Gonna drive by a reservation on your way to tell folks how racist the Confederate flag is?

[jtuck004]

We stand atop the bones of 50-80 million people, whose property and lives were stolen by this people and government. The house you are in may well stand atop the farm that used to support a now murdered families village. You may be here because their bodies were dug up as our forefathers brought cannibalism to these shores.

Seriously going to pretend your flag is better than another?

Sure, the South needs to finally surrender, and that flag needs to come down. But perhaps you, dear reader, need to climb down off of your high horse of self-righteousness as well.

"Slaughter of horses leaves lasting mark"

What many people consider one of the most brutal, inexplicable and traumatic acts in the mid-1800s war between the U.S. government and Native Americans of the Inland Northwest wasn’t about the loss of human life. It had to do with horses.

On Sept. 8 and 9, 1858, approximately 800 horses belonging to tribes of the area were slaughtered by the soldiers of U.S. Army Col. George Wright along the banks of the Spokane River near what would become the border between Washington and Idaho
...

Historians who argue that it was the cruelest and most needless of actions said that the horse slaughter was unnecessary because the end of the Indian wars was clearly in sight.
...
Horse slaughter was an ugly business. According to an account of an officer present, the animals were taken to the banks of the river and shot one by one, young colts were knocked in the head and mares were heard crying for their foals. In addition, this: “On the following day, to avoid the slow process of killing them separately, the companies were ordered to fire volleys into the corral.”
...

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2009/oct/01/slaughter-of-horses-leaves-lasting-mark/

I know, I know, you can't hardly hear the kids and people crying as they died from the starvation this brought them. So much easier to sing the Star Spangled Banner when you can't hear the children you killed dying.

BUT - IF YOU ARE IN THE AREA IN JUNE...BIG ART PROJECT

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/jun/19/mural-project-honors-tribes-slaughtered-horses/

...The exact number varies. The monument erected at the site references 800 killed animals. Some believe the number was closer to 900. Regardless, it was a brutal act that devastated area tribes.

Beginning Saturday, artist Ryan Feddersen will lead the community in creating a temporary mural to honor the horses and acknowledge the slaughter’s impact on local Indians.

Feddersen, who identifies as being of mixed race, is descended from the Okanagan and Arrow Lakes Indian bands and is a member of the Confederated Tribes of the Colville Reservation. Employing nine different horse stencils, public participation and liquid chalk paint (more durable than regular chalk, but still temporary), Feddersen aims to create an image of the horses galloping across the Spokane Tribal Gathering Place, the plaza at the top of Huntington Park next to Spokane City Hall.

“While this project has ties to my indigenous heritage, I don’t see that as a defining aspect of the piece,” Feddersen said in an email interview. “In this specific instance, the artwork is addressing an event that should impact people from all backgrounds, and it is equally valuable for any community member – regardless of their racial or cultural identity – to honor the horses in a way that pays respect to their life and to their role in the tribes’ livelihood.”
...

.


Spaces for 900 horses, people will be given chalk to color them in as they hear the story of the cruelty that we all profit from.

[Coventina]

1. Thank you. The anti-South hysteria on this board is getting out of hand.

Last edited Wed Jun 24, 2015, 03:46 PM - Edit history (1)

I mean really, one would think that anyone's ancestry originating above the Mason-Dixon line is without any crime or participation in atrocity.

News flash: EVERYONE IS DESCENDED FROM PEOPLE WHO DID HORRIBLE THINGS!!!

I'm very happy to see the Stars & Bars lose its luster, but geez, to read some of these posts....sounds like they want to bulldoze the whole South!!

on edit: grammar

[tymorial]

3. A friggen men.

[uponit7771]

26. America's south isn't hateful and racist like that damn flag is, it has hateful racist people

... in it but the north isn't going to chunk a clump any time soon on that issue either.

[Logical]

57. LOL, we all did bad things so lets keep the racist flag???? Nt

[Coventina]

58. I didn't say that at all. I think the Stars & Bars is completely inappropriate in any context but a

museum.

Please show me where I said otherwise.

[Logical]

96. Are you saying the south is not more racist that the rest of the country? Nt

[Coventina]

99. You know what? I don't live there, never have lived there, and have rarely visited.

So, I don't know.

But, I'm not going to make broad-brushed accusations against them.

I am originally from the Seattle area, and I can tell you that there are a LOT of racists around there!!

[Leontius]

162. I am saying that.

[Man from Pickens]

177. The South is not more racist than the North

The northeast in particular is horribly racist and it's most intense there. It is not uncommon to see strict and virtually absolute ethnic dividing lines down the middle of a street in the big cities there.

Racial dot map: http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/index.html

Look at the level of racial segregation in northern cities like New York and Philadelphia, then look at Charlotte and Atlanta for comparison - while there is still clear segregation in the latter, it is a lot less absolute and mixed areas are a good deal more common.

Any northerner who says the South is more racist is naive.

[JonLP24]

182. I heard some pretty bad stories about the area around Fort Drum

I was in Ft. Lewis so don't know if it was true but hearing from some people who were stationed with the 10th Mountain described the areas outside of Fort Drum it was common based on how their description of KKK hangouts. Caught me off guard as KKK in New York? as I lived in Arizona certainly a lot of a neo-nazis and still most racist area I've been around though the US Army had their fair share of racists, they were minimized. I think roughly 50% of the Ft. Lewis population was African-American. Here it is like 12% or less plus the anti-Hispanic racism & discrimination and not to mention the Natives. Can't say the areas are segregated but a lot of it here. Much better in Tacoma overall outside the base or inside depending on who you choose to surround yourself around.

[LiberalArkie]

103. I was born and raised in South Arkansas. Around a lot of racists and red necks.

In my late teens and most of my 20's I worked in NYC and all over the north, mid west. I chose to move back and live in Arkansas because of the people. I was raised to be a gentleman and to be nice to every person I met. (Thats being southern). In the north I was cussed at for waiting in a line at Macy's, the girl was putting her make up and did not want to be bothered by a customer. I thought it was just her, but it seemed that everyone was in a hurry to get somewhere (no matter who they ran over) and once they got there, they were bound and determined to not do a damn thing. If they could cuss at someone along the way, it just made for a better day.

One thing about the south, it was just about always easy to tell the racist people. Up north and mid-west and west, not so much.

The people in that church were true martyrs. ISIS and the Palestinians have something to learn what makes a martyr and who they are. They stood there and let the shooter shoot them one at a time. They are martyrs much like Saint Stephen. Because of their martyrdom a festering boil is being brought to a head. Something that needed to be done a long time ago. If when I was at Selma a question had been asked "We need 50 people to die so that the stars and bars would be taken down", I think 100 or more people would have volunteered.

[KansDem]

176. In his autobiography, Malcolm X stated he preferred southern racists to northern racists...

...because he always knew where he stood with the southern variety. Not so much with the northern variety.

Here is a similar statement from his interview with Playboy in 1963 --

PLAYBOY: Do you feel this is true of Negro civil and human rights in South Africa, where the doctrine of apartheid is enforced by the government of Prime Minister Verwoerd?

MALCOLM X: They don't stand for anything different in South Africa than America stands for. The only difference is over there they preach as well as practice apartheid. America preaches freedom and practices slavery. America preaches integration and practices segregation. Verwoerd is an honest white man. So are the Barnetts, Faubuses, Eastlands and Rockwells. They want to keep all white people white. And we want to keep all black people black. As between the racists and the integrationists, I highly prefer the racists. I'd rather walk among rattlesnakes, whose constant rattle warns me where they are, than among those Northern snakes who grin and make you forget you're still in a snake pit. Any white man is against blacks. The entire American economy is based on white supremacy. Even the religious philosophy is, in essence, white supremacy. A white Jesus. A white Virgin. White angels. White everything. But a black Devil, of course. The "Uncle Sam" political foundation is based on white supremacy, relegating nonwhites to second-class citizenship. It goes without saying that the social philosophy is strictly white supremacist. And the educational system perpetuates white supremacy.

Playboy, 1963

[LiberalArkie]

178. I knew s lot of black people who made their money in the north especially Detroit and out in Califor

who moved back to South Arkansas. That is what they said, they knew where they stood in Arkansas. Some of my friends said that they felt more free and liberated. A lot of the police crap I see on TV hardly ever happens in the south any more.

[Man from Pickens]

184. I concur

when I see racism here it is explicit, not the kind that talks behind your back

Malcolm X knew what he was talking about - he was a rare creature, a brilliant and honest man.

[NaturalHigh]

131. Par for the course.

I've seen it for years.

[ncjustice80]

136. Just all the monuments and idols to the traitorous slave owning bastards. n/t

[Coventina]

147. I'm fine with taking them out of government or even public spaces and put into museums where they

truly belong.

But when they talk about bulldozing graves and such.....that's just disrespect for humanity in general.

[ncjustice80]

164. Not museums. They don't deserve that type of respect.

They need to be fed through a crusher.

[Coventina]

165. Well, then you should be outside protesting just about every military museum in existence.

All over the world.

Battle regalia from every regime (and none of them have totally clean hands) are preserved there.

Erasing history is dangerous, and a disservice to future generations.

[ncjustice80]

166. Destroying their disgusting monuments isn't "erasing history."

They have no historic or artistic merit, and serve only to glorify the enemy. A statue, erected post-war I might add, is not the same as preserving a piece of equipment such as a de-militarized cannon or musket.

The government shoudl do more to remind people of the evils of the South, and the evil men who fought to preserve it. People should feel the same revulsion to anything confederate that they would a Nazi.

[Coventina]

167. If you put all Confederate flags through the shredder, as you stated, that would be erasing history

I totally agree with you that there should be no Confederate monuments on government / public lands.

[ncjustice80]

168. No it isn't. They have no merit. n/t

[Coventina]

169. Well, again, I fully expect to see you protesting at the USS Arizona Memorial

Where many Japanese items, including flags, are preserved.

[tymorial]

2. Love your point

Seriously going to pretend your flag is better than another?

Sure, the South needs to finally surrender, and that flag needs to come down. But perhaps you, dear reader, need to climb down off of your high horse of self-righteousness as well.

All of these notions about the south and the "confederacy" stem from a Good North Vs Bad South mentality that exists only in the minds of people who fail to recognize historical fact. To assume that the northern soldier was most definitely not racist and not a supporter of slavery is ridiculous. Considering the fact that after the start of the war the majority of men who fought were forced into service via the draft does not represent the image of an army of men fighting slavery and racism. As I stated in another post, how many of those men refused to fight along side regiments comprised of black soldiers. Sure, there were many who did not support slavery but does not mean they believed in equality between races. It is easy to look back with modern eyes and make grand assumptions about the culture and reality of life during the civil war. The world was a very different place then. Culture and society was very different then. So many atrocities have happened throughout history. We should remember to make sure the same mistakes are not made but engaging in moral superiority where fault was widespread (including the north) is preposterous.

[malthaussen]

14. In point of fact, according to The Oxford Companion to American Military History...

"Conscription directly accounted for only 13 percent of Union soldiers, but by the last two years of the war it undoubtedly encouraged a large number of voluntary enlistments."

(Link to article) http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Union_Army.aspx

I agree with the substance of the OP and the post to which I am replying, but I do like to have facts straight. Even the much-despised and hard-luck Army of the Potomac had more volunteers than conscripts. (I remember reading a figure of 58% at war's end, but I can't verify that) Conscripts were largely mistrusted by both their fellows and leaders, had a very high desertion rate, and were pretty unreliable.

An interesting support to your point concerns the (in)famous Battle of the Crater, for which Burnside had designated a division of U.S. Colored Troops as the spearhead and extensively trained them for the task (well, extensively by Civil War standards). However, Meade and Grant overruled him, quite possibly because they lacked confidence in the USCT. This caused Burnside to essentially become demoralized and lose all interest in the attack, which led to unfortunate results. (Wikipedia link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Crater )

--Mal

[Prism]

41. The New York riots were fun

We're supposed to think everyone in the North was a fire-breathing abolitionist.

Really, not so much. Especially not white immigrants. Lord did they hate black people.

[HockeyMom]

85. NYC Civil War Race Riots

Never heard about that one in school until I started doing Genealogy. All history should be taught and everywhere: the good, the bad, AND the ugly.

[jtuck004]

91. The IWW insisted that people of color be allowed to join. More than a few left for the AF of L

because it didn't have that crazy notion.

And here we are...

[Pooka Fey]

116. +1

[randys1]

4. Rushbo, the drug addict, predicted liberals would go after the American flag next.

Next hell, that flag stands for lots and lots of death, destruction and theft, as well.

Rush as with most cons have done nothing but harm the value of our name and flag, so they contribute nothing but harm to everything and the ones trying to do the right thing will get the blame.

[upaloopa]

5. I use to hate when the nuns in Catholic school

told me I had original sin on my soul and would go to hell unless I was baptized. I was going to hell because Eve ate an apple?
Screw that.
I also didn't murder any Native Americans nor did I hold slaves or fight in the Civil war.
I am to be held accountable for my deeds and I generate karma from them not from what went before me.
I'll pass on the need for collective guilt thank you.

[HockeyMom]

16. My Dad's family came from England in 1886

I suppose I bear the blame for what the Brits did to the Colonists? Certainly, my roots to England are a lot closer in time than the Civil War. It has never occurred to me to fly the Union Jack in honor of my "heritage", or wear anything with that symbol on it.

This is my symbol.

[Coventina]

24. I'm only a teeny-tiny bit English, but I have a couch cushion with a Union Jack on it.

Although, I confess to buying that due to being a fan of the TV show "Sherlock".

[upaloopa]

33. I only fly the Stars and Stripes

[navarth]

27. If I may

I believe you are ignoring an important aspect of the subject.

You never killed Native Americans, never owned slaves, perhaps you've never oppressed women?

The point is, at least for me, that even though I never committed these acts, I still benefit from them, gain my inborn advantages from them. In my book, that incurs a debt, or a responsibilty to give back. Perhaps you think my ideas are crazy? This is of course your privilege and I'm not going to look for a fight about it.

My 2 cents, ignore them if you so wish.

[upaloopa]

35. You can feel what you want. What is truth

for you is not truth for me.
I believe in karma like I said. I am responsible for the good and bad karma I make.
Benefiting as you describe is something you feel and may not be real.

[navarth]

38. Not be real?

Surely you don't mean that. The benefits of being born a white middle-class male are unmistakable. I beg you to reconsider.

[upaloopa]

56. I have no control over how the past benefits me

and I sure as hell am not going to feel guilt about it. And like I said, much of this discussion is made up of new ideas. I am 69 years old and as such can learn new things but also as such I have developed a philosophy of life based on a lot of years living and I don't latch on to every currently popular PC point of view.

[navarth]

67. Your implications

...seem to be the following:

1. I'm advocating guilt feelings

2. My point of view is a 'currently popular PC point of view'.

Am I correct?

[upaloopa]

76. Yes

[navarth]

122. pls see post 121

[upaloopa]

130. You say we have benefited from misdeeds of others

Seems to me you are also saying we need to atone for the misdeeds of others.
Why do you atone for something? Because you are guilty of some act. If the need to atone passes down so does the guilt.
I don't see the need for either.
Here is my point of view.
We are born in a place at a point in time.
If you believe in passed lives as I do then we are working off bad karma created in that passed life or lives. The opposite is true about good karma. My job in this life is to live my life in such a way that it benefits all beings.
So, what other people do or did doesn't figure into it.

[navarth]

134. So

you don't think there's some karma involved here. I understand that you see things that way. What could the bad karma from past lives come from then? I don't see how that past karma affects you if you're not responsible for it....

I certainly agree with the part of your philosophy that strives to benefit all things. We seem to have a disagreement as to whether we all have a responsibility to each other. That's the part I don't get.

But I appreciate the civility of the conversation. Thanks.

[upaloopa]

135. I am not responsible for other people's past actions

I am responsible for mine but not in a guilt sort of way. You have to overcome bad karma with good

[navarth]

142. well....

that's like what I am proposing to you.

Anyway, have a nice evening

[MicaelS]

100. Yes, you are.

Too many on the Left seems to enjoy wallowing in gulit for things they never personally did. In the process of telling just how awful and terrible the US really is.

[navarth]

121. So you both think I am correct in saying

that you think I'm advocating guilt and I'm subscribing to a currently popular PC fad.

You are dead wrong about #1.

#2. is debatable so there's no right or wrong about it; I just don't understand why you would say such a thing when it's been around for a very long time.

I admit to curiosity about your opinion re: affirmative action in light of your responses.

---

And how do you compute that a sense of wanting to give back and responsibility = guilt? I personally don't get how you arrive at that.

But even if you do, we probably have different opinions on guilt; I also subscribe to another philosophy that you may find to be a fad:

"Guilt is like fear. It's for survival, not destruction." -Charles Horman

[treestar]

172. Some people immigrated here due to

events like the potato famine or pogroms. So those people benefitted - is that bad?

[navarth]

175. Um,

if I understand your question, it would seem that you think I'm saying it's bad. This is quite beside the point I've been exploring but I'll answer it as best I can.

It is not necessarily bad that the people you mention benefitted. If, however, they do not recognize how they benefitted, and indeed refuse to admit they benefitted, and further imply that they don't owe the rest of the world anything because of that benefit, then I would submit that they're generating more 'bad karma'. They are at least denying any sense of community, and negating forces that help the species to survive.

Selfishness doesn't help the species survive, neither does willful ignorance.

On my father's side, I come from a line of Irish immigrants. What's been handed down to me from them has consistently been a sense of community, responsibility to each other, honesty, and a willingness to give back to the society that has benefitted them.

Hopefully that makes at least some sense to you.

I can't help wondering how some of those in this conversation would feel about affirmative action. I've mentioned it already but no replies. I don't say this to be confrontational, but rather to introduce the thought.

[Cleita]

67. I used to feel like you, especially since I wasn't even born in this country but to an ex-pat dad.

I actually grew up in a mining community in Northern Chile that an American company was exploiting for their benefit. One of the miners' union leaders, an Aymara Indian and a communist brought the truth to me. Europeans, this time Spaniards, had taken from the natives all they had and turned them into slaves. Well there is much more to our conversations than this, but he convinced me that even though I was only eighteen years old that everything I benefitted from up until now was because Americans and Europeans had stolen the wealth of their nations from them, in this case copper. It was true, my dad worked there forty four years and most of his dollars from copper made it back to the States to support my mother and me and my education. In the meantime, the mine laborers, who were mostly Aymara indians, worked for minimum wage and basically got nothing back except some diseases that are prevalent among miners and a few paltry benefits the union was able to get for them. That mine was eventually nationalized and the Americans thrown out, but then the Chileans got Pinochet courtesy of Nixon, Kissinger and Company.

Fast forward and I'm now living and working, getting married, etc. in the USA. Everytime I went through an Indian Reservation or inner city neighborhood in my travels, I was aware of the base poverty, poverty you don't see in the pretty white enclaves of this nation. You and I live in one of those places of white privilege. Yet, there is poverty hidden in our communities of the brown people who work in our fields for big Agra companies like Simplot. Although we call them Mexicans, they are mostly Native Americans.

I don't suggest we have to individually do reparations, but I think Simplot and Phillips Conoco and any dozens of big national and international corporations that are exploiting the Central Coast should pay a tax to be returned to the descendents of our former slaves and native Americans to uplift their circumstances with whatever they need for good health, good education and a middle class quality of life.

[Zorra]

6. Confederate flags first. We'll burn the other ones later. nt

[dreamnightwind]

126. LOL

That's funny, well done.

I agree about losing the confederate flag, can't believe we are still having this conversation.

I find the OP's point about U.S. genocide to be a good one, but not a reason to let the confederate flag fly.

And though I'm not much of a fan of the stars and stripes, or nationalist patriotic type energy in general, the multinational corporations are busy hollowing out this country and its sovereignty, so the flag will not mean much anyway. Not a good thing, IMO.

[DawgHouse]

7. +1

[Journeyman]

8. The last people actively fighting for the CSA were Native Americans, led by a Cherokee . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11631168

June 23, 1865: Last Confederate General in the field, Brig. Gen. Stan Watie, a Cherokee, surrenders . . .

So yes, the story of our land is far more complex and nuanced than a cartoonish look can possibly comprehend.

[jwirr]

9. There is no doubt that the goal was genocide from the very beginning. That is clearly seen in what

happened after the survivors were placed on the reservations. There are many stories that tell of this such as the smallpox ridden blankets given to the tribes. But there is not clearer evidence than that the reservations were place under the jurisdiction of the US Army for over 100 years.

[Cleita]

10. I always believed reparations should be made to both African Americans and

First Nations people for what our ancestors did to them. I don't think this should be done individually, but I do think large corporations benefitting from the resources that they profit from in this land should get a special tax for that purpose. The proceeds would go to them to uplift their circumstances by building and funding health care facilities, educational facilities as well as other institutions to meet whatever needs they have to obtain a quality of life that the middle class enjoys.

[Coventina]

11. And Hawaiians

I like your idea!!

[Cleita]

13. Yes, of course. They need to be included too.

As a matter of fact we may have to also do this in the Middle East down the line. In that case we should impound the fortunes of the Bushes, Cheneys and everyone else of the war Hawks who caused the wars and chaos in the ME to pay for it.

[Coventina]

15. Cleita for prez!

[Cleita]

17. Thanks, but I would make a piss poor President. eom

[Coventina]

18. How about an advisory position?

Not that I'm in any position to get you there!

[Cleita]

20. That I could do but no one would listen to me.

I have been advising the Prez and my congress members forever by mail or email and no one listens to me.

I sure hope Bernie get there though as I'm pretty much on the same page he is.

[Coventina]

23. I know what you mean.

I'm pulling for Bernie as well, but steering clear of the primary sniping....

[Cleita]

45. There is a Bernie Group. If you favor him, there is no sniping and a lot of good information. eom

[Coventina]

51. Thanks! I'll check it out! n/t

[navarth]

29. +1 for Bernie and for Cleita. nt

[Kali]

12. huh?

You may be here because their bodies were dug up as our forefathers brought cannibalism to these shores.

[Bradical79]

22. Reference of a historical event?

I forget exactly which folk hero it was (Daniel Boone maybe?), but there was an instance of canibalism that I think was brought to light from his journal where some native Americans were trapped in a building, burned alive, then a meal was cooked over their burning bodies and wreckage.

[Kali]

25. well that would be kind of gross but not exactly cannibalism

however there is clear evidence it was here before any Europeans arrived. not to mention warfare, slavery, and probably attempts at regional genocides. it wasn't all some peaceful, harmonic utopia - we are talking human beings, after all.

not saying the European invasion was anything other than brutal, but it wasn't the beginning of brutality in this hemisphere either.

[Bradical79]

32. Corrected below by TheKentuckian

Last edited Thu Jun 25, 2015, 12:54 PM - Edit history (1)

Edit: I got a couple things mixed up

[TheKentuckian]

133. I thought that was Davey Crockett and they ate the potatoes and roots in the cellar

that got cooked by their melting bodies but they may be a separate but similar incident.

[Bradical79]

170. Ah yes, that's right. I got 3 separate stories mixed up in my head :-P

Davey Crockett is the incident I was thinking of, where the cellar of the burned building had potatoes that had appeared to had been cooked with the fats from the people burned alive.

Boone Helm was a canibalistic murderer in the 1800's

And Daniel Boone canibalism was a Sleepy Hollow plotline.

[TheKentuckian]

179. Yup, all kinds of foul deeds by our hero's (minus sleepy hollow, I guess)

[jtuck004]

64. Girl’s Bones Bear Signs of Cannibalism by Starving Virginia Colonists

Archaeologists excavating a trash pit at the Jamestown colony site in Virginia have found the first physical evidence of cannibalism among the desperate population, corroborating written accounts left behind by witnesses. Cut marks on the skull and skeleton of a 14-year-old girl show that her flesh and brain were removed, presumably to be eaten by the starving colonists during the harsh winter of 1609.

The remains were excavated by archaeologists led by William Kelso of Preservation Virginia, a private nonprofit group, and analyzed by Douglas Owsley, a physical anthropologist at the National Museum of Natural History in Washington. The skull bears tentative cuts to the forehead, followed by four strikes to the back of the head, one of which split the skull open, according to an article in Smithsonian magazine, where the find was reported Wednesday.
...

More here: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/02/science/evidence-of-cannibalism-found-at-jamestown-site.html?_r=0

and

Luckily, an unconventional historian, Howard Zinn, revealed this fact in his classic, A People’s History of the United States. Food was so nonexistent during that winter, only 60 out of 500 colonists survived. A government document from that time gives the gruesome details:

Driven thru insufferable hunger to eat those things which nature most abhorred, the flesh and excrements of man as well of our own nation as of an Indian, digged by some out of his grave after he had lain buried three days and wholly devoured him; others, envying the better state of body of any whom hunger has not yet so much wasted as their own, lay wait and threatened to kill and eat them; one among them slew his wife as she slept in his bosom, cut her in pieces, salted her and fed upon her till he had clean devoured all parts saving her head.

Reference: Howard Zinn’s A People’s History of the United States

Here: http://disinfo.com/2010/02/the-virginia-colonists-practiced-cannibalism/

I love that last one. He saved her head because he loved her and couldn't bear to part with her. Parting her out was another story, apparently...

[Kali]

123. there was cannibalism in the New World before Europeans arrived

probably the most well known being in central Mexico, but by far not the only example

[deutsey]

160. I was taken aback by that comment too

I thought maybe it referred to the rite of communion in Christianity (symbolically eating flesh, drinking blood).

But that's just a guess.

[Bradical79]

19. Yes, history is complex and none of our ancestors are bloodless

It's why the movement against the Confederate flag and other confederate symbols should not be about white guilt, the inferiority of southerners, or other holier than thow rationale. It's about eliminating symbols of a failed rebellion that are used in the modern day to represent white supremacy, a flag that modern day racists and murderers rally behind to push for oppression of black people.

[JustAnotherGen]

158. This exactly

[n2doc]

28. And of course Native Americans never fought among each other or had slaves....

How far back do you wish to go?

[navarth]

30. Good ole Human Nature

Yeah, it goes back to the slime we crawled out of. Perhaps the strongest argument of the OP is that we should be aware of the irony in our holier-than-thou attitude.

That being said, I think the world would be a better place without flags.

[salimbag]

42. Imagine

There's no country. Just planet earth.

[msongs]

37. the original inhabitants, plants and animals, must have hated when humans showed up. then

again the original inhabitants, rocks, must have hated it when plants showed up

[n2doc]

54. Ask a woolly mammoth about Humans

Oops, can't do so.

[ms liberty]

159. lol.. there was another shark attack yesterday...

In NC; this morning when it was being reported on our local (Charlotte NC) news I told mr liberty that the sharks had figured out who was responsible for the destruction of their habitat and were fighting back!

[FSogol]

31. Translation: Whatever an issue is, it can be used to attack DUers and liberals!

[Democat]

43. America Sucks and Everything is Obama's Fault

You get used to it around here.

[edhopper]

34. And do you see a lot of people here

saying it was a glorious cause and those men should be honored? Or that it is a national shame?

Do you see people wanting to fly the 7th Cavalry banner on the Montana State House?

[edhopper]

62. Is that today?

that is just wrong. Should be changed, no doubt.

[jtuck004]

75. People are living on the land, have profited from the murder of those people. Today,

Still wrong.

[edhopper]

79. It is

as wrong as the confederate flag.

[jtuck004]

80. That is my point. Thank you. n/t

[edhopper]

83. But it's existence

doesn't negate that the flag should not be honored. Just because something else is wrong doesn't give people who want to honor the confederacy as patriots a pass.

[jtuck004]

87. Yup, yup. Let's shove the flagstick in a pile of bones from people we murdered before we salute it.

Thank you again.

[edhopper]

113. uh?

[jtuck004]

114. Neither needs a pass. n/t

[edhopper]

129. Okay thanks

agree.

[NuclearDem]

36. Oh for fuck's sake.

[sulphurdunn]

39. I've lived in the South for 21 years.

I'm married to a Southerner. My kids and most of my in laws and friends are Southerners, and I can state categorically that Southerners (regardless of race, religion or ethnic origin) are just as fucked up as everybody else, no more, no less.

[jtuck004]

88. I am good evidence for that. I lived there for about my first 50 years. Had to find some place

cooler.

[Rex]

40. So all that, just so we will feel bad and leave the Rebel Flag alone?

Wow.

[LWolf]

44. "Sure, the South needs to finally surrender, and that flag needs to come down."

Did you skip that part?

[Rex]

52. Yeah one line of lip service is really convincing.

SO I guess you believe it then, whatever to each their own. I stand by my original question.

[LWolf]

60. One line or twenty,

it's there. Your "So all that, just so we will feel bad and leave the Rebel Flag alone?" ignores that line, and misses the point.

It's disingenuous to pretend that the line isn't there and put words in the poster's mouth.

[bunnies]

47. This has got to be one of the strangest OPs Ive ever seen.

Apparently it makes sense to some people. But me? Not so much.

[Rex]

53. We've got to leave the Rebel Flag alone, because of the way we treated the Native Americans.

Sure is funny how many times Pretzel logic pops up on this forum!

[bunnies]

70. And dead horses?

What are we to do with those?

[Rex]

73. Good question, they are piled up so high we cannot get out the door!

I guess we can just push them out of the way next to the huge pile of straw that some here build a house out of and live in.

[bunnies]

77. lol. Ill fetch the tractor.

Oh. And dont eat people. Also.

[Rex]

81. Don't eat people? When did this start?

So what am I supposed to do with this left arm then?

[bunnies]

86. Just toss it in the horse pile.

I saw nothing.

[Rex]

90. Thanks!

It was an 'innocent mistake' like we all make...

[bunnies]

94. Well hey...

with all the cannibalism on our shores its easy to forget.

[Rex]

95. True, can't drive to the local gas station without seeing people eating bodyparts on the side of the

road! I mean it is like...GET A ROOM YOU TWO BODIES!

[bunnies]

97. Some people have no decency.

*smh*

[stevenleser]

139. Wow, we agree on something?

[Cosmocat]

59. Did I miss

Some jackass going into farm and shooting a dozen horses?

[bunnies]

72. I was wondering the same thing.

From flags to cannibalism to dead horses to art. Uh. Wut?

[NRaleighLiberal]

65. odd OP, odd timing - but not really, I guess. I've lost the plot around here recently

[bunnies]

74. You and me both.

Glad Im not the only one. 30 people rec'd this and Im just scratching my head.

[NRaleighLiberal]

78. don't scratch too hard...you'll lose your flapjack!

[bunnies]

82. !

[deutsey]

161. The cannibalism reference and horse slaughter example were puzzling

[Warren Stupidity]

48. Yes that is another part of American history

that should not be celebrated or memorialized, but should instead be discussed and taught objectively and understood for what it was.

Was that your point? Or was your point instead that we should continue to fly the flag of the slave republic and celebrate Robert E Lee as some sort of hero instead of a fucking traitor?

[Crowman1979]

49. I prefer to fly the flag of Nutopia.

[brewens]

50. I know of no "Sons of the Indain Fighters" group, nor are any of us out

Last edited Wed Jun 24, 2015, 05:11 PM - Edit history (1)

reenacting any of the battles the government won. We sure as shit don't fly flags or go around with hats with pro Indian Wars symbols to intentionally antagonize Native American people.

[blackspade]

108. No kidding.

[jtuck004]

117. Uh, you realize the people already "went around with guns", and many of their victims died in the

extermination camps we sent them to. Those who were left found themselves mired in alcoholism and other signs of a people whose spirit has been killed.

Our homes are on their stolen property, or the murdering bastards who built them came from those.

You profit today from that wrong. We all do.

But no doubt you have better view than I from way up there...

[brewens]

125. Not sure what you were getting at unless you completely missed the point

of my post. I consider wearing the Confederate flags around the same as telling black people you'd make them slaves again if you had your way. I see nothing quite equivalent to that going on between white people and Native Americans. They got screwed and are still being screwed in many ways, but we don't have anything like the Confederate flag in their face all the time.

I live in the area of the Nez Perce War. The army didn't do so well against those guys right at first. You probably wouldn't be bragging about an ancestor that fought at White Bird Hill. You really couldn't have considered anything about that war or any of the other Indian wars honorable.

[jtuck004]

132. We all live here after our ancestors murdered the people who lived here and took their homes

and wealth. That includes you, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, just like gravity exists for all of us. So we ALL profit from that genocide, and we have never - nor could we - make reparations for it.

Some seem to pretend that others are worse. I laugh because I think that is ridiculous. But if the concept comforts you, I wish you peace.

The confederate flag wavers are no better, for damn sure.

But I tire of small arguments and shiny things. The fucking flag can go off the building or not - the real test will be to see when it leaves their hearts, and when we aren't afraid to acknowledge our own past any longer.

[brewens]

149. I like seeing the Nez Perce people a few years back wearing these Treaty of 1855 jackets,

hats, shirts and whatever they had made up. It showed the extent of the territory they should control, which is massive compared to the reservation they ended up with.

I'm not one of these white guys that has a problem with the term Native American, as if I'm native too because I was born here. Some of us get it. We sure as shit know the difference between a native trout and a planter. Like the guys that say they should hunt and fish the old way if they want special rights. So I suppose then they wouldn't mind the whole tribe moving through their property with all their horses and everything to do so? They don't think that stuff through.

It'd be fine with me if all of a sudden my house payment started going to the tribe instead of the bank. As long as I get to stay here.

[jtuck004]

150. "...my house payment started going to the tribe instead of the bank" - Now there is an interesting

idea. Put the banks on hold and give all the house payments back to the people in some fashion.

Say about $40 trillion. That ought to get us started. Then we can see what happens from there.

[Crowman1979]

55. ...my other favorites are Pirate flags.

[jtuck004]

84. At least Pirates are honest thieves. n/t

[SwankyXomb]

61. If you're going to try and justify flying the Dixie Swastika

At least have the courtesy to make it your avatar so decent people can put you on ignore.

[pasto76]

63. nice distraction and deflection

and maybe this issue would be in the spotlight, had the kid murdered people at a pow wow.

nobody here is denying that the US government committed genocide back then.

I personally have never committed a violent act of racism. So to make that blanket 'you all need to get off your high horses' is pretty offensive. Because what that REALLY means is you need to get down to my level. and clearly, most of the country stands above you.

[jtuck004]

69. You profited, as we all still do, from the violent acts of racism of others. Fortunately for you

there is an entire political party dedicated to the idea that no one has to pay their bills, and that screwing people over is a way of life, if you just deny that you continue to profit.

I wonder if they have missed you yet.

Probably distracted.

[stevenleser]

140. I agree with them and I have native American blood on one side and holocaust survivor on the other

I haven't exactly profited from the violent acts of racism of others. Your OP doesnt make any sense.

[treestar]

173. You're making me think of that

right wing meme that tells Black Americans they are lucky their ancestors were brought here by force, since they are now Americans rather than living in an African country, most of which are third world and have had wars and famines and other problems recently (getting some of them to flee here now due to it). Which goes to show, history is in fact complex.

But migration always is - it's always happening. Terrible things may have happened while it occurred, but it occurred and will continue. The Confederates were not doing that. They were fighting to keep people in chains.

The Native Americans experienced some benefits too overall and over time. You're zeroing in on the worst of it and ignoring the rest.

[Iggo]

66. Heh.

http://funnytweeter.com/the-usa-is-having-so-many-disasters-and-tragedies-youd-almost-think-it-was-built-on-thousands-of-ancient-indian-burial-grounds/

[jtuck004]

93. We just don't learn... n/t

[Angry Dragon]

71. kick

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

89. “Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people’s minds

“Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people’s minds & then as ceremonial shrouds to bury the dead.”

― Arundhati Roy

[jtuck004]

92. Thank you for this.n/t

[Blue_In_AK]

98. Excellent point.

[Jack Rabbit]

101. !!

Eighteenth century buccaneers established the most democratic system of government the world has ever seen. The Captain of the ship was elected by a vote of the crew members and all his decisions were subject to a vote of the crew except orders made in the heat of combat. To keep the captain honest, the quartermaster was also elected by popular vote. It was typical of a crew of buccaneers to be from several different countries, but all crew members had equal rights and received an equal share of the booty.

So, my fellow evil DUers, I give you a symbol of democracy . . .
[center]

[/center]

[jtuck004]

115. I think that's also the flag of Chase Bank now...n/t

[Jack Rabbit]

119. I hope not

The Jolly Roger should not be dishonored by association with scurvy like Jamie Dimon.

[jtuck004]

120. They would make it look bad. Little more than pig feed, Dimon is. n/t

[BKH70041]

102. So the ultimate goal of those opposed to the Confederate flag...

... is the opposition of the American flag and, in extension, America itself?

Yeah, OK. Given many of the things I've read here, I believe that's their ultimate goal.

[jtuck004]

105. One has to feel sorry for English after reading this. n/t

[BKH70041]

107. English were oppressors, too.

No more Union Jack!!

[jtuck004]

109. Not "the" English. <G> n/t

[BKH70041]

110. Yes, "the" English.

Though most would have used scare quotes like this -- "the English" -- the point is still valid. They oppressed, therefore they lose their flag. And whatever it takes to eradicate them from the planet.

Otherwise, I'm still reading things from members here that essentially say "America, too, is guilty of past sins and the symbols which represent those past sins must be eliminated."

Take Andrew Jackson off the $20 bill!!!! Indian killer.

[jtuck004]

112. Thank you. You just made my day. <G> n/t

[MADem]

104. HORSES? Didn't the Spanish bring horses to America?

Should we blame them for bringing Black Beauty and Trigger over in the first place?

This is a stretch, this "feel bad" account.

Cruelty is cruelty, and comparing and contrasting it doesn't make it go away. Three take aways:

The confederate flag is a heinous symbol of slavery and oppression.

Two wrongs never make a right.

Comparing an apple with an orange yields the following conclusion--they are both pieces of fruit.

[jtuck004]

106. Damn there are some smart people here. No sarcasm at all. n/t

[dorkzilla]

111. What the hell did I just read?

What the ever-loving fuck?

[REP]

118. You and me both

I think the OP is trying say that the outrage level isn't sufficient and then something about spray chalk and horses.

[ieoeja]

124. Do you blame Asians for the tens of millions of Europeans who died from the plagues?

I really hate the intellectual dishonesty (or just stupid incomprehension) of this and the 3/5th of a person arguments. The whole "murdered 80 million natives" because they happened to have no immunity to European diseases is merely an attempt to play on the gullible of some people. It doesn't actually argue in favor of the thing it is supposed to oppose.

Unless you truly believe that people should never have explored the world. Because that is what this point implies.

[LittleBlue]

127. According to the most recent genetic testing, disease wiped out most Native Americans

before ever setting eyes on a European. Eurasian diseases spread faster than most scientists and historians ever dreamed. In fact it spread over the entire continent within just a few years after Columbus and before European colonization.

The population then reached a low point about 500 years ago—only a few years after Christopher Columbus arrived in the New World and before extensive European colonization began.

Study co-author Brendan O'Fallon, a population geneticist who conducted the research while at the University of Washington in Seattle, speculates that many of the early casualties may have been due to disease, which "would likely have traveled much faster than the European settlers themselves."

For instance, the Franciscan friar Toribio de Benavente—one of the first Spanish missionaries to arrive in the New World in the early 1500s—wrote that Mexico was initially "extremely full of people, and when the smallpox began to attack the Indians, it became so great a pestilence among them ... that in most provinces more than half the population died."

Some historians have questioned whether such effects were restricted to particular cities or regions, but the new study suggests mortality was widespread.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/12/111205-native-americans-europeans-population-dna-genetics-science/#

By the time the first pilgrims arrived in Massachusetts, the vast majority of Native Americans had been victims of multigenerational waves of smallpox.

That doesn't excuse the other atrocities like ethnic cleansing and land theft. But if you have Native American bones under your house, it's highly likely they died of Smallpox and were unaware that white people existed.

[jtuck004]

146. Huh. wonder why the British wrote of giving them smallpox laden material and hoping it

did it's job, if their bodies were already littering the landscape?

This sounds a little like White wash to me

[LittleBlue]

151. That has nothing to do with what I wrote

You can still give a population smallpox even if their society had been exposed for 2000 years. Europe and the Middle East had waves of smallpox since the beginning of recorded history.

By the time Britain had any presence in America, smallpox had existed for over 100 years.

Genetics don't lie and can't be whitewashed.

[jtuck004]

154. Genetics don't lie. People do though, and they create things to support their stories. And sometimes

they are just flat out wrong, but will never admit it. It is the way of the world.

Since the records pretty much don't exist, a lot of this is conjecture built on some numbers. You think it is incontrovertible science but don't seem to offer much to explain the countering view other than "believe as I do". Others, according to the google, believe otherwise just as strongly.

All sorts of folks have what they think, and can prove, is the unique gospel. Often self-serving, but they believe anyway.

They are welcome to it.

I've heard some oral stories, read some things here and there that I believe are as good as any science, and for this lifetime I'll stay with those. Always did think qualitative data did a better job of representing real life, since you don't have to cut so much off to fit in the box.

In the next perhaps I will see it your way.

[countryjake]

128. A thread I just saw here on Stone Mt reminded me of Mt Rushmore

immediately.

Thanks for this, jtuck.

Never forget.

[struggle4progress]

137. My country tis of thy people

[stevenleser]

138. This is a ridiculous OP. The Confederacy can't be racist because of what the US did to Native

Americans?

That is to what your OP boils down. And it is crazy.

[treestar]

180. +1

In fact Hitler used the Native Americans in an analogy. Like that made what he did OK. This is not Godwin's law because Hitler did say that.

[Ken Burch]

141. Where did you get the idea that calling the Confederate Flag racist means not caring

about the genocide inflicted on Native Americans?

Most of us are outraged by both, AFAIK. We need to work to heal the wouunds of slavery/Jim Crow AND the wouunds if the Trail of Tears, the broken treaties, the land theft and the near-destruction of indigenous culture. They are equal wrongs and I know of no one who cares about the one but not the other.

You're right to teach about what's been done and what continues to be done with to the hemisphere's First Nations, but it;s hard to understand why you see the reaction to the Charleston Massacre(and the flying of the flag that is to African-Americans as the Nazi flag is to Jews)as somehow being in competition with that.

And yes, Lincoln had a lot of First Peoples killed, and had no excuse for doing that, but it wasn't the fault of African-Americans or the opponents of slavery and it doesn't discredit the Union cause in the Civil War(though the crime does need to be acknowledged and apologized for).

[jtuck004]

144. Generally speaking people talk about what they care about. And in post after post after post

after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post* I read about how bad those people were with the bad flag, but nothing about the genocide and theft we stand on to make these claims while our precious is flapping in the breeze.

I suddenly remembered such topics have, in many cases, been cleverly expurgated from our national conversation. So I thought to bring it up.

And I thought, since it is Summer, folks might be travelling through, and people like to draw with chalk. Might learn something. They could go through Centralia and look up how they murdered IWW workers, or Tacoma and view the site where the police fired on docking boats of Wobblies who were trying to speak to workers about how to help themselves, or Spokane where they made the 1st Amendment illegal and Wobblies filled their jails.

But this is killing horses which only indirectly starved people, so it's a little more family friendly.

"Most of us are outraged by both" < Perhaps what you say is true, but I would really like for it to translate into something else. The barriers seem a bit high these days.

Still, stories are fun.


*well, not just here, of course.

[Ken Burch]

148. I agree with everything you've said there.

We need to remind everyone of all that was done in the creation of this country.

And there always needs to be more action.

I've been trying to spread the idea of having a form of guerrilla education known as knowledge festivals-have people travel thr country teaching, through theatre, music, visual arts and traditional cultural forms, about the hidden history and the forgtten wounds-also about the forgotten people who always resisted the wrongs, from below and as they saw and see them happening .

[jtuck004]

153. Kinda like the Chataqua. I think that is a great idea. It's how the wobblies used to

get their ideas out, and they stayed in touch with the people that way.

The thing I like about stuff like that is that a window has to be open in people's minds to learn anything, and for a lot it is simply frozen. Festivals and street theater catch people when they are actively engaged with the world, when whatever the heck that is usually frozen is a bit more malleable.

Sometimes that is the perfect time.

They did this in Spokane a half dozen years ago: http://www.thefigtree.org/dec09/120109iwwreenactment.html

[romanic]

143. What country

wasn't founded on the bodies of others? I mean, unless you invent a time machine and go back to turn the Mayflower away, there ain't nothing you can do to reverse the genocide of Natives. So set aside ur guilt and move out of the US if you feel that passionate about it.

[jtuck004]

145. So, you got yours, fuck everyone else? Sure you are in the right place? Wait, you are. n/t

[romanic]

156. I guess I am in the right place.

I just stated the reality of the world we live in; there have been countless conquests and wars and innocents that have perished in the constructions of empires and countries around the world; the U.S. included. Only an emotionally naive person would take offense to what I said.

[raven mad]

152. We took the bike through Washington, Oregon, the Dakotas..........

and cried.

[Juicy_Bellows]

155. This is in Washington

and some info about it

http://www.wta.org/go-hiking/hikes/wild-horses-monument

[jtuck004]

174. I did not know about that. Thank you! n/t

[steve2470]

157. The current US flag is better than the Confederate Stars and Bars and the Nazi Germany flag

Seriously going to pretend your flag is better than another?

That's my answer to your question. Sure, America has its problems but I'll take our flag over those two any day.

[heaven05]

163. humbling...

lesson in historic reality concerning genocide of many nations and cultures of one race of people by another and that was just the start. Still going on today with the whining about a goddamn flag of traitors +1000.

[treestar]

171. By that metric no flag should ever be flown

All of the Americas, Australia. The UK should not fly theirs and the Normans took over from the Saxons who took over from the Celts. Most of the world would fall under the category of having non-aboriginal peoples long established.

The immigrants to this continent did a lot of good here, too - developed it into modern nations.

Humans migrate across this planet, and that is a fact of human nature. The Confederates were not doing that. They were rebelling against a country they were already part of in order to keep black people as slaves.

[pnwmom]

181. The Stars and Stripes, unlike the Confederate flag, has never stood for slavery. n/t

[HFRN]

183. I've always thought the wrongs to Native Americans, were most understated, in relative terms

they are the group, who's harm my family benefited from, far more than anyone else

there's no comparison, really