Varoufakis: On the Euro Summit’s Statement on Greece: First thoughts

[GliderGuider]

From Varoufakis' blog:

On the Euro Summit’s Statement on Greece: First thoughts

• A New Versailles Treaty is haunting Europe – I used that expression back in the Spring of 2010 to describe the first Greek ‘bailout’ that was being prepared at that time. If that allegory was pertinent then it is, sadly, all too germane now.
  
  
• Back in 1971 Nick Kaldor, the noted Cambridge economist, had warned that forging monetary union before a political union was possible would lead not only to a failed monetary union but also to the deconstruction of the European political project. Later on, in 1999, German-British sociologist Ralf Dahrendorf also warned that economic and monetary union would split rather than unite Europe. All these years I hoped that they were wrong. Now, the powers that be in Brussels, in Berlin and in Frankfurt have conspired to prove them right.
  
  
• The Euro Summit statement of yesterday morning reads like a document committing to paper Greece’s Terms of Surrender. It is meant as a statement confirming that Greece acquiesces to becoming a vassal of the Eurogroup.
  
  
• The Euro Summit statement of yesterday morning has nothing to do with economics, nor with any concern for the type of reform agenda capable of lifting Greece out of its mire. It is purely and simply a manifestation of the politics of humiliation in action. Even if one loathes our government one must see that the Eurogroup’s list of demands represents a major departure from decency and reason.
  
  
• The Euro Summit statement of yesterday morning signalled a complete annulment of national sovereignty, without putting in its place a supra-national, pan-European, sovereign body politic. Europeans, even those who give not a damn for Greece, ought to beware.
  
  
• The recent Euro Summit is indeed nothing short of the culmination of a coup. In 1967 it was the tanks that foreign powers used to end Greek democracy. In my interview with Philip Adams, on ABC Radio National’s LNL, I claimed that in 2015 another coup was staged by foreign powers using, instead of tanks, Greece’s banks. Perhaps the main economic difference is that, whereas in 1967 Greece’s public property was not targeted, in 2015 the powers behind the coup demanded the handing over of all remaining public assets, so that they would be put into the servicing of our un-payble, unsustainable debt.

[DetlefK]

1. An unservicable, unpayable debt that the greek governments intentionally amassed!

Decades of corruption and economic mismanagement! What kind of treatment is Greece expecting? What steps has Syriza taken to end this irresponsible era? None!!!

Syriza does not want a new Greece: They want the same old Greece, getting rid of the consequences of their incompetence while keeping the incompetence in place.

[GliderGuider]

2. So Greek workers deserve to die? nt

[DetlefK]

6. OMG, that hyperbole is sooooooo cute.

Greece should stop painting itself as the victim. They fucked up and now they complain that the deal that saves their asses isn't good enough.

Here's what Syriza should have done:
1. Take the initiative and implement domestic reforms as you see fit before anybody demands that you implement reforms.
2. Badmouth the EU for not lending you a helping hand in solving the crisis.
3. The EU doesn't want to look like the bad guy here and gives you monetary help. Additional reforms are discussed as suggestions what Greece should do (because you obviously have a plan yourself), not as uncompromising demands what Greece must do under any and all circumstances to secure monetary help.

Syriza fucked it up with their grandstanding.

[GliderGuider]

8. Who is "Greece" in your view?

Are the 1% and the 99% the same people in Greece?

Greek workers are dying. They are dying of treatable injuries and diseases because of lack of medical care, and they are committing suicide in rising numbers.

This was from February:
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/02/04/greek-austerity-sparks-sharp-rise-in-suicides.html

[DetlefK]

15. And who created this problem in the very first place?

Who started this chain of events 20-30-40 years ago?

Greece? I regard Greece as a whole: The rulers, the ruled, the corporations, the culture...

Just because the consequences in the present are horrible and headline-taking, that DOES NOT give anyone a free pass to forget the chain of events that led to those consequences.

Focus! This isn't about some people committing suicide right here and right now! This is about the willfull actions of a whole country leading to these suicides!
Greek politicians enacted horrible economic policies, greek voters supported them, and then everything collapsed and the greek voters suffer. Greece isn't the innocent victim here!

THEIR COUNTRY, THEIR POLITICIANS, THEIR ELECTIONS, THEIR VOTES, THEIR DECISION TO SUPPORT A SYSTEM THEY KNOW TO BE CORRUPT, THEIR RESPONSIBILITY.

[jwirr]

26. I don't know if I agree with you or not but to put in another context: Are we all guilty because

a bunch of idiots elected raygun and his followers for the last 30+ years?

[DetlefK]

28. That depends: Did you at least try to change something for the better?

How could the greek voters not realize that something is off? Sure, their state-funded prosperity blinded them, but how does one go about his life for decades in a country where tax-evasion, corruption and cronyism are a part of the way-of-life AND NOT STOP TO THINK ABOUT IT?

"Wait a minute, if I evade taxes, and you evade taxes, and you evade taxes, and the company we work for evades taxes, what money is the state spending?"
"Well, somebody else is paying taxes! Duh. Please excuse me now, I have to cash this pension-check for my dead grand-mother."

To be part of such a system, you either had to be blind or willfully blind. And now their old sins are catching up to them.

[jwirr]

30. I hear what you are saying but I fail to see how this does not also discribe us. We had a 2+ wars

without paying for them. We bailed out banks that should have been held responsible and we still do not hold them accountable. We have huge corporations and individuals hiding their money in the Caymans in order to avoid taxes. Our congress is mostly bought and sold by the 1%.

Greece has been trying to elect different governments including the present one. And that is what we did but as you can see it did not work for either them or us.

Did the voters have any idea what was going on behind the scenes? Do we? I know that we have a big debt but I know very little about that debt or what we are doing about it. I suspect that the little guy in Greece was in the same position. Yet he gets to pay the cost.

I don't care what the EU and Germany do to the government and bankers of Greece. Just for once I would like the little guy left out of the blame. And austerity never punishes the ones who get the money - just the little guy.

[randome]

16. And things would have been much worse if they left the Euro.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]

[GliderGuider]

21. Things would have been much better if the troika had offered debt relief...

But they didn't, so here we are.

Lots of judgement in the room, but very little compassion.

[Igel]

25. And they may.

Sometimes compassion means taking a hard line. That's the way it is.

Right now Greece gets no sympathy because it's been both abusive, hostile, and deceptive. Now, without anything but a repeat of the words that in the mouths of others usually signifies repentance and a willingness to change, they want to be treated as though they'd been cooperative, friendly, and acted in good faith.

Thing is, to tell a liar he's a liar typically results in great offensive. "How dare you call me a liar?" To tell somebody who's abusive that he's abusive can get you seriously abused. Suddenly the topic isn't the dishonesty and deceit, it's not the abuse, but it's all about the offense taken (if not given). So let's have this guy get his way: Suspend all negotiations for a bail out and funding bank liquidity. Instead, for the next month the only thing they'll do is negotiate, for several hours a week, whether or not offensive is appropriate and, depending on that decision, who should apologize to whom.

Having then resolved the really important issue, they can get back to trivial thinks like bank solvency and whether, when Greece has shown a willingness to actually behave with honor instead of bloviate about its honor, attention can be given to structural reforms that show Greece is acting in good faith, and then serious discussions can be held about debt relief of some form.

[Ghost Dog]

31. "Syriza does not want a new Greece..." Fighting corruption, tax evasion etc. is a Syriza priority.

It was decided that negotiations with Eurozone EU had to absorb most of the new government's energies at first, though.

Type "Syriza corruption" into google. Please do your own research rather than blindly repeating corrupt MSM propaganda / frames / memes. Eg:



The same applies to Podemos and allies / potential allies in Spain, where I live, btw. Look it up.

[geek tragedy]

3. This poseur omits his own role in this fiasco.

The original offer was a lot more tolerable, but the Minister of Awesome thought it was a great idea to double-cross everyone--the Greek people and the other Eurozone members--while insulting the same people Greece was begging for a loan.

So, he destroys any trust the EU states might have had in Greece, pushes through a disastrously stupid and deeply cynical referendum, and then wonders how things got so bad.

Doesn't hold himself accountable at all. Self-promoting narcissist.

[GliderGuider]

4. At least he had some skin in the game. Did you? nt

[geek tragedy]

5. No, never been happier to be on this side

of the Atlantic.

[GliderGuider]

7. So how much do you actually know about the situation?

[geek tragedy]

9. Is there a quiz?

You ought not to assume ignorance on the part of everyone whose opinion you disfavor.

But, for starters I'll start with what should be common knowledge--that countries who join the EU and the Euro have already surrendered a great deal of their sovereignty.

[DetlefK]

12. And you surrendered a great deal of your sovereignty by being a citizen of a country.

That's what you get for joining a community: You are no longer free to shit into any bush you want.

You surrender your sovereignty by being member of a town.
Your town surrenders sovereignty by being member of state.
Your state surrenders sovereignty by being member of a nation.
Your nation surrenders sovereignty by being member of an international organization.

Mind blown already?

[DetlefK]

10. Waitwaitwait...

"At least he had some skin in the game. Did you?"

Are you suggesting that it's not okay to critizice the strategy of a gambler who risked too much and lost, just because some of the money he lost was his own money?

[GliderGuider]

11. No, I'm suggesting that unless you've been in someone else's shoes

(or at least have been directly affected by their actions) your criticism of their actions has no foundation.

[DetlefK]

13. Let's say, I'm a bloodthirsty dictator ruling a tiny country with an iron fist.

That means, only people who have been rulers of this country (or a similar one) are allowed to judge my actions?

Your reasoning gets weird.





Dude, I know what you are going through right now: You have lost an argument but you keep arguing and start saying ridiculous stuff you don't really believe and don't really mean because you just want to keep on arguing because stopping to argue means admitting that you lost. I have been there, too.

[GliderGuider]

14. If you were saying that the people he was ruling over deserved what they were getting

While sitting on your comfy sofa in your mum's basement in Podunk, I'd be be just this contemptuous.

It's not a question of losing an argument - it's a question of where your sympathies lie - with the people or with the pols, bureaucrats and bankers. My sympathies in this one are with the Greek people. I think Tsipras was in way over his head in a shark tank, and I also think that Juncker, Tusk, Dijsselbloem, Lagarde, Schauble, Merkel and that faceless Finn (?) are demons in human flesh.

Varoufakis, as far as I can tell, is the only one who has been at the table who is telling the unvarnished truth.

[DetlefK]

18. I am merely using your very argument to show how ridiculous it is.

One CAN judge the actions of somebody else WITHOUT having gone through the same. (With exceptions like extreme emotional stress, though I doubt and hope that this doesn't apply to political professionals like Varoufakis.)

[GliderGuider]

19. You're judging the wrong people, in that case. nt

[DetlefK]

22. I am judging the guy who fucked up critical negotiations with grandstanding.

That's what we are talking about and I don't have to be in his shoes to come to that conclusion.

[GliderGuider]

23. There were no negotiations. Ever.

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

And they said “No, no, no, this has to be a comprehensive review. Nothing will be implemented if you dare introduce any legislation. It will be considered unilateral action inimical to the process of reaching an agreement.” And then of course a few months later they would leak to the media that we had not reformed the country and that we were wasting time! And so… we were set up, in a sense, in an important sense.

It didn't really matter what the Greeks did or didn't do. they were behind the eight-ball from the beginning.

The whole responsibility for this humanitarian catastrophe rests with Merkel, Schnauble, Dijsselbloem, Juncker, Tusk, Blankfein and company.

You've bought the Troika's propaganda.

[DetlefK]

24. here are some other lines from that article:

[But] Schäuble was consistent throughout. His view was “I’m not discussing the programme – this was accepted by the previous government and we can’t possibly allow an election to change anything. Because we have elections all the time, there are 19 of us, if every time there was an election and something changed, the contracts between us wouldn’t mean anything.”

So at that point I had to get up and say “Well perhaps we should simply not hold elections anymore for indebted countries”, and there was no answer. The only interpretation I can give [of their view] is “Yes, that would be a good idea, but it would be difficult to do. So you either sign on the dotted line or you are out.”


That is not disregard for democracy. That is keeping your word.

-----------------------------------------------------

The EU keeping Greece from implementing partial reforms... that's interesting. But it clashes with a german politician complaining last week that Greece hasn't implemented reforms yet that were agreed upon in January. (-> with the old greek government)

Schäuble may have insisted on a comprehensive deal because he didn't trust Greece: Maybe he thought they would abandon the big picture once they had secured a partial way out.
I am german and I have seen Schäuble once during a public speech. He is no man who shows much of emotions. He's from the Southwest of Germany and this region has a culture that is laid-back and fiscally conservative. I think, the portrayal of him being evil is wrong, he's merely pragmatic and analytical. Being in politics for 30+ years does that to you. And he has held several ministerial positions through the years, which means he knows how to get shit done.

---------------------------------------------------

HL: Did you try working together with the governments of other indebted countries?

YV: The answer is no, and the reason is very simple: from the very beginning those particular countries made it abundantly clear that they were the most energetic enemies of our government, from the very beginning. And the reason of course was their greatest nightmare was our success: were we to succeed in negotiating a better deal for Greece, that would of course obliterate them politically, they would have to answer to their own people why they didn’t negotiate like we were doing.


Laughable. Pure propaganda.

[Igel]

27. So do you judge the Troika reps?

Have you walked in their shoes?

Have you lived the life Merkel has, been a politician in Germany, been in negotiations with Greece? Do you come from a former socialist country that was a basketcase, rising to the leader of the country that absorbed the basketcase and spent billions trying to bring it up to speed, restructuring, rebuilding, reinvigorating, and while that area is still not as prosperous as it should be forking over billions of euros to help others?

No? Perhaps they don't count as people then, whatever they look like.

It's a lopsided version of nihilism you have there, one that's very self-serving, denying everybody standing because there is no valid principle that can be invoked for judgment--while invoking the very same right for yourself as you sit in judgment.

Nihilism is really an all-or-nothing sort of game. In for a penny, in for a pound. Or in for a cent, in for a euro.

[GliderGuider]

29. I have walked in the shoes on both sides of the fence.

I've been rich, and have exhibited the kind of arrogant disregard for human feelings as the Troika has shown - especially when I had my opponent by the short and curlies. I've also been poor, and have experienced the arrogance and disdain of those who held my future in their hands. As a result, I feel quite comfortable in judging the Troika, as I have judged myself in the past.

It's not nihilism, it's called being in touch with my own humanity.

[Ghost Dog]

32. I like "demons in human flesh", thanks.

I understand that Varoufakis has said that he got on ok with Christine, others, on a human level. But then they adopt their "official" personas as representatives of "power" and become, indeed, "demonic".

[reorg]

17. from his interview with the New Statesman

where he describes the 'negotiation process' thusly:

And look there were absolutely no positions put forward on anything by them. So they would… let me give you an example. They would say we need all your data on the fiscal path on which Greek finds itself, we need all the data on state-owned enterprises. So we spent a lot of time trying to provide them with all the data and answering questionnaires and having countless meetings providing the data.

So that would be the first phase. The second phase was where they’d ask us what we intended to do on VAT. They would then reject our proposal but wouldn’t come up with a proposal of their own. And then, before we would get a chance to agree on VAT with them, they would shift to another issue, like privatisation. They would ask what we want to do about privatisation, we put something forward, they would reject it. Then they’d move onto another topic, like pensions, from there to product markets, from there to labour relations, from labour relations to all sorts of things right? So it was like a cat chasing its own tail.

We felt, the government felt, that we couldn’t discontinue the process. Look, my suggestion from the beginning was this: This is a country that has run aground, that ran aground a long time ago. … Surely we need to reform this country – we are in agreement on this. Because time is of the essence, and because during negotiations the central bank was squeezing liquidity [on Greek banks] in order pressurise us, in order to succumb, my constant proposal to the Troika was very simple: let us agree on three or four important reforms that we agree upon, like the tax system, like VAT, and let’s implement them immediately. And you relax the restrictions on liqiuidity from the ECB. You want a comprehensive agreement – let’s carry on negotiating – and in the meantime let us introduce these reforms in parliament by agreement between us and you.

And they said “No, no, no, this has to be a comprehensive review. Nothing will be implemented if you dare introduce any legislation. It will be considered unilateral action inimical to the process of reaching an agreement.” And then of course a few months later they would leak to the media that we had not reformed the country and that we were wasting time! And so… [chuckles] we were set up, in a sense, in an important sense.

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

[GliderGuider]

20. It was a Troika stitch-up from the word go. nt