If Greece wins, working people EVERYWHERE win.

[Ken Burch]

If the SYRIZA government can defeat the EC/IMF/Merkel demands for brutal, life-crushing austerity, all the other "have-not" countries in Europe will stand up to the Eurocrats and reshape the economic and political order on that continent.

If they can do that, the idea of an austerity-free, economically democratic, cooperatively-run world will spread. And it will take root even more deeply here than it already has since the early days of Occupy...it will spread into the general middle-class, among poc and LGBTQ people, among working-class people of all races and ethnicities, and if it prevails here, we, the people of the world, will be, for the first time in history, truly free.

If you want anything progressive in life, any future for the world where we aren't forced to claw each other apart just to survive on a daily basis, you should be cheering Prime Minister Tsipras, the SYRIZA party, and the 61% of Greeks who just voted to stand with their government in its fight against the completely unreasonable and arrogant position Angela Merkel and the Eurogarchs are taking.

As Leon Rosselson's "The World Turned Upside Down" put it:

"You poor take courage,
You rich take care.
This world was made a common treasury
For everyone to share".

[newthinking]

1. Germany backed itself into a corner with the harsh rhetoric

and politicians have so divided their populations that I have to wonder if anything reasonable will come forth.

It seems like at this point they just want to make an "example" of Greece.

All this is hollow when if people would actually look at the monetary system.... in reality practically every freaking country has massive debt, but some countries get to print massive QE to hide that debt and others are left without that option.

QE is ongoing and the EU is printing massive money right now. And giving it away at very low interest. Yet they have purposely not allowed Greece to participate in it.

As for the rhetoric, politicians have effectively divided other countries populations against Greece. They are oh so "irresponsible". I love it when particularly our own countrymen make this claim, as we sit on top of a far greater mountain of debt: Only with control of the world's money supply.

We need to wake up to the massive distortions and usery; political gamesmanship that divides us against each other. "We are Greece", just not the current target!

[Ken Burch]

2. "Je suis Grèce" "Greek Lives Matter".

The connection is right there to be made.

One of the most sickening things in German politics is that the Social Democrats, the second-largest party and Merkel's junior partner in the "Grand Coalition", are backing her all the way on this. You'd think they'd remember what brutal austerity conditions imposed from outside did to the Weimar Republic, and who those conditions eventually put into power.

[DFW]

32. Umm, well.......

The Germans didn't appreciate the Greeks publicly calling them Nazis, or Merkel, whose family moved from West Germany to East Germany in the early days after the war, being painted by the Greeks with a Hitler moustache, just like the teabaggers did with Obama (the parallel was not lost on the Germans, either).

No one had a monopoly on harsh rhetoric, and the German taxpayers were not thrilled about coughing up more money for Greece after having been called Nazis.

[magical thyme]

45. ~90% of the "money for Greece" actually went to bail out *private banks*

and the Troika turned those *private bank* bail outs into *public liabilities* on the Greek people. The Greek people didn't get the benefits of those loans; the banksters did.

It was not unlike us being stuck bailing out our private banks back in '08, only we didn't get a heaping helping of "austerity" on top of their bailouts to ensure our economy was crushed.

[passiveporcupine]

3. Power to the people

[snooper2]

33. Everything will be people power when they can't afford electricity and gas

Well, they'll still have the wheel at least

[DetlefK]

4. Oh, you are so CUTE when you get delusional.

Greece cannot "win". Greece is a country with massive debt, next to no industry, tax-loop-holes for the 1% and systemic corruption.

Greece is NOT the morally superior rebel in this scenario.

Greece fucked up. BIG TIME.

The best Greece can hope for is a scenario where it will somehow eventually get back on its own feet in some kind of sense. That is not "victory".

And once Greece somehow eventually got back on its own feet, precisely ZERO will change. Greece means nothing.



And don't get too cocky with the referendum: This was just a national poll. It means that the greek government has the permission to keep doing what they are doing anyways and it means precisely NOTHING to the rest of the planet.

[Ken Burch]

5. Go to bed, Chancellor Merkel.

[underahedgerow]

6. I agree completely. Pretending Merkel is some evil witch preying upon poor defenseless lil

Greeks is just silly.

If Greece doesn't want to play by EU rules, then they can sort themselves out.

I am thinking however, now is a very good time to invest in Greek commerce & real estate for the long haul. I have some friends visiting their family home for the summer there, shall give them a call for a good chat!

[Ken Burch]

7. The Greek people are not to blame-it was the oligarchs and the previous governments

It's immoral to punish the many for the crimes of the few.

Only the rich Greeks and the defeated old political class should be having to suffer.

It's not as simple as "play(ing) by EU rules". If Greece were allowed to do the same things other EU countries are allowed to do, like print QE, this situation would not be a problem. And if postwar Germany(which deserved far more punishment than Greece does, if the Greece as a nation deserves any punishment at all) had been subjected to the demands Merkel is making on Greece(a country that has never done any harm to her country at any point in history), it would have collapsed(probably unifying under Communist rule, since no one could have made any case that they had anything to gain by backing capitalist democracy in that situation).

[underahedgerow]

8. Oh please. The Greek people's outright FRAUD played a huge part in this crisis. When 600 people on

one island are raking in disability pensions for being 'blind' -- including a TAXI driver, I have no pity.

Thousands of people in Greece are oddly over the age of 100, still collecting pensions. A check determined that they've been dead for decades and the families still take their checks.

Tax evasion, fraud, laziness... when people willfully choose to defraud their own government, they clearly defraud only themselves. They are part and parcel of the entire problem and I have no pity at all. Their own self serving fraud costs their own government, and now themselves, BILLIONS every year, so they can only blame themselves.

Let them get out of the EU and sort themselves out. If they don't like the rules, too bad.

You're making this a personal and political issue, where it's a simple fiscal irresponsibility issue. Tough lessons are what's needed here, not throwing more money at greed and corruption. That would just be stupid, and Merkel is spot on.

[Ken Burch]

10. I doubt you have any pity for anybody, anywhere.

And even if all this were true, it goes without saying that collectively punishing the entire population of the country is neither fair nor likely to be effective in changing any of the things you've listed.

And the vast majority of Greeks did not willfully defraud their government or exhibit "laziness"-most of them worked just as hard as you do.

You still haven't made a case for the idea that Greece should be treated worse by Germany than Germany was by European creditors, right after Germany had done all it could to execute every Jew, gay, Roma, leftist and Jehovah's Witness on the continent.
What have the Greek people done that could possibly be worse than the Holocaust?

Greece has suffered enough already. The time for punishment and austerity is over.

[underahedgerow]

12. Germany is PRODUCTIVE. Germany makes some of the finest automobiles on the planet, what does Greece

have to show for its productive prowess? Seaside cottages and restaurants and some olive oil.

Why you're dragging the horrid history of Germany from 60 years ago to make a comparative case for helping Greece out, I don't know. One has NOTHING to do with the other. You're turning financial failure into a personal issue, somehow and I have no interest in debating a moot point.

This report, which I've read, http://www.mckinsey.com/locations/athens/GreeceExecutiveSummary_new/pdfs/Executive_summary_English.pdf

is written BY Greeks FOR Greeks and outlines specific problems and the lack of any attempt to address the economic and productivity and investment disparities, but it does provide solutions that should have been well heeded... but they weren't.

So it's not our battle to fight. Merkel's stance is correct. The Greek government has to handle it's own problems without the financial support of the EU unless it chooses to adopt the EU endorsed plan of action for fiscal recovery. It's just that simple.

[Ken Burch]

21. Germany is only productive BECAUSE it was given a fresh start after the war.

Germany could never have become an economic powerhouse of any sort if it had been treated as Greece is being treated now.

And it's enough that Tsipras offered compromise with Merkel in the talks. She had no moral right to demand total capitulation.

[hifiguy]

41. Not to mention a massive infusion of cash

from a little program called the Marshall Plan.

Jebus, do people know ANY history???

[DetlefK]

18. Germany was forgiven its debts because of the Soviet Union.

The choice was simple: Who do the Allies want at the western border of the Soviet Union? A poor, weak, bitter Germany? Or a productive, strong, loyal Germany?



Greece cannot even offer political animosity. They spent big and mismanaged their economy and now they have no wager left to secure anything but a painful solution.

[Recursion]

26. Stopping loans to someone isn't "punishment"

A centralise European fiscal policy would be better, but there isn't one, and the Greeks did pretty enthusiastically sign up for a monetary union without one.

[newthinking]

35. The trouble is not that the trioka is "not just loaning", they have purpously

gamed the situation.

The Trioka are BANKERS who while they provide loans they have been userous. And their requirements have pushed not only Greece but other EU countries into more reliance on their loans.

The situation (as usual) is far more complicated than the talking points (narrative's). Yes Greece has work and change to do, but to blame this soley on the greek people is not much different than blaming the 2008 banking crisis on homebuyers without recognizing the loan sharks that preyed an the damage the banks themselves, through greed and poor policy, contributed.

[snooper2]

34. Just because a country elected the farthest left leader they can find doesn't mean they are AWESOME!

You haven't posted about Maduro much...

How's he doing these days LOL

[Ken Burch]

37. Things aren't going well there...

...but they'd be worse if Capriles had bought a victory and was massively increasing inequality...

[Adrahil]

43. Oh yeah, nobody could possibly do better, right?

Sometimes you can right the responses before they come. Predictable.

[Ken Burch]

44. The capitalists had brought the country to near-collapse by the time Chavez was elected.

All Capriles wants is to turn VZ back into an American economic colony, like Dubya wanted.

And support for privatizing the oil refineries is totally inconsistent with wanting a decent life for workers and the poor.

[NobodyHere]

24. With all that fraud

It's no wonder people of all classes seek to avoid paying taxes.

[The2ndWheel]

11. Where was Greek democracy when their leaders were screwing them?

Where were the pissed off masses voting no more money that we can't pay back?

Everyone, the people, the oligarchs, took advantage of the situation. As long as everything is growing, you can move numbers around, make them say whatever you want, and everyone is happy, because everyone gets what they want. When things stop working though, nobody wants to lose any money. Nobody wants to pay their debts, and nobody wants to cut their losses.

All these numbers either mean something, or they don't. If they don't, then debt can be limitless, and I don't know why we don't just give everyone on the planet a million digits in their bank accounts, and call it a day. If they do mean something, then both lenders and borrowers need to be smarter. They both need to ask questions of the other, and themselves. However, if they start doing that, then things stop working so well. Then it becomes tougher to circulate money. That's not good for either side. So we end up lending and borrowing with no concern for what any of it means. We know what happens when we start doing that.

[Ken Burch]

13. Some of the time, Greek democracy was gone

Such as during the times like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E2%80%9374

And sometimes it was betrayed, such as when PASOK, the former social democratic party, abandoned all principles and joined a tax-cutting coalition government with the New Democracy party.

So it's not as freaking simple as saying that the people could have stopped the oligarchs at any time-

Therefore, collective punishment and smug utterances like "there is no alternative" are totally unjustified.

And there isn't anything left to cut. Pensions can't go an lower. Government employment and spending can't be cut any more.

[The2ndWheel]

16. I'm not talking about military junta's from the 60's

I'm talking about today. It's not like the Greek people were saying no to getting more money. That's also not picking on the Greeks. All people do that. Nobody says no to more money, wherever it comes from. Nobody really has to moral high ground. People are giving money with conditions that probably can't be met. People are accepting money without questioning where it's coming from, how to pay it back, etc.

The only way we get here is borrower and lender doing what they need to do right now, because the short term always takes precedence over the long term. In every human situation.

[randome]

17. By that logic, we should never need to pay reparations to Iraq.

I didn't do anything over there, did you?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[Ken Burch]

19. That analogy would make sense...

...if Greece had launched an unprovoked war against Germany and killed between 500,000 and 2 million innocent German civilians...

In the reality-based world, in the sanity-based world, it totally doesn't work.

[Recursion]

27. No, the analogy works exactly, because the US government, not people, launched the war

Why should I have to pay anything because of what my government does?

[Ken Burch]

38. Nothing the Greeks did equates to launching a war. n/t.

[hifiguy]

40. The only thing the Greek people, as opposed to their oligarchs,

the Troika, and the other assorted banksters, are guilty of is getting fucked and shucked, pumped and dumped by those three named groups. Period.

[customerserviceguy]

14. I agree

Not very long from now, the Greeks are going to look at the Albanians with envy.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

9. Or credit markets will become inaccessible to the poor.

[joshcryer]

15. If Grexit happens...

...there's no way to know how it will fare long term. But it will be utterly painful short term.

The question is whether the short term pain will further anti-cronyism and anti-corruption in the long term. Since the wealthy people moved their billions out of Greece before this happened, the pain will come to the working poor initially.

[Ken Burch]

20. Short-term pain(and we both know it can't just be short-term in this case)

from Merkel's arrogant and heartless demands can't fuel anti-corruption and anti-cronyism movements.

No country anywhere on the planet, at any time in history, has ever been starved into clean government. And the EU, which is a cesspool of corruption, is not morally entitled to judge the Greek people.

The only people who are going to suffer are people who are blameless.

[joshcryer]

22. Yes, but you can't predict how it would wind up.

Half of EU isn't as corrupt as the other half. You have Italy which is as corrupt as Greece but you have Denmark or Finland which are paragons of anti-corruption in the world.

[Recursion]

23. What's "winning" here?

Greece is going to be a lot poorer for the next several decades no matter what happens.

[JustAnotherGen]

25. ITA with you on this

[Adrahil]

29. YES! so many people are missing this. There is no happy ending in the short term. nt

[herding cats]

42. As always, it's the poorest population who will suffer the most.

I realize things are bad now, really bad. What the poor in Greece are about to experience will be even worse. Many won't live long enough to see things ever regain a semblance of normalcy again.

There's no winning on the agenda for the poor in Greece. Which is a demographic which is about to grow even larger. There's just bad and worse choices being made while they watch people playing politics with their lives. It's a terrible situation with no easy fix at this point.

[Adrahil]

28. What do you consider a "win"

A lot of people I'm hearing form on this seem to think this means austerity is over. How does that work? The Greek government is BUSTED. And even if they start printing Drachmas today, this will mean months, perhaps years of misery. There is no good solution. No matter what happens, ordinary Greeks are in for very rough, and austere, times.

Do you simply mean a restructuring of the debt so the people of Greece actually have a fair shot at re-building their economy?

[2naSalit]

30. I plan to see what

Greek products I can afford to buy and have shipped to the US. I don't have a lot of money to spare but would gladly show my support for their wise, though painful, choice. I think the Euro was a big mistake and that many were deceived into joining in this ill-conceived venture.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

31. "If Greece wins, working people EVERYWHERE win."

Play stupid games. Win stupid prizes.

[closeupready]

36. Anyone here ever read Luigi Barzini's "The Italians"?

It's not a perfect analogy, and it's an old book, but in that region, nobody seems to just 'take it' when the economy goes south. When they get lemons, they make lemonade, and not in a good way.

[hifiguy]

39. Shit, the Germans should just revert to form

(and I am 80% German so don't go there) and send in the troops, liquidate the old and sick (notorious parasite classes both), seize the country and work the Greeks to death for slave wages while pocketing the profits and starving them in the process. That'll show the lazy bastards.

And be sure to bring back the Greek oligarchs to live like emperors in the process. They can hire some body servants from among the populace for a dollar a day and give the proles role models to aspire to.

I cannot believe some of the neo-fascist shit I am reading on what is supposedly a liberal board.