By reading GD, one could think that the North never owned slaves.

[redgreenandblue]

And that racism and homicide are foreign concepts there.

I have no problem with getting rid of the rebel flags, but Washington could lead by example and rename itself to something else. And then take down the Jefferson memorial (slave-owning rapist).

[randys1]

1. Some parts of California are just as racist and ugly as anywhere.

The truth is the south has a special place when it comes to racism, but all America is racist to one degree or another

[upaloopa]

9. California sided with the South during the Civil War.

I was a docent at a pictograph site which was the winter home of a tribe of Native Americans near Tehachapi.
During the Civil War the Native Americans were placed on a reservation at Fort Tejon.
The Union soldiers at the fort were needed to suppress the local Confederate sympathizers and to keep the Native Americans on the reservation.
As the war went bad for the North the soldiers were sent east to fight and the Native Americans returned to their land.

[KamaAina]

27. California as a whole most certainly did not.

"the local Confederate sympathizers" seem to have been confined to SoCal (Anaheim was once a huge KKK center).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California#19th_century

On September 9, 1850, as part of the Compromise of 1850, California was admitted to the United States undivided as a free state, denying the expansion of slavery to the Pacific Coast.

[Brother Buzz]

34. The Confederate uprising in Southern California was never going to happen

Although the Union resources were limited, the Confederate support from the east was nonexistent. When the Confederate sympathizers realized the Californios were poised to ally with the Union, they went to ground.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Nope that did not happen

that many vets did move to the rural areas of the state after the war, yes that did happen though. that the echoes of the civil war due to that, and yanks moving to the coast still are in the background... sure

[Cali_Democrat]

2. I didn't get that impression from reading GD.

Could you link to a post where someone said racism and homicide are foreign concepts in the North?

I must have missed it.

[redgreenandblue]

4. Well, there is this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6890610

[Cali_Democrat]

5. Where does the poster say racism and homicide are foreign concepts in the North?

I also don't see any mention of northern states never owning slaves.

Are you sure you linked to the right post?

[arcane1]

15. That's one post, about the war and its aftermath n/t

[redgreenandblue]

17. There have been plenty of similar threads recently. nt

[Coventina]

3. Northerners on a moral high-horse need to watch this film:

http://www.tracesofthetrade.org/


The truth is: Northerners kept the wealth from the slave trade, they are the ones who benefited the most from the slave economy, in the long run, after the South was defeated.

Slavery is part of the history of the ENTIRE US, not just one area.

The repercussions of slavery, no matter what form it takes: racism, segregation, economic injustice, etc., is something we all need to take responsibility for and work to end.

on edit: grammar

[HockeyMom]

8. NYC Civil War Race Riots

I was never taught that in school. Did not learn about it until I was an adult tracing my genealogy. Yeah, it IS everywhere. There is no discrimination or crimes again gay people in Greenwich Village? Of course, there was, and still is.

Bigoted people are everywhere. Location makes no difference at all.

[jwirr]

10. Grandfathers and mothers emigrated from Germany in 1857. Lived in Guttenberg Iowa - both him

and his 16 year old son were Union soldiers and we have no wealth to speak of not to mention being good Lincoln Republicans at that time. Stories in the family speak of the underground railroad but I have no idea if they are true. But I guess I am also guilty.

This is what I was taught regarding being German during WWII even with several of my family fighting against the Nazis. I have finally realized that I was not guilty then and I will not accept this guilt now either.

And let me see does that guilt continue down to my Native American and black descendants?

[Coventina]

21. I don't think anyone should feel guilt for their ancestors. Nor should they feel pride.

But DU has a habit of demonizing people from the South as being somehow morally inferior, because of the Confederacy.

The point I want to make is this:

Slavery is a problem for the entire US, and that includes recent citizens, who have chosen to adopt this Nation as their own.

EVERYONE is descended from people who have done horrible things.
No one gets to pat themselves on the back for ancestors fighting for the Union, any more than they should feel shame for ancestors who fought for the rebellion.

(As it happens, I have both).

[JaneyVee]

18. But the North doesn't celebrate it as "heritage".

And that's what the debate is about, heritage or hate. I say both, a heritage of hate.

[redgreenandblue]

22. Then what is this?

[Coventina]

25. Agreed. I think anyone who thinks on the Confederacy with pride is stupid at best, but most likely

just downright evil.

However, there has been a lot of broad-brushing of "the South" and Southerners as inherently morally inferior.

[unc70]

38. Strongly recommend. Also slavenorth.com

http://www.SlaveNorth.com includes details on when slavery actually ended in the North. It will surprise most who read about how states like NY "ended slavery" without freeing their slaves and what that really meant when you had noted abolitionist who were still slave traders.

Traces of the Trade is great.

[frazzled]

6. Of course they did, but by 1804 every state in the North had abolished slavery

So within the first 30 years after the Declaration of Independence was declared, slavery did not exist in the North. Nor was it supported.

As for racism existing in the North: it still does. But not so often in the institutional (government-sponsored) way it persisted in the South.

[FSogol]

7. File Under: 1 person who said something I didn't like equals everyone on DU believes it

[redgreenandblue]

16. There are plenty of examples from the last few days.

No, I'm not going to dig up links to them all.

[HooptieWagon]

11. I visited Philly a few years ago.

And spent a day at Liberty Plaza (I think that's what it is called). Among the fascinating exhibits was the excavation of the slave quarters of the Philadelphia White House. Pennsylvania had already banned slavery, any dlave there was automatically freed after 6 months. The slave-owning early Presidents had to rotate their slaves, sending them back before 6 months, and bringing in replacements. I'm pretty up on history, but hadn't known that. In fact, there was a whole lot I learned that day, I highly recommend a visit there.
Yes, many aspects of our country's history are unpleasant. But we shouldn't hide it. It should be displayed to learn from, but not to celebrate.

[Divernan]

29. George Washington & his runaway slave.

http://www.ushistory.org/presidentshouse/news/bv012511.htm

George Washington and His Runaway Slave

A new Philadelphia museum, the President's House, dramatically illustrates how the nation's first president tried to thwart his slave's quest for freedom. But Oney Judge prevailed.

"I am free now and choose to remain so." These are the words that haunt the new exhibit, " The President's House: Freedom and Slavery in Making a New Nation." Now, directly in front of the famous Liberty Bell and Independence Hall, the President's House is the first and only federal site designed to memorialize enslaved African Americans.

That defiant affirmation of freedom was uttered by Oney "Ona" Judge, a runaway slave formerly owned by George and Martha Washington who successfully evaded the first president's many attempts to capture her. It is her story, told through a video reenactment, that introduces the exhibit. In it, an actress playing an older, bonnet-clad Judge recounts how she stole her freedom from the man who helped this country secure its own independence.

[Iggo]

12. If one really stretched.

[leveymg]

13. Fascinating timeline on who emancipated whom going back to antiquity here. It was often followed by

rebellion of the landowners: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline

[closeupready]

14. Spend less time here then.

Because I certainly never got that impression, and I spend plenty of time in GD.

[LordGlenconner]

19. But then the OP wouldn't be able to cite exceptions that proved rules

In their attempt to craft a false equivalency that the North and South were the same.

I guess they missed the part where one decided to secede and start a war over it and all that but hey, details.

[closeupready]

24. Secession, seschmession. Sheez. Talk about

making mountains out of molehills.

[LanternWaste]

20. I infer the opposite.

I infer the opposite. Seems that relevant knowledge of specific contextual historicism is shared by many, regardless of geographical location; as is the corollary being true-- a shared ignorance or denial of specific contextual historicism (e.g., renaming Washington) also regardless of location.

[Humanist_Activist]

23. May I just mention that I think OP is being less than truthful?

Not saying you are purposely being dishonest, just that your biases are perhaps preventing you from reading the discussions objectively.

[struggle4progress]

26. hmmm

[Cleita]

28. The series, "Turn: Washington's Spies" brings this out. Both sides own slaves in New York and

Philadelphia. Some slaves get manumission from the English loyalists because England has freed its slaves. I don't know how true this is, but in the story General Washington tells his body slave to speak his mind to him like he was a free man. The slave says something derogatory about his brother and Washington chokes him.

[Coventina]

30. Took me a while to warm up to that show, but I'm really into it now.

I haven't finished season 2 yet. I have it on my DVR.

I'm at the part where Benedict Arnold has just been introduced as a character.

I don't know how historically accurate the details are, but it's a fascinating show to watch!!

[Cleita]

32. Yes, it is addictive once you get into it.

Although I don't know how accurate it is either. However, the characters are based on real people.

[Coventina]

35. Yeah, I appreciate seeing the characters from history embodied with emotions and such.

Although, it's a bit of a two-edged sword.

I know what eventually happens to Major Andre, and it makes me sad, even though he's "the enemy".

And, I was really bummed about Ensign Baker's death, as he struck me as a decent chap placed in a situation, as Abe says, he never should have been placed in.

I like how the show treats everyone as real people, not puppets of their biographical details.

Although, I think they have made Simpcoe a bit cartoonishly evil. From what I understand, he's considered a hero in Canadian history!

[Cleita]

37. The Simpcoe character's actor is the best. He should get an Emmy.

He just makes him deliciously creepy and dare I say even a bit sexy through the creepiness. Well, Benedict Arnold was a hero to the English so I guess it depended on whose side you were on. Yeah, Ensign Baker seemed to have had a sad life up to then but still was a decent guy. But he was on the wrong side and it was war.

[Coventina]

39. HA! So glad to know I'm not the only one! He's completely horrible, yet somehow.....compelling.

I agree that the actor deserves an Emmy!!!!

War is hell.

Good and bad are ALMOST always on both sides.
Well-intentioned, good-hearted people are often put into situations where they knowingly or unknowingly betray their ideals.

It's so easy for those who have never been in such situations to pass moral judgments.

[Nitram]

31. Someone always reminds us that the south did not have a monopoly on slavery or racism.

That is true. But it doesn't not change the fact that the south went to war against the U.S. government to defend slavery. It does not change the fact that hundreds of schools were shut down in the south so that white children wouldn't have to sit in a classroom with black children. It does not change the fact that the vast majority of lynchings occurred in the south. And it does not change the fact that the Confederate battle flag was revived as a symbol of southern resistance to equal rights and integration.

[still_one]

40. convenient points that seem to be forgotten, and those issues were going full forces through the

sixties

[frustrated_lefty]

41. The north is integrated?

[Nitram]

44. Depends on what you call integration.

If you break it down to neighborhoods, you'll find many of the light blue and yellow areas are highly segregated. This map is not granular enough to prove a point. The fact is, for historical reason there are far more African-Americans living in the south than the North. Remember? that's where the slaves were. And by the way, when Lee's army invaded Pennsylvania, they kidnapped free blacks and returned them to slavery.

[still_one]

33. No one said there wasn't or isn't racism in the North, but that is a different issue

The southern states left the union, and one of the biggest issues was they would not accept the abolition of Slavery.

People can flower it about states rights, but in the end it was about states right to discriminate

It wasn't until the sixties with the civil rights act, that segregation was strictly enforced in the south. You didn't have white or "colored" bathrooms, drinking fountains, or sections on a bus or restaurant in the North.

Your other arguments are trying to setup a false equivalency

Jefferson isn't honored for his slave ownership, he is he noted for moving the foundations of democracy forward

Most important, the ones who are having the confederate flag removed from public building are Southern politicians.

Also, the confederate flag is NOT banned as some have extrapolated, it is being removed from government buildings in certain states.

[davidn3600]

36. General Grant owned slaves until 1865

Yep. Lots of people don't know that. Grant and wife were slave owners even through the war and even after Lincoln's emancipation proclamation.

[pnwmom]

42. The North never fought a war to retain the right to keep slaves. The North fought a war

to end slavery.

[Nitram]

45. Amen.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

46. I'm anxious to see the upcoming movie The Free State Of Jones

which has a prospective release date of 2016. Mathew McConaughey will play Newton Knight, a man who deserted the Confederate army and went back to his home in Jones County, Mississippi to lead a secession of that county from the Confederacy. Jones County voted overwhelmingly for the anti-secessionist candidate before the war began and became a haven for Confederate soldiers fleeing from the war. Knight led a group of fighters against the Confederate government who tried to retake power in the county and he also had a love relationship with a black woman.