Syriza in shock over creditors' demands

[muriel_volestrangler]

While Greece’s fate was being debated in Brussels, in Athens the ruling radical left Syriza party was exhibiting signs of disintegration. Demands that the controversial reforms be approved by the Greek government and enacted into law by Wednesday were described as “utter blackmail” by leading party members and met with stunned disbelief.

Although sources close to prime minister Alexis Tsipras said the leader was now determined to do whatever was needed to keep Grexit at bay, political tumult also beckoned. Insiders conceded that a cabinet reshuffle – removing those ministers who had refused to vote the austerity package through parliament early Saturday – could come as early as Monday.

“What is sure is that we are going to have dramatic political developments,” said Nikos Bistis, a veteran politician from the centre left. “Basically Syriza is now split in two.”

By late Sunday it had become clear Tsipras’ u-turn, accepting measures he had once furiously spurned, had produced a tectonic split with potentially far-reaching consequences. In addition to suffering an unexpected loss of support with 17 MPs breaking ranks at the weekend – defections that strip his government of a working majority – 15 other lawmakers also indicated that they would not approve the agreement in its entirety when it was brought to the 300-seat House.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live#block-55a2b47be4b07fc6a121fc54

Helena Smith goes on to say it could mean new elections.

[Warpy]

1. It could and if Merkel doesn't like Syriza

she'll like the Communists even less.

I hope Tsipras is taking the Grexit possibility seriously enough to start making contingency plans, like issuing bank cards in the absence of printed drachmas, so that people can access their money internally but not take it out of the country.

[PoliticAverse]

2. You would think someone has a secret emergency plan developed in the last 6 months. n/t

[DFW]

6. "Too big to fail " can apply to a country, too

They figured that the EU would never run out of money to plug their deficit.

[starroute]

15. Paul Krugman says there isn't

"Tsipras apparently allowed himself to be convinced, some time ago, that euro exit was completely impossible. It appears that Syriza didn’t even do any contingency planning for a parallel currency (I hope to find out that this is wrong). This left him in a hopeless bargaining position. I’m even hearing from people who should know that Ambrose Evans-Pritchard is right, that he hoped to lose the referendum, to give an excuse for capitulation."
(http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/disaster-in-europe/?module=BlogPost-Title&version=Blog%20Main&contentCollection=Opinion&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs®ion=Body)

And in a follow-up post an hour ago, Krugman wrote:

"Suppose you consider Tsipras an incompetent twerp. Suppose you dearly want to see Syriza out of power. Suppose, even, that you welcome the prospect of pushing those annoying Greeks out of the euro.

"Even if all of that is true, this Eurogroup list of demands is madness. The trending hashtag ThisIsACoup is exactly right. This goes beyond harsh into pure vindictiveness, complete destruction of national sovereignty, and no hope of relief. It is, presumably, meant to be an offer Greece can’t accept; but even so, it’s a grotesque betrayal of everything the European project was supposed to stand for."
(http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/killing-the-european-project/?module=BlogPost-Title&version=Blog%20Main&contentCollection=Opinion&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs®ion=Body)

[PoliticAverse]

16. "it’s a grotesque betrayal of everything the European project was supposed to stand for"

So it's worse than a country lying its way into the Euro then?

[starroute]

20. Yes, it's worse

Good people doing bad things is worse than bad people doing bad things.

Lying is lying, and it's just what corrupt oligarchs do.

But betraying your principles is a whole other order of bad, especially when it's carried out by people who claim to know better.

[Nevernose]

37. They got swindled

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-03-06/goldman-secret-greece-loan-shows-two-sinners-as-client-unravels

Greek politicians got swindled by Goldman Sachs and their derivative game -- just like the rest of the world -- and now retirees are supposed to pay the price for a very few members of an incompetent government who got snookered fifteen years ago?

The concept is ridiculous, and repeatedly claiming that "Greece" lied fifteen years ago does nothing to ameliorate the fact that private German bankers are now extorting common Greek citizens for their own personal enrichment.

[mythology]

44. You can't lay all of Greece's financial problems at the feet of a few oligarchs or bankers

The country has a long history of being exceedingly generous with their pensions and tax fraud is rampant. Both of those apply up and down the political and economic spectrum.

Yes Goldman Sachs needs to be punished for their part in the fraud, but the Greek people are ultimately the ones who put themselves in this position through decades of political and economic incompetence.

It's easy to say that Goldman Sachs is at fault and blame them because they are a big bank. But just like home buyers shouldn't have taken all those adjustable or teaser rate mortgages, the underlying problem is people want things they aren't willing to pay for. The Greek people wanted very generous pensions, they wanted to be part of the Euro, they wanted to not pay taxes. Unfortunately the math eventually adds up. All Goldman Sachs did was delay paying the piper and taking a good chunk of change for themselves in the process. Unethical and illegal, but not the root of the problem.

And those private German bankers are actually doing their financial duty to make sure that the money they are lending out is likely to be paid back. They owe that to the people who deposited money in their banks. Right now, there is no evidence that Greece wants to repay their debts.

[Surya Gayatri]

55. Can I hear an 'amen'?

The Greek people wanted very generous pensions, they wanted to be part of the Euro, they wanted to not pay taxes. Unfortunately the math eventually adds up.

Unethical and illegal, but not the root of the problem.

[Recursion]

51. You can't call it a "swindle" when they were paying Goldman Sachs to lie for them

When I hire someone to say something I know isn't true, they're not swindling me. Greece paid Goldman Sachs to cook the books.

[muriel_volestrangler]

3. There's no chance of the communists winning

No-one would go into a coalition led by them. But if there were a new election, and the parliament became even more fragmented, they could end up with no-one able to lead a coalition. And then the EU would push for a 'technocrat' to take control, rather as happened in Italy a few years ago. But the consequences for Greece would be far greater.

[Warpy]

7. "Winning" would mean a chunk of a coalition government

They don't have to win it all in order to "win."

[muriel_volestrangler]

8. They wouldn't be a junior member of a coalition

The communists who were willing to form a coalition with anyone left to form the left-most part of Syriza.

[DFW]

4. If a "New Drachma" isn't convertible

It will have the same effect. The Black Market will flourish for a while, of course. There aren't enough customs officers in Greece (let alone non-bribable ones) to police THAT coastline. But the initial chaos will subside, and some sort of system would be established. I just hope that if and when that happens, it isn't someone like Goldman Sachs they turn to for help. GS's little game to get Greece into the Euro in the first place didn't turn out so well.

[Warpy]

9. The black markets will be how a lot of them survive.

Greece desperately needs to do an internal audit. GS "helped" them hide their debt, using outdated currency exchange rates that were unfavorable to Greece and pocketing the difference while increasing their debt load.

With an audit to show where the money went and when, they could start building a case for "odious debt" that would get much of it written off.

The hardliners like Merkel would be loads of fun to watch if that happened.

[DFW]

46. Merkel as a hardliner is a myth spun by the ones who paint her photo with a Hitler mustache

Last edited Mon Jul 13, 2015, 09:32 AM - Edit history (1)

Don't fall for it.

Schäuble is the hardliner in that administration, not Merkel, who is a fervent European Unionist at heart, and has actually gone to bat plenty for Greece while her party and (especially) her lower-income taxpayers have been howling at her to give Greece not another Euro before she either reduces their own tax burden (e.g. ditch the Soli), or spends it on German infrastructure. She is the one in the administration who has been trying hardest to find a way to keep Greece in the Euro even though she has been saying it in soft terms in order to not find herself out of a job the next morning (parliamentary systems can do that, unlike ours). The ones who paint her photo with a Hitler mustache are more like the Nazis than she ever was. If she could (which she can't legally), she would jail any German politician doing that publicly to a photo of Tsipiras or Varoufakis (which, incidentally, they haven't), while their people gleefully do so to her photo in Greece and publicly gloat about it.

Black markets have existed in (and, to a great extent, at times sustained) every country on the Mediterranean except maybe Monte Carlo at some time or other. Most still do so today. You aren't going to change a thousand year old way of life overnight.*

*on edit--though now is not too soon to start!

[Surya Gayatri]

56. Hey, DFW, glad you dared to wade in here - SO spot on...

Merkel, who is a fervent European Unionist at heart, has actually gone to bat plenty for Greece while her party and (especially) her lower-income taxpayers have been howling at her to give Greece not another Euro before she either reduces their own tax burden (e.g. ditch the Soli), or spends it on German infrastructure.

[brooklynite]

10. Where is Syriza getting the money for "issuing bank cards"?

[stevenleser]

25. I guess in the scenario listed they would be printing Drachmas like mad? I dont think folks rooting

for a GRExit really understand what that would mean.

A hyperinflationary catastrophe would likely follow in short order.

[Recursion]

53. It could be Euro-pegged IOUs, sort of like Brazil's transitional currency

The capital controls that would require would make importing nearly impossible, though, and Greece can't feed itself.

[Surya Gayatri]

57. Economics 101...

A hyperinflationary catastrophe would likely follow in short order.

[Depaysement]

11. The KKE has been inept

A crisis of this magnitude and it made few gains.

I assume you are right that Syriza is making contingency plans. Kotizias went to Israel last week and Tsipiras spoke to Jack Lew this morning. Lagarde and Hollande have been reticent recently. Tsipiras has also made overtures to the AIIB and Silk Road. Greece recently struck a trade deal with Russia. Given how the Greek Government caved I suspect Tsakalotos is trying to buy time with this new deal, so he can find other financing sources.

[AOR]

18. The KKE were the only ones telling the truth about Syriza...

and the referendum. Change will only come from the people and the workers and not electing "leftist" sell outs like Tsipiras and Syriza to speak for their demands. There is a lesson there for the American Left.

[Depaysement]

23. So change will never come

I respect your opinion but when I hear leftists say that it seems to me like they are Waiting for Godot. The Greek people are suffering more than any time since the Junta. If not now, when?

[AOR]

27. You say: "So change will never come"...

Why would you say this ? It is up to the people and the working class to make that change happen. It does not happen by merely voting. We have to know what we're fighting for and what were fighting against before we "do something" or "do anything." What is real and what isn't. Most real leftist analysis knew that Syriza and Tsipras were not truly the voice of any real meaningful change for the Greek people.

The KKE and many others have been rock solid in their analysis of the situation for some time and have made it clear that the answer lies with the people and the workers and not just voting for a magical savior to negotiate the terms of their slavery.


"Too long have the workers of the world waited for some Moses to lead them out of bondage. I would not lead you out if I could; for if you could be led out, you could be led back again. I would have you make up your minds there is nothing that you cannot do for yourselves."

--Eugene V. Debs

[Depaysement]

34. Who cares about a rock solid analysis . . .

. . . when people are suffering?

The KKE is not organizing or educating the people; it is ineffective even by the standards you are espousing.

If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years. - Lenin

[AOR]

36. Not exactly sure what you are trying to say on this Depaysement...

maybe expand a little on what you think is to be done and what would be useful tactics - besides voting - for the working class not only in Greece but here. I ask this because obviously I just joined and am not familiar with your political views or postings. It's hard to respond with more depth without a little more to go on.

Agitate for the demands of the working class on the net, on the street, and everywhere else. Organize around the demands of the working class. Resist any policy that puts the prerogatives of Capital first before Labor and the working class. That is the responsibility of leftists. Change does not come without struggle. Change does not come without demands. You can't force people to organize if they are not ready. You can't force people to take to the streets in mass demonstration if they are not ready or unwilling to take up those struggles. You can not force anything unless there is solidarity to bring about change.

[Depaysement]

38. Exactly

And much more. The KKE is not effectively doing any of these things. That's the point.

[AOR]

45. Well...not being on the ground there or involved...

It would be hard to pass judgement on the KKE efforts and the inner workings of the party. From everything I've read... the KKE are doing what they can to bring the message of worker solidarity and the need for organization on the ground to the forefront of the struggle. Like I said though...just don't know enough about their efforts to pass judgement.

[Depaysement]

48. Perhaps they wil be rewarded after all

Given this "deal" the KKE may be the only anti-austerity party left. The rest have sold their soul.

My knowledge comes from discussions with a few friends who live or travel there and online publications. It's not personal knowledge. My general impression is that they have not done enough.

[AOR]

62. Well again the KKE was spot on in calling it like it is...

Any "deal" would not be one that favored the workers and the oppressed. Any Grexit wouldn't be much help either as long as a ruling class of capital controls the rest of the people's destiny.

The problem for the KKE is... that being right doesn't help when you are marginalized by the very people you're trying to fight for and stand behind. Actual politics is about power and resources and who controls them. Better that power and control be in the hands of the working class than a ruling class who answers to capital and could care less about the workers and the exploited.

Many of us are starting to understand that there is no way out while a ruling class of parasites controls our destiny and our lives. Many are still not getting it and will be comfortable in that fatal embrace until it destroys them and everything they hold dear.

[Depaysement]

64. I may have a way out

Provide for the people. Start small with basics, food, clothing. Starving? Here is a loaf of bread and a gallon of milk, free. The People become grateful, the State intervenes because you're stealing their turf and now you have a conflict you can win, with the People on your side. Set up an alternate system, a nascent, provisional Government of the people. It's like missionary work but the heaven and earth is the here and now comrade, not some pie in the sky judgment day.

The problems with the KKE are the same with most leftist parties: they don't do, they argue; they don't act, they sulk; they talk about community and act in self-interest, splintering into 100 different leftist religions. Great for intellectual discourse, folly for the disposable working class, already alienated. If it isn't perfect, no need to try, just wait until perfection comes around the corner in a few hundred years. They don't live like or with the people but above and beyond them. The working class sees this charade and won't buy into another set of problems, better the devil they know than the devil they know plus this unknown they don't trust.

I know you are skeptical. So am I. But if there is no action then: what is to be done?

[AOR]

65. Not sure where you stand...

and not sure what you're getting at. There is no "left" to speak of in the United States. There are no "leftist parties" here that amount to squat. It's gone... marginalized, neutered, and destroyed. The unions have been sold out for crumbs and were destroyed. The dagger through the heart and the beginning of the end Taft-Hartley. The union leadership are tools of Capital. The CPUSA endorsed Barack Obama. The Democratic Party is not leftist and never has been if that's what you're getting at. It is what it is until it isn't. Do you understand what that means ?

What is to be done you ask ? Fight back as always. The fight back is just beginning again. Agitate, Organize, Resist. It won't happen overnight. "Burn it down now" is the cry of the Anarchists. I like the Anarchists but that's not gonna cut it as they will get their heads smashed in short order while accomplishing nothing as they always do. Occupy Wall Street ? Noble effort but of little use. Crushed in short order because of complete lack of concrete demands and lack of clarity in what they were actually fighting for. "Reforms now!!!"... "We think we don't like Capitalism but we might be able to reform it with no class struggle, no class analysis,and no fucking idea what we're doing !!!" Good luck with that. We may as well stick with the Democratic Party and hope for a savior if that's the plan.

The problem goes much deeper than a mere slogans of "we are the 99%", "eat the rich", holding a sign that says "I'm generally displeased with the current state of affairs", and "I want fairness now." Lets do something now is not a plan unless you know what your doing and what you're fighting for. Do we? To what actual result - throughout the history of capitalist relations (political, social, and economic) - have the "leftist reformers and regulators" of the capitalist power structure benefited the working class and the people AS A WHOLE ?

Leftist politics is not about lip-service and feel good platitudes that have no basis in objective reality when Capital dominates and controls all economic, political, and social relations. Maybe Sanders can change the narrative...I'm down with that...some of the things he proposes might have some organizational and class consciousness raising value from my view as a foundation... other leftists that I deeply respect disagree strongly and think Sanders is another in a long line of useful tools. Either way... Sanders is swimming against the tides of Capital and objective material reality if he thinks his or our demands will be met while the power structure remains beholden to a capitalist ruling class that OWNS all the power.

The responsibility of actual leftists is to point out the failure of Capitalism for the WHOLE of the working class and the people, to point out the oppressive relationship between Capital and Labor under the capitalist modes of production, to point out class struggle and bring class analysis to the table, to point out the property question and theft of the commons (who owns and controls what and why), and to deal in objective material reality and the facts on the ground for the WHOLE of the working class. Subjective and individual interpretations of social conditions and individual prescriptions of change are not leftist politics.

There are no feel-good half-measures that will accomplish anything of worth in the current system in the long run. Capitalism is wage-slavery and barely getting by living for millions. Work for the owners for peanuts or starve are the options for many. The Abolitionists didn't fight for better conditions for slaves. They fought to get rid of slavery period.

Capitalism can not "be made fair." That is not how it functions and that is objective material reality. "The Middle Class" is the bait and crumbs the capitalist ruling class throws us to keep us neutered and under the illusion that any gains and concessions won are our final destiny. The "Middle Class" is an illusion that CAN NEVER be a permanent state of prosperity that the working class - AS A WHOLE - can depend on. "Middle Class prosperity" was an aberration under the capitalist modes of production and a decomposing social structure that might never be attained again.

The foundational structures of capitalism are built on inequality, exploitation, and the institutionalized theft of labor. That is the reality we face. Workers of the world unite is not just a slogan. That is all there is. Without our labor nothing is possible. Nothing gets built. Nothing gets done. If the workers - in mass - cross their arms... the ruling classes are out of luck. Everything comes to a halt. Do you understand that ?

[Surya Gayatri]

59. Hey there, Depaysement...you probably still have me on 'ignore', but on the off-chance...

you might find this of interest:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026966813#post58

The Greek Civil War - 1946–1949. Today's Greeks (by 66.5%) want to stay in the EU and the Euro-zone

in order in part to avoid a replay of this catastrophic, calamitous fratricide. Millions of modern Greeks have very negative sentiments toward the KKE and its role in the bloody strife, having grown up on their elders' tales of the wholesale slaughter.

[Surya Gayatri]

58. The Greek Civil War - 1946–1949. Today's Greeks (by 66.5%) want to stay in the EU and the Euro-zone

in order in part to avoid a replay of this catastrophic, calamitous fratricide. Millions of modern Greeks have very negative sentiments toward the KKE and its role in the bloody strife, having grown up on their elders' tales of the wholesale slaughter.

In a 2008 Gallup poll, Greeks were asked "whether it was better that the right wing won the Civil War". 43% responded that it was better for Greece that the right wing won, 13% responded that it would have been better if the left had won, 20% responded "neither" and 24% did not respond. When asked "which side they would have supported had they lived in that era", 39% responded "neither side", 14% responded "the right wing", 23% "the left wing"; while 24% did not respond.

...

The Civil War left Greece in ruins, and in even greater economic distress than it had been following the end of German occupation. Additionally, it divided the Greek people for ensuing decades, with both sides vilifying their opponents. Thousands languished in prison for many years, or were sent into exile on the islands of Gyaros and Makronisos. Many others sought refuge in communist countries or emigrated to Australia, Germany, the USA, UK, Canada and elsewhere.

...

The Greek Civil War (Greek: ο Eμφύλιος [Πόλεμος], "the Civil War&quot was fought from 1946–49 between the Greek government army—backed by Great Britain and the United States—and the Democratic Army of Greece (DSE), the military branch of the Greek Communist Party (KKE), backed by Yugoslavia and Albania as well as Bulgaria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War#Post-war_division_and_reconciliation

[Betty Karlson]

49. The alternative in this case is the far right:

An unapologetically fascist neo-nazi party called Golden Dawn.

[JCMach1]

5. makes you wonder which German Bank put so fresh cash in Tsipras' Swiss bank account

just saying

[Nye Bevan]

12. So that thing about the referendum "no" vote strengthening Greece's negotiating position,

and ensuring a deal within 24 hours..... how did that work out?

It's almost like Tsipras has no idea at all about what the hell he is doing.

[PoliticAverse]

17. Unfortunately he choose a finance minister that wrote a book on game theory and not

someone who was an expert negotiator.

[booksandpencils]

63. Now don't be harsh

He said it might take 48 hours.

[freshwest]

13. Time for Greece to recite part of this document:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...

~ The American Declaration of Independence, July 4th, 1776.

Repeated until the end of time, around the globe. No matter the fallout that ensues, the ideal remains the same.

[FLPanhandle]

21. The EU wants that more than Greece

The rest of the EU would breathe a sigh of relief is Greece leaves.

Greece would suffer greatly in the short term though.

[hill2016]

31. Greece

is getting kicked out. not the other way around.

[freshwest]

40. It doesn't matter, this is what precipitated the Greek actions that brought it to a head. n/t

[bvar22]

14. Its NOT "Blackmail".

It IS "Extortion".
(just a minor pet peeve,
but confusing those two happens regularly)

[Nye Bevan]

19. So if my brother-in-law who already owes me a lot of money begs me for another loan,

and I tell him I am open to the idea but want him to try to get a better job and cut his living expenses first before I write him a check, I am extorting him, as opposed to blackmailing him?

[WillyT]

24. You And Your Brother-In-Law Are Two People...

And kitchen table checkbook policies have little bearing when talking about entire governments, with millions of people at stake.

If we had used kitchen table checkbook policies after the 2008 crash, we'd all be wearing sack-cloth... and many of us would be dead by now.

We learned this lesson in 1929... fixed it... had the biggest boom in prosperity the world had ever seen...

And then tossed most of it away.

And are reduced to kitchen table checkbook thinking.

[dumbcat]

28. So the identity of the people involved

changes the definitions of the words? The number of people involved changes the definitions of blackmail and extortion and negotiation?

[WillyT]

29. Yes... When You Put Entire Democracies And Their People At Risk... Yes...

And if we're gonna talk about failing to pay taxes... two words... Cayman Islands.

Or one word... Switzerland. There are many more...

How is it that the "monied" folk get away with not paying THEIR taxes, and yet we are supposed to follow the rules.

And when they come after the promises of our retirements, and tell us WE have to take a "haircut"...

Who will stand up against them???

Who will talk about the fake wars where we wasted BILLIONS of dollars and millions of lives.

Who will talk about the biggest socialist enterprise on the planet... the Military Industrial Complex, ie...

The Defense Dept. Military, Intelligence, etc.

All those wasted lives, and that wasted money, pales in comparison to Greece.

And yet we think THAT's Normal... As If NORMAL IS... "of course they are gonna rip us off."

And we just leave it at that and accept it. I DO NOT ACCEPT IT !!!

[dumbcat]

41. The Ministry of Truth

Ok, I get it.

[WillyT]

42. So Apparently...None Of That Means Anything To You...

Ok, I get it.

[dumbcat]

43. Of course it does. It means you will change the definitions of words

to meet your purposes.

That's OK, as long as everyone knows it.

Carry on.

[hill2016]

33. I think

there are some similarities though. Such as, people who lend money generally want their money back.

[starroute]

26. Here's a more appropriate analogy

Your brother-in-law owns a small store but isn't a very good manager, and the shop keeps losing money. You've bailed him out a couple of times but finally decide that you know what's best for his business and that you'll give him more money only if he follows your advice. That advice is to save money by reducing his orders of goods so he has less stock on the shelves and by cutting the salaries of his staff.

When to your surprise the store goes even deeper into the red than before, you become alarmed and start thinking only of how you can recoup your own previous payments. You tell him that he has to sign over the ownership of the building to you, sell off all the quaint old trappings that have helped bring in customers, and cut back on what he pays to his suppliers. He also has to agree to pay you a fixed sum every week from his receipts, even if that means he continues to lose money for the foreseeable future. And your wife will be in the store every day, not to help out but just to make sure he doesn't cheat on the agreement.

Is that getting closer?

[Nye Bevan]

30. Except that he doesn't "have" to do anything.

He is perfectly free to turn down my offer of a loan, and then he will not be bound by any of those conditions. Still "extortion"?

[Adrahil]

35. Many here think...

That we just need to keep the cash spigots open and everything will be OK. It's nuts. I don't support the heavy handed tactics of the creditors, but it would be nuts to shovel good money after bad without conditions, I think.

[hill2016]

32. sounds

like a normal debt for equity restructuring.

Very common in bankruptcy proceedings when the company is still an ongoing concern.

[PoliticAverse]

52. This would be the "in receivership" alternative. n/t

[Recursion]

54. It's called a "debt colony" and it's how Europe treated most of Africa and Asia for years

I have trouble seeing it happening to a NATO member, though.

[bvar22]

60. You may argue that with the OP in which the demands were called "blackmail".

If you go to your BiL and demand that he pay you plus interest by Friday or you will break his fingers,
now THAT is "Extortion".


"Blackmail" is when you know a secret about someone,
and threaten to expose the secret to the public if you are not paid a sum of money.....
that is "blackmail". I am not aware of anyone who is "blackmailing" the government of Greece.
I do read that plenty of Greeks feel like they are having their fingers threatened (metaphorically).

You CAN see the difference?
Yes?


No Charge.

[LanternWaste]

61. Intentionally confusing "extortion" and "coercion" for a better-sounding bumper sticker?

Intentionally confusing "extortion" and "coercion" for a better-sounding bumper sticker?

[WillyT]

22. THANK YOU !!!

[muriel_volestrangler]

47. It's quite close to the original meaning of 'blackmail'

Yes, the modern meaning of 'blackmail' is 'demand money, or you'll reveal secrets'; but the word originated in the Scottish-English borders, among the reivers, and there it was a matter of 'pay us money or we'll come and trash your farm', or at least let someone else trash your farm.

Indeed, the word ‘blackmail’ comes from the Reivers: a farmer paid ‘blackmail’ – rent in the form of cattle instead of the legal ‘whitemail’, which was paid in silver, to a powerful Reiver who would give him ‘protection’ in return.

http://reivers-route.co.uk/the-route/about-the-reivers-route/

Without the protection of the law, the ordinary people had no recourse but to pay the blackmail. Blackmail in reality meant black rent or a double rent. Rent was paid to the landowner and rent was paid to the blackmailer. Since it was paid in kind, in oats, barley or meal, it was called black meal. For payment of the black meal, the payer was supposed to be left alone and was to be protected against other reivers and if thefts occurred, his protector was supposed to retrieve his goods. Sometimes goods changed hands so much that one would think the thieves were in cahoots - which many were. If a person was too poor to pay the double rent, he could expect to have his cattle and goods stolen. A Scottish Act of 1567 made paying blackmail punishable by death. What choice would that be - pay and die or don’t pay and die. This Act was modified later to fines and imprisonment. The blackmailer was to be punished at the Warden’s discretion. It wasn’t until 1601 that blackmail was made a capital offense in England.

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/other/border_reivers9.htm

[dflprincess]

39. I thought this was an interesting view on Greece's debt & one not mentioned much

(at least in the U.S. media).

http://www.startribune.com/european-union-germany-s-debt-obsession-is-hypocrisy/313036681/

Germany failed to learn from its own history--and Greece is paying the price

As the minutes tick down before Sunday’s deadline for Greece to reach an agreement with its creditors or else face bankruptcy, the Greeks and their supporters are accusing Germany, their main creditor, of hypocrisy. After all, in 1953, Germany’s creditors forgave half that nation’s debt so that the fledgling republic could recover from the war Germany had inflicted on those creditors, and thrive economically.

But Germany, which now adamantly declares that adherence to the rules of debt repayment must trump all other considerations, can rightly claim that in at least one crucial instance, it was anything but a hypocrite. As the Great Depression descended on Germany in 1930, its government — a coalition of centrist parties headed by Chancellor Heinrich Brüning — insisted on balancing its budget in order to convince its creditors (the nations to whom it was paying economically ruinous reparations as compensation for World War I) that it was a responsible debtor. In the hope that the creditor nations would respond by eventually canceling those reparations, Brüning slashed social spending and investment. He trod the path of fiscal rectitude even as unemployment reached record heights — the same policy, under the same depression conditions, to which today’s chancellor, Angela Merkel, has demanded Greece adhere.

As the minutes tick down before Sunday’s deadline for Greece to reach an agreement with its creditors or else face bankruptcy, the Greeks and their supporters are accusing Germany, their main creditor, of hypocrisy. After all, in 1953, Germany’s creditors forgave half that nation’s debt so that the fledgling republic could recover from the war Germany had inflicted on those creditors, and thrive economically.

But Germany, which now adamantly declares that adherence to the rules of debt repayment must trump all other considerations, can rightly claim that in at least one crucial instance, it was anything but a hypocrite. As the Great Depression descended on Germany in 1930, its government — a coalition of centrist parties headed by Chancellor Heinrich Brüning — insisted on balancing its budget in order to convince its creditors (the nations to whom it was paying economically ruinous reparations as compensation for World War I) that it was a responsible debtor. In the hope that the creditor nations would respond by eventually canceling those reparations, Brüning slashed social spending and investment. He trod the path of fiscal rectitude even as unemployment reached record heights — the same policy, under the same depression conditions, to which today’s chancellor, Angela Merkel, has demanded Greece adhere....

...“Does democracy trump debt? Of course not,” Jochen Bittner, the political editor of the German weekly Die Zeit, wrote in a New York Times op-ed Tuesday, blissfully unconscious, it would seem, that such sentiments helped speed the Weimar Republic to its doom. Yet such sentiments have shaped German policy toward Greece since the beginning of the euro crisis. Worse, they have shaped the policy not only of the governing Christian Democrats but also increasingly of the opposition Social Democrats...

[joshcryer]

50. Tsipras must become a sacrificial lamb if Syriza is to survive.

And his top team.