General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWomb and Vagina Envy--a primary disease of the woman-hating gestational slavers
Womb and vagina envy
The feminist psychoanalyst Karen Horney (ca. 1938).
In feminist psychology, the terms womb envy and vagina envy denote the unexpressed anxiety that men may feel in natural envy of the biological functions of the female sex: (pregnancy, parturition, breast feeding) emotions which could impel their social subordination of women, and to drive themselves to succeed in perpetuating their names via material legacies.[clarification needed][1] Each term is analogous to the concept of female penis envy, derived from the theory of psychosexual development, presented in Freudian psychology; they address the gender role social dynamics underlying the "envy and fascination with the female breasts and lactation, with pregnancy and childbearing, and vagina envy [that] are clues and signs of transsexualism and to a femininity complex of men, which is defended against by psychological and sociocultural means".[2]
Womb envy denotes the envy men may feel towards a woman's primary role in nurturing and sustaining life. In coining the term, the Neo-Freudian psychiatrist Karen Horney (18851952) proposed that men experience womb envy more powerfully than women experience penis envy,[neutrality is disputed] because "men need to disparage women more than women need to disparage men."[3] As a psychoanalyst, Horney considered womb envy a cultural, psychosocial tendency, like the concept of penis envy, rather than an innate male psychological trait.[1]
Furthermore, in Eve's Seed: Biology, the Sexes, and the Course of History (2000), historian Robert S. McElvaine extended Horneys argument that womb envy is a powerful, elementary factor in the psychological insecurity suffered by many men. He coined the term non-menstrual syndrome (NMS), denoting a man's possible insecurity before the biologic and reproductive traits of woman; thus, womb envy may impel men to define their identities in opposition to women. Hence, men who are envious of women's reproductive traits insist that a "real man" must be "not-a-woman", thus they may seek to socially dominate women what they may or may not do in life as psychological compensation for what men cannot do biologically.[4]
Vagina envy denotes the envy males may feel towards females for having a vagina. In Psychoanalysis and Male Sexuality (1966), Hendrik Ruitenbeek relates vagina envy to mens desire to be able to give birth and to urinate (higher flow rate)[dubious discuss] and to masturbate in ways physically different from those available to men, and that such psychological envy might produce misogyny in neurotic men.[5] Moreover, in Vagina Envy in Men (1993), the physician Harold Tarpley elucidates the theoretic differences among the constructs of "vagina envy," "womb envy," "breast envy," and "parturition envy," emotions wherein men suffer envy "a grudging desire for another's excellence or advantage" of women's female biologic capabilities of pregnancy, parturition, breast feeding, and of the social-role freedom to physically nurture children.[
. . . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womb_and_vagina_envy
I was reading one of Amanda Marcottes recent posts over at Pandagon. Its about the misogynistic language used by the anti-choice movement, and this passage jumped out at me.
What they fail to understand is that life begins at conception is a misogynist statement. Its the erasure of a womans role in making new people, and a claim that the only effort that counts is the effort a man put into ejaculating. Abortion is horrifying because its a reminder that men do not actually make babies, but that women do through a 9 month process, and that if a woman chooses to interrupt that process, there will not be a baby. Which is pretty conclusive proof that men dont make babies. Which directly contradicts the misogynist belief that only men are capable of really doing jobs worth doing.
What Marcotte is describing here is the phenomenon that psychoanalyst Karen Horney (1885-1952) called womb envy. Basically, boys and men are jealous of women because women have the ability to go through pregnancy and nursing. Women can find fulfillment from creating new life and from enhancing their own lives through work outside the home. Since men cant give birth, they can only turn to the outside world for personal fulfillment. She believed that the womb envy that is experienced by males is the source of denying women equal rights, blaming women for the perceived downfall of society, and demonizing womens sexuality. Whatever your feelings about pregnancy, I think Horney makes a clearly pro-choice, pro-woman point. Life begins at conception is a way for anti-choice men to claim a piece of the womb they secretly covet by claiming sole responsibility for the creation of the next generation. I think Marcotte applies the concept of womb envy beautifully in the passage I quoted, even if she didnt mean to.
But what about anti-choice women? They have wombs, so do they experience womb envy too? I think so, but in a different way. On the subject of misogynistic women, Marcotte explains the benefits of hating your own gender, like moral superiority and being one step closer to being part of the powerful patriarchy. But to be a misogynistic woman, one has to sacrifice the ownership of ones own womb. Anti-choice women are caught between gaining a slice of the patriarchy pie and having control of their own reproduction. Ill give anti-choice women the benefit of the doubt and say that they havent been completely brainwashed and dont really like having more children than their bodies, minds, and budgets can handle. Most anti-choice women dont have as many children as the good Lord gives, and theyll explain away the dozens of kids they would have if they practiced what they preached by pushing abstinence. So, the womb envy that anti-choice women feel is directed toward feminist women who have managed to find social influence and personal fulfillment while feeling entitled to control their own wombs. How do we do it?
http://feministing.com/2009/01/24/taking_womb_envy_one_step_furt/
. . . . . .
Horney often criticized the work of Sigmund Freud. For instance, she opposed Freud's notion of penis envy, claiming that what Freud was really detecting was women's justified envy of men's power in the world. While penis envy might occur occasionally in neurotic women, she said, womb envy occurs just as much in men. Horney felt that men were envious of a woman's ability to bear children. The degree to which men are driven to succeed and to have their names live on, she said, is mere compensation for their inability to more directly extend themselves into the future by means of carrying, nurturing, and bearing children. She did not understand why psychologists found the need to place much emphasis on men's sexual apparatus. Furthermore, Horney desexualized Freud's oedipal complex, claiming that the clinging to one parent and jealousy of the other was simply the result of anxiety caused by a disturbance in the parent-child relationship.
In her personality theory, Horney reformulated Freudian thought and presented a holistic, humanistic perspective that emphasized cultural and social influences, human growth, and the achievement of self-actualization. Though she was often considered to be too outspoken, Horney often has the distinction of being the only woman whose theory is included in personality textbooks.
. . . . .
http://www2.webster.edu/~woolflm/horney.html
HFRN
(1,469 posts)self-promotional purposes. No better example, than Freud himself, a coke head who developed his theories based on observations of seriously mentally ill patients, then extrapolated and applied these (unsupported) theories across the entire more 'normal' population
I've never understood how the field of psychiatry ever got away with it (their fawning, unquestioning devotion to a quack), other than using their credentials to talk 'above' the layperson, and baffle them with BS
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)It makes a lot of sense to me, particularly the abortion bit about life beginning at conception. Without the gestation period inside a woman's body, no life can be created. It is not as simple as sperm meeting egg. The process is vastly more complex.
niyad
(113,343 posts)actual science and facts.
Freddie
(9,267 posts)In practice means that the split second there are more than 2 cells in a woman's uterus she ceases to be a fully-vested human being and is reduced to the status of a vessel.
My ex-boss was a fiercely anti-choice, devout Catholic woman. She could not conceive of the idea that pregnancy may not always be a completely joyous and wanted event. Except, after she had her 2nd child, she decided her family was complete and guilted her (non-Catholic) husband into getting a vasectomy. Therefore she never committed the sin of using contraception, not her fault her husband was (now) sterile!
niyad
(113,343 posts)and your boss was, to say the least, hypocritical, since the stance of the church is that NO contraception other than the rhythm method be used.
old joke: what do you call people who practice the rhythm method? answer: parents.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Women are capable of a lot more orgasms and a lot more enjoyment from sex than a man is- I've had many of my sexual partners express jealousy that they wish they could have as intense an experience during sex as women can with multiple orgasms and more intense orgasms.
That's the root of most of it, I think.
niyad
(113,343 posts)DirkGently
(12,151 posts)I remember studying Karen Horney's holistic approach to fictional characters, but don't remember this specific element.
Not too hard to see the threat to paternalism posed by the people who actually have the babies, though. So many attacks on women clearly orbit around resentment that men can't control the entire reproductive process, and therefore fear it.
Thus, the many ways a woman can be accused of "doing it wrong," whether it's being blamed for having too few babies, or too many, or (at least formerly) not enough boy babies, or not having the baby with the "right" man, or trying not to have a baby, or trying to have a job and also have a baby. So many rules to break, and crimes to commit, according to some.
It's almost like women once ruled the world with the power of womb, and men are terrified they will figure out how to take it back.
niyad
(113,343 posts)Orrex
(63,215 posts)That doesn't justify the bullshit that's dumped on women, of course, but if you take the long view, then some asshole with a gavel doesn't ultimiately wield all that much power after all...
Locrian
(4,522 posts)The ability to create life is pretty much the slam dunk of it. Yeah, I know - us males contribute a token amount
Interesting angle here: http://www.sibyllineorder.org/reviews/rev_b_chalice.htm
niyad
(113,343 posts)ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)And my unwavering commitment to reproductive freedom is rooted in a deep seated value that it's no one else's goddam business.
niyad
(113,343 posts)elias49
(4,259 posts)Never thought much of 'penis envy' either.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)elias49
(4,259 posts)One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)While I can relate to the Vagina/Uterus envy a female born with a penis experiences. Don't see that being a dynamic amongst the males born with a penis. From my experience most guys don't give it that much thought. Although perhaps it feels better to believe some grand motivation rather than just indifference.
niyad
(113,343 posts)to hundreds of pieces of legislation designed to strip women of their autonomy. it isn't indifference that has produced the rape culture.
One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)We (guys) are socialized to seek control and dominance over others. Be it on the Basketball Court or in our relationships. To me it seems simply about Control of anything and everything.
niyad
(113,343 posts)so many exhibit toward women.
One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)In my experience most guys don't feel it as hatred. However we were all taught to seek dominance/control as part of social conditioning. (Probably why we can't stop for directions) The result may be the same but the reasoning why in my experience isn't based upon an emotion but on the need to control and dominate.
niyad
(113,343 posts)elias49
(4,259 posts)daredtowork
(3,732 posts)There seems to be a bit of urge to overcome the need for women driving the sciences (which are largely staffed by men).
One particular phrase, which comes up so much that I've started to notice it, is the size of a women's pelvic bone limits the size of the human skull. That limits the size of the brain and human potential. However, technological enhancement such as artificial enhancements, pharmaceuticals, genetic modifications, and nanotech injections can change all that!
Very creepy stuff.
I wonder if it's an instinctive reaction to the idea hat "men are redundant"...? The race is on to make women redundant, too!