The practical reason for polygamy in ancient times

[vinny9698]

Last edited Tue Jun 30, 2015, 10:48 AM - Edit history (1)

When warriors were getting ready to go to war, they knew that some would surely die. So they made pacs among themselves to take care of their families if they would die. After the battle the widows and family would move in with the surviving warriors.

Guys I am talking about Ancient Times, not todays polygamy.
Times change, evolve. People will justify their actions all the time.
Keep the time frame in mind. Biblical times, wars between tribes, Islam, Christianity, What to do with those orphans? The Quran provided the Muslims with a solution for those times. Not todays, life is so much more different that solution, polygamy is not needed today. But what solution was available for those times.

[Warren Stupidity]

1. The practical reason for polygamy in animals is for alpha males to propagate their genes maximally.

It is common in many mammals. It has nothing to do with noble warriors making mutually beneficial pacts to guarantee the safety of their families.

[luvspeas]

2. sooo do you have any evidence of this or did you just make it up? n/t

[vinny9698]

5. It is historical facts.

Remember back then there were no social benefits. Would you as an ancient warrior have your brother, or best friend take care of your family?
Polygamy - To Mothers of Orphans Only
The Qur'an only allows polygamy so that orphaned children
as well as their mothers are provided for.

No where in the Qur'an is it allowed to marry more than one wife for personal satisfaction. The verse regarding polygamy is set in the clear context of taking care of orphaned children. It specifies the only reasoning behind marriage to more than one woman:
http://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/polygamy_islam.html

[closeupready]

3. lol - I vote you made this up. It sounded good, so

you claim that's what happened.

[snooper2]

4. 15 Cats Who Are Tired Of Your Shit

[vinny9698]

7. Cats vs Quran

Quran is a historical book. Cats are just cats. BTW, I have two cats and I have yet to discuss biblical philosophy with them.

[snooper2]

10. cats don't do fundie-

[MineralMan]

6. Actually, you're incorrect.

The reason for polygyny (the more correct term) was to enable powerful men to impregnate as many women as possible.

Kings were big on that sort of thing in Old Testament times. Old Solomon had a whole harem full of wives. Apparently his deity approved of that arrangement, or maybe the arrangement approved of the deity. It's hard to tell, really, but from an atheist's perspective, all deities are created by humans anyhow, so the latter seems more likely to me.

[vinny9698]

13. There will always be people that abuse the system.

The Quran makes it pretty clear the only holy reason for polygamy was to take care of orphans and the widows. Now we know that people are greedy, it is human nature. And powerful men even now have several women on the side.
I am just presenting a valid reason for polygamy in ancient times. How would you take care of your brother's family back in ancient times? By moving them into your house hold? That was the only practical solution. Remember women back then were treated as property. And still are in the Middle East.

[MineralMan]

14. Moving them into your household does not require

marrying them, you see. It just requires helping take care of them.

People take others into their homes all the time, without forming anything like a marriage relationship. Caring for others does not necessarily mean having sex with them, you see.

I could bring my brother's wife and his children into my home, for example, without establishing any relationship like marriage with his wife. In fact, I wouldn't even think of doing establishing any such relationship, although I would gladly accept his family into my home if he died.

I have one wife. I have no desire for any additional wives. I imagine most men feel the same way.

Polygyny is a reproductive institution, designed to establish as large a line of genetic succession for a male as possible. Most societies rejected that institution long ago, and for excellent reasons.

[vinny9698]

16. Well it in ancient times bringing them into your house

You did not have to have sex with them. But legally the women were property to get a deed you had to marry. Some legal form
You are trying to compare today's logic with ancient logic. I am talking about a specific time in history, Biblical times, battles between tribes, Islam, Christianity. What to do with the orphans? Moving them in, no sex.

[Warren Stupidity]

24. "biblical times, battle between tribes, Islam, Christianity"

do you have a clue that you are blathering nonsense?

[Sheepshank]

8. Mormons used similar talking points to justify their polygamy.

Including the idea that there were more women than men in the era since so many men died in wars, were more susceptible to contagions since they visited the sick so often, and accidents on the farm, those pesky indians and simply being worn out from working so hard to provide for their families (census data refutes that argument). They also said that those mature and elderly widows had no way to take care of themselves and their children, and the righteous men would give them a home and safety. Of course that doesn't explain the 14 year old wives, but that's another story.

[0rganism]

32. it also explains the missionary thing

you can't default to having lotsa wives if the gender ratios aren't wildly out of balance. so what do you do if your a crusty old man who needs a few more young wives? you send the young men on a special journey...

[Snobblevitch]

36. Mormans practiced polygamy

(how much practice?) because they didn't have enough members...nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.

[Sheepshank]

38. practice makes perfect

just one more reason that adage really sucks

[jwirr]

42. "Be fruitful and multiply" was God's command in Genesis. What better way to accomplish it?

[1939]

44. Not true

Due to immigration imbalances, the ratio of men to women was quite high all during the 19th century in the US. There were the "glory years" of Mormon polygamy.

In the frontier west, the ratio was so high that women who worked in cathouses often ended up with marriages to solid citizens.e

[Sheepshank]

45. look up the census data for the period

I have in the past.

[Starry Messenger]

9. What about the 50 societies that practiced polyandry?

[corkhead]

11. does your theory apply to General Discussion: Primaries ?

[Maeve]

12. A reason, perhaps, but not THE reason

Since many women died in childbirth, it was handy to have spare mothers around, too.

Oh, and most societies that practiced polygamy did so long before the Prophet, so basing your argument on one religious text falls flat.

[vinny9698]

15. The Bible and the Quran were not written in a vacuum

They included the theories and reasons for doing things. I am just stating a reason, I am sure there are many more reasons. Long before the Prophet, there were battles, orphans, widows,
What was the solution for taking care of them? Bringing them into your house.

[treestar]

17. Every time they go on about traditional marriage and the Bible

Right wingers should be reminded of the polygamy in the Bible.

[joshcryer]

18. Humans evolved into monogamy hundreds of thousands of years ago.

While humans are not strictly, 100%, monogamous, there is an evolutionary advantage toward monogamy (especially in early humans). Polygamy (or slightly more accurate in your case, polygyny) was likely forced upon women in later times, as kings and warlords took over.

[oberliner]

19. Why not have multiple husbands then for each woman?

That way if one of their husbands is killed in battle, there are still others remaining to help take care of the woman and family.

See I think the real argument for polygamy is/was that men want to have sex with younger women after their wives get older and so they justify it with a lot of BS reasons.

[csziggy]

39. The one society that practiced polyandry covered in my "Kinship" class

When I was taking Anthropology, was in the Himalayas. The men were mostly traders who traveled away from the villages. The women stayed home, tended the crops and livestock and raised the children. The women often had more than one husband. Since the men were seldom home at the same time and often never returned, this gave the women more opportunities to have a man available to father children and for the men to return with their profits to benefit the family.

Now, it's been almost 40 years since I took that course so my memory is spotty, but that would be an effective strategy for a warrior based culture in which the men are away for campaigns or raids and the women stayed home to keep the family intact.

[GliderGuider]

20. Anthropologist Marvin Harris makes this same point.

In his anthropological framework called "Cultural Materialism", morality and other cultural behaviour is determined by the culture's situation with respect to its environment, resources, technology, population and the nature of its relationships with other groups. Seen in this light, polygamy is a natural cultural response to the attrition of warfare within small communities.

[vinny9698]

21. Thank you for making my point

Thanks again.
One has to look at the problem, what to do with orphans, from the point of view of ancient times and their culture.

[luvspeas]

26. What to do with orphans? You've used this as the basis for your hypothesis several time now...

So let's look at what humans currently do with orphans...

1. child soldiers
2. sex slaves
3. government chattel (i.e. foster care system; warehouse orphanages)
4. slave labor
5. beggers

So what makes having multiple wives has anything at all to do with orphans. Please quit now. You are barely making sense as it is and have provided zero evidence for your statement of fantasy.

And FYI-other people doing your research is not evidence.

[vinny9698]

30. Current vs Ancient

There is a difference. I am talking about ancient biblical times. For one reason not the only reason or nor the only way. Orphans come with moms, I am talking about widows with kids.
It is written in the Quran. Now you may not think the Quran is a legit book, but it is historical and gave guidance to its followers.

[luvspeas]

34. I can't anymore. sorry. I tried but I just can't n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

23. And, as with many animals...

one alpha male can protect his harem and impregnate them with his badass genes.

[maxsolomon]

22. Pacts

Not Pacs. A pac is a type of man, a Pac Man if you will.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

27. I thought the ancients were forming Polygamy Action Committees.

Citizens united, 3 or more at a time.

[geek tragedy]

25. Must. Not. Make. "We hunted the mammoth." Reference. nt

[luvspeas]

29. maybe they sent the war orphans out to hunt mammoth....

that's one solution

[vinny9698]

31. I am talking about biblical times, not cave men times.

[Warren Stupidity]

35. So exactly what years would that be?

What time frame do you imagine "biblical time" refers to?

[ismnotwasm]

33. I found a great article by him on this very topic

If I posted it, it would get alerted on and in the current atmosphere, hidden.

[Taitertots]

28. What's your point?

The practical reason is that people wanted to do it. If they still want to do it, the government shouldn't use violence to prevent it.

[NCTraveler]

37. Please take this as an honest question.

Throughout, you have kept going back to orphans. I think it is interesting that your comments in the op give the impression that they made sure their orphans would be cared for. Seems the argument is somewhat being made that orphans were cared for more then under those rules than today. I know it doesn't exactly work in the war example today, as that aspect is much different. But to be an orphan today often means you will lead a difficult life. Early life at least. Wars are much different today, so I am using an imperfect example. Is this an argument in favor of polygamy? I wouldn't be offended if it was. You say not needed today, yet the point you go back to again and again seems to favor it. Thanks.

[vinny9698]

40. I am not defending polygamy.

It is not needed today. I am just pointing out that in Biblical times, it was used to take care of families who had lost their husbands due to war. One reason, there are many more reasons or excuses for polygamy. What other way back in Biblical times was their to take care of orphans and widows? I am sure there were beggars, prostitutes, child slaves, all are listed in the Bible and Biblical history books.
I am not favoring it, but only in Biblical times. Islam especially has passages about it.

[Bluenorthwest]

43. Of course 'Biblical times' ended a few hundred years prior to the Koran, and of course Jesus

was fairly heavy into 'one wife, no divorce' toward the end of the Biblical arc. The New Testament takes place in an outpost of Empire, not a world of tribal battles but of Roman rule. The Romans and Greeks were not in fact polygamous.

[haele]

41. I could say with equal authority that Polygamy was a buffer against maternal deaths.

With 2,3 or 4 wives, if one died in childbirth, the surviving wives could take care of her kids as well as theirs.
And the senior wife was either the one who brought the largest dowry (coming from a "higher class) or was the one that survived into menopause.

That being said, marriage in most ancient cultures was a function of property rights, like land. Women and children were representative of resources or shares for a tribe that the alpha male of a tribe (or patriarch) would grant to subordinate males or to potential allies. When a woman was not property, it was usually because she had reached her full adult growth peak (probably around the age of 23/24) without exhibiting the potential ability to have children.
In those cases, she was either dropped into a similar status as a work animal (or slave), or she was allowed to take a subordinate male's position that would suit her abilities - usually some form of religious ceremonial role, as an entertainer, or in a logistical/clerical role.

Just my observation, from a dilettante's study of history and anthropology over the years.

Haele