A question about baking cakes, discrimination and the law. Help me out here.

[LynneSin]

ok first and foremost I understand the basics. If I run a business that provides services for the public, I cannot deny one class of people a service even though I will provide that same service to others. Saying I will not bake a cake for any gay couple is pretty much the modern day version of 'No Blacks served here'. And the reasoning bypehind this makes common sense. My bakery receives a variety of of government benefits and services including things like the roads to my business, police & Fire protection and other utilities. These are paid for by the taxpayers which includes those people whom some people would like to discriminate against - they pay taxes too.

This is where I still get foggy. I'll bake a cake for anyone, I'm fine with that. But I always see the supporters of cake discrimination toss in this question and I'm not a legal expert. What is the law? What if someone comes into my shop and wants to by that cake and wants to have me put a message on it like 'Happy Birthday Hitler' or 'God is Dead' or some other totally offensive message?

[Scootaloo]

1. Oregon has a no-discrimination law for businesses.

http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/659A.403

§ 659A.403¹
Discrimination in place of public accommodation prohibited
(1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, all persons within the jurisdiction of this state are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation, without any distinction, discrimination or restriction on account of race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, marital status or age if the individual is 18 years of age or older.
(2) Subsection (1) of this section does not prohibit:
(a) The enforcement of laws governing the consumption of alcoholic beverages by minors and the frequenting by minors of places of public accommodation where alcoholic beverages are served; or
(b) The offering of special rates or services to persons 50 years of age or older.
(3) It is an unlawful practice for any person to deny full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation in violation of this section. [Formerly 30.670; 2003 c.521 §1; 2005 c.131 §1; 2007 c.100 §5]

"Happy birthday hitler" does not fall under any of the protected classes. You really should know that without me havign to tell you.

[LynneSin]

3. Not a legal person

but I see these 'what if someone wanted a damn God is Dead cake' and honestly just want better understanding. And I like your excerpt

[treestar]

18. That's good

because the Hitler cake wouldn't fall into the protected classes.

The God is Dead cake could be claimed to be religious discrimination.

[COLGATE4]

2. So far as my understanding of the law goes,

Nazi supporters or other assorted Hitler fans are not a protected class. You can feel free not to bake your "Happy Birthday Hitler" cake without fear of legal repercussions.

[Nye Bevan]

4. The desire to wish Hitler a happy birthday

does not derive from your "race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, marital status or age".

[unblock]

5. i believe that you can discriminate against anyone, just not in particular protected classes.

i'm pretty sure you can discriminate against neo-nazis, for example.

there are only a few specific classes that are protected explicitly by federal law (and possibly some more by state/local law) those include race, religion, ethnicity, national origin, and gender.

anything else not on such a list (sexual orientation, in many places) is fair game for discrimination, whether in employment situations or in customer service.

legally, that is. it remains highly immoral and usually terrible business practice to discriminate on matters so irrelevant to actual business.

editted to clarify: refusing to hire someone because they're gay is an example of what i mean by irrelevant to actual business. discriminating against a customer who may go around saying the your cake shop loves hitler is quite relevant to actual business and refusing to serve that customer is good business in the long run.

[LynneSin]

6. Makes sense

what I need to do is stop reading these damn online discussion boards. ( well other than DU)

[Cal Carpenter]

7. You can't discriminate against people based on protected class status.

You can't refuse to serve someone based on religion/race/sexuality. (eta: some of this federal, some is state, so the specific classes may vary based on location, iirc)

However, you have a lot of discretion as far as services you provide, and you can even refuse to serve an individual for no good reason at all (as long it is not because of a class they are in that is protected).

If you were a racist bookstore clerk, you could refuse to carry in the store, or do a special order of a book on Malcolm X or MLK for a black customer, based on your 'beliefs'. (You could not, however, refuse to do any business with that person due to the color of his/her skin. You could not refuse to let that person buy something off the shelf for that reason).

You can refuse to put a swastika on a cake for a Nazi (not a protected class - this guy you can just kick outta the bakery for being a Nazi).

You can refuse to put a giant penis on a cake for a bachelorette party because it is against your personal standards.

You can refuse to bake a cake with sardine flavored frosting even if the customer would pay extra because you don't want it to make your business look bad.

You cannot be forced by law to do these things in your business.

As long as you are not discriminating against people based on a protected identity.

[LynneSin]

8. That third paragraph was good

about the racist bookstore owner. And it really was one of the clearest examples read.

[Cal Carpenter]

10. Glad I could help clarify! n/t

[Ex Lurker]

26. That still leaves a lot of room for uncertainty.

What if a baker agrees to provide a cake, but refuses to decorate it with a rainbow flag, as per the customer's request? Discrimination or not discrimination? What if a DJ agrees to provide entertainment for a reception, but refuses to play songs with overtly gay-affirming lyrics?

[Sam_Fields]

9. The right answer is to bake and make the cake they order.

There are people that claim that you don't have to bake the cake if it is for Nazi's, but that isn't true. The person ordering the cake may be German so they can claim you are discriminating against them because of national origin or race. If you run a business and someone wants to buy from you then sell them what they want. You selling them something is not an endorsement of their purchase or their ideas.
I once asked on a Christian board if I was a gas station attendant and a gay couple with just married on their windows pulled in to buy gas should I sell them the gasoline and they thought it was a silly question.

[Cal Carpenter]

11. Legally that's not true.

You don't have to put a swastika on a cake.

[Sam_Fields]

13. When I ordered the cake the baker said he doesn't serve Germans

Now the baker has to hire a lawyer to defend himself in court from a discrimination suit. See how that works?

[Cal Carpenter]

14. If the baker won't serve someone due to national origin, that is illegal

If the baker won't print a swastika on a cake, that is perfectly fine.

If the baker has a tray of cupcakes for sale on his counter, he can't refuse to sell them to a customer because they are German.

He can refuse to add a swastika decoration to them, regardless of the nationality or anything else of the customer.

See the difference? If not, read this:

So, no matter where you live, you cannot deny service to someone because of his or her race, color, religion, national origin or disability. In some states and cities, you also cannot discriminate against people because of their sexual orientation. If there is no state, federal or local law prohibiting discrimination in public accommodations against a particular group of people, then you can legally refuse to serve that group of people.
https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/the-right-to-refuse-service-can-a-business-refuse-service-to-someone-because-of-appearance

By the way, having lived in Germany for awhile, I find it really fucked up that you seem to be claiming that a swastika is a symbol of being German these days. What the hell, man?

[Sam_Fields]

15. LOL! I lived in Germany too

Have you ever managed a business? I have and people will lie all the time to get something especially when it comes to money. If I owned a bake shop and someone wanted a hammer and sickle or swastika on their cake I would do it because I really can't afford a lawyer to defend myself in a lawsuit. Like I said just because I bake a cake for a gay wedding or a cake with a political symbol on it doesn't mean I agree with the message. I'm just doing my job by serving my customers.

[Cal Carpenter]

19. I'm not sure what's funny.

Swastikas are banned in Germany. To equate that symbol with modern-day Germans is not only wrong, it is offensive.

Anyway, back to the thread's actual topic...

The question in the OP of this thread was about the discrimination laws and providing services.

There are very clear laws about discrimination in this country.

It isn't that complicated, and if someone tried to sue a business for discrimination because the business wouldn't put a swastika on something, the case would be promptly dismissed by the court.


Let's try again:

--You cannot discriminate against someone because they are German. That is their national origin, and that is a protected class. You cannot simply refuse to serve someone due to their national origin, religion, race, disability, and in some states their sexual orientation.

--You can refuse to put a swastika on a cake - legally, that is not discrimination. No business, small or large (but especially small) can be expected to provide every variation on a service they provide. Even Amazon cannot be expected to carry every single book that has ever been printed. No one can threaten to sue them for not having a certain item for sale. And all of this has nothing to do with discrimination.

If your customer service philosophy is that 'the customer is always right', regardless of any moral or logistical problems, then go ahead and run your business that way. Again, that has nothing to do with discrimination in a legal sense.

You may want to educate yourself on basic, straightforward laws before you try to run a business next time so you won't be scared into things you don't believe in by the threat of imaginary lawsuits.

Also, it sounds like your customers are a bunch of assholes. They lie all the time to try to get money out of you? What a shame. In my decades of working life - including owning and running a small business, I've never had that happen. You poor thing.

[Sam_Fields]

20. Go away.

[Cal Carpenter]

21. See, now *that's* funny

Sorry if logic and facts makes your head hurt.

And for the record, I have a feeling you'll go away from this place long before I do.

[uppityperson]

22. Seriously? How about instead say "thank you, I didn't understand that and now I do"?

"Thank you for taking the time to clarify it for me"

[LynneSin]

24. That would be a bit ironic since I am also German heritage

although my German roots are Pennsylvania Dutch and most left Germany well before the start of the two world wars so I really have little in common other than the Germany thing.

[backscatter712]

12. In Colorado, we have a law that protects LGBT+ people from discrimination.

Some states have those laws, some don't.

https://www.aclu.org/map/non-discrimination-laws-state-state-information-map

Federal case law, including Obergefell v. Hodges, makes it clear that governments, including state and local governments, cannot discriminate on sexual orientation.

Unfortunately, in many states, it is legal to discriminate in housing and employment against LGBT+ people, and it's not entirely clear whether the Civil Rights Act gives the LGBT+ community protected status that would mean federal law prohibits discrimination in public accommodations & such. Obergefell v. Hodges says "probably", but that may take several more years to wrangle out in the courts.

[avebury]

17. In addition, some states want to make it legal for companies

to use sexual orientation as grounds to fire an employee.

[avebury]

16. What got the bakery into trouble and the $135,000

in penalties was their decision to make pubic personal information on the same sex couple that resulted in them receiving death threats and harrassment. That was the damage that the same sex coupld suffered. They were not penalized for their religious beliefs but for the consequence of publicizing the couple's personal informtion, including their address y\thus endangering their lives.

[backscatter712]

23. Exactly. They doxxed the lesbian couple...

...and it resulted in them getting death threats, and almost resulted in them not being able to adopt their foster kids, because social services was thinking of taking the kids away to protect them from the death threats.

So yeah, I absolutely agree with the judge hitting the bakery with a six-figure judgment.

[The Straight Story]

25. Simple, you can always refuse personal messages.

Go and sign up for a personalized credit card, note the things they won't allow you put on it.

They still have to give you the card (if qualified) but they don't have to modify it the way you want it.

States can deny plates that say certain things, but still have to give you one for your car.

Etc and so on - the problem comes in when you deny the basic service (baking the cake) and not when you don't write on it.