Polygamy Is An Attempt to Legalize Rape. Comparing It To Marriage Is Sexist and Homophobic.

[msanthrope]

You've read all the threads, and it is amazingly simple.

Marriage is based on consent. Polygamy is not. In polygamy, women are not allowed to veto sexual relations. They aren't allowed to demand monogamy. They have no control to condition sex--i.e., "I will not have sex with you if you sleep with other people." They have no recourse to prevent subsequent marriages. At bottom, they have no control over their sexual lives---they serve a master. They don't control their reproductive freedom, and they can't leave without suffering enormous consequence. They have no true consent to how their lives are lived.

Sure, we've all read the anecdotes of those who defend this arrangement-- sex without complete female consent. They all know the perfect polyamorous relationship where everyone gets along, there's no leader, and everyone is having a good time. It sounds just peachy.

But the true face of polygamy isn't these poly relationships where people are free to leave. The true face of polygamy is the thousands of women and children who live in insular communities and have no access to resources that would allow them to leave. The true face of polygamy is women who aren't allowed to cut their hair, or who are expected to cover their face, or who have absolutely no control over who they share their lives and sexual partner with. Polygamy is the worst sexism, because it preaches the message that women are truly fungible, and their consent is not necessary.

It is disgusting, and an homophobic insult to the memory of John Arthur to compare wanting to marry your partner, your equal, to polygamy. It is a disgusting insult to every single Plaintiff who had the courage to sign their name to lawsuits demanding equal protection under law. To suggest that marriage between two consenting adults has anything to do with the repressive harem-keeping that is the norm in polygamy is repulsive.

Equal protection under law isn't possible where only one party gets to say no. And when only one party has the power to say no, there is no true consent to sex. And that's rape. I think that's indefensible.....and every single thread on this matter has proved me correct. There is no defense to polygamy. Not one.

[eShirl]

1. Not all polygamy fits into your narrow box.

Sorry.

[msanthrope]

3. Except my "narrow box" describes the majority of polygamist communities in North America. nt

[eShirl]

10. Do I detect a mobile goal post?

[msanthrope]

13. I have no idea what you detect. nt

[eShirl]

14. !

[canuckledragger]

48. The poster very clearly described various forms of polygamy.

I think you detect whatever YOU want to detect, for the purpose of starting arguments.

[eShirl]

106. ?

And what argument did I start?

[canuckledragger]

110. Pretending ignorance now?

The one you purposely started with your very first post...THE first post of the entire thread!

[oberliner]

12. The majority of polygamist communities in North America are among Muslims

Estimates range from 50,000 to 100,000 people.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90857818

[msanthrope]

24. There's estimated to be about 100k Christian/Mormon based in Utah

and Colorado alone.


http://www.apologeticsindex.org/609-polygamy-documentary


I think any religious basis for polygamy is laughable in the modern world. Your NPR story contains a lot of stories about women with limited choices and consent. Thanks for posting it.

[oberliner]

33. Mormons do not engage in polygamy

It is illegal and grounds for being dismissed from the church.

Only splinter groups that co-opt the name like Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and the Apostolic United Brethren still practice polygamy, and their numbers are very small.

[msanthrope]

40. Well, I don't do the "One True Scotsman." Religions tend be self-identifying....

who are you and I to judge who is truly a Scotsman, and who is not?

[Katashi_itto]

17. So your admitting that "majority" is not all? If so how do you know its a

majority?

[msanthrope]

27. I'm not understanding your point. Can you explain it? nt

[snooper2]

64. So how do you categorize a threesome?

How about one that lasts for years?

[msanthrope]

82. a threesome that lasts for years?

you know you walked right into that......

seriously I don't particularly care about the private sexual relationships people have what I care about is an institutionalized patriarchy where women are not free to consent or leave

[snooper2]

84. So you think if a polywhatever is given same respect as marriage

The women will be trapped?

Probably would make it easier..."hey, you distract him I'm grabbing the keys".


If one woman is with multiple men does that make it worse or better in your mind than one man with multiple women, "institutionalized" using your words.

[msanthrope]

93. I think you're conflating institutionalised patriarchy with private sexual acts

and relationships.


I don't particularly care how people live as long as it doesn't involve minors. polygamy as it is commonly practiced here in North America is institutionalized oppression of women and children. those women and children are not free to leave and form their own relationships of their own making.it's actually pretty simple if you don't have the power to veto or leave then you don't really have the power to consent. the relationships I'm primarily concerned with are ones where the women do not have the power to consent.

[Man from Pickens]

128. Reminds me of the old adage as to why you shouldn't marry more than one wife

two will gang up on you

Anyway, these anti-polygamy threads are hilarious - it's like a deliberate recycling of all the anti-gay-marriage arguments, wrapped in the same package of bigotry, ignorance, and provincialism.

[Katashi_itto]

2. Let me get this straight. Your taking what happens in cults and just applying it to all Polys?

You really don't get out much do you?

[msanthrope]

6. I am sure, as my OP mentioned, you have a specific, anecdotal poly relationship

in mind that has nothing to do with the thousands of women and children living in insular communities across North America.

[Katashi_itto]

8. Right...again your applying what happens to cults and applying it to all Polys?

[msanthrope]

15. Are you calling Muslims a "cult?" (see post #12.) nt

[Katashi_itto]

20. No you are. I never mentioned Muslims. Your the one saying they are all rapists.

[msanthrope]

28. I did not write the post you are referring to. nt

[Katashi_itto]

29. Some Muslims are poly. You state all Polys are Rapists.

According to you All Poly Muslims are Rapists.

[msanthrope]

31. The women involved in polygamy are rapists? How so?

Or are you just simply forgetting the women in your logic exercise?

[Bluenorthwest]

35. The women in religious polygamy are monogamous, it's the men who are 'poly'.

They keep 3 monogamous people to serve each 'Poly born' man.

[msanthrope]

42. That is correct. Thank you for pointing that out. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

54. I'll also point out that for men who are gay in Poly countries the punishments are so great that

their own 'consent' to marriage is a product of coercion as well. 'Marry her or die' is not an atmosphere in which consent is involved at all.

[msanthrope]

99. I think that issue deserves an op of its own...

some males in polygamous society do very well for themselves and others are abandoned, coerced or killed. honor killing doesn't just involve women it also involves men who do not conform to the patriarchal structure.

[snooper2]

70. Are these two men getting raped? Should we call social services?

Polyamory: 1 Mom, 2 Dads and a Baby

[KittyWampus]

72. you confuse an act amongst three people with a societal institution.

[tymorial]

81. Bingo

The EXACT same argument used by same sex marriage opponents. PURE hypocrisy.

[Mojorabbit]

86. +1000 nt

[Bluenorthwest]

34. Interesting contention you have that the most autocratic and sexually repressive countries are

countries of 'Polys' who are in the same community as glorious US 'Polys' fighting for the same rights. This means the US 'Poly Community' is in support of countries which punish often severely any sexuality that is not heterosexual either with one wife or plural wives. As a community, a people, they are not good neighbors to others who do not conform to the Poly Culture in those nations.
How can a community have pride when the nations that most define that community jail all the bisexuals, kill the gays, punish any woman who has sex outside the Poly paradigm in which he husband has other partners but she must not, under force of law.

If they are a community, then they are a community of poor ethics, a community that has the selfish nerve to claim to represent sexual liberation while running nations that are sexually repressive beyond all imagining.

All Poly countries have anti gay laws, 10 of them have the death penalty for homosexuality. They whip women who get out of line.
Consent simply fills the air in these straight Poly Paradisios, does it not? Jail for those who don't conform, that's consent! The lash hanging over your head, consent!!!!

[JI7]

125. those are Muslim countries which allow men to marry multiple women but 2 consensual men could not

just not marry each other but would be punished for even just being caught together.

why is that ?

[Lizzie Poppet]

91. Islam is a cult. So is Christianity.

They're both ancient Middle Eastern personality cults, by the strict definition of the term: "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object."

[hobbit709]

4. What a crock of metabolic byproducts.

And just how many "traditional" marriages do the same to women?
Just look at the Duggars for starters.

[msanthrope]

7. The Duggars are a family based on female consent and reproductive control?

Have you watched that show?

You would call them "traditional?" Whose tradition?

[Katashi_itto]

9. Are the Duggars Poly?

[msanthrope]

16. I have no idea what the Duggars are. But they were used as an example of "traditional" marriage.

I just gotta know......whose tradition are they?

[Katashi_itto]

22. So you cant even figure out what the Duggars and we are suppose to think your credible?

[msanthrope]

25. I wasn't the one who brought up the Duggars. You seem upset. nt

[hobbit709]

23. You obviously are sarchasm challenged.

I was using your points about how women are treated in a Warren Jeffs polygamy and comparing it how the Duggar setup treats women the same way.
But your mind is made up so there's no use trying to bring up a discussion.

You think all polygamous marriages are like the one you describe, therefore you will not even entertain the notion that some of them might not be.
I was using "traditional" in the way the thumpers use it.

I have seen several multiple partner families in my years, most of them seemed more stable and loving than many of the 1 couple ones I've seen.
What kind of relationship CONSENTING adults want to have does not bother me at all. It seems to bother you a great deal for some reason.

[Bluenorthwest]

43. I ask you, why don't the people in 'multi partner families' speak out against the vile repression of

others in the nations that practice polygamy and instead at least on DU they present themselves as part of a sexually liberated paradigm, happy to clutch onto the political progress of LGBT people even as the Poly Global Culture is highly abusive to LGBT people, the Poly Nations are all anti gay, 10 have the death penalty for homosexuality, and yet on DU people who claim to speak for the Poly Community, even in this thread, claim US Poly Culture is tied to that in the Muslim world. It's in this thread.
So if they are a global 'Poly People' they are a people that repress others extensively for not conforming to their legally dictated paradigm. If they stand with the Poly Countries, they stand with lashes for sex outside of marriage, prison for being gay or bisexual, even death.

If they are a world culture, they are hugely negligent people who clearly do not care about LGBT or any other sort of person who is not just like they are.
Don't tell me you are sexually liberated if your culture on this planet punishes gay people.

The relationships of consenting adults are legal in the US and are in fact illegal in every last country that practices 'Poly' marriages. Every single one of those countries punishes homosexuality and gay people severely. So it is fairly shitty to rant about consenting adult freedom when Poly Culture is so very punitive toward all sexuality other than heterosexual poly marriage or mono marriage. 'Be Poly Straight or Die'.
Fuck that. I do not consent to Religious Rule. May you straight people get what you straight people have delivered to others for endless generations in the name of your own families and Gods.
Barf.

[TM99]

55. Please stop conflating

the very small minority Poly subculture in the US with other repressive cultures that practice polygamy.

They are not the same. Saudi Arabia is NOT my culture just because I would like to see polygamy (polyamourous marriages) legalized in the US.

Also please stop conflating religious polygamy with what we are talking about. Religion has nothing to do with it even if some new religious movements are more supportive than the general culture. Hell neo-pagans have been staunch LGBT allies for decades as well. None of us are proposing religious rule. So please drop that straw man as well.

And the last mistake you keep making is the idea that because these cultures are as they are with regards to homosexuality that somehow the poly community here in the US is all straight. Nope, sorry, wrong. There are straights AND LGBT individuals involved in poly relationships. No not all want to be married. And yes, some do.

[Bluenorthwest]

60. So Poly is a People except when they are not?

You want people to ignore the facts on the ground, the facts of history, the reality of the fact that every Poly Country is wildly punitive to all who do not conform to their own paradigm. There are no countries which are 'Poly' that are liberated sexually, with free women and LGBT. None. Not one.
Polyamory is fully legal in the US. It is fully illegal in all Polygamist countries.
It is intellectually dishonest to wave away all reality based concerns. Poly Countries execute LGBT people. All of them punish us. So your 'trust us we are not like that' needs proof.
Why is it that none of you passionate Poly people ever bothered to mention your plight prior to the SCOTUS decision? That's very odd to me. It's sudden. It's also ironic considering the bulk of Polygamist culture on Earth and in the US is decidedly anti gay. It just is, entire nations with the lash, that can not be denied by any one who is honest in the slightest.
Oppose us, kill us, but still exploit our political skills? Not a nice community of people.
So do you intend to seek rights to plural marriages only for some people? Because if you allow them to religious communities they will raise their own to marry. And those communities, which are the majority of US 'Polys' are all stridently anti gay and anti choice, and of course only their men are 'Poly' in sexual terms, the women are just monogamous married women, they are denied all other sexuality. You either are that or you are not that.
Not sure how you can both advocate for their rights and say you don't like what they do

[TM99]

65. Blue you are impossible to communicate with.

You have a set agenda, twist words, change definitions to suit your own meanings, and refuse to listen.

Poly is that innate aspect of ourselves that is about how we wish to be in sexual relationships. Monogamous is inherent even though infidelity exists. Polygamous is inherent even though infidelity still exists. Can you not understand that?

I am done trying to educate you on the differences between polyamorous subculture in the US versus repressive cultures that practice polygamy. You are just wilfully ignoring the differences.

The types of marriage we would seek would by law be consensual, non-abusive, etc. Religious cults could of course abuse that. I mean assholes abuse each other in marriages all the time. I see it day in and day out. And as a gay person, welcome to the reality of marriage. Not all that do get married should be married. Not all that are married are living in consensual, abuse-free, enlightened bliss.

I would deny marriage to no one. However, such groups as the fringe Mormon cults would still be doing illegal acts. Incest is NOT legal. It is sexual abuse. It is a criminal act if it is forced. Hell monogamous straight marriage hardly stopped the Duggars from their issues being expressed.

Do you advocate for domestic violence in gay marriage? It occurs. So therefore by your logic, if you advocate for gay marriage then you also advocate for domestic abuse. That twisted logic is why it is fucking frustrating to try and converse with you.

Why didn't we speak out? Well one reason is that poly communities are more in the minority than even LGBT's are to straights. Poly communities are not very large or in contact with each other. Many areas of the nation treat polyamorous relationships no differently than they do monogamous gay relationships. The right wing has used extremes of polygamy and other ludicrous straw men like marrying appliances and pets so as is evidenced already, why put it out there when even allies on the left are just going to scream at you for being right wing, sexist, homophobic, blah blah blah.

If I demanded of you the same kind of defense of your sexual expression as you are demanding of me and others who support polyamorous relationships, you would be screaming your head off about the bigotry and homophobia. You would be right. Trust me, I almost regret speaking out. The 'liberals' here are as pigheaded, ignorant, bigoted, and stupid as the 'conservatives' they have been fighting with on LGBT marriage rights for decades.

[Bluenorthwest]

69. You preach and sermonize and demand and yet you refuse to discuss what I say.

This tells me all I need to know about your views in terms of equality among persons. You refuse to discuss even a single point, constantly characterize, call names, accuse and rant. But you simply will not discuss any point of fact. You want to bully me and I won't be bullied.
There is not a shred of respect or equality in any of your posts. You put words in my mouth and then argue with those word because you are incapable of speaking to what I have actually said.
I'm a human being. Speak to me that way. That requires listening. Discussing. This sermonizing crap is just mean.

[TM99]

73. Project much?!

Jesus. I am not the one who is bullying or name calling.

You are conflating things that are not equal. You are creating straw man arguments that are not what is being discussed.

You are the one who is not listening. You are the one who is preaching on and fucking on about repressive regimes as being the same as polyamorous/polygamous relationships here and now in the US.

Treat me with some fucking respect, and you will get it in return. I have literally done nothing to warrant your constant belittling and insults.

If you can't communicate with me or don't like that I push back hard against your bullshit then go away. Stop trying to converse with me. Put me on Ignore and be done with it.

[msanthrope]

85. blue isn't impossible to communicate with on

this subject. He's just correct.

[TM99]

90. Your input is neither requested

or required.

He is not correct. And neither are you.

[2naSalit]

95. DING DING DING!!!

And we have a self-proclaimed foremost authority on what other people are saying and what they mean!!!

Wee! Isn't blogging fun!?!

[msanthrope]

97. you do realize this is my thread? nt

[bravenak]

111. Exactly. He is spot on.

[DetlefK]

5. So... the scene in the movie "Bandits"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0219965/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_44

...where the female protagonist is in love with both male protagonists (and they are best friends and they both love her) and she just can't decide and they move to a tiny foreign island where it's legal for her to have two husbands...

That is rape?


Or "Savages" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1615065/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 where a woman is in a stable, committed relationship with two guys and without emotional troubles... that is rape?

[msanthrope]

11. I think works of fiction are stories---and you don't base government on them---

[PoliticAverse]

18. I was missing the unrec but then I decided recing this so more people see it was even better. nt

[oberliner]

19. Monogamy has been pretty terrible for women for centuries

The idea that you think monogamy is about "wanting to marry your partner, your equal" is naive and insulting and belies the historical record (and current practice among many today).

There are monogamy relationships that embody all of the horrors you've described about polygamist ones.

[KittyWampus]

76. Stop confusing patriarchy with monogamy. You keep doing it.

[Le Taz Hot]

21. Speaking as a rape victim.

You have NO IDEA what rape is and you've got a lot of nerve comparing what two or more CONSENTING ADULTS decide to do with their lives to rape.

Goddess, I miss the Unrec button! This is the lowest of the low, even for you.

[msanthrope]

38. From my OP, since you seemed to miss it.....

Sure, we've all read the anecdotes of those who defend this arrangement-- sex without complete female consent. They all know the perfect polyamorous relationship where everyone gets along, there's no leader, and everyone is having a good time. It sounds just peachy.

But the true face of polygamy isn't these poly relationships where people are free to leave. The true face of polygamy is the thousands of women and children who live in insular communities and have no access to resources that would allow them to leave. The true face of polygamy is women who aren't allowed to cut their hair, or who are expected to cover their face, or who have absolutely no control over who they share their lives and sexual partner with. Polygamy is the worst sexism, because it preaches the message that women are truly fungible, and their consent is not necessary.

Oberliner posted an interesting story in post #12. Doesn't sound like many of those women are free to leave.

[Le Taz Hot]

41. I read the whole thing.

Then after having to shower after reading that shit, I answered you.

So, after you repeating your repulsive OP over and over and over again, not just in this thread, which you started, but MULTIPLE threads, yeah, we get it. You don't like polygamy and since YOU don't like it NO ONE ELSE should be able to decide for themselves what you have deemed is unacceptable to you. You sound EXACTLY like the anti-choice bigots. And you, sir, ARE a bigot.

And one more thing, unless you've been raped you have NO RIGHT to talk with ANY authority about the subject. You should be tombstoned for this. But you won't be and we all know why.

[msanthrope]

44. Um, I haven't particpated in multiple threads on this subject. I think you mistake me for someone

else...especially since you have my gender incorrect, although it is there in my username.....


Having also survived sexual violence, I hope you are currently safe and well.

[laundry_queen]

26. Gee, I can't imagine how those communities became insular in the first place. nt

[TM99]

30. Polygamy is illegal.

Those who practice it do so under religious umbrellas as you describe, however, there are polyamorous relationships that do become long-term committed relationships between multiple partners.

These relationships are not based on rape. There are not incestuous. They are not based on religious beliefs. They are consensual adult relationships and they have no more or less problems in them than your average straight or gay marriage.

Sure, we've all read the anecdotes of those who defend this arrangement-- sex without complete female consent. They all know the perfect polyamorous relationship where everyone gets along, there's no leader, and everyone is having a good time. It sounds just peachy.

Only a fucked up bigot who doesn't know at all what they are speaking about and conflates one thing with another would make such a statement. You call it anecdotal and yet any and all attempts to provide links and information on the numbers of polyamorous relationships in the US and what they are about is simply dismissed out of hand as somehow being homophobic, right-wing, anti-feminist, etc.

The type of polygamy that some hope to seek out after this landmark ruling does not fit your imagination apparently. We want it based on true consent, true choice, and providing financial and legal protections that all marriages do be it for the partners or the children of such partnerships. I agree that it is going to redefine marriage even more in this culture. I agree that it may get very complicated as it will be more than one contract in place.

Really this is just another version of pearl clutching, bigotry, and shaming of adults who don't act like you want them to do so, who don't believe what you want them to believe, and who have and will continue to pursue this without your blessing.

There has not been one single thread on this topic that has condoned rape, non-consensual relationships, abuse, or any of the myriad other red herrings on that which is actually being described. This is not Saudi Arabia. I have personally counseled teenagers from some of the worst northern Arizona Mormon cults. I know what you are describing is very real, but that is not what others here are discussing or wanting to put into place.

Why are such intelligent people (and mean after all you presumably finished law school since you claim to be lawyer) unable to understand that?

[hobbit709]

32. More like unwilling than unable.

[Bluenorthwest]

46. Then the US Poly Culture needs to distance itself from and join the LGBT community in opposing

the horrific sexual repression which is aimed at anyone who is outside the paradigm in each and every Poly Nation. They need to make it clear that they are not interested in punitive actions toward those who will not submit to their ways. But what I see over and over again is the presentation of 'Poly' as a birth identity, a global people encompassing all Poly forms.
Can't have it both ways. If a culture punishes homosexuality, it is not a polyamorous culture. It is not a sexually liberated culture. If you whip your bisexuals for bisexuality, your culture as it is practiced is not at all about pansexuality, it's the opposite. If you punish anyone for their sexuality, don't try to present that culture as oriented toward freedom and consent.
Every country that is 'Poly' is also punitive toward all who do not conform. This is an issue that anyone wanting to claim association with a Poly culture. If they are The Poly People, they need to stop being such autocratic anti gay shits, as a people.
Poly People run many countries, all of those countries are anti gay and 10 execute gay people.

So the actual practice is not something you can ignore while also claiming all Poly People are born that way. If that's how they are born, with lash in hand for LGBT people, then fuck them. If they refuse to speak out to their Poly brothers and sisters to halt the horrors, then fuck them.

[TM99]

49. I have zero problem with what you are saying here.

I having training as a clinical sexologist. All expressions of sexuality from gender to sexual partners to choice of monogamous versus polygamous relationships I have seen to be innate, inherent, inborn, however you want to describe it.

As I said in another thread, the poly community is made up of LGBT individuals AND straights. We have supported LGBT rights for some time even if our methods or advocacy are not bold enough for some on these boards.

I reject any culture that codifies sexual repression. I reject any form of polygamy that is oppressive, abusive, and/or non-consensual. You are absolutely right. If a culture punishes homosexuality, it is definitely not a polyamorous culture. Marriage in these cultures is not about free will, consenting expressions of love and sexuality, or civil rights. That is why I and others get so pissed when some continue to conflate what we are discussing and what places like Saudi Arabia are actually like. Do y'all really think we want to create the Medieval culture in existence over there, here?

These cultures that are so repressive are so in a myriad of ways not just with regards to sexual expression. There is no religious freedom. There is no free speech. There is no gender equality. The US has lots of problems. There is ample bigotry, racism, and just narcissistic rage in abundance. However, we are creeping slowing forwards.

[Bluenorthwest]

58. And yet DU and this very thread is full of folks claiming that religious Poly countries are part of

the same global Poly culture as anyone else who is Poly. If they are claiming to be a global culture of people, they hold responsibility for what their culture is doing to everyone else when their culture is in power. If they are not claiming to be 'a People' then they need to organize and make it clear that they are not in support of horrific repressions of all who are not Poly straights. They can not have it both ways. You can't be both 'liberated polymorous people' and also the Polygamists who punish homosexuality.
Some on DU are promoting polygamy as practiced globally and they are exploiting LGBT progress and issues to advance their rhetoric in spite of the fact that all the polygamist nations are punitive to LGBT people.
And I don't see anyone saying clearly that Poly People object to what Poly countries do to those who are not heterosexual polys.
There are no nations run by LGBT. There are many run by 'Polys'. All of them are very repressive to any and all sexuality that does not conform to their demands. If 'Polys' are a community, they need to do something about what their community does to others when given power.
Right now, you are saying 'give us rights' and I say in places where you rule, my people are murdered by your people for force conformity and create consent. Not good people, I don't want to empower those who are going to punish others. Polys in power, in every nation in which they are in power, oppress and punish gay people.
They either are or are not a community. If they are, they suck for being so homophobic and misogynist. Poly Nations punish any woman who has any sex aside from her ONE husband. She's not poly, he is. Poly Nations have only Poly Males, for the women are not allowed poly anything.
All of that is in the baggage, and it can not be ignored by decent people. Only creeps would side with those who lop the heads off gay people. The end.

[TM99]

59. Sometimes you make little sense.

This is one of them.

My people? Your people? Poly's are straight AND LGBT's. Poly does not define who we fuck. It defines how we wish to be in committed and long-term relationships with those we fuck. Perhaps Polys and Mono's is a better way of describing the difference? Because

Show me one post that says currently repressive cultures that practice polygamy are the same poly culture as what exists in the US independent of religious extremism. I will wait.

There are no nations run by polys. There are repressive nations whose cultures practice polygamy. Can you not understand the difference?

I don't side with anyone who executes gay men and women. I don't see a single person advocating for polygamy here in the US who does. That is an incredibly gross and abhorrent straw man you are constructing here.

I can state out loud that I reject the culturally repressive Arabian cultures. But I don't have to defend that being a poly. No one should because THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING!

[Bluenorthwest]

63. When other posters say they are the same thing, as is done in this very thread, you do not object

If the Poly countries are not really Poly, you need to stop letting people use those countries in their rants about this. It's in this thread. And you sir, are silent about it.

The rights you are advocating would create many religious polygamist communities. So it is for them that you advocate, and they are all anti gay, anti pansexualism, anti bisexual, anti choice. They are the majority of the US Poly community, not the outlier but the norm, that's what it is.
You can't wave all of that away because it bugs you.

[TM99]

67. They didn't. They haven't.

You are just making shit up to suit your agenda.

Educate yourself. Learn from those sharing here. Then maybe a rational conversation can be had.

[oberliner]

36. "There are interesting arguments to be made for legalizing polygamy..."

There are interesting arguments to be made for legalizing polygamy, from protecting children from secretive non-consensual multiple-marriage situations to how being “feminist” actually means not protecting women from these marriages but letting them choose for themselves. All compelling points. But the truth is, I don’t really care.

I won’t be entering a polygamous relationship anytime soon. I live in New York City, so I simply don’t have the space for more wives. And just like I don’t have the ass for jeggings, I don’t have the heart for non-monogamy.

But I do have a soft spot for allowing consenting adults to make their own decisions, and to be supported by their government in doing so, not constrained.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/12/is-polygamy-the-next-gay-marriage.html

Author is gay, not homophobic.

[msanthrope]

39. From the article you posted above, in 12, how many of those women were free to leave--truly

able to consent.

Didn't sound like many.

[HereSince1628]

37. Monogamy seems richly subsidized by voluntary extra-marital relationships

which lack social and legal protections for the extra-marital partners

If the argument turns on equal protection, I think the conversation must then begin with some broad consideration of who are the ones who are unequally protected.

[Recursion]

45. It's not that simple, even if you think of polygamy as inherently bad

Like the US, India is a normatively monogamous country with small populations that retain polygamy as part of their culture. Unlike the US, India legally recognizes some of them (Northern Muslims) while not legally recognizing others (Eastern Hindus and the rather odd case of polyandrous Keralan women).

There's a growing feeling among NGOs that the recognition isn't entirely a bad thing (even though they would all prefer polygamy to simply stop) because the subsequent wives at least receive some legal protection in the Muslim communities whereas they receive none in the Hindu communities (the Keralan thing also has problems, notably male infanticide).

If you go in with the sense that polygamy is a social ill (which I largely do), you can still conclude that having a legal framework is better than not having it.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

47. Hmmm..not seeing your outrage

If all of the partners willingly enter into the arrangement and are of legal age, it's their arrangement. You may find it disgusting; they don't. My interpretation of the court ruling is that marriage is marriage. Those wishing to enter into the relationship may do so.

My reading of your post is that you feel no sane person would consent to such an arrangement because you find it repulsive. Not everyone sees life as you do.

[Calista241]

50. Agree. 100%

[ileus]

51. Is this one of those "all marriage except gay marriage" is rape posts???

[Kevin from WI]

52. I personally don't care if 5 men get married.

Or 5 women, or 3 men and 2 women, or any other combination of consenting adults.

I believe in marriage equality for all consenting adults in healthy loving relationships. Would you really stand in the way of love?

[alarimer]

53. Countries that allow polygamy are places like Saudi Arabia

Not good company, in my opinion. It is almost always one man and several women and not the other way around. It is not good for women and it is not good for young people, male or female. The women are effectively sold into the arrangement and the young men have no options with relationships at all. In the various Mormon offshoots, these young guys are effectively thrown away.

I cannot believe anyone is defending polygamy on this board.

Warren Jeffs and his polygamist cult pretty much is all I need to know.

Ploygamy in any form is a step backward in our evolution because it will almost certain be terrible for women.

But for some reason, otherwise progressive people on this board are not listening, because they have bought into the idea that allowing same sex marriage should allow all other types. When same-sex marriage is about equality between individuals. Same-sex marriage makes marriage MORE egalitarian, while allowing polygamy, makes it less egalitarian.

[TM99]

57. So in your mind

because Medievally repressive cultures are polygamous with regards to marriage that polygamy as the poly community here is discussing they must be the same thing?

You also seem to be under some mistake belief that only two people involved in a relationship are capable of being equals. That is ridiculous. Five people involved in a consensual & committed relationship can all be treating each other as equals. There is no magical number of individuals in relationship that insures equality.

You do know that rape, incest, domestic violence and other forms of gross inequality occur in straight and gay marriages? People are people.

[Bluenorthwest]

66. So how do you explain the fact that all poly countires are sexually repressive in the extreme to all

who do not conform to the heterosexual poly paradigm while countries without polygamy allow all sexual liberty? Polygamist countries punish all sexuality that is not conforming. Not some of them, all of them. The same thing is true in religious communities that have no country to run, they are all very repressive to all sexuality outside their own paradigm. They are anti gay. Anti pansexuality, bisexuality, they are against a woman having a second partner.
It is not happenstance that polygamist countries are repressive sexually while monogamist countries are far, far more liberated.

If that sort of culture was progressive, why have none of them progressed away from the lash and the axe for LGBT?

[TM99]

68. They are not poly countries.

No one has described these countries as progressive. This is a red herring and straw man rolled up into one disgusting little argument. I will dignify it no further.

[Bluenorthwest]

71. They are countires which practice Polygamy. This thread is about polygamy.

And all the countries that practice polygamy are anti gay, sexually repressive countries. That is a fact, if you can't cope with the facts that explains all your accusations and name calling.
If you can't figure out how to deal with the reality of the practice of polygamy as it is in the world while advocating your position, you will not get far with your position.
If there is some pro sexual freedom 'poly' community in the US, it is up to them to make sure others know they are not like the polygamists cultures and countries that are the majority of poly culture in the world. They can't avoid dealing with that. It's dishonest to do so.

[TM99]

75. We have.

If there is some pro sexual freedom 'poly' community in the US, it is up to them to make sure others know they are not like the polygamists cultures and countries that are the majority of poly culture in the world. They can't avoid dealing with that.

We have supported LGBT and racial civil rights for decades. We are no different than anyone else in that regard, and we do not need to be held to some ridiculous made up standard because you can not separate your ideas of polygamy over there with polyamory over here.

[99Forever]

56. Bullshit.

Just plain old, stinking bullshit.

[Man from Pickens]

61. Nice irony-trolling!

Can't let them dirty polysexumals be despoilin' the holy sacrament of gay marriage, durnit

Surprised that anyone on this thread thought you were serious, when you made it that obvious that you were recycling all the anti-gay-marriage arguments against a different demonized group.

[Bluenorthwest]

74. This thread is about polygamy. In countries with legal polygamy, polysexuality is forbidden and

punished harshly. To claim that criticism of polygamy is the same as criticism of polysexual people is ironic considering that 10 polygamist countries will execute the polysexual woman or bisexual man and all of the rest of are extremely punitive toward such people.

Polygamist countries execute pansexual people. That's a fact. I'm for the pansexuals, not the polygamists.

[Mojorabbit]

88. +1000 nt

[SidDithers]

62. DU rec for pissing off all the right people...nt

Sid

[HFRN]

77. so you're shutting down a discussion by throwing labels

is that it?

isn't that intellectually lazy?

[tymorial]

78. This entire comment is utterly preposterous.

I will say this, the argument here is certainly new. The anti polygamy crowd usually just rehash the same moral superiority arguments made by the anti-same sex crowd. I contend that if we were talking about women marrying multiple men, no one would be complaining. If we were talking about same sex polygamy, no one would be complaining. Therefore the _ONLY_ reason why people are complaining is because they automatically assume that all women in polygamous relationships are abused. Any relationship where one or more people are abused is wrong. This I believe we all can agree. To claim that all polygamy and polyamory in general is abusive is ridiculous and is based on nothing more than emotionalism and feelings on the subject. It stinks of white knighting.

[HassleCat]

79. Basically, yes

You are hearing many objections that go something like, "Not all of us are like that." OK, fine, but most polygamists have other stuff going on, and are really into exploiting women, sometimes girls. I want polygamy to remain illegal because the states can use their bigamy laws to go after some of these cult leaders. If polygamy becomes legal, their "wives" can refuse to testify against them, and the state has a much more difficult time going after them.

[The2ndWheel]

87. How is that different from your run of the mill marriage?

Can't a wife refuse to testify against her husband and make it more difficult for the state to go after them if they're doing something wrong? I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see why that wouldn't be the case already. How is polygamy special?

[yeoman6987]

80. I believe you will be disappointed in 10 years

[KG]

89. I lulz'ed

[prayin4rain]

92. The evidence that is currently available to us tends to show

that plural marriages, more often than not, are mired in male domination.

[LadyHawkAZ]

94. Also true of monogamous cult marriages

And more than a few mainstream religious marriages as well. They're allowed, though.

[Glitterati]

96. Brilliant strategy! Using the right's arguments against Gays!

Jeez, I think I made a wrong turn and somehow ended up on one of those fanatical religious sites!

[tavalon]

98. Where does polyamory fit in your little box?

I've lived happily in quads, triads and even one five person marriage, short lived though it was. I've spent more time in multipartner non monogamous groupings than I did in my short foray into monogamy.

[riderinthestorm]

100. I can't speak to msanthrope but personally I have zero problem with polyamory

Polygamy however is institutionalized patriarchy and has real and demonstrable examples of the detriment to women and children.

It also removes consent from women.

I care deeply about women's rights - there needs to be a legal framework that empowers women in these types of marriages and I don't see our culture resolving those issues.

Consensual polyamory is a different legal animal than polygamy. And women's rights within those two structures are very different.

[msanthrope]

102. it's unfortunate that women in polygamous marriages don't have the same freedom you describe.

you're fortunate that you've been able to express yourself sexually and freely. women living in the insular communities that I described simply do not have those options.

[tavalon]

124. Then make it clear that you are distinguishing between various forms of polygamy and polyamory

If you don't know the difference then please educate yourself.

[msanthrope]

129. My OP is extremely clear. I am sorry it was not for you. nt

[LittleBlue]

101. Your sweeping condemnation is no different than Trump's

Since you provide no statistics to back up your claim, you've just branded millions of overwhelmingly brown people rapists with no proof.

Xenophobic fear mongering isn't progressive. You can disagree with polygamy without concocting a bizarre rape claim.

[msanthrope]

103. geez I knew I was having a bad hair day.....

But do you really have to go and insult me like that?

I'm intrigued this idea that women and men should have equal protection under the law makes me a racist....can you tell me the constitutional right that men have to have multiple wives?

[LittleBlue]

104. You've presented no proof that polygamous arrangements inherently grant fewer legal

rights than monogamous relationships.

You are surely aware that spousal rape occurs in countries which prohibit polygamy.

can you tell me the constitutional right that men have to have multiple wives?

Someone accused you of moving the goal posts early in this thread. I think you're doing it again. Make an inflammatory, indefensible claim, then move the discussion away from it.

[msanthrope]

105. Right.....because the insular communities I've described are

awash with women taking multiple husbands. the countries where polygamy is legal also have sizable percentages of women taking multiple men as husbands.

and the countries where polygamy is legal and communities where polygamy is prevalent also have sizable percentages of same-sex marriage.....

Right.....

[LittleBlue]

107. Relevance to your dubious rape claim?

If you're running away from that claim, update the OP so we're not wasting our time discrediting it.

[msanthrope]

108. I appreciate you backing down on your racism claim.....

since it's not racist to note that men and women do not have the same rights and privilegesunder polygamy no matter if it is legal or illegal.....

[LittleBlue]

109. I'm not backing away from my xenophobia claim

since it's not racist to note that men and women do not have the same rights and privilegesunder polygamy no matter if it is legal or illegal.....

No proof and still no attempt to defend your baseless rape claim. How is a blanket rape claim any more credible than Trump's?

[msanthrope]

122. Well....now it's xenophobia? Because I think Americans should not practice

polygamy?

[snooper2]

117. can I bring up threesomes that share an apartment again

please

[bravenak]

112. Here in the USA most polygamy is religious based.

And it is very dangerous for women and children. It seems people forgot about Warren Jeffs. Most poly families here are similar to that fdls bullshit. Only rarely is polygamy not religious based in the USA. Why should we accomodate those old ass men who wanna marry their young nubile nieces and second or third cousins? Or purchase a child bride from a guy from church? Why should we rewrite our laws so they can rape our girls? Bullshit. It's bullshit.

If poly folks wanna come out the closet and show the world that they should be accomodated, they can do what black people did and what lgbt did. March. Fight. Sue. Prove themselves a workable part of our society, but no damn piggybacking on others accomplishments. They can do their own work.

[TM99]

116. More narcissism I see.

If poly folks wanna come out the closet and show the world that they should be accomodated, they can do what black people did and what lgbt did. March. Fight. Sue. Prove themselves a workable part of our society, but no damn piggybacking on others accomplishments. They can do their own work.

MLK was inspired by Gandhi. Milk was inspired by MLK. We all 'piggyback' off of others accomplishments. If everyone has to do their own damned work, why should we expect whites to face and deal with racism? Why should straights have helped gays get marriage rights and then now civil rights protections. Hell, we POC marched for the Civil Rights Act. Screw the gays today. They don't get to piggyback off my parents work back in the 1960's so that they can get equal protection at work. As a man, hell I work hard for my money. Why should I give a shit if a woman of equal training gets less money than me for the same job. I got mine.

All of that sounds ludicrous because it is. This isn't about selfishness or I got mine, go get yours. Progressives who fight for civil rights for minorities of all types do so because it is right and just.

There have been links that talk directly about the differences between what y'all fear and what is actual polyamory here today in the west.

Buying a child bride is illegal. It would still be illegal if polygamous marriage rights were granted. Rape is crime now. It would still be a crime if polygamous marriage rights were granted.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026951707

This link has one rec and two replies. Obviously not many people want to get educated on the differences. It is hard to do 'our own work' when everyone arrogantly assumes they know what we are talking about, conflates it with repressive cultures & illegal religious cults, and have no real desire to be educated on the differences.

[bravenak]

119. Gandhi did his own work. MLK did his and died for it.

Why can't poly people do what needs to be done? Why should we rewrite the laws for them? Child custody, inheritance, those laws have been in place for a long time.
It's not selfish to say, I WORKED for mine, I've suffered for mine, I'm still struggling for mine, NO PIGGY BACK RIDES! Get yo ass in the street and do the damn thang. Why do you need to ride in on black civil rights and gay rights to get what you want?

Sounds like poly folks don't have the resilience to do the work to get recognition. They want it easy. They don't want to fight and die for acceptacne, gay folks did the fighting and dying and marching and crying, the coming outs, the banishments, suffered loss, no help for aids, beatings, harsh treatment, etc. Your turn to change minds and hearts. No piggy back rides, lgbt and blacks already have enough burdens to bear without carrying poly people on their backs.

[TM99]

120. I normally like what you have to say

on other topics in other threads.

But after this reply I am putting you on Ignore.

Take your hateful bigotry elsewhere. Poly folks are black, whites, straights, gays, bisexuals, transgenders, etc. We have been a part of advocacy for decades.

This is why social justice today is a failure. Post New Left beliefs and speech are self-centered, antagonistic, and divisive. As long as I got mine, fuck everyone else.

[riderinthestorm]

121. You can't/won't even post any advocacy work you've done, let alone poly "groups"!

You can't/won't even link any DU posts where you've advocated for LGBT or AA rights!

You've been specifically asked several times to demonstrate this activism and yet you don't.

Really. It's all just Internet bloviating.

[bravenak]

132. Take my bigotry elsewhere. That sounds stupid as fuck.

If thats all you are going to do in the battle for the freedom to marry a bunch of folks, you'll never win.
You can ignore me all you want, you will be getting similar answers all over the place and will have to ignore a whole bunch of people.

I have never seen you advocate for this before and believe you adbocacy to be disingenuous. Brand new. And I call bullshit that poly folks have been doing crap for civil rights for black people. Prove it. Let us have links to this advocacy or your own work for poly rights. You won't cause it don't exist.

Put me on ignore. Most times tha happens it's because I don't do bullshitting and fakery.

[Kurska]

127. Completely disagree with you.

Sexual freedom and liberty is only something you "have to work for" because bigoted busy bodies always shove their nose in other people's business. We ought to all be fighting for sexual liberties and the right to free association of consenting adults. It is all tied to a greater issue of sexual liberation.

Sorry, but it sounds harshly similar to the stuff a lot of people used to say about the gay rights movement that it was "copying and piggybacking off the black civil rights movement. That kind of logic was wrong then and it was wrong now.

[bravenak]

131. They can have fun with polyamory all they want.

But if they want laws changed to accomodate their lifestyle and the right to marry a whole bunch of people at the same time, they need to convince the rest of us that we won't have a whole bunch of fdls compounds.
I have never had anything handed to me based off of the work someone else did. The world is harsh.

[Veruca Salt]

130. Thank you, bravenak

You always tell it like it is.

[bravenak]

133. I try!

[surrealAmerican]

113. so, how do you feel about polyandry?

... does that not involve consent either?

[Recursion]

114. It's practiced in Kerala and is associated with male infanticide

As well as male exclusion from the economy.

[bravenak]

115. Sounds horrible.

[riderinthestorm]

118. Yeah, this post will be conveniently ignored...

Too many anecdotes on DU right now of utopian "poly" relationships instead of actually examining real time examples of "poly" communities.

[msanthrope]

123. I meant to reply to you up thread but my text to speech app ate my post.....

legal protection of subsequent wives is a very important issue and I wonder though at the efficacy of giving them rights under marital status laws as opposed to pursuing equal protection claims for all women. it's a tough call because the fact is is that subsequent wives suffer while the long term struggle goes on.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

126. Foul, evil, bigotted nonsense. Shame on you.