This is why millennials will never grow up

[marmar]

(MarketWatch) Your grown-up children may never hit many of the milestones you’ve come to associate with adulthood — and you can blame their crushing student loan debt for that.

Fully 56% of millennials (compared with 43% of adults overall) with current or past student loans have delayed at least one major life event because of student loan debt, according to a survey of 1,000 adults released Wednesday by Bankrate.com. And a survey of 1,000 current and former students released last year by Citizens Bank came to similar conclusions: Roughly 90% of people ages 18 to 40 (most of this age group is made up of millennials) with student loans say that paying these loans has impacted their day-to-day life, including the achievement of some major life milestones.

Buying a home is the No. 1 thing millennials say they have put off thanks to their student loan debt. The Bankrate survey revealed that 30% of millennials (versus 22% of adults overall) say that student loans have made them delay buying a home. (Incidentally, home ownership for Americans under 35 hit an all-time low last year, according to the Housing Vacancy Survey, which began tracking this data in 1982).

Furthermore, an analysis unveiled last year by John Burns Real Estate Consulting hints at the same thing, concluding that, for people ages 20 to 39, student loan debt caused an 8% decline in home purchases, and that every $250 a month in student loan debt reduced purchasing power for a home by $44,000. And an analysis released this year by credit monitoring firm Equifax and the Federal Reserve Bank of New York declared that “while mortgage debt fell among 20-somethings both with and without student debt, it fell at a faster clip among those with student loans.” ................(more)

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-is-why-millennials-will-never-grow-up-2015-08-05

[Warren Stupidity]

1. The boomer generation has acquiesced to the screwage of their kids.

And I'm very much a boomer. Had we had the political will this could have been the Greening of America that back in the 70's seemed so possible. Instead half of us bought into the conservative counter revolution and we got Reagan and our kids got fucked.

[BeyondGeography]

3. You left out the Grrrrreatest Generation there

The youngest boomers were 16 years old when Reagan was first elected. Too many of them did swing right, but nothing percentage-wise compared to their older white parents. Kid-screwing didn't start with boomers.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. Well our parents ending up screwing their grandchildren.

We beefed that up a notch, plus while indeed the young edge of boomers were too young to vote for Reagan the first time, that doesn't get them off the hook for the subsequent 35 years of rightwing counter revolution.

[marions ghost]

18. Thank you

WWII generation gave us Reagan.

[jeff47]

24. Because 2 of 20 years would make a massive difference. (nt)

[BeyondGeography]

31. Boomers didn't give us Reagan n/t

[jeff47]

35. 90% of boomers were old enough to vote in 1980. (nt)

[BeyondGeography]

41. Carter ran even with voters aged 30 or less

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_coalition

[jeff47]

42. And running even wasn't good enough to keep Reagan out.

If it's any consolation to you, the older boomers tend to be liberal, while the younger boomers tend to be conservative. The "boomer contribution" to Reagan was mostly from the younger ones.

[BeyondGeography]

43. The numbers suggest otherwise

in 1980 at least. Reagan lost the 18-21 group 44-43; tied with 22-29 year-olds and won 30-44 year-olds by 17 points.

His biggest margins were with older, non-boomer voters.

Boomers didn't give us Reagan.

[jeff47]

44. Says the guy quoting statistics showing Reagan losing by 1, tied or winning by 17.

And who then doesn't bother to talk about who those same people voted for in every election after 1980.

Boomers were part of Reagan's coalition. Younger Boomers and older GenX now form the core of the teabaggers. You can either plug your ears and shout "NUH UH!!!", or you can work within reality and get things done.

[BeyondGeography]

45. So much condescension mixed with outright fail

It's been fun.

[virgogal]

30. You skipped a generation. There WAS one between Boomers and Greatest.

I'm one of them.

[BeyondGeography]

32. My father was born in '37

Talked to him today. He's reasonable until you get him on, "the blacks."

[ProfessorGAC]

58. Not Sure How To Fit This

My dad was not WWII. He was just an 8th grader when the war ended. But he voted Truman, Stevenson, Stevenson, Kennedy, Johnson, Humphrey, McGovern, Carter, the Reagan. WTF? The Reagan again, then 41, then Dole. (He was too sick to vote when Silverspoon ran.)

So, he's sort of tweener, but i think a lot of folks, my mom as well, went right with Reagan and they were greatest gen and they weren't boomers.

[BeyondGeography]

59. That's a toughie

My parents were a little younger, but in that tweener group, too. They went the more conventional route, ditching the Dems after LBJ. This was NYC during the white flight years. My Dad has stayed RW; he's a hardcore bagger now. My Mom came back post-Reagan. She's all-in for Sanders. Perhaps not surprisingly, there was a divorce along the way.

[ProfessorGAC]

60. Both of My Parents Are Dead

My mom, though, did see Obama get elected, and she wasn't upset because he was an Illinoisan. So, she was kind of all over the map in her later years.

[hifiguy]

68. My mom was a moderate Republican. Until Reagan.

Just one look at him and she voted Democratic for President the rest of her days. She was born in 1922.

She still voted for some Repubs because here in MN they didn't go completely nuts until liberal Republican Arne Carlson was elected back in the '90s. The jebus wheezers went full-batshit and chased out all the moderates and liberals at the point of pitchforks and torches, then invited the Ayn Rand Zombies in.

Carlson wound up endorsing Kerry in '04 and Obama in '08. Very publicly.

[Warren Stupidity]

66. Sure, but without a major shift in boomer voting from 72 -80 reagan doesn't get elected.

I'm not saying we did it on our own, I'm saying we betrayed the promises we made when we were young to make this world a better place, to be different, to not settle the way our parents had. I'm saying that with our demographic clout we could have voted in anything and anyone, we could have made the New Deal look like modest reform. But we didn't, did we?

So much potential so utterly squandered.

It isn't actually too late. We could still change the world.

[ProfessorGAC]

79. No Doubt

But, my dad was not a boomer. That's me and you. I never voted for Reagan. I think the generation before went big for Reagan. 20 Mule Team Borax and Bonzo and all that. Voted a familiar face and then all that.

I'm not sure the boomers were the group that tripped it. In 1980, almost everybody i knew, work, social, band, was a Carterite.

[PotatoChip]

84. Your parents would be considered part of the 'Silent Generation'.

Mine are too.

Why Is it Called the Silent Generation?
The Silent Generation refers to people who were born between 1925 and 1945. There are several theories as to where the label 'Silent Generation' originated. The children who grew up during this time worked very hard and kept quiet. It was commonly understood that children should be seen and not heard.

During this time, the House Committee on Un-American Activities launched an assault on political freedom in America. This, in conjunction with Senator Joseph McCarthy's overzealous attempts to feed anti-communist sentiment in America, made it dangerous for people to speak freely about their opinions and beliefs. They became cautious about where they went and whom they were seen with. Therefore, the people were effectively 'silenced.'

In 1951, a Time magazine article was written in which the children of the generation were described as unimaginative, withdrawn, unadventurous, and cautious. Time magazine used the name 'Silent Generation' to refer to these individuals. The name has been there ever since.
http://study.com/academy/lesson/the-silent-generation-definition-characteristics-facts.html

If I had more time, I'd search for a better article. This one is a bit too simplistic.

[ProfessorGAC]

85. That's Great

Thanks. This is a nice find. Still doesn't explain my dad going from Union dem to a reagnite at 49 years old. But, it's interesting to know someone has defined a tweener generation.

[abelenkpe]

76. Exactly. Nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. I don't think we acquiesced to it, we encouraged it.

We've pushed the idea that everyone has to go to college, knowing that not everyone will apply that education to gainful employment.

My son has an associate's degree at a low price community college. He has no college debt. He recently got married, and is now paying off his wife's student debt by selling door-to-door. The thing he's selling actually generates some pretty decent income, but it's still door-to-door sales. This (literally) pedestrian employment is providing the income to pay off college debt that his wife's high cost-of-entry, $16/hour job cannot.

[n2doc]

5. And we allow the pols to sell us the 'free tax breaks' fantasy

Let's face it, if state universities had been supported at the same level all along, we wouldn't be talking about huge student debts. It used to be possible to go to a great school and graduate with little or no debt, because the coasts were so low (and in some cases, back in the good old days, free). I went to a state school where tuition was $200-300 a semester in the 80's. That same school is 20x that now.

We also made it exceptionally easy to go into debt. Here, get your free money! We all know 18 year olds are all really great about planning along multi-decadal lines....

[Warren Stupidity]

10. hey we got ours fuck everyone else, amirite?

[n2doc]

14. That does seem to be the pattern n/t

[yeoman6987]

29. It helped that when costs were affordable very few went

The everyone needs a college degree was not necessary and lead to this mess. No everyone does not need college. Too late now, most jobs now require a degree because of the everyone needs college Marta.

[AngryAmish]

81. No. The high cost of college is the result of easy credit and careerist administrators.

The college accreditation societies make them add layers of administrators to keep accredidation. Student life is big. Athletics, politics, diversity and the new one is sustainability.

There is big money in administration. Salary and eventually a hefty pension, portable when you leave or in states luke Illinois you retire after 50, get a pension, take a job somewhere else and double dip.

But to prove you are a good administrator you need to build things, concrete things that look good on resumes. Buildings. Staff. Who looks better on paper, a gal who noticed the kids at their college were pretty normal, did a few intramural sports and ran a cheap department, or a gal who tried to solve various Crises On Campus, hired a bunch of staff, built a student life building etc. The second has a better resume. And the students don't notice the price due to easy credit.

[n2doc]

82. I disagree. Those things didn't help, but the big driver is the loss of inexpensive state schools

When you go from 80% state support to 10% or less, that changes things.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. I was being generous 'cause when I just outright declare us a generation of assholes

people get all sensitive and defensive.

[jeff47]

25. You're only half a generation of assholes.

Political alignment didn't line up with generation alignment.

The older half of Boomers tend to be liberal.
The younger half of Boomers tend to be conservative.
The older half of GenX tends to be conservative.
The younger half of GenX tends to be liberal.
The older half of Millennials tend to be liberal.
The younger half of Millennials are too young to have a pattern yet.

[RadiationTherapy]

70. Just making this stuff up or is there a rationale to your thinking?

[jeff47]

71. Well, here's a summary in convenient picture format from Pew.

[RadiationTherapy]

78. Thanks!

[Skittles]

34. agreed

anyone who voted for Reagan bought into the GREED IS GOOD garbage

[global1]

2. We Need A 2016 Candidate To Back Student Loan Forgiveness Or.....

some massive student loan relief - to get the millennials out from under these loans. This would be such a boost to the economy if the money that is being used to pay down these loans and the interest on these loans could be used to buy a home; furnish a home; start a family; buy a car; etc.

I know that Bernie is for free college education - but I wish he would take it a bit further and help out those that have already incurred these loans.

[marions ghost]

19. Dream on...

good idea, never happen.

[jeff47]

26. IIRC, he's also for student loan refinancing.

With a much lower interest rate.

[hifiguy]

69. Obscene student loan debt is just a part of

the "Greece For EVERYONE!!" plans of the plutocracy.

[gollygee]

83. Why forgive only a debt that affects mainly middle class people, while ignoring debt

that affects everyone? Why not medical debt or something?

I'd have a real problem with a candidate who wanted to forgive a debt that affects middle class people so much more than it affects poor people, while ignoring debt for poor people.

[2naSalit]

6. And then there are those of us mid-range boomers

who went back to school (some of us had to drop out of HS to survive when our pre-boomer parents got divorced... a major tabu that screwed us with socially unacceptable family issues) and ended up graduating in 2001 or soon after which screwed us royally when the world came to a screeching halt for over a year.

It's a never ending spiral of making sure that there is always an economic underclass even if it requires undoing everything that made this nation progressive so long ago. I'll probably never pay off my student loans as I am now entering my 60s, will probably work until my body gives up on me or I run out of food and shelter, whichever comes first... probably never live in a home of more than two rooms and paying rent etc. Probably never own anything of value beyond daily functioning for survival... not that I have any longing for vast wealth or dominance over other people and/or species but I would like to pursue some of my life-long desires before I'm toast. That is what will probably never happen.

[marions ghost]

20. Yes

ensuring an economic underclass and a nation of gleaners.

That IS their goal, and anyone who says that view is too cynical --may you see the Truth one day.

[Bohunk68]

49. "Ensuring an economic underclass and a nation of gleaners."

Thank you, marions ghost for that phrase. It caught my eye with its truth simply put. "A nation of gleaners." Yeah, I like that phrase.

[marions ghost]

61. Thanx

--that's how I feel fairly often. Like a gleaner. I seriously resent it, because it is robbing us of a sense of community, diminishing our quality of life, pitting us against each other over things like health plans and access to quality goods and services, keeping us preoccupied in the mundane and consumerist, reinforcing our sense that life is not on our terms, but on someone else's.

Deep down we know that we are owned (as in pwned) and we know for a fact that it is by design. We know that choices have been made in executive offices and boardrooms. Nobody likes to feel like a victim, so we continue to accept our lot. So we chafe at it, but what to do about it?

Glad to know that phrase resonates with others. Sometimes I get accused of being too cynical in putting things so bluntly but I can tell by the look on people's faces that I speak truth. These days if I am accused of exaggerating, I think, "touched a nerve..."

Thx for the soapbox opportunity

[jeff47]

27. GenX tried to get people to pay attention to that.

Unfortunately, there were not enough of us to get sufficient political attention.

[2naSalit]

47. It was aready too late by then

and we couldn't afford to pay for the attention.

[marions ghost]

62. No one generation is to blame and no one generation can fix it

--predation runs deep in humanity and in capitalism in general:


"We live in a society that allows one man to make $15 million a day while a low-income mother gets $4.50 a day for food, and much of Congress wants to cut the $4.50." From the article at

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/04/8_biggest_victims_of_americas_predatory_capitalism_partner/

Align with whoever is on your wave, no matter generation or short time frame any of us has on earth. Too much generational thinking is one of the tactics used to divide us.

Boomers can't save us, Gen X cant save us, Millennials cant save us. Not alone. Together however....

[phantom power]

7. Our fearless leaders need to make up their minds

They say we're all supposed to be disciplined and not get into debt, but then when people put off big spending events to try and keep themselves from getting further into debt, they tell us we need to do our patriotic consumer duty and go spend money to keep the economy grinding along.

you can't have it both ways.

[RKP5637]

53. Our fearless leaders grab onto any statement they can as most are riding along by the seat of their

pants. Reminds me of the failing corps. I worked in where the CEO was always spouting about how well we were really doing if only employees worked harder, were more productive, as the CEOs steered the titanic into an iceberg and it sank because they couldn't navigate and foresee the future.

PS: I am not speaking of Obama here, this, is a generalization looking back over decades. American workers have been screwed for decades as many say thank you. And usually many citizens have shit for brains as they vote.

[ileus]

8. If not for my DWs student loans we'd by a boat.

[seveneyes]

12. Student loans are not the problem, atrocious tuition fees and costs are the real problem

Education should not be so expensive.

[magical thyme]

21. easy access to student loans is what enabled tuition and fees to spiral out of sight

the 2 work together. You can't fix one without fixing the other.

[1939]

51. Yeah

The faculty should go back to being bachelors living in "faculty housing" little better than the dorms and eating in the student dining hall. They should donate all of their spare time to administrative "additional duties" so that the school doesn't have to hire so many administrators. I could cut the college budget to the bone. Yup, sure can.

[jberryhill]

52. As if faculty pay were the biggest component

As if a first-year undergrad would actually spot a full professor in the wild.

[1939]

55. Back in my college days (57-61)

Full professors did have to teach introductory courses AND perform unpaid administrative duties. Although my alma mater has grown from 950 students to 1500 students, the amount of floor space (and the paid positions occupying it) have multiplied twenty-fold.

I was student manager for track and cross-country. The coach received a very modest stipend in addition to his assistant professorship to coach cross country, indoor track, and outdoor track. The two assistant coaches (both faculty with full workloads) did it for "love of the game" as did I and my two student assistants. The "managers" did all of the ground crew work maintaining the indoor and outdoor track facilities for "love of the game".

[jberryhill]

56. That's not how it works now

Colleges and universities have changed quite a bit since 1961.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/7/71/559948/adjunct-professors-chicago-area-universities-see-union-representation

According to the American Association of University Professors, adjuncts now comprise 70 percent of the work force at American universities. However, nationally, they earn an average of $3,000 a course, so nearly one in four live below the poverty line or are enrolled in at least one public assistance program — such as food stamps or Medicaid — according to recent studies by the University of California, Berkeley’s Labor Center and the University of Minnesota.

http://www.salon.com/2014/09/21/professors_on_food_stamps_the_shocking_true_story_of_academia_in_2014/

Over three quarters of college professors are adjunct. Legally, adjunct positions are part-time, at-will employment. Universities pay adjunct professors by the course, anywhere between $1,000 to $5,000. So if a professor teaches three courses in both the fall and spring semesters at a rate of $3000 per course, they’ll make $18,000 dollars. The average full-time barista makes the same yearly wage. However, a full-time adjunct works more than 40 hours a week. They’re not paid for most of those hours.

[Cosmocat]

80. There you go ...

nm

[Oneironaut]

15. "Thats what they get for majoring in theater!1!!" Etc. Etc.

That's usually how these arguments go. People deserve to have insurmountable debt because they didn't major in Accounting or Finance, the only *real* jobs out there. Everyone else are Liberal hippies who went to bad schools or picked bad majors.

But nothing about how outrageous tuition costs are, and how most of that money goes to "administrative fees." Not at all...

[HughBeaumont]

50. Right, because banks and financial institutions NEVER lay people off . . .. .

Do people still not get that a college degree, even a Masters, doesn't take the target off your back?

[kiva]

16. I know the OP didn't write the headline,

so I will say that equating 'growing up' with buying a house is stupid. Millions of Americans rent for their entire lives for a variety of reasons...are they not grownup?

I know it's not the focus of the article but I am so tired of saying that people are not adult until they buy a house/get married/have children...end of rant.

[magical thyme]

22. they didn't equate home ownership with growing up. It's one of many milestones...

moving out of parent's house, getting married, starting a family are the other 3 big ones.

But buying a home was the #1 delayed issue in their survey.

[kiva]

38. I disagree with all three.

I never married, don't have kids; I did buy a house when I was 55, so by their standards I was not grownup for over five decades.

This is the same mindset that values traditional families over all else, and regards conformity as necessary to society.

[magical thyme]

39. well I never married and don't have kids either. I bought a condo at 32; replaced it with

a house at 50.

But I also recognize that I'm not the "norm." Since my 30s, I've pretty much been the only single, or one of just a few singles, wherever I've worked. The vast majority of people around me have been married or living together, and usually with children.

[kiva]

40. I understand I'm not the norm,

though more and more people are choosing to remain single; that doesn't, however, mean that I or anyone else who hasn't achieved those milestones are not adults. I know headlines like this are written as clickbait - after all, what parent of a millennial wouldn't cringe and click on it? - but I still grinch about them.

[PasadenaTrudy]

23. +1

I'm 51, didn't have kids, didn't buy a house. It's called being anti-conformist.

[smirkymonkey]

37. Hey Pasedena Trudy, in reference to your reply to another post of mine, I

am beginning to think we really are twins! Same age, no kids, no house. Never wanted kids, nor the burden of a mortgage however I am also one of those who is completely overwhelmed by student loan debt from grad school that I will never pay off due to the compounding interest. I can only pay the minimum IBR and even that's killing me.

[PasadenaTrudy]

46. Wow!

So interesting! Doppelgangers or something. So sorry to hear about your loans, major bummer. That damn interest! Part of why I didn't finish grad school, I was so afraid of loans. When I got my BA, I got grant money. Too bad grad programs don't have that option

[KamaAina]

17. This is very bad news for future voter turnout.

My electoral politics guru has informed us that all those milestones are closely correlated with voter turnout.

[jeff47]

28. Well, yeah. Why do you think turnout is so abysmal among GenX/Millennials?

One part is not hitting those milestones.

Another is a lack of candidates who give a damn about "the kids" not hitting those milestones.

[steve2470]

33. If the residential construction industry is raising hell about this, I sure don't ever hear about it

Are they ? If I was a home builder or even a realtor, I'd be pushing my national association to loudly raise hell about this. If they choose not to buy a home, that's fine, but they should at least have that option financially.

[ecstatic]

36. I must be missing something

At least as far as federal student loans are concerned. When I graduated, I owed about $20-24k. Over the years, I've been able to suspend payment whenever I wanted, without ever having to provide proof of hardship. Now I just pay the minimum through auto pay every month--approx. $70 or so. I've had zero problems buying a house and getting cars. On the other hand, if I took the approach of paying my student loan off ASAP, my quality of life probably would be affected. For now, however, I'll just pay the $70/month, possibly for the rest of my life, but I'm ok with that. Lol. I like to be comfortable and that involves revolving credit and keeping money in my pocket. I save as well, so I'm not completely irresponsible.

[2naSalit]

48. Many of us have not been able

to find steady employment, especially those of us over 45. I was 45 when I graduated... because I started college at 35 and went all the way through a master's degree... and all that from entering academia as a 9th grade dropout. I needed the loans or I would never have even been able to get through the first year, it was painfully tough, I worked all through college and still came out in financial trouble because 9/11 truncated all career options 30 days after getting that very costly hood wrapped around my neck. I know there are many graduates and attempted graduates in the same boat, and now there's age discrimination... if I could have had steady work, it could have made a dent in my loan debt but since finding and holding a job was impossible, I have had a hard time staying in good graces with the Dept. of Ed. I even went into default for a short time but was able to climb out of that and into acceptable standing but I can only seem to find seasonal employment, at least I can keep this shabby roof over my head and my '92 vintage vehicle running and paid for, that's about as far as it goes. And then there's the getting old factor where after having a physically demanding career my body can't maintain - why I went to college in the first place - there aren't a whole lot of jobs I can do anymore, that's all I have to say about that.

[ecstatic]

67. Thanks for sharing your experience. Are you

open to teaching at an online university? I was looking into that option but I don't have an advanced degree yet.

[2naSalit]

74. Perhaps...

I am unaware of any opportunities in that realm but it may be worth looking in to. Wonder what I would be suited for regarding teaching. My current job is kind of segmented into "education" but in a very informal context, I talk all day about stuff that I have to stay on top of but there is no homework or exams as it is also in a touristy kind of format... but I have to provide accurate and useful info.

I'd like to know more about it, not sure where to look and am currently swamped by the sheer volume of people and tasks until after summer is over.

[ecstatic]

75. Interesting. I saw a lot of information about it back when I was looking into it

Google something like: online adjunct faculty position

[2naSalit]

77. Thanks...

I'll check it out when I am of sound mind and body. My current job just sucks the life out of me and I have little left of value at the end of each shift other than reading a few posts while shoving some food down my neck and then passing out so I can get up and get 'er done the next day. In a couple months I'll have completed my tour of duty and be able to focus on my next employment adventure.

[A HERETIC I AM]

54. Out of curiosity, how much does it cost to learn how to weld?

Or to operate a 3 axis Knee Mill? (OK, a CNC mill, but I digress)

Of course a 4 year degree, mush less post-graduate study is becoming prohibitively expensive, but what the motherfuck ever happened to Shop Class? Why is it no 18 year old is interested in becoming a fabricator? Or a welder? Or a Plumber, for fucks sake?


Like him or not, I agree with Mike Rowe. We need more of a push toward the skilled trades in this country. There are openings for competent machinists, welders, mechanics, pipe-fitters, boilermakers and all the rest ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY that go unfilled because our education system (not to mention parents) is geared toward getting a 4 year degree in something that won't get your hands dirty.

Metal melts at the same temperatures in the USA as it does in Hong Kong. One of the reason I became a Truck Driver (an industry experiencing a severe driver shortage these days because it is having difficulty attracting young people to it) is because I realized I could do that job anywhere on the planet.

It seems to me that 4 year college degrees and higher are intentionally being priced out of the reach of most American families. Still, we need people who can take two lengths of copper tubing and join them in your backyard or basement, in such a way that it will last for 50 years. (among many, many other such skills)

[jberryhill]

57. The article refers "millenials" as if the only ones which count go to college

Most people don't go to college in the first place.

[shrike]

63. Our grandson was just accepted into the Pipefitters' apprentice program

All they asked for was a one-time, upfront program fee of $1,200. He used his high school graduation money to pay it. He's being paid to learn. He just got his first paycheck. $15 an hour as an apprentice. He's already talking about getting his own apartment. He's eighteen years old.

[A HERETIC I AM]

64. Good for him!

Excellent! May he have a long, enjoyable, interesting and fruitful career.

[shrike]

72. Thank you. He worked very hard for this. We're proud of him. n/t

[Go Vols]

65. My 26 year old has been in the Ironworkers Union

for 6 years,2 years non union before.They paid him to go to 4 years of school and now runs jobs making quite a bit of money,company truck,ect.


Good for your Grandson.

[shrike]

73. Tell your son I said to keep up the good work. n/t