No, polygamy isn't rape. THIS is rape.

[Le Taz Hot]

When someone you've known for 6 years, known his wife, babysat his kids comes to your door, you open it and invite him in because you have absolutely no reason not to. Tells you his motorcycle broke down, it's cold, and can he have a cup of coffee? "No problem, let me make a pot."

Having no idea he's been on a crank bender for 3 days (though he did look like he'd been rode hard and put away wet) you sit down and start talking with him and he says he's tired, could he lay down for a few minutes? "Sure!" you say and you go into the bedroom to start making up the bed when all of a sudden this person you've known for 6 years comes up behind you with a razor blade to your throat and says, "Lay down and take off your clothes." So you comply because you want to live. You're thinking, "I can live through a rape but if he starts cutting on me I'm done." He's 6'4 and easily 250 lbs., you're 5'0" and 97 lbs. You know damned well who is going to win that power struggle. So you comply. He does whatever his sick mind leads him to do. You start crying, it sets him off and the razor blade gets closer to your throat so you clam up.

At some point he comes out of his crack stupor for a second, realizes what he's done and starts crying. Wants you to hold him. Will you tell me you love me? "Sure," you say, "I love you." Will you kiss me? "Sure, I'll kiss you and this can just be between you and me. I won't tell anyone." You eventually get him up, out of the room but know you can't reach the door in time to get out. So you stay, chatting, when eventually he confesses that his motorcycle didn't really break down, its just up the street and will you drive him to it? "Sure" you say, just wanting to get the hell out of the door. When you open the door and start walking out the door, you start running. And running and running until you hit a neighbor's house and call the police.

The police show up, take your story and he is arrested the next day. Month after month goes by and FINALLY trial gets here, here pleads guilty and gets sentenced to 1 year in a drug rehab facility. Gets out and less than a year later does the same thing to another woman but this time he uses his fists. He beats her, rapes her, she has a broken jaw and cracked ribs. She was in the hospital for weeks.

He died in prison. And I left out the part where the wife calls you and asks you why you are doing this to her and her children. Please don't press charges. I also left out the part where he threatened my life IN FRONT OF THE JUDGE and he had to be shackled.

Now, I say all of that because there are some major assbites on this board comparing polygamy to rape. I just wanted to give you the semi-graphic details on what rape looks like. Polygamy isn't it.

P.S. No condolences, please. It was 40 years ago and I'm alive, well, and happy and he's rotting in a grave. But just know every time you post some bullshit comparing anything to rape, it triggers every rape victim on DU. So, JUST FUCKING STOP IT!

[Le Taz Hot]

4. How, well, expected.

I consider the source.

[Sheldon Cooper]

8. If you're trying to insult me somehow, I guess I'm not following.

I am also a rape victim, so I have every right to my opinion of the crime. If that's not a good enough "source" for you, then you need to step back and take a deep breath. I repeat: you, yourself, do not own the definition of rape. Any sex that is non-consensual is, in fact, rape.

So there, I guess.

[Le Taz Hot]

10. Ok, Sparky, I'll spell it out.

1) Point me to ANYWHERE I state the "I own the definition of rape."

2) My POINT (which was that whooshing sound you heard flying over your head) was that not all plolygamy is non-consensual which means that not all polygamy is rape. We're talking about polygamy that is between CONSENTING adults.

Now, if you didn't understand that, I have no solution for you.

[Sheldon Cooper]

12. Gee thanks, Hoss.

The fact is, Moe, that some polygamy is indeed rape. Your attempt, Clem, at defining it as only that which occurs through violence is pretty clear cut: nothing else could possibly be called rape, am I right, Stretch?

Now, as you are clearly worked up over the subject, I'm done with this. I leave you the last word, and also thanks for playing the Name Game. I had fun coming up with names that sorta match the whole 'Sparky' thing.

[thesquanderer]

26. Polygamy is not rape.

You said "some polygamy is indeed rape." By definition, that is simply false. Some polygamists are rapists. But the polygamy and the rape are two entirely different behaviors, and each can easily exist without the other.

On a related note, there is a long history of incidents of husbands forcing themselves on their wives. Monogamy vs polygamy is not the distinguishing characteristic as to whether or not it happens.

[eggplant]

56. Thank you.

Some polygamists are rapists. As are some cops. Christians. Women, even.

Rape is violence. Polygamy is a legal identity. The two have nothing to do with each other.

The argument being made that polygamy is rape sounds remarkably like the 90s "AIDS is punishment for gay people".

[cui bono]

129. Well said. Can't believe you had to explain that.

And can't believe the hostility in the posts of the person you had to explain it to.

SMH

[JackInGreen]

139. It's damned strange

how often that has to be explained.

[Maedhros]

84. Perhaps, but then some monogamy is rape as well.

Maybe avoiding the "All {X} is {Y}" generalizations is a better way to go?

[PatrynXX]

134. don't particularly see the need to hide your post but it's not rape

now is it ethical. meh depends. Polygamists can rape but Polygamy in and of itself is not rape.

Would be like calling all gun owners murderers. Which I'm pro background checks I'm not anti gun. Or like calling all Mexicans Rapists and we know where thats going

[boston bean]

14. First, my best to you. I am glad you are doing well, and that your rapist

is rotting in a grave. And I congratulate you on your courage.

Second though, is that many times women in polygamist marriages do not have a choice as to when to have sex.

That in my book is rape.

So, there are many ways in which a woman can be raped and the horrifying brutality you experienced is not the only way.

Is there someone who said that every woman in a polygamist marriage is being raped?

[GeorgeGist]

22. Yes there is.

[Kevin from WI]

28. pretty much

and they also implied that you are "homophobic" and "sexist" if you disagreed with them. It was a rather a hateful post designed to cause outrage. Consider yourself lucky that you missed it.

[boston bean]

33. Well, there are homophobic and sexist/misogynist basis in these

arrangements, much of the time, due to religion.

I'm not sure that translates into every person in a polygamous marriage is raped.

[Kevin from WI]

47. Agreed

And that is a rational response to the issue. I think there are some people on DU who are more interested in being right than rational and honest, so they paint with a very broad brush. Everything has to fit in their narrow view of the world.

[boston bean]

54. But many times, the woman does not have a choice...

I don't think the discussion is served well by tip toeing around that unassailable fact.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

72. ^ n/t

[Kevin from WI]

86. Why does poly have to have a female

Couldn't 3 male atheists get hitched? Poly doesn't always have to be a conventional religious based union in a male dominated society. I don't support forced unions, and I haven't heard anyone defend that here. If it is consensual and involves adults I don't see how it can be an issue. For some people this type of marriage is a happy and loving one.

[boston bean]

88. In terms of this discussion, it was about females. Why can't it be.

It is a very large problem. Is it one to be ignored because three men could be in a polygamist marriage?

[Kevin from WI]

92. So are you against marriage equality for poly couples in the USA for consenting adults?

Do you want to prevent marriage equality for adult consenting poly couples in the USA? My support for marriage equality for poly couples is not ignoring the problem. Please stop saying that I, or others who share my point of view are ignoring the issues you mention. That is not fair to me or the poly community here in the USA.

[boston bean]

93. I don't think I ever said such a thing. nt

[Lordquinton]

117. No one is tip-toeing around it, it's a red herring

Monogamous marriage have the exact same problems. That's the fact people want to avoid.

[boston bean]

122. It is not the exact same problem.

monogamists have one spouse. polygamists have more than one.

And usually it is more than one women versus men.

So, no it is not the same problem.

[Lordquinton]

138. I think you need to educate yourself about what poly relationships are

instead of relying on stereotypes and borderline racist descriptions. The Warren Jeffs of the world are few and far between, and they are actually committing actual crimes. They can be living in a poly setting, without legal binding, but their religion can still bind them, and it's no different in their world. Making it a marriage legal would give the women protection in this case. Of course the spousal rape that goes on in traditional marriage would probably be just as ignored in poly arrangements, as is shown in this thread.

[uppityperson]

104. many times women in monagamist marriages do not have a choice as to when to have sex

That in my book is rape. Also.

"Is there someone who said that every woman in a polygamist marriage is being raped?" There are those who say a polygamist marriage is rape, in and of itself.

[boston bean]

108. right, that would go without saying, but glad you did.

Of course there rape can happen in a monogamist marriage as well.

Can you link me to the post that states what you say?

[uppityperson]

109. no, sorry, have been on and off, reading and not going to research as time is limited

again, sorry, I hate to not give proof.

[boston bean]

110. I'm not looking for "proof", I would like to understand the context..

that was all.

Have a good day!

[oberliner]

142. many times women in monogamist marriages do not have a choice as to when to have sex.

That is not something unique to polygamist marriages.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

18. I am just dumbstruck with incredulity at some of the responses you have received in this thread.

I would even comment on the whole polygamy thing but the atmosphere is so poisoned words have deserted me.

Strength and peace to you.

[Akicita]

99. Agreed. Someone on this thread was actually advocating the rape by a barb wired

baseball bat(metaphorically I hope) for any one who disagreed with his/her view of rape.

[Whatthe_Firetruck]

127. nt

It depends on the definition of polygamy you're using. The previous definition had to do with marriage being between one man and one woman, or one man and many woman, and that does indeed have such a reputation. But with the new supreme court ruling marriages definition no longer deals with the *genders* of the parties involved. But only with the requirement that they are adult, and consenting.

Now that marriage can be man and man, or woman and woman, polygamy no longer has to be defined as 1 male and more than one female. Now we can have polygamy with more than one husband. Say, a female dominatrix and her two male submissives. Or two gays, and two lesbians who combine monetary and biological resources to give everyone involved biological children without involving complicated fertility treatments. It's an entirely new paradigm, and we're just going to have to get used to it.

[uppityperson]

156. Welcome to DU. That "nt" is generally placed in the reply title when there is No Text in the body

of the message down here. It is a courtesy to those on mobile devices so they know they don't need to open each post to see the entire message.

[Whatthe_Firetruck]

159. Right, noted. Thought it meant 'no title' =) /nt

[Le Taz Hot]

5. As has been explained TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN

not all polygamy is Warren Jeffs, but you and you're co-horts don't want to know.

I offered up one scenario of rape. No where did I say that was the only scenario. You said that.

Fuck! Did someone send out the Douchebag Signal?

[kcr]

19. Not all of it, but a huge percentage of it is.

A not insignificant part. Certainly not enough to be dismissed.

[Le Taz Hot]

21. I think there are WAY more consensual polygamous

relationships than we know of. The problem is, there are no reliable statistics on the subject because they're not going to self report in a survey.

You have to be able to separate things like Jeffs and his ilk to polygamous relationships between CONSENTING ADULTS. I don't think everyone should be denied equal marriage rights just become some people abuse the construct.

One more thing. Rape happens in monogamous marriages as well but no one is advocating for marriage to be eliminated just become some abuse it.

[KittyWampus]

27. and -I- think there are way more abusive polygamous relationships that involve rape.

So come up with some actual statistics if you think there are so many healthy polygamist relationships out there.

As Bluenorthwest said to the newbie who spams GD with threads pro-polygamy… where's the movement? Where are all these people yearning to be free to marry multiple people?

The ones we see here and abroad are mostly abusive to young women and children.

You are the one who started the OP.

We may all empathize with you over being raped.

But as some one up thread said, your experience is not what every instance of rape is.

And polygamy hurts women and children and society. And it often involves nonconsensual sex with women (often teenagers).

I apologize if you don't actually want to talk about the broader subject involved here. Maybe you were triggered and decided to share your experience and don't want/expect anyone to actually discuss that broader subject except to fully agree with you? If this is the case you might want to post this in a different forum where you can be sure not to get a full discussion:

Here is the Forum:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1266

[kcr]

126. Why do you think that? Are you just guessing? n/t

[Le Taz Hot]

130. I conduct surveys for a living.

[kcr]

151. Okay. And?

You're saying you did an actual survey?

[Le Taz Hot]

152. The surveys are for the U.S. Census Bureau

I ask about living situations, among other things. No, polygamous/polyamorous don't usually self report, at least officially, but I visit people's homes and have seen a wide variety of living arrangements. Anything more specific would be a violation of federal law.

[kcr]

154. Okay. But that doesn't answer the question, so

I'll put that down as, yes. Guessing.

[Quackers]

95. @alarimer, what the fuck is wrong with you?

What gives you the right to say she made that experience up? That's sick!

[Le Taz Hot]

96. In days past that would have been

a tombstonable offense. But times change and sometimes not for the better.

As I said below, who the HELL would make up a story like that?

[brooklynite]

13. From the "Stalin was an atheist so all atheists are as evil as Stalin" school of argument?

[Kevin from WI]

30. Exactly

[demwing]

66. Or "Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore..." /nt

[brooklynite]

67. Well, THAT of course goes without saying...

You can't trust vegetarians.

[Kevin from WI]

87. gosh damn it I am a vegetarian too

I must really be a horrible person.

[BKH70041]

6. You are correct.

Those who are trying to oppose multi-partner marriage have gone off the rails. Once they start things like "It's rape", or the oh so common effort at this site to shut up those who are intellectually their superiors by saying "you're using RW talking points!", then you know they're past desperate and unable to make their case.

Good to hear you're doing well. Peace.

[Nitram]

55. Isn't it rape if underage children are involved?

Underage children have been involved in several of the polygamy cases that went to trial.

[eggplant]

58. WTF does that have to do with anything?

Underage children have been involved is several monogamy cases that went to trial, too.

Rape is a violent crime. Marriage doesn't cause rape. Rapists cause rape.

Often times, they aren't even married. Stop conflating the two.

[Nitram]

61. Calm down, I'm just suggesting that some people may have equated /conflated polygamy with..

...child marriage, as they often go together. I'm not agreeing with that view, just trying to figure out where it came from. No need to be so rude eggplant.

[uppityperson]

105. Sex with an underage child is rape, no matter if they are monogamous, poly, or whatever

Some places in the world "child marriage" goes with monogamy, some places with polygamy.

[Nitram]

145. Exactly my point.

[pipoman]

7. This is exactly the crock o shitthat I was pissed about here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6943887

I am not sure why this is OK here at DU...stating any similarities between soda drinkers and rape victims is minimizing the reality and horror of actual rape victims...it shouldn't be allowed here imho

[uppityperson]

106. Sometimes you gotta say what needs saying, even though you know it'll be hidden.

Good post.

[pipoman]

120. I hadn't had a post hidden for well over a year...

[luvspeas]

9. Thank you for being amazingly brave!

It was a lot tougher back then to have the courage to go to the police. That must have been very very difficult. If you hadn't reported him he might have been able to continue to do this to more than just one other person.

Rape is rape and can happen in all sorts of relationships, to all sorts of people and in all sorts of situations. There's no typical situation or type of person or even form, for that matter.

[Le Taz Hot]

11. Yes, rape is rape and can happen in all sorts of relationships

INCLUDING monogamous ones. But CONSENSUAL ADULTS agreeing to be in a polygamous relationship is THEIR business and in no way resembles rape.

Just for the record, it wasn't the police who were a pain in the ass in this case it was the spineless D.A. who gave him one whole year. He should have never been let out so soon. They plea-bargained down the case from 4 counts to 2 and then they went easy on the poor widdle fellow because, well, boys will be boys.

[madokie]

15. I wanted to say something

this will have to do

Thank you for reliving this for a moment so there is no doubt about what rape is and what it isn't.

[Le Taz Hot]

16. Thanks, madokie.

Right out of the chute, the first two replies, "funny" Bill Cosby stuff and an accusation that I made it up. Who the HELL would make something like this up?

I know this makes people uncomfortable but sometimes "in your face" is the only thing that works for some. Others will continue to remain deaf, dumb and blind.

Thanks for the rec.

[madokie]

20. I no longer will allow either to appear on my monitor

I know it doesn't do anything for you but it does for me.

[Le Taz Hot]

24. Yes it does do something for me.

It reminds me that there are lots of people on DU who have my back, and I theirs.

[madokie]

25. .

[plcdude]

63. Always

have considered you from way back a significant contributor so I too will have your back. It must be a generational thing.

[Plucketeer]

101. I wanna echo this

Le Taz - thanks for sharing your horrific tale. I have a really ugly episode in my history that has nothing to do with rape, so I'm not gonna share it here. But I will offer that I've learned to tell of that event thru the years with less and less guilt about my part in it. My conclusion is that it's very cathartic to recount it and consequently gets easier to deal with with each telling of it. I sense you've come to terms with your trauma as I have with mine. Don't let the nit-pickers and the contortionists succeed in de-railing your path.

[raccoon]

17. Thank you for reporting that SOB to the police. That was courageous of you.

Also courageous of you to share it here.

[Le Taz Hot]

23. It's up to each individual rape victim whether or not they want

to share their stories. I don't blame other rape victims for choosing not to. But years ago I determined that, if the situation called for it, I would share because I didn't do anything to be ashamed of.

[jonno99]

42. +1

[Hydra]

29. Thank you for trying to bring some sense to the dialogue

It sounds like a RW echo chamber in here with all the accusations, disinformation and false framing.

[Ilsa]

31. That took a lot of courage for you to

File charges against him, especially with his wife being your friend. I've had to file charges on a family member before, but it wasn't physical assault. At least you were able to get a legal record documenting his crimes so that he ended up dead in prison anyway.

I'm so sorry you had to go through that terrifying ordeal. I'm glad you survived it. I'm sure that later there were times when you questioned your ability to judge others to become friends when your "friends" did this to you.

[amuse bouche]

32. Your experience was horrific

I don't get the animosity of some posters towards you. It's absolutely vile and unacceptable

[Le Taz Hot]

34. Ah, I've been ruffling feathers around here

since 2001. And damned proud of it!

[calimary]

35. OMG! What a hideous experience!

I appreciate your sharing it. I can't imagine how hard it must be to relive that horror. What an outrage!

It's such a sickness! Sex and violence tied up together like that. I was always taught that sex was something beautiful and terrific between two people who either love each other, or are at least really hot for each other. Putting a crown, if you will, of physicality to a strong emotion of affection. The ultimate expression of intimate fondness. I mean - why else do they call it "love-making"? Violence doesn't even enter into it. Not even supposed to, in my opinion. That the whole concept is violated by violence and domination and degradation is just - well, it is indeed a kind of rape of the very concept of love-making.

I'm so sorry you had to go through that, Taz. I appreciate your sharing it. Sometimes I guess it's necessary to tell the whole story so others might get even the smallest sense of how truly horrible it is. The word "horrible" doesn't even begin to describe what you went through.

[Le Taz Hot]

37. Oh, thanks, calimary,

but I came out the other side just fine, well, after awhile, anyway. But when somebody tries to tell me "such and such is JUST LIKE rape" it makes my blood boil and I have to call bullshit.

[Enthusiast]

80. Thank you for calling bullshit. You need a bullhorn for all the bullshit around here lately.

[TM99]

36. Thank you!

You are right. It is very disgusting to see this conflation of rape and polyamory/polygamy.

I am also a rape survivor. I, too, have moved well beyond it. However, it does gall me that some asshats on these 'liberal' (ha fucking ha!) boards are saying some of the shit they are saying.

I appreciate your courage and your communication.

[Le Taz Hot]

39. . . .

The important part is that we ARE survivors. Too many aren't. And those of us that did survive need to speak up for those who are not able to.

[TM99]

43. I became a therapist in part

because I needed to heal that and many other things from my childhood. I have remained one over the years to help others who as you say are not always able to speak up or fight back against the abuse and horror that is sadly such a regular occurrence in life.

[Kevin from WI]

38. Thank you Le Taz Hot for your post

There is an ugly side to DU. I see ugly things posted here too often. Thank you for standing up and saying what's right even though you knew ahead of time that you would be attacked for doing so.

[Le Taz Hot]

40. Thanks, hon.

If I had a dollar for every time I was attacked on this board I'd be a rich, rich woman. LOL!

[Duppers]

41. The person who replied that you made this up..

Should be BANNED FROM DU!!

[jonno99]

44. Thanks so much for sharing your story. We found out last year that a member

of our family was raped - twice by the same adult - when he was just 10 (~35 years ago). He was threatened so he never told anyone. He said that he didn't want the experience to define him - and yet it is obvious through the large number of broken relationships he's had that it has affected him.

It's sad to think how his life would have been so much less dysfunctional if he could have just reached out. Your bravery is admirable...

[Le Taz Hot]

48. 10!

Holy hell! At least I was an adult and knew what was coming. Give him one of these for me the next time you see him:

[jonno99]

57. Thank you

[La Lioness Priyanka]

45. I believe that there are polygamous couples where no one is oppressed, however, i don't think that's

the norm. The world has had a long history of polygamy which did not (*and does not) work out so well for women, especially older women.

However, I am not sure why this is made into a rape comparison.

[KittyWampus]

51. because the women and young women in those scenarios are no free to say no-

or are groomed from an early age to say yes.

[boston bean]

52. I believe, if I am reading and following correctly..

That a comparison of many polygamist relationships, where women do not have the right to refuse, is rape was made. Also, that the practice itself is based in sexism/misogyny and homophobia.

And in this thread, that is trying to be debunked by telling people what rape really is.

I'm not sure. None the less, the OPs experience should never be questioned, as was done upthread.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

64. aah! i get it now.

[haele]

116. Depends on the point of reference and sub-group dynamics.

When I was doing Medieval recreation (SCA) back in the 1980's through 2000's, I knew quite a few polygamous groupings (in fact, I was invited to join two of them back in the 80's), and back in the old NewsGroup age of the internet, I came across a lot of long-term polygamous triads and "households" established back in the hippie days - mainly on the West Coast or out of Florida. (Apparently, a lot of retirees practice a type of "caretaker" polygamy where a younger couple or a widow or widower sets up a household with an married couple - primarily to help out.) Looking back, I knew of thirty cases of consensual polygamy over 25 years.
In not one of these relationships that I was aware of, was a spouse forced to have sex against his or her will.

As to "rape is common in polygamy, so you shouldn't accept polygamy", it's rather the same as saying (excuse me for being crude) "since poor messed-in-the-head sluts primarily use abortion as birth control, we shouldn't accept abortion".
Prior to the 1980's rape in a monogamous marriage was accepted, just as it was accepted practice that married women couldn't take out credit cards or have bank accounts in their own names - or use birth control without their husband's permission.
Polygamy is a codified relationship in the same class as Monogamy. Just, in this country, a polygamist relationship is typically centered around the legally married pair, with the satellite partners identified as dependents, "housemates", or very close friends.

And what about serial monogamists, who have their current wife/husband and their mistress/cicisbeo vying for who's going to be the next legal spouse when they get tired of the spouse they have? A man or woman who has been married three, four, five or more times - aren't they basically polygamists?

While there are fundy LDS and other cults that practice unwilling polygamy, child marriage, or strict patriarchal polygamy, it is still only the function of law that determines whether or not a spouse could be raped in those relationships and put a stop to it in those relationships. Just as it is a function of the law that will determine whether or not a spouse could be raped in a monogamous relationship.

I suspect that there's a lot of poly groupings around the US considering themselves "married" that don't get noticed by people who study that sort of relationship, because they aren't like the nasty fundy cultists who abuse their children and their women. And of course, no one likes to talk about the swingers, or spouse swappers, and that sub-group...

Haele

[riderinthestorm]

124. Polyamory is fine. Institutionalized patriarchy as exemplified by polygamy not so much nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

149. that's my point. i have no issues with polyamory but institutionalized polygamy and bigamy

have traditionally not worked out so well for women.

[Lordquinton]

118. I believe that there are monogamous couples where no one is oppressed, however, i don't think that's

the norm. The world has had a long history of monogamy which did not (*and does not) work out so well for women, especially older women.

However, I am not sure why this is made into a rape comparison.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

148. actually, that's not really true. monogamous marriages are pretty new

for a very long time, in most cultures men were allowed multiple wives. in parts of the world where women are severely oppressed, men are still allowed multiple wives.

[prayin4rain]

46. Ugh, what a terrifying and horrible experience.

I know you don't need condolences, but still, I'm so sorry and outraged that he did this. It's infuriating.

I am also genuinely confused by your story in context to another poster's assertion that all non-consensual sex is rape.

Are you saying that some non-consensual sex is not rape?

Or, are you saying that not all polymarriage sex is non-consensual?

Or, both?

[Le Taz Hot]

50. I was trying to say that not all polymarraige sex is non-consensual.

Awkwardly, perhaps, but I was pissed at the time and probably got sloppy in my writing

[prayin4rain]

62. That makes sense and I agree with you.

I took the other poster's position as, essentially:
Two persons marriages have a much lower percentage of male domination than plural marriages and that non-consensual sex (rape) is much more likely in a plural marriage.

I can see why you got angry if you thought the other poster was pulling out a rape comparison simply to try to win an argument because that would be a really low blow.

I think whether plural marriages would be detrimental, beneficial, or neutral for the vulnerable persons in society is worth discussing. If someone has evidence that rape occurs more often in plural marriages,they should provide such evidence. Surmise and suspicion is probably not enough to put forth an argument based on something as horrific rape. But, we don't have enough real world american cases to evaluate effectively, so it's difficult. Regardless, I can see why it would piss you off.

[KG]

49. K/R

[riderinthestorm]

53. I am truly sorry for your experience but marital rape happens too

I'm not very comfortable diminishing the horror of marital rape either...



Polygamy hasn't worked well for women and children in reality.

While I'm certain there are consensual polyamorous relationships, polygamy isn't that.

[Le Taz Hot]

60. I'm not diminishing the experience of marital rape,

I am countering the idiotic claim that all sex within a polygamous relationship is rape.

I'd like to say it was a nice strawman but it wasn't. That was amateur time.

[riderinthestorm]

65. The issue of consent is of crucial importance with sex

god knows there's been a million posts on DU alone about it.

Polygamy removes a woman's sexual agency and most importantly removes her consent in a whole host of other areas that typically require consent between married people.

It's not like your rape for sure but removing a married females sexual agency in marriage, well, there's been a flotilla of virtual ink spilled over that definition of rape...

[msanthrope]

97. This. nt

[Lordquinton]

119. Monogamy hasn't worked well for women and children in reality.

People aren't talking about the stereotype, they are talking about real poly relationships.

The hatred and right wing talking points are out of control on this board.

[riderinthestorm]

123. Polyamory is fine. Institutionalized patriarchy as exemplified by polygamy not so much nt

[Lordquinton]

137. And the two are easily distinguised

and you shouldn't tar poly groups with your stereotype of polygamy. If you're that worried about Institutionalized patriarchy you have way more to be worried about than poly folks wanting rights, for example: "traditional" marriage is rooted in deeply patriarchal values where women are treated like property and no one who raises a fury over poly issues seems to life a finger when reminded that it's entrenched in the current system.

[JackInGreen]

141. This

[LittleGirl]

59. Thanks for sharing that

I know it was 40 yrs ago but you described it like it was yesterday and for that, I'm awe struck. Been there, done that, didn't report it. It happened a few times to me and I still suffer with physical contact even from my spouse. Sometimes, I just can't do it. Those memories never go away and it's painful and I try to forget it. But your story, wow. Hugs and love.

[Le Taz Hot]

68. For two years after that

I couldn't be in a room alone with a man alone without panicking and looking for a door, a window, anywhere I could get out. Didn't matter who it was, how long I'd known them or how much I trusted them. The panic was inward and I didn't show it but it was very real. I also couldn't keep anything on my stomach for about a year after that. I got down to 87 lbs. At one point I saw a picture of myself at that weight and was horrified.

Victims do what is right for them. I happen to think most rapes aren't reported. Know that you're not alone.

[LittleGirl]

75. Thanks.

I seriously have to forget those moments or it will haunt me.

I forgot to mention in my previous post - some of these replies really pissed me off. Fuck that.

[Jack Rabbit]

69. Thank you, La Taz

I admire your courage.

K/R.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

70. FUCK THE GODDAMMED RAPISTS AND THEIR DEFENDERS!!!!!

FUCK ANYONE WHO DOESN'T GET THE MEANING OF TRYING NOT TO ANTAGONIZE WHEN YOUR ATTACKER IS 3 TIMES YOUR SIZE AND ON A HAIRTRIGGER.

FUCK COURTS THAT THINK IT'S JUST RAPE, NO BIG DEAL, LIGHT SENTENCES ARE FINE.

FUCK ANYONE WHO THINKS IT'S JUST UPSET LADIES, *YAWN*.


fuck them all with a barbed wire baseball bat.

[Le Taz Hot]

71. There ya go!

My sentiments exactly. And fuck anyone who thinks victims make up rape stories. Un-fucking-believable!

[Akicita]

89. I agree with you completely

As long as it is consensual. Otherwise you are advocating rape. Brutal rape at that. Which is appalling not to mention hypocritical.

[rock]

73. I am truly sorry that you had to go through that ordeal

And it was rape.

[tavalon]

74. Thank you

As a life long polyamorous woman, I'm frustrated to still hear this shit. Responsible non-monogamy and even religion based polygamy can and usually is fully consensual. When it isn't consensual then any forcible sexual encounter in any framework is rape.

[Le Taz Hot]

77. I conduct surveys for the government

(not that they self-disclose but I have eyes) and it's WAY more common than most people believe.

[snort]

79. "When it isn't consensual then any forcible sexual encounter in any framework is rape."

Exactly.

[TBF]

76. This ought to be at the top of the greatest -

many of us have been there. It may be what brought some to the democratic party. And you are correct - it may be years ago but that trigger never goes away. You still see it in your head even though it's somewhat removed now.

[craigmatic]

78. Thank youbest comment of the week on the poly subject.

[timdog44]

81. condolences

anyway. You suffered and still are. My tears are being spilled. I have suffered physically, grievously, through out my life. It does not compare to what you have.
Polygamy is not always rape, but not a forum for what you went through. People are using polygamy as a podium agains same sex marriage. Which is wrong.

[Le Taz Hot]

82. . . .

May you have the best of all things from now on.

[LittleBlue]

83. K&R

[Cleita]

85. Consensual sex is not rape no matter how bizarre it is to some of us.

I have nothing against having multiple spouses if everyone is in agreement to the arrangement. I do believe polygamy is rape if it involves forcing children and teenagers into such an arrangement or even adults for that matter if the participants are unwilling. I think that happens in some polygamous societies where a young woman is forced to marry a man two to three times her age and who has other wives. I definitely consider that rape.

btw I'm sorry you had such an awful experience and glad that you got some justice in the end.

[Tatiana La Belle]

128. +1

+1

[Spitfire of ATJ]

90. Rape isn't about sex any more than hitting someone in the head with a hammer is about carpentry.

[d_legendary1]

91. All I gotta say is

That's all I can say about your ordeal.


And I hope the first two posters choke on pretzels! Not cool.

[boston bean]

94. Poster # 2 is also a rape victim. I hope you don't mean she should choke on a pretzel.

And also, it was a bogus hide, I can't believe that was hidden.

[riderinthestorm]

102. I also agree it was a bogus hide. Polygamy as practiced today, erases women's choice

and sexual agency.

The lack of consent is rape. Marital rape doesn't often look violent but it's just as much rape as what happened to Le Taz Hot.

There are far more kinds of rape than the OP and I think that's what Sheldon Cooper was saying.

[boston bean]

103. Yep, and a rape victim punished here on DU for speaking her mind about it.

That has got to be the worst hide I have ever seen.

Would love to see what the alerter wrote.

[riderinthestorm]

111. Well other DUers want her to choke on a pretzel

So there's that.

[boston bean]

114. That's true too. disturbing to say the least. nt

[Mojorabbit]

132. Can you elaborate on how it erases women's choice

and I am leaving out the cults.

[riderinthestorm]

150. Im not leaving out the cults, Islam or Mormonism

you may want to. I understand because that where women's rights get erased. That's where her ability to consent or have choices disappears. Polygamy as its practiced today (and that's the only models we have), is terrible for women and children.

Polyamory is not polygamy.

I'm perfectly fine with polyamory.

If you can devise a new legal framework for polygamy that empowers women and children, I'd be all for it. Obergefell has zero to do with polygamy so please don't make the common mistake of thinking that is legally analogous. It's not.

[d_legendary1]

146. She may be a victim, but it doesn't give her the right to

shit on someone else's traumatic experience. I wasn't attacking the person but rather the idea that one rape is worse than another. Rape is rape period. I don't agree that someone who had the stones to put their expereince into words ought to be questioned about how bad it was.

[boston bean]

157. "may be a victim" WTH??

[d_legendary1]

158. Should I replace it with "Though she is a victim"

so you could understand where I'm getting at or would you rather nit pick my arguments for me?

[oneshooter]

113. Someone almost had a sadz

On Wed Jul 8, 2015, 04:22 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

All I gotta say is
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6952519

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"And I hope the first two posters choke on pretzels! "

Yea, cuz wishing death or near death on someone is oh so cool. Rude, insensitive and way over the top.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Jul 8, 2015, 04:31 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is clearly a metaphorical comment, not a death wish (it may be implying a comparison to Bush!). A bit close to being a personal attack, but so are the posts to which it's replying.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: heard a lot worse said to legal gun owners, and a jury let it slide.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: That phrase is not a genuine death wish. It was an expression of disagreement. I read through this entire post earlier. EVERYONE needs to back up and take a breath. But don't alert something like this.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: IT is way over the top.

[d_legendary1]

147. Yaaaooosaaa!!!

The good news is that most people here understand the sentiment. No one wishes death on anybody here, at least I would hope.

[lostnfound]

100. Kudos to you for having the strength and clarity to share this.

A good reminder.

[get the red out]

107. If I really commented on any polygamy thread

I would be having pizza for dinner, and I'm off wheat, so no comment.

[NickB79]

112. I fail to see the "polygamy = rape" connection as well

Hell, I was propositioned by two women in college who were in a committed relationship and were looking for a polyamorous relationship with me in it.

If I had begun dating them, at their request, would they have been guilty of raping me?

[Dont call me Shirley]

115. Rape is being forced to have sex, perform sexual acts, threat of sexual force, rape of the mind

as with a pedophile corrupting a child online, sexual harassment. It is forced invasion of another's personal sexual space whether it be body, mind or emotion.

[Le Taz Hot]

131. No arguments from me.

I just took exception at people saying ALL sex within polygamous marriages is rape. It's not rape when two (or more) CONSENTING ADULTS are involved.

[Dont call me Shirley]

155. That is so true. Truly consenting adults can have sex with as many consenting adults as they want.

I've know several swinger couples, still happily married too, although I know no polygamists.

[jtuck004]

133. Rape has nothing to do with sex. n/t

[Lithos]

121. Sorry to hear this...

L-

[Babel_17]

125. Thanks for spelling it out like that.

This is part of the world we live in and the least we can do is face it squarely.

[JackInGreen]

135. Thank you

Le taz. Just thank you.

[WillyT]

136. The Bravest Post I've Seen On DU...

Le Taz... Thank you.

I'm the oldest (son) of 4 with 3 younger sisters.

I learned a lot as a male by having that blessing/curse.

The blessing was the sisters... the curse was how they were treated during their young lives.

I could go on... and you and I... anytime.

But I just want to say... I love you, support you, and agree with you.

Theory is important... Reality trumps all.

[Le Taz Hot]

143. WillieT

Man, you are just the best. I've always said it and I always will.

Thank you, darlin'. As always, I appreciate your love and support and right back atcha!

[MrMickeysMom]

140. After reading this, I cannot get over all of the hidden message by jury...

What.The.Fuck….

[Le Taz Hot]

144. Thankfully, I can only see a couple of them.

I think being accused of making this up was the low point, though.

And for anyone who is curious, no, I didn't Alert on any of them.

[Uncle Joe]

153. Kicked and recommeded.

Thanks for sharing, Le Taz Hot.

[Hekate]

160. I can't believe the hijacking of your thread by others who want to deny derail diminish...

....and otherwise trivialize your experience and your statement. is wrong with some people here?

Thank you for your post. A belated KnR from me.

Edited to add: three posters just went on Full Ignore now that I've read their hidden posts. Th at just sick.