If Sanders cannot win the Presidency and Clinton can then Clinton voters won't vote Sanders

[Fumesucker]

That is the real problem that Hillary supporters implicitly state when they talk about how much more "electable" Clinton is versus Sanders, Hillary voters aren't voting for the Democrat, they are voting for Hillary and if Hillary ain't there then they won't be voting.

So which is it, will Hillary voters vote for the Democratic nominee or is Sanders unelectable if he wins the nomination?

FWIW, I suspect the same thing will or would be true of a lot of Sanders voters, they wouldn't care to vote for Hillary so don't bother making that argument, I agree with you. However it seems clear from Hillary's supporters that they feel there are more Hillary voters who won't vote for Sanders than vice versa.

[JaneyVee]

1. So the people who get called 'label-only' voters and...

'Party cheerleaders' won't vote for the Dem nominee but the people who spend 24/7 bashing Hillary for not being a 'purist' will magically vote for her? I think your vice-versa is vice-versa.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

2. I think they're thinking that they personally will vote for him, but that a lot of other Dems won't.

But honestly, a lot of folks voting for Obama in '08 probably assumed he'd lose but voted for him anyway, so I don't see why the same couldn't happen with Sanders.

[frazzled]

3. The vast majority here have vowed to vote for the Democratic nominee

whoever that turns out to be.

There are only a few (but vocal) posters who have stated they wouldn't vote for Clinton. But I haven't seen a single person (okay, I don't read every post) who said they wouldn't vote for Sanders.

So all I can say is .... huh? I think this kind of defensiveness is unmotivated, and borders on illogic. Sorry, it just doesn't match the facts as I see them.

[Fumesucker]

10. Is that an admission that Bernie is electable?

Since Hillary voters have no problem voting for Bernie then he is as electable as Hillary, yes?

[frazzled]

20. It's no comment on anybody's electability

I think you need to continue the argument amongst yourself. Because it's too irrational for more than one person to participate in.

[Fumesucker]

24. Bless your heart

[Snotcicles]

52. +1. nt

[Sheepshank]

11. That's pretty much how I see it too.

each camp is going full on for their candidate in the Primary, but once it comes to the general election, I have never read anywhere on DU that a Hillary supporter will not support whomever wins as the Democratic nominee...even if that is Sanders. Sanders supporters are more and more emboldened lately to quip that they will never vote for Clinton if she become the Democratic Nominee.

Thats just the plain facts of it, and doesn't stand up to the tripe being posted in the OP.

[Maedhros]

4. You're missing the fact that the "Bernie is not electable" argument is unadulterated bullshit,

a campaign talking point used to try and peel primary votes away from Bernie (just like the "Bernie is tone deaf to minorities" campaign talking point).

The entire Hillary campaign is, at it's heart, dishonest: trying to convince us that a Wall Street darling is really a progressive.

[madokie]

37. YUP

"The entire Hillary campaign is, at it's heart, dishonest: trying to convince us that a Wall Street darling is really a progressive."

[Scuba]

38. +1

[GoneFishin]

39. +1. Agreed.

[swilton]

5. Clinton's electability

is mythology....

Look at the latest NBC/WSJ poll numbers (the details, not the published findings) her negatives are as high as her positives with those that know her.

While Sanders name recognition may not be as high as Clinton's at least his favorability numbers are on the plus side.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. This poll...She seems to be doing just fine

[kenfrequed]

18. You seem to repost this a lot.

And you seem to reuse the same heading every single time.

Honestly, if it weren't for the catchy graphic I wouldn't have even noticed that you are kind of machine-posting this thing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Is this better?

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-general-election-bush-vs-clinton

[LanternWaste]

6. Confusing "imply" and "infer" may be the fundamental flaw of your hypothesis.

I imagine very few Democratic voters will sit out the next election cycle should their preferred primary candidate not win the nomination. Even though it's a fun game to play, I don't think it accurately represents likely Democratic voters beyond a number so small as to be insignificant eighteen months prior to the general election.

Confusing "imply" and "infer" (whether intentional or not) may be the fundamental flaw of your hypothesis.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. He's also ignoring independents who are a large part of the electorate.

[Trajan]

26. Why would you say that?

How is he 'ignoring' independents? ... He has a set of policy positions that will certainly be attractive to a segment of so called 'Independent' voters, at least ...

You Hillary people ... Willing to lose your religion for a chance to belittle a good good man ...

Funny: As we careen through the DU hallways over the years, we have certain posters whom we admire and some we don't ...

But I am finding that persons whom I thought I admired, come off as slimy used car salesmen during an election season ...

I will not, CANNOT, forget the slimy behaviors of the partisans ... I love Bernie and admire Hillary ... Why the FUCK are you guys cutting each other down? ...

Getting tired of the b.s. ... Mighty tired ...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Not he , the original poster.

[zappaman]

9. I haven't seen one supporter of Clinton say they won't vote for the nominee.

Carry on.

[Sheepshank]

12. yup..... n/t

[Fumesucker]

13. I'm not the one making the argument

That would be people who say that Bernie is unelectable, I'm not making that argument, I'm stating the implications of it.

[zappaman]

15. And they will still vote for Sanders.

Just like I voted for Dukakis in the GE knowing he was not going to win.
I'd bet that every Clinton supporter is pulling the lever for the D on the ballot.
So yeah, your post does not make sense.

[frylock]

21. Well then he is electable, by golly!

[Fumesucker]

23. Then Sanders is electable

Because Clinton voters will vote for him.

That was all I was getting at.

[Agschmid]

28. Sure according to those of us on DU...

But DU isn't the party, and that is something people seem to forget.

[Fumesucker]

35. I'm just taking the argument to its conclusion

It's not my argument to start with but I'm interested in where it goes.

[Agschmid]

36. It's not a valid argument because we don't represent the people you are expanding it too.

[Fumesucker]

47. I remember 2008 and who got miffed at what

Not everyone buys the "party unity" argument you know...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026319869

@ 00:35

[Agschmid]

51. My only point is that DU is not representative of the D. Party as a whole.

All you need to see is 90% for Sanders on here, vs. 15% nationally.

It's hard to extrapolate a DU trend to the rest of the party.

[Rex]

43. LOL!

Good show! Remember, DU is only important if it fits a narrative - like all the political experts here cannot be wrong - unless of course they grow impatient with people disagreeing with them then point out to the other policital experts this site has no value.

Considering we probably number in the thousands and it seems a lot of us are active in politics...yeah exactly.

Got to weigh common sense against validation in cyberspace.




Anyway, nice job there really got them spinning like a dervish.

[upaloopa]

64. Saying Bernie is unelectable is not saying

you won't vote for him. I am a Hillary supporter but I truly believe Sanders will drop out before the general so it is a mute issue with me. If he is our nominee I will vote for him as I have voted for every losing Dem in my voting life which started in 1968.

[dogknob]

14. Who says Sanders cannot win? The people who own nearly all of our media?

Those people say a lotta things.

[GoneFishin]

45. Exactly. What else are they going to say about a true populist.

[madokie]

16. Seems that Clinton supporters never did support our President Obama

All we heard around this place for the last 6.5 years is how the president did this or did that, none of which was or did show support. Some of the people who are in support of Hillary this time around are some of the same people who I'm talking about. IMO

This is what I'm seeing

[NanceGreggs]

53. It is, by and large, the opposite.

I see the same Obama-bashers now bashing Hillary - often using exactly the same terms and phrases.

[madokie]

54. LOL

now thats a stretch that I can't make, sorry

[NanceGreggs]

59. If you browse the BOG ...

... you'll see a lot of the same names you'll see in the Hillary Group and/or who are staunch HRC supporters.

I don't think I've seen a single poster here who trashed Obama repeatedly and then came out for HRC.

In fact, that seems to be one of the biggest complaints among the anti-HRC folks, that she will just be an extension of Obama's presidency, and will do all those "terrible things" that he did, retain the "status quo" that Obama established, etc.

How many posts have said an HRC presidency will just be a continuation of the past six-plus years?

Now how many posts have said "I hated Obama, but I love Hillary"?

Seriously.

[madokie]

60. You need to pay attention then

I have for 6.5 years now. sorry

[NanceGreggs]

65. Well, I guess you haven't been paying very close attention.

DU is full of posts/OPs about how HRC supporters are "just falling into line" behind HRC in the same way they fell in line behind Obama, how they are believing her lies the same as they believed his, how they are only interested in voting for the (D) candidate that has been chosen by the PTB in the Party, etc.

Again, the most oft repeated complaints from the anti-HRC folks is that "she's just like Obama" - a notion that wouldn't be raised repeatedly if HRC was garnering her support from those who DIDN'T support Obama.

Of course, if you have any links to posts here from people who have bashed Obama for 6.5 years and are now staunch HRC supporters, I'd be interested in seeing them.

In my experience, I haven't come across any.

[geek tragedy]

17. a LOT of general election voters don't vote in primaries. nt

[MohRokTah]

22. You left out "not members of the Democratic Party" in your description of "Clinton voters". eom

[Fumesucker]

25. English is actually my first language

But thanks for the tip.

[PeteSelman]

29. I don't want to have to vote for Hillary but I will if I must.

Because she represents more of the same crap we've been getting for thirty-five years. But she's not as repugnant as the Republicans so, you know, just take another bite of the shit sandwich.

We need some way to blow the whole system up.

[surrealAmerican]

30. This might be true, but is not necessarily true.

If more Republican voters choose not to vote (for their own candidate) with Clinton as our candidate than would with Sanders as our candidate, this could also change the results.

I'm not convinced that's the case. I think Republicans will turn out to vote against Clinton.

[Marr]

42. I think it's practically certain that more of them would turn out to vote against Clinton.

After all, they've been calling every Democrat since Bill Clinton a socialist. I'm sure they'll say Hillary Clinton is a socialist, too. I don't think that particular word will hit Sanders any harder than it hits any other Democratic candidate.

[Agnosticsherbet]

31. I will not through action or inaction support a Republican

So I will vote for the Democratic nominee in the General election

I will not have to hold my nose, because I will vote for the best available candidate.

In this universe, at this time in history, that can not be a Republican.

By the way, I do not, at this time, I am not a camp follower of any of our candidates. I will make up my mind by June, when California has its primary.

[Fumesucker]

33. Well according to some Clinton supporters *someone* will vote for one but not the other

Which is what the claims of "electability" are all about as far as I can tell.

[Agnosticsherbet]

41. Senator Sanders likes HIllary Clinton.

Senator Sanders "Maybe I shouldn't say this, I like HIllary Clinton

He ran as a Democrat rather than a Republican because, in his own words "I will not be a spoiler."

If he does not win the nomination, he will bet he will be ouit there running hard for the nominee. So will Clinton, who campaigned for President Obama.

[Fumesucker]

49. I don't see how that addresses the point in the OP

That some who will vote for Clinton will not vote for Sanders...

That is the entire premise of "electability" being on the side of Clinton.

[Agnosticsherbet]

63. I have not seen any of Clinton's supporters say that

But I don't read everything, so there may be some

I have seen several posts from people who will not hold their nose and vote if Sanders does not win.

Part of it, I think, is Primary grandstanding.

The only thing we can do is fight to get out the vote for the nominee. People who won't vote have decided to accept what they get.

[B Calm]

32. Not true.

[pnwmom]

34. That's not the big issue for me. The problem is that Sanders is determined to only take Federal matching

funding, which will put him at a huge disadvantage compared to the Koch-funded Rethug candidate. Hillary will have the resources to fight back.

Also, Sanders will lose some moderate and independent voters who are turned off by the "socialist' label.

So it isn't that Hillary's supporters won't vote for Sanders' supporters, or vice versa. It's that many of us doubt Sanders' ability to run the very strong national campaign that will be needed to win, by a big enough margin to overcome all the Rethug efforts to suppress the vote.

[Marr]

40. I've noticed that same thing.

Saying Hillary is electable but Sanders isn't because he's too far to the left is an open admission that conservative Dems, "moderates", "centrists"... whatever you want to call them... are not reliable and will abandon the party when they don't get their chosen candidate.

[orpupilofnature57]

44. I don't work on K-Street, but I have voted Democrat since I was 19 .

Bernie is a Democrat in word and action, Hillary does act like she's getting ready for a coranation .

[tritsofme]

46. Non sequitur. The logic in your argument just doesn't follow.

There were only some 40 million voters total in the 2008 Democratic Primary, and Obama won some 70 million votes in the GE.

In the fictional universe where Sanders gets the nomination, he could win every last "Clinton voter" and still be crushed in the general.

[Fumesucker]

50. It's not my argument, it's an argument implicit in "electability" claims

I'm not making any claims about electability I'm exploring the implications of those making the claims.

I hope this clarifies my OP sufficiently.

[tritsofme]

56. And I explained why that implication is a non sequitur

Which you have decided to ignore, apparently.

In the fictional universe where Sanders wins the nomination, every single Hillary voter could pull the lever for him in the general, and it wouldn't even be close to enough to win the election. He needs to find other voters if he is to win, Obama found about 30 million of them, so will Hillary.

The question is, could Bernie? And that question has nothing to do with Hillary. You can't just ignore independents because they are inconvenient to whatever point you are trying to make.

[jberryhill]

68. The implication is incorrect

The implication is that there are people who think there are independents who will break for Clinton, but not for Sanders.

[sadoldgirl]

48. As I see it, reading comments on other sites

this "problem" goes far beyond DU. This primary may show
a very clear split in the Dem party. Whether this split will
influence the GE remains to be seen. The TPA cloture vote
has stirred up many people and they show their anger
more and more. Even though technically Bernie is an
insider of DC, people see him as a vastly different candidate,
and they want that option.

[Renew Deal]

55. Your argument is missing one third of the electorate.

Democrats and Republicans will do what they do. Independents make the difference.

[TheProgressive]

57. I'm not a lawyer, but I believe this is called - speculation...

[mythology]

58. No it really doesn't,

unless you incorrectly assume the same universe of voters in the primary and general elections. Not only are there substantially more voters in general elections, they also include voters in closed primary states where an independent can't vote in the primary for a party.

http://www.commoncause.org/states/oregon/issues/voting-and-elections/measure-90/voter-choice-in-primary-vs.html

Historically speaking, primary voters have been found repeatedly to be more partisan than general election voters and prefer more ideologically extreme/pure depending on one's perspective. But you can ask Senators Richard Mourdock and Todd Akin about how well that works out sometimes.

http://www.jstor.org/stable/40263411?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Elections still aren't just about getting the base to the polls. It's about getting the base to work for the candidate in donating money, making phone calls, knocking on doors etc and if possible, expanding the base by edging up the margins of victory in groups that are already predisposed to voting for you. Look at how Obama won a greater percentage of the youth and minority vote. Those two groups are more likely to vote for Democrats, but Obama managed to get a larger share of those votes than other recent Democratic candidates, making up for a smaller percentage of white male voters.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/can-hillary-hold-together-the-obama-coalition/article/2562934

[JI7]

61. far more people vote in the general election than a primary

[upaloopa]

62. You can bet your ass Hillary supporters

will vote for the Democratic nominee in the general.
No one ever suggested otherwise.
With 60 point lead over Bernie Hillary is the most likely nominee. But if it is Sanders on the ticket we will not stay home. Anyone who says that isn't true is making shit up.

[jberryhill]

66. The general electorate is broader than the primary electorate

Independents determine the outcome.

[Historic NY]

67. Where are the Sanders vs the GOP horde...polls???????????????