Massacre happened and the ensuing flag issues.

Made me shake my head in disbelief.