General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhen it comes to Greece, why would ANY Du'ers believe Merkel/the EU/the IMF/the 1% ?
We're supposed to be a progressive, small-d "democratic" website. We're supposed to be skeptical of anything the established political and financial authorities of the world try to impose on us as dogma. We're not supposed to just take it on faith when the rulers try to impose austerity on whole nations and announce "there is no alternative" when anyone questions it.
Why would anyone here, on the non-reactionary part of the political spectrum, not call bullshit on what the economic rulers of Europe(and, essentially, the planet)are trying to impose on Greece...especially the idea that the people of Greece, the ordinary working stiffs, should have to suffer even more for what were only ever the crimes of the Greek oligarchs?
Does...not...compute...
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mythology
(9,527 posts)looking at the individual characteristics is silly? Greece hasn't given a realistic proposal for how they get out of their debt crisis other than keep having other people give them money. Well that only works until people stop giving them money.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)It does not need an austerity plan.
Germany was a shambles after WWII.
Watch this.
BERLIN - May 14, 1945 (HD)
4:58
BERLIN - May 14, 1945 (HD)
How did Germany rise from the destruction and destitution it suffered during the war to become the economic "miracle" it is known as today?
Well, it enjoyed a lot of debt forgiveness, and also economic aid from other countries including the US that helped it regain its economic footing.
Greece needs help. It is a strategically important country. It doesn't just need loans. It needs help in organizing and building its economy. It verges on being a third world nation but because it is located in Western Europe, no one admits this. It is a beautiful country, but it needs development and stronger legal traditions. Syriza is probably a step in the right direction in that it seems to be emphasizing citizen ownership of the government's decisions.
I will repeat that Greece left the Ottoman Empire in 1821 and as recently as 1973 or 1974 was ruled by a military junta that was so backward that it prohibited the importation of magazines and news media from outside, news media like the London Financial Times and Time Magazine as I recall.
The Greek people need help just as the German people needed help after WWII.
Think of it. Germany was the nation of NAZIs that killed so many Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and disabled people. Yet we helped them find and use their own resources to become an economic powerhouse with a decent system and government. Angela Merkel grew up in East Germany and may not appreciate just how much help West Germany received after WWII.
The Greek debt crisis is shocking, but when you think about Greece, and if you have ever been there, the mos shocking thing is that money was loaned to it in these amounts without much cognizance of the need for deep reform from the get-go. Who in the world loaned all this money without knowledge of a plan for development of the country, a feasible plan? They are to blame, not the ordinary Greek people who have had little to say through the years about the economic development of their country and who have been left to the devices of incompetent leaders.
tech3149
(4,452 posts)In the most simple analysis of the situation it's a lender borrower agreement. Most of the noise I see trying to put all the blame on Greece never seem to involve themselves with too much history or too many facts so it seems best to reduce the discussion to its most minimal aspects.
In any debtor creditor relationship both parties bear the responsibility of engaging in a deal that is likely to have a positive outcome.
Any lender that risked so much without a substantial understanding the risk of non repayment is either foolish or playing some other nefarious deal to profit from a losing bet.
.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)But everyone likes to dogpile on the "irresponsible."
I don't see them dogpiling on ourselves for letting Bush steal 6x+ as much from our treasury and sticking us with the bill. The difference here is that we have our own currency to devalue and a millitary bigger than any other.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)"The economy is just like your kitchen table checkbook."
The fallacy of that... is in orders of magnitude...
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)at those 4 people,institutions etc, I hope that you
realize that Bulgaria, Finland and other parties in
the Eurozone are totally against supporting Greece
at their expense. Do you blame poor Bulgaria
for its resistance?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)That's how the EU works.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)that keeps claiming that Finland is cheering austerity for Greece or GTFO to cite it.
Finland is more than capable of speaking for itself, and I think most Finns would prefer that you don't speak for them.
former9thward
(32,019 posts)Provide a link where Finland has taken the side of Greece.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Never take free financial advice from anybody. Nobody gives free financial advice, and if they do, do the exact opposite.
cemaphonic
(4,138 posts)It's absolutely true that Greece has few friends left among the poorer nations in the EZ, especially compared to the sentiment in 2010 or 2012.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,321 posts)"I am an eternal optimist. I think in the end, there will be some sort of a solution (for Greece)," Stubb told Deutsche Welle in the interview that was conducted on Tuesday evening and aired on Wednesday morning.
"We are not throwing Greece out, we don't want a Grexit. But it's clear that everybody has to be prepared for all possible outcomes," Stubb added. "Time is simply running out."
He underlined that Finland had a similar stance to Germany. "If we talk about debt cuts, a restructuring of debt or something like that, then that's a 'no go' for the Finnish government," Stubb said. (Reporting by Michael Nienaber,)
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/08/eurozone-greece-finland-stubb-idUSB4N0Z801J20150708
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Like "Greece," it is a government - currently one on the same suicidal path of austerity that was forced on Greece and caused the depression here. So "poor Bulgaria" is bullshit - the real left is out on the streets there opposing austerity, as in many of these other countries run by neoliberal and right-wing governments. Across Europe these neoliberal austerity and right-wing regimes were elected, and given the total failure of their pro-1% policies they can also be voted out of office. That is the only reason they're not accepting the Greek capitulation deals, by the way. Greece should and probably will default to free itself from the odious debt and the straitjacket of austerity.
marym625
(17,997 posts)They don't know what is going on? They' don't care? They're third wayers?
Populist_Prole
(5,364 posts)Number one and number four. Socially liberal but economically conservative types.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)They are not all part of one giant evil conspiracy to ruin life for the Greek people.
Would you support giving the German people the right to reject a Greek bailout via referendum?
The 'economic rulers' of Europe are voters.
Peace Patriot
(24,010 posts)But let's hope that the voters of Greece start that trend.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Merkel is the best friend Greece has inside Germany.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)She's all that's standing between them and the "GREXIT" door.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)The number of right-wing and neoliberal governments in Europe fucking over their own people and determined to strangle Greece's doesn't really concern me. They were elected and they can be voted out - watch it happen to many of them in the next couple of years, while Syriza remains in power.
And when you reach for "conspiracy" you show your own bankruptcy. The austerity programs are all out in the open, and they have ruined life for Greek people, which is why last Sunday they voted to fight back.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)that I believe Greece is doing the right thing.
Don't mistake people that live in France making a flurry of posts in the last few days for a "consensus". There isn't one at DU, just a couple of posters trying to scream bloody murder because Greece decided they would not be crippled.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)DU has previously rallied around Robert Mugabe, Hugo Chavez and now Maduro. They will ride Greece and Tsipras into the ground too.
Just because these clowns hit all the right rhetorical notes that a sympathetic audience is looking for doesn't mean they're actually well positioned or capable of materially improving the situation in their countries.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)that were or are blindly celebrated by the Western far left because they say all the kooky stuff they wish their leaders would say.
Greece has been rotting from the inside out for the last fifty years and the EU has spent a ridiculous amount of money pretending that barely functioning, barely first-world economies are really Western European economies. There has to be a point where they say no and Tsipras seems like a very, very easy person to say no to.
And then people will run around declaring victory over Merkel as Greeks gloriously receive their full benefits in Greek Bolivars when the only people who get to eat and wipe their asses are those with Euros.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)The point is, the Greek people are totally innocent of the problems their oligarchs caused...so the people themselves shouldn't have to suffer in the name of solving those problems. That's how a decent person would see it.
The plain fact is, there isn't anything that still CAN be cut. It would be indecent to cut pensions any more deeply, or to cut any more public service jobs. And doing either of those things would mean that no Greek government could ever do anything progressive or humane at any point in the future. It would also make further elections in Greece pointless, since it can't matter who administers a program of permanent misery-all austerity programs are exactly the same, and progressives should feel obligated, out of simple common humanity, to oppose the imposition of any further austerity on anyone else anywhere.
And given the economic and fiscal recklessness that's defined so much of American politics since 1981, who is any American to judge any other country on anything?
sgtbenobo
(327 posts)"And given the economic and fiscal recklessness that's defined so much of American politics since 1981, who is any American to judge any other country on anything?"
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)I doubt a even a 50% plus one majority is totally innocent.
The problem with cutbacks, and this became extremely clear when California had our IOU drama is that the wealthy and middle class just don't use that much in the way of direct government services. If budget cuts are required they're going to affect those who actually receive services.
There isn't really anything that can be done at this point that will meaningfully improve the situation on the ground in Greece. The issue is that in the long-run Greece is going to be infinitely better off as part of the EU and Euro. Like international trade agreements, there is very little to be gained from not being part of the club.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Most of the knee-jerk ideologues around here, who are advocating that Greece just slam the door and walk away, fail to grasp this salient fact.
They would also seem to be unaware of this recent poll of the Greeks and their feelings about the euro:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141137547#post34
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)One can advocate for all sorts of reckless things when they have never really faced the possibility of having a wallet full of useless currency. No matter what economic disasters hit the US they aren't going to find US businesses demanding payment in something other than US dollars.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)I further left than you are! I'm super liberal!
Meanwhile on their other browser they are logged onto FordCredit.com making the monthly car payment to the evil capitalist that funded that 2014 Focus ST they just HAD to have 
hunter
(38,317 posts)And yep, I'm further left than most here, a radical socialist, and a radical environmentalist.
I boycott most everything, I believe the uber-wealthy classes should be taxed out of existence, and that 51% of an economy ought to be owned and controlled by the people as a democracy, leaving the rest of the economy to flourish as a free market very favorable to small and innovative business.
I think ordinary Greek people are getting screwed over by big money.
So are U.S.A. people.
Throd
(7,208 posts)You should lend them some of your own money without asking for any reforms, decency and all that.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts) Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)It's indecent to talk that way about your fellow human beings.
Only the rich in Greece were to blame, and only the rich should have to suffer. How hard is that to understand?
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)That is actually a remarkably difficult thing to do.
The rich have the Euros, Dollars and Pounds and a nice place in Saint-Tropez. So instead of plotting a revolution, how do you propose Greece do things such as keeping their oil refineries running?
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Horsepucky!
Greeks (ALL CLASSES INCLUDED) have made tax avoidance an art form and benefit fraud a way of life. Who elected the governments that allowed the massive abuses to go on unhindered?
As much as I love the Greek people and their glorious land where I have stayed for months, I cannot say that their society is one of financial probity.
Hard working? Clever? Warm and welcoming? They sure are.
But, honest, trustworthy and incorruptible? Not so much, as regards their public comportment.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And the Greek people themselves, who had little ability to stop the tax avoidance of the rich(SYRIZA is the first major party in decades to talk seriously about collecting the taxes of the wealthy) should not be punished for crimes they did not collectively commit.
But you've outed yourself with that last post.
This isn't about anything but hatred of the entire country for you. You want Greece destroyed as a country because they aren't Germany. Thank Christ they aren't...Germany is a heartless, inflexibly arrogant nation with no remaining sense of social justice or even of common humanity.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Of course, I loathe Greece, her people, her culture, her history and her 'glorious land', as I openly said in that post.
Here's more proof of my GREEK HATRED (and German adoration, too):
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And that if Greece surrenders to Merkel, no Greek government will ever be able to be progressive in the slightest way again-small government and progressive change can never co-exist.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)going to hoist Greece or her euro-zone partners, (who are all in this shit-pile together) out of the miasma where we presently find ourselves.
And, FWIW, I'll gladly pit my in-the-trenches, European 'humanist' bona fides against your ideological, on-paper ranting any time.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Or dismiss an entire nation as nothing but crooks and fraudsters.
If Greece were allowed to use QE like the other EU countries, it wouldn't have a debt that looked this bad. Every government on the planet has debt...none have ever been debt-free, and none ever could be.
You're far more of an ideologue in defense of "market values" than I am in the cause of basic human decency and social and economic justice. It's not ideology to say that the people shouldn't have to suffer for the tax avoidance of the rich(and for the essentially predatory loans the financial-industrial complex induced past Greek governments to take out).
The only decent thing is to give Greece the same treatment postwar Germany got...a clean slate and a fresh start. And since Greece isn't guilty of anything remotely similar to the crimes of prewar Germany, why shouldn't it get at least the same fair treatment? Why should Greeks be treated worse than the people who backed Hitler?
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)understand that what's at stake here does not fit a black/white paradigm.
Banks, other EU finance ministers.....BAD
Destroy - Annihilate
Greece, corrupt officials, on-the-take functionaries, catastrophic tax code.....GOOD
Give blank check - Wipe slate clean
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)as did past functionaries and the past catastrophic tax code...NONE of which the SYRIZA government, the new government, is responsible for.
And none of which can be addressed by forcing Greece into even greater austerity and poverty. Countries under austerity never develop a more transparent political/economic model. You can't starve a nation into rectitude.
And the pensioners and civil servants who Merkel wants to suffer any more aren't to blame for any of those things. You don't understand how Greek politics work and how the combination of oligarchic greed and predatory international lending helped cause this.
BTW...as to taxes, Merkel is against letting Greece increase taxes. She wants the debt cleared solely through cuts-which is an immoral thing to demand. There's nothing left TO cut-everything's already been cut to the bone.
Poverty is up by 40% since the austerity was imposed from outside...unemployment has soared. Pensioners have committed suicide because the pensions were cut below survivability level(and no "just getting jobs" was not an option for most of them).
The punishment phase needs to end already.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)And you do?
Greece's structural weaknesses date back to her centuries as a vassal of the Ottoman Empire. In many fundamental ways, Greece is more middle-eastern than European, notwithstanding the fact that she 'invented' democracy.
The propensity for murky politics, the love of intrigue and wheeling/dealing, the opaque nature of her public institutions.
As somebody said elsewhere, she needs a thorough, under-the-hood overhaul. If she just gets a debt write-off and more no-strings money to tide her over, nothing will change. And, her fellow Europeans know this perfectly well.
The present crisis has been brewing since she joined the EU and then fraudulently found her way into the euro-zone.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)No nation has ever been immiserated into political and economic transparency.
Greece does not need economic Puritanism, and it's unfair to treat the entire nation as if it's a prisoner doing time.
And again, it's inherently unjust to treat Greece now more harshly than Germany was treated after 1945. If Germany could get a fresh start after the Third Reich, why shouldn't Greece get one now? The German people, by and large, were in league with Hitler. The Greek people, by and large, have not been in league with the corruption perpetrated by their country's oligarchs-corruption the people were powerless to stop.
A lot of people are really getting in touch with their inner Cotton Mather when they talk about Greece these days-it's shameful and disgusting to see such totally unjustified sanctimony and judgmentalism.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)More black and white thinking, I see.
Yeah, yeah, it's only those wicked oligarchs who evade taxes, abuse the benefits system, and keep Greece's public coffers perpetually empty.
Those doctors and dentists, shop-keepers and traders who declare € 12,000 yearly income are honest as the day is long.
"The Greek people, by and large," have been used to fiddling the system for decades.
As for this inner 'Cotton Mather' you are apparently imputing to me, I'd say no, rather a finely-honed sense of fairness and right/wrong.
Belonging to the EU and the euro-zone represents a great privilege, but also an immense responsibility to your fellow EU partners.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Greece will leave the eurozone
That is what the EU says, and is likely to happen. Without a deal, it will be cut off from long-term funding from the European Central Bank, and will have to default more widely on its debts. The assumption is that it will effectively devalue by printing its own currency, and start again. However, both the Greek government and some financial analysts say there is no reason why it should not default on its debts, agree a new financing deal, and stay in the euro. Although the EU will not want to agree this, it may in the end prefer it to a breach of the principle that eurozone membership is irreversible.
Greece will run out of cash
All eyes will turn to the ECB, which on Monday will have to decide whether to continue to extend its emergency financial lifeline to the Greek banks. The Greek banks are at risk because they carry a heavy exposure to their government's own debt. If the government can’t pay, and the banks go bust, then … it is not clear what happens to savers’ money.
Greece will have to find a factory to print drachmas
British firms like De La Rue, which prints 150 currencies worldwide, are believed to have been contacted with a view to providing such services. It's done in great secrecy to prevent currency speculation. The other big problem is the logistical challenges of switching a currency. All ATMs, computers and other machinery of commerce that bears the euro symbol will have to be adjusted. It could, and would, take months.
Greece’s economy will (still) be in ruins
Many Greeks see the austerity reforms as a much-needed measure to make the country more economically dynamic. They fear that leaving the Eurozone will make Greece even more backward, and remove the one powerful check on Syriza's more radical elements. Feelings are running high on both sides.
________________________
It's not a question of what I want. It's a question of what Greece can and will do, now that they've lost the trust of their European partners.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)What I was trying to imply was that in the short run the Greeks have very little that they can do; Germany, and the EU, on the other hand---- who are complicit in this mess--have many options.
Critics act like only Greece is responsible. "They've lost the trust of their European partners"--trust goes both ways. The EU can operate as a democracy, or an empire; seems to me they've opted for the latter. Having a fiscal union without a political one is the base of the problem. Imagine how it would be if the individual American states required all tax monies be spent within their own borders, instead of pooling the money for the common good--including propping up less prosperous states (and yes, I realize how dysfunctional the government is right now).
It will be interesting to see how the U.S. deals with Puerto Rico.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)But, even with closer political integration, Greece, with its inherent structural weaknesses and failings, couldn't stand up to the discipline or scrutiny.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)Wow. What do you think they've been doing for seven years, even after having been set up to fail? The austerians imposed conditions on them in 2010 knowing then that they would not succeed in retiring their debt. It was entirely punitive, meant to keep them in line, elites picking the pockets of the weak. Disaster capitalism! It is by now an old story, and should be familiar. They did it again in 2012. Now they are trying to oust the new, democratically-elected government of Greece--which inherited this mess, much like Obama inherited Bush's....
And nobody--Nobody!--is advocating continuing as they are, without reforms of their tax laws especially.
Saying that Greece with its "inherent structural weaknesses and failings" is incapable of "standing up to the discipline or scrutiny" smacks of bigotry. If that is how you actually think, there is nothing more to discuss.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)right of regulatory oversight, is required for a currency system to work, and to be trusted in world financial markets.
As for my supposed 'bigotry' towards the Greek people, culture and land?
I believe I've addressed such a charge here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026950610#post42
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026950610#post57
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026950610#post59
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Here is what Berlin was like after WWII:
BERLIN - May 14, 1945 (HD)
4:58
BERLIN - May 14, 1945 (HD)
Videos of the Berliners after the war. We helped Germany by forgiving some of its debt and by offering assistance. Greece as well as some other poorer European countries need help in organizing and developing their economies.
We have invested so much in the Third World. We need to look at countries in Eastern and Southern Europe that are having an even more difficult time competing with the Third World than we are.
Greece could be a great source for solar energy if we could develop the batteries or transmission systems that could cause solar energy to be transferable. It's a matter of prioritizing the research on solving that technological problem, meeting that challenge.
I firmly believe that we will do it. But a lot of conservative forces (oil companies for example) are not anxious to invest talent, money and time in researching and developing the technology that will make solar energy a truly economical and efficient source for the world.
Go, Bernie. We can do this. MIT had a solar run house way back in the 1970s. I saw a presentation by MIT scientists on their solar energy house way back in January 1974.
Greece would benefit from such technology. Germany would benefit if it could somehow import some solar energy from Greece.
Throd
(7,208 posts)bhikkhu
(10,718 posts)to refinance prior loans, which seem to have been poorly managed and poorly spent. I can't imagine a lender not wishing to see some things sorted out prior to loaning more money.
I think everyone would agree that reforms are needed and that "the past", as far as how the Greek government handled things, led to the present. As far as details, I hope they work out a compromise that works well and that all parties can live with.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)exceeds current tax revenue. If they went back to their own currency they could just print the
difference, but eventually they'll have to bring tax revenue more in line with income else the
"inflation tax" will cripple their economy.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Well, the black/white ideologues will tell you that you're being "anti-humanist, sanctimonious and judgmental" (direct quote here).
How dare you suggest that future lending might legitimately be tied to conditions for reform? You Cotton Mather, you! 
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Merkel is making clear that the EC and ECB want their money back. What about this situation is a question of "belief"?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And there's nothing else Greece can cut. They can't make pensions any lower or put any more public employees out of work, for God's sakes. There's nothing left.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)liquidate the old and sick, whom everyone knows are just parasites, appropriate all Greek businesses and force the Greeks to work for slave wages while pocketing the profits. They've done it before in their history.
The enthusiasm and outright glee I see from some here about imposing abject misery on the ordinary people of Greece makes me 
hill2016
(1,772 posts)and no amount of ideology can cover that
would YOU lend money to Greece? would you ask your pension or 401k plan to invest in Greek bonds? Should the US lend money to Greece?
pkdu
(3,977 posts)too many rally without thinking to the Left wing cause without question. Greece fucked up , so did their lenders...its needs a joint agreement to resolution. You shouldnt borrow hunderds of Billions of dollars in loans and think you can walk away without consequences. YOUR government made those deals. Didnt vote that time...DEAL WITH IT.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)No one but the oligarchs should have to suffer for what the oligarchs did.
You are showing no humanity here.
And it wasn't your money anyway, so why be so sanctimonious about this?
The fault lies solely with the oligarchs, and Greece can't cut anything else and still remain a civilized country.
pkdu
(3,977 posts)Greece owns is own problem , all of them , yes including the oligarchs , but all of them.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)first place. Instead, we should have had and should not begin an economic development plan for Greece that is adopted by the Greek people as their own.
Germany was a shambles after WWII. Everyone forgets about all the loan forgiveness and help they got to become an economic powerhouse.
Here is a video that shows what Berlin looked like after WWII. Germans are hard working and well organized. But they could not have recovered from this chaos without a lot of help and support from other countries, especially the US. Angela Merkel grew up in East Germany which did not enjoy the prosperity of West Germany. I don't think she appreciates what it took to make West Germany what it is today.
BERLIN - May 14, 1945 (HD)
4:58
BERLIN - May 14, 1945 (HD)
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Why does Merkel want Greece treated WORSE than postwar Germany was? Greece isn't in the situation it's in because it had a leader who was trying to take over Europe and impose an agenda of racial/ethnic/religious extinction.
How DARE she demand that Greece suffer in a way Germany was never made to suffer then?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)A Polish woman told me in the early 1980s that when the Polish bought food in the stores, there was always a bin where they would donate a potato to Russia. I doubt that was true, but the point was that satellite states pay tribute to a dominant state like Russia.
Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire, and the Greek people and their economy suffered under that rule until 1821.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Greece
Compare that to the countries that have ties to the British Empire. As exploitative as the British Empire was, it somehow brought a legal system and a value of fairness that was better than what the Ottoman Empire brought to Greece.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Good God...she'll be breaking out the spiked feathered helmets soon if she keeps up like that.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)On the other hand the Germans keep their jackboots spit shined to a mirror like gleam and their trains all run on time.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)
CountAllVotes
(20,875 posts)They cannot even keep their airline Lufthansa working properly (old outdated junker airplanes is the reality of Lufthansa). I was stuck in Frankfurt for three long days trying to get back to the USA a number of years ago and no, I was not impressed by anything, I was pissed!
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I was impressed by the determination and good organization of the Germans.
But after WWII, their economy and lives were a shambles.
Here is what it was like.
BERLIN - May 14, 1945 (HD)
4:58
BERLIN - May 14, 1945 (HD)
West Germany recovered only with debt forgiveness and lots of help. Angela Merkel grew up in East Germany. She may not appreciate the help that Germany received from the US among other countries. She may not realize that Germany was forgiven a lot of debt after WWII.
The world has focused so much on developing the Third World and on "free" trade. Greece is not the only country that has been neglected in terms of its economic development and that cannot compete or hold up its economic head.
You do realize that Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire until 1821. It does not have the benefit of the traditions of law that the British gave us or that Roman Law gave to much of Europe.
The Greek experience under the Ottoman rule (Turkish rule) was not one that prepared Greece for democracy or for a healthy economy on the beautiful but difficult Greek terrain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Greece
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)or give them any. Greece could renounce their debt as "odious", leave the Euro and go back to their own currency
but even so at a certain point they have to bring their tax collection more in line with their spending.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)I am by no means a financial wiz, in fact I'm the exact opposite. But we all know the role the banks play and it's not good when tocomes to screwing people out of money.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)If you say something and it sounds exactly like something a conservative would say, that is a good time to study what you said and figure out if it's really true.
DesMoinesDem
(1,569 posts)It's like going into a bank demanding they give you money that you can never repay and ranting about how you shouldn't believe anything they say.
Does...not...compute...
jeff47
(26,549 posts)lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Excellent questions, Ken Burch. The answer is in the money. Who's got it. Who gets it. Who keeps it. Who pays it. And money is at the root of the decay of Democracy.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Must be subject to the most draconian punishments imaginable for things they had no say in.
Those responsible for the disaster must be allowed to keep the fruits of their thievery and dishonesty. And praised and further rewarded when possible.
Didn't you learn anything from the 2008 crash?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"We're supposed to be skeptical of anything..."
Which I believe entails skepticism of unfounded allegations and editorial, as well.