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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI'm seeing a lot of "I/we're your Ally" posts ...
Which raises to me a question ... Who gets to determine whether someone is an ally, or not?
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JustAnotherGen
(31,907 posts)This thread just might be epic. 
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)in its being avoided.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Exclusion is an error of extreme proportions. It's what the 1% does and none of us should be doing any such thing.
MLK would never turn down any help for the cause.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)you aren't my ally.
And stop holding out your misunderstood/reinterpreted picture of Dr. Martin Luther King out to me. I have told you before, I do not appreciate it.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Obviously.
I am an ally of BLM and MLK, and the cause.
You have obviously rejected my help and so you have excluded yourself.
My advice: keep doing that and you will never succeed in any endeavor.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Of course you are.
Could that be because your "Help" isn't addressing what I/we need addressed ... and your continued attempts to tell me otherwise ... have not convinced me. Which means to me, and the other folks you feel/find it necessary to keep telling that you are our/their "allies in the 'cause'", that you still aren't hearing what I/we am/are saying.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Go ahead and exclude yourself. However, that is a very weak position to undertake.
You, as an individual, are not that important. And your attempts to paint me as something or the other, are like water off a duck's back.
I have always supported the oppressed's causes and do not allow individuals such as yourself to divide me from them.
Bernie is the best real hope for change the American People have ever had.
Response to RobertEarl (Reply #40)
1StrongBlackMan This message was self-deleted by its author.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)I am willing to wager he is more successful than you credit him for. Pick your metric.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)On Sun Aug 9, 2015, 12:28 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
I am not YOUR ally
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7059890
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
tone deaf much?
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Aug 9, 2015, 01:08 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This is very personal and OTT.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm beginning to wonder who is tone deaf. As for hiding this -- no.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: seriously?
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The poster is completely tone deaf. I don't "hide" stupid, it is cumulative and speaks for itself and all those like minded Bernie supporters who also seem to fail to hear.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Matariki
(18,775 posts)what exactly, in detail, was the help you offered?
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Matariki
(18,775 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)In RL I do plenty. And I will campaign and vote for Bernie who will set the tone for more justice.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)economic injustice for everyone will benefit everyone and will eventually lead to racial/social equality. I reject that proposition ... and so did Dr. King, despite the revisions to his legacy.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:53 AM - Edit history (1)
that that poster, time and again, trots on his revisionist version of Dr. Martin Luther King's legacy. Each time he has, he gets called on it ... he'll disappear for a few days and spout the same revisionist lines. But I guess I should be happy ... he no longer quotes Dr. King's out of context words; he merely, invokes Dr. King's image ... So I guess he, somewhere down deep, recognizes that he is full of it.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)I stand on every comment I have ever made about the man and his dreams and wisdom, Again, you do not own him so you should stop acting as if MLK is yours and yours alone.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:55 AM - Edit history (1)
I don't claim to! I have, however studied his works .... Studies that include talking to folks closest to him during the time.
You, on the other hand , pick. and choose segments of his words, sans the preceding and antecedent words, merely to justify your cause.
To be clear ... Dr. King NEVER abandoned racial equality for universal economic equality.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Who are you to say such a thing? You don't know what I do and have done. Instead I think you may be looking in a mirror when spewing such as you've done.
doxyluv13
(247 posts)I lived thru the movement, so don't call this reinterpretation. But can you point out a time when King hijacked and disrupted a progressive event?
Where BLM falls short is simple. BLM has a general goal, and a lot of justified anger, but anger is not enough. King had a goal and a strategy that if successful would lead to that goal. In the unlikely event Martin took over the podium an an event like the Sanders rally, he would have had something to say. For at least the last month, with the anniversary of Michael Brown's murder, BLM has had the cultural spotlight on them, and just as happened at the rally, they had nothing to say--at least nothing that advanced the agenda of keeping black men from being killed by the police.
Dr. King had the work the such greats as Thurgood Marshall in his time at the NAACP to draw on for his Legislative wish list (a federal anti-lynching law being the part most applicable ) but BLM either doesn't have an tangible agenda (how 'bout a law making homicide under the color of law a Federal crime?), or has several. One of their agendas may be as much or more to radicalize PoC than to pressure the system to end the oppression. That would me more like Eldridge Cleaver, Huey Newton and the Black Power movement which largely rejected Liberal allies.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)to cast Dr. King's legacy as a battle for universal economic equality, conflicts with the entirety of his life's work.
Please revisit Letter from Birmingham Jail ... where he addressed white liberals (ministers) that were luke warm to the civil rights movement.
I completely agree; but, that "goal" was NOT universal economic primacy.
I completely agree.
Positrons
(53 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I have no decision regarding what issues others work on; but, I absolutely have a decision as to who are/are not my allies.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)but never actually dig in and do some actual work.
Smells a lot of pontification and boastfulness.
you lecture him about MLK? 
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)on the regular. And when I post the full text of the quote ... showing that Dr. King was NOT talking., primarily, about "bringing down the oligarchy"; but rather, establishing intra-class economic equality ... he disappears, only to re-appear citing Dr. King ... without the quotation.
Kali
(55,025 posts)or some such nonsense, so take it all with a large chunk of salt 
zappaman
(20,606 posts)HUGE chunk of salt with this one.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)
The guy once went on DI and named himself one of several of the greatest DUers.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)
JustAnotherGen
(31,907 posts)He cracks me up when he does that. 
As MLK said - I can't wait to see Jurassic World this summer!
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,907 posts)Tweet it onto #blacktwitter and #blacklivesmatter
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)
yuiyoshida
(41,864 posts)
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Damn right ... especially when you "quote" is completely without an understanding of the context of the quote.
And NO ... Dr. Martin Luther King never shifted his focus to "fighting the oligarchy" for universal economic justice.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)is both cheap and quite transparent. Someone who insists only their (possibly quite erroneous) interpretation of things matters, isn't likely to be a good "ally" to anyone but themselves.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)of their activities to agree with that statement.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)funny. and so very spot on.
Number23
(24,544 posts)
mercuryblues
(14,543 posts)it is followed by, "but you're doing it wrong" if you don't do it the way I want, you have lost me as an ally.
Which tells me that if they were a real ally they would at least make an attempt at understanding the issue at hand.
cali
(114,904 posts)mercuryblues
(14,543 posts)Tipperary
(6,930 posts)that x, y, or z is their ally. If that person disagrees, well then there it is.
That being said, I do not think that those two women at the event yesterday were anybody's allies. They did a lot of damage to their cause (if BLM is indeed their cause) and I think they have damaged the Democratic candidate process in this way. I have watched the video (thank you to all who sent it to me) again and again and each time it simply makes me cringe. I do not know if those women simply wanted to be on TV or on stage or what, but they simply looked foolish. As I said in another thread, they embarrassed me as a female. No one takes that sort of nonsense seriously. Would Michelle Obama act that way? No, she would not. I am fairly certain that she would have told her two intelligent daughters never to act in that manner either, just as my mother told me never to scream at people. Because they will not hear what you are saying for the screaming.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)In my humble opinion, there is a place for all types of activism. Women didn't achieve the right to vote in this country by being "Lady Like". The chained themselves to doorways, screamed at the top of their lungs, marched in the streets in outfits that were considered indecent at the time.
I'll bet that if Michelle Obama weren't the wife of the POTUS, if she had a son who was murdered by a police officer who never answered for his crime, she would be out screaming louder than anyone.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)candidate was never an ally. In fact, never a decent human being, I'd argue.
I've encountered a similar moral code with people here on DU over abortion rights. See, they *were* my ally until I got kinda bitchy with them on the internet.
cali
(114,904 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)The end.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)And speaking of assholes, that's who took over the event in Seattle yesterday.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)We're not going to stop just because of some self-righteous twits in BLM.
We'll continue to fight for justice, not because of BLM, but in spite of them.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)This place is crazy. I would be willing to bet that 99% of the people at DU support social/racial justice. It's like the people here are just begging for a fight amongst ourselves. Unreal.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)That may be, but we all have our blind spots, due to lacking certain perspectives or life experiences. It's the folks who angrily insist that they know everything about something they've never directly experienced - in this case, white folks, and systemic racism - that are the problem IMO.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)I'm not sure I've ever been more ashamed of DU than I've been in the last day or so. And I'm reminded of exactly the reason why I very rarely ever visit or post here anymore.
People on here are willing to say almost anything to quiet the doubt in their minds that the BLM protesters might have had a point. They may not have been the most elegant in delivering it. But since when has political revolution been elegant?
The BLM protesters clearly struck a nerve. And they unwittingly helped reveal the paranoia and persecution complexes of so many on this site. For Clinton supporters, this is apparently an indication that Sanders is a failed politician. For Sanders supporters, this is clearly a hit job by Clinton provocateurs. All the while, both sides miss the fucking point. They failed to hear the message of the BLM protesters. And all they give a shit about is their precious political candidates. They've demonstrated exactly why those protesters got onto the stage.
We don't care about the plight of racial minorities. Or, we only care about their plight insofar that they remain silent and let us speak for them. God forbid a person of color decides to take some action and challenge the complacency of the progressive movement.
We have people begging to be heard about how their brothers and sisters are being murdered in the streets and we respond by telling them to sit down and shut up; there's an election to win.
It's fucking despicable.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Almost exactly the same treatment gay people agitating for their rights, tended to receive from the Dem Party till quite recently. It's like people want to support and further social change, in theory, but the actual process is just too messy and inconvenient.
Number23
(24,544 posts)THAT right there, is the heart of the matter.
Because all I've been seeing lately is thread after thread from white and non-black people criticizing the group's tactics and who scream at every single black person who says to them "I don't know any black person who agrees with your comments about #BLM." They immediately get the "Who appointed you the spokesperson for all black people??!" inanity.
But these SAME PEOPLE will then clap like seals when a white person or a non-black person SPEAKS FOR US and denounces #BLM's tactics allegedly on our behalf. I've also seen people here with a WELL DOCUMENTED history of attacks on black DUers and the black community suddenly giving advice and chiming in as if they have any business in this conversation at all. They have no consistency and even less shame.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Is just someone acting like an ass.
Quayblue
(1,045 posts)in conjunction with being an avid observer. And no shark intended:
Why are these topics not addressed more here on DU??
It strikes me that there has to be separate forums to address these "specialized" issues.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)D.U. inspired me to write my capstone thesis prospectus on holding unelected agents of the state - in particular, policemen - accountable to the social contract. It was a piece of political theory that examined the literature on government accountability that sprang up from new Latin American democracies as well as the writings of Locke, Hobbes, Foucault, and Bentham exploring what they would have to say about accountability in the 21st century. This place, from its coverage of Michael Brown and the coverage of the murder of Walter Scott, was absolutely inspirational in my decision to take up that issue.
So I think we are talking about it. It's just that we are in campaign mode now and that seems to be the most live and evolving issue of the day.
But, yes, we can always do a better and more thorough job of it.
http://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000003615939/video-shows-fatal-police-shooting.html
Quayblue
(1,045 posts)Younger brains are more malleable, and your effort will stay on my mind. I'm jumping back into grad school next year and I think reading here will catalyze my effort.
geek tragedy mentioned that post-secondary education has a lot to do with how we perceive the world and its movements, particularly the United States.
I'd like to see more of your thoughts on American policing, with you being an old dude. I think DU has potential in pulling out depth of thought and evaluating social issues on a macro level...probably why I hang around despite being annoyed. And I think DU can address these issues better than we have been.
hope you're gonna keep going.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)The only logical conclusion is that these folks never cared all that much to begin with.
cali
(114,904 posts)And anyone who calls Sanders or for that matter, HRC a white supremacist is an asshole. Anyone who supports the demand that Bernie, a Jewish man who lost most Osama his paternal family to the Holocaust, bow down, is a sick hater.
kacekwl
(7,022 posts)just because you disagree with a group or the tactics used.Why is it always all or nothing?
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)I don't think that's fair to assume. Going around calling people white supremacists isn't exactly going to induce people to want to work with them.
But that isn't to say that the Sanders campaign isn't working toward the actual goal of equality in the U.S. Choosing to not work with assholes doesn't mean you aren't working toward the same underlying goal.
The specific members who led this disruption don't have a monopoly on supporting ensuring equal rights, reducing/eliminating unnecessary police violence against/killing of black men. Even the black lives matter movement overall doesn't have a monopoly on that. They represent a voice, a position on the matter, but so does Sanders. He clearly represents a more economic approach than black lives matter, but he's not not supporting blocking minorities from voting, he's not championing the rights of cops to shoot black men.
I don't see how interrupting a Sanders event works toward the professed goal of ensuring that black lives matter. Regardless of the Sanders' campaign not getting support among minority voters as a whole, it's silly to claim that Sanders is somehow part of the problem. If they want to go protest somebody who has actively worked against black lives, go protest Republicans like Jeb Bush who actively worked to disenfranchise minority voters. Go protest Rand Paul who used to have the "southern avenger" as a senior campaign aide and thinks that the Civil Rights Act ought to be repealed. Go protest Donald Trump who has had a couple of campaign staff have to step down after it was found they repeatedly posted racist crap.
Don't go tell the crowd supporting the Jewish guy that they are white supremacists and think that there's not going to be some push back. White supremacists generally don't get along real well with Jewish people.
Was going to essentially write that same post.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)Of several people insulting an entire city as white supremacists stupid and counterproductive equating to abandoning the cause of social justice?
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Allies works toward the same goals. Each ally treats the other with respect or the alliance falls apart. Allies do not attack one another nor demand blind obedience, like Bush demanded of Britain. Bush's tactics alienated his allies because he treated them like vassals rather than equals.
That is how alliances work.
sub.theory
(652 posts)If I have to be the "correct" skin color to be an ally of BLM, then I don't want anything to do with them anyway. I'm sort of shocked that anyone is defending that idea.
I thought BLM was about Americans coming together to end police abuse and discrimination (especially against black men). That I unequivocally support. If we are going to get into some bullshit about skin color determining your worthiness of belonging to that movement then we need a new movement to address police abuse and discrimination that isn't tied to racist ideology.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Last edited Sun Aug 9, 2015, 03:40 PM - Edit history (1)
not what white liberals tell themselves, and each other, what Black are saying.
It is not BLM or Black people talking about "skin color", even with the white supremacist talk.
Wait ... you do understand that we, both Black and white folks live within a white supremacist system ... and that taking down the oligarchs does not change that ... Right?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Is an interesting point, that brings to mind two questions:
1) Was the bush regime able, or even willing, to hear that his allies felt treated as vassals, rather than equals?
2) Are those insisting and calling themselves "allies", able, or even willing, to hear that those they are talking at, are feeling that they are being treated as vassals, rather than equals?
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)No idea. He was oblivious to the many pitfalls of his tactics.
Let's talk about this concept of "talking at" .
Yesterday a group of liberal voters came to hear Bernie in my city. He was rushed on stage by two BLM activists. They shouted him down, not allowing him to speak. As his guest tried to announce that Bernie would graciously yield his speaking time to BLM, they shouted in his face, jumping all over him and making physical contact. Then they proceeded to call white liberal Seattleites adherents of "white supremacist" liberalism.
That is not an alliance, it's abusive, immature, rude name calling.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)though, I can imagine the discomfort of recognizing the same obliviousness.
Do you agree we, both Black and white, live in a white supremacist system? And, if so ... would you not consider a position that subordinates racial justice to universal economic justice, supportive of that white supremacist system?
Though/and, I will credit Bernie for, post-NRN, changing his language ... seemingly to recognize the disconnect.
Again, it is YOU that is calling this an alliance, not BLM, nor Black people, in general.
sub.theory
(652 posts)Feeling that one is somehow a vassal doesn't make it so. Feelings are fickle, and ultimately proof of nothing other than that's how you feel. An alliance, as well described above, is based on fact. It is shared goals.
How is Bernie anything but an ally of BLM? He unquestionably supports the movement's goals of a more just society in which all people are treated equally and where police serve the public with honor and are rewarded with trust. What possible evidence is there otherwise?
Unless, of course, that isn't the goal and there is something rotten at work. I think these protestors at the rally just had an axe to grind. They aren't interested in anything productive, but just want to act out and bask in being the self-declared righteous ones. Fortunately, I think they are a tiny group of immature, obnoxious assholes and not representative of the larger BLM movement. I think. But the defense that they are getting in some corners is disturbing.
Bernie Sanders is a white supremacist? I'm sorry, but is just indefensible. No feelings justify that sort of vicious slander of a good man.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)That is quite one-sided and self-serving.
This is a relatively later development/evolution ... Prior to NRN, he spoke of the more just society in terms of merely economic equality, i.e., "Yes, of course, Black people getting shot is a travesty! Let's talk about Black youth unemployment."
I can understand that ... but please understand the that language is born in the frustration of watching good liberals overlook the white supremacist system we live in. IOWs, if you are not a part of the solution of bringing down white supremacy; then, you are a part of the white supremacy problem.
Syzygy321
(583 posts)your assessment.
Any group is made of individuals who have different ideas and opinions. They may have the same goals but fall out over details.
Example:
At DU we all have the same goals: Peace on earth, equality for all, a dem in the WH, etc.
So we are all allies.
And yet.
Spazito
(50,484 posts)what does an "ally" do? Do they stand shoulder to shoulder with those they say they are "allies" of or merely mouth platitudes while completely missing the issues of those with whom they purport to be "allies"?
Evergreen Emerald
(13,070 posts)Defined: www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ally:
To join (yourself) with another person, group, etc., in order to get or give support.
Also: to unite or form a connection or relation between : associate <allied himself with a wealthy family by marriage.
Also: intransitive verb to form or enter into an alliance <two factions allying with each other>
One example the dictionary gave is: "She's allied herself with the moderates on this issue."
So, on one hand it seems that it must be mutual. "Join," "Unite" sounds as if there must be agreement to be an ally.
I can align my views to the views of the ACLU. My views are aligned. I support them. Does that make me an ally? Or must I literally "join" a group?
Bernie Sanders is an independent. But he has aligned himself with the democrats. Must the democrats accept him in order to make him an ally? Or are his vocalized beliefs and actions sufficient to show he is an ally?
I believe that I am an ally of BLM. I believe in the political statements and goals and values. But, I disagree with the behavior they showed on Bernie's stage. I am aligned with the views but not some of the actions.
billymayshere
(94 posts)your ally "liberal white supremacists". I find it strange that there hasn't been a whole lot of condemnation from some of our "allies" here on DU over the BLM using this sort of language.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and his supporters telling BLM they are allies?
And for that matter, are you may ally because you tell me we are allies ... because that seems awfully one sided.
billymayshere
(94 posts)No, BLM has never stated that they're allied with the Sanders campaign. I think that alliance was implied to the BLM because of Sanders civil rights track record and white liberals support of the movement. Now, after calling Sanders and his supporters "White supremacist liberals" does this mean that they're the enemy? Since i personally haven't seen you condemn this language should consider the same of you? I really enjoy your racially charged posts. You're becoming perilously close to my ignore list because of it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)If one is unwilling to take on racial injustice, separate and apart from economic injustice, I wouldn't call them an enemy, but I wouldn't call them an ally in my racial justice fight.
That is your choice ... But then, don't call me your ally, or question why I don't consider you me ally.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)I'm not going to give up on fighting police terror against black people because somebody doesn't consider me an "ally". And if they don't want my immediate support, so be it, I won't be there. As another poster stated, there are other organizations and other ways to fight for your goal.
I'd go so far as to support the NOI if they gained a majority of black folks to the idea of a separate theocratic petit bourgeois nation under Sharia law. I wouldn't think it would work over the long term because it was capitalist and the other forms of oppression would continue so that you would still have a ruling class and an oppressed class, but if that's what a majority of black folk want, then I would support it.
I work for my own class ends and don't tail after the latest trends. A MAJOR part of my class ends right now is in stopping police oppression and violence in toto, but especially when it's part of a centuries long pattern of special exploitation against black people. That's what I'm going to do. If you consider that worthy of considering me an "ally", then I'll do my best to be a good ally, but if my color is wrong to be your ally, then so be it. It won't change what I do.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)It has NOTHING to do with your, or anyone else's, skin color ... it has, everything, to do with your willingness to fight along side of me, on the issues we share concern ... and recognizing (and respecting) that YOUR primary issue, might well NOT be my primary issue.
I think the whole Bernie/BLM ally and DU ally fight is based in a failure of the latter clause.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)like Sanders endorses is that it doesn't take special exploitation and special oppression into anywhere NEAR enough account. Marxists have talked about this very issue since the beginning. After all, Karl himself corresponded with Lincoln on this very subject. So while being primarily against class exploitation, Marxists do recognize the concept of state sanctioned oppression of a specific class of ethnicity, whether it be blacks in the USA or Jews in Russia in 1917. This recognition is part of the DNA of Marxism.
As to your specific example, even if no one else shares my other concerns, I would still fight against black oppression and police terror against black people because it's what Marxists do. As I said, you can't claim to be a Marxist if you DON'T recognize fight against special oppression. But just because I'm going to share your concerns about police terror that doesn't mean that I'm going to stop advocating for the remedy that would get to the base of that oppression and that remedy is the overthrow of capitalism and a socialist state. At that point it's up to you as to whether to consider me an ally or not. I'm going to do what I do, advocate for an end to ALL oppression by the capitalist state by getting rid of it.
daleo
(21,317 posts)And there has to be mutual, reciprocal advantage. If those conditions aren't met, alliances, formal or informal, don't last. The lack of an alliance doesn't't have to be antipathy, though. It can just be a wary neutrality, but one open to closer relations. That is classic game theory, and it seems to be how human beings are genetically wired.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Alliances can form for any number of reasons and be either formal or informal. The alliance doesn't even have to be acknowledged. There does not have to be mutual or reciprocal advantage, just each side working toward a common objective is enough to become de facto allies.
daleo
(21,317 posts)I agree that alliances don't have to be formal or down on paper. In day to day life, most aren't. But I do think there has to be some sort of mutual advantage and the cooperation that naturally flows from that. Otherwise, it is just two groups working independently towards a goal that they happen to have in common.
For example, a convoy is a temporary alliance, where a group of vehicles or ships cooperate to mutual advantage. Traffic is just a bunch of vehicles that happen to be going in the same general direction.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Speaking as a feminist, it's usually not people who say "Oh, I supported you but then you made me mad, so I'm not supporting your issue anymore."
villager
(26,001 posts)
lunatica
(53,410 posts)An ally is simply someone who is on your side. Or someone who believes you're on their side.
Is this an argument of what 'is' is?
mmonk
(52,589 posts)I always do the right thing regardless.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)Without that there is nothing to discuss, a claim of being an ally is then just a con game, a tactical set up to disarm someone before attacking. Assuming however that someone sincerely believes that they are an ally to a person people or cause, than it is essentially a statement of belief on their part, that it is their intent to, in general at least, be supportive. Which is fair enough on the face of it, no one can honestly "sign" a blank check endorsement of all hypothetical future requests made of them to be completely supportive in ways not yet defined. Whether their actual behavior advances their true intent should always be subject to reflection
From that point forward the table is set for honest dialogue, because allies should if nothing else be willing to listen to each other with an open mind and then be honest back in return. If someone wants to be a real ally of someone or something it means at a minimum all of that plus a willingness to both take tangible steps in support of their ally and to be willing to stand up and be counted, when it really matters, as an ally.
What it doesn't mean is a promise to fully agree with every assertion made by someone for whom they want to be an ally, especially when it is a large class of people whom one generally seeks to be supportive of, because within any class of people views will diverge over what is and what is not supportive behavior. It also doesn't require being perfect in either deed or thought because, quite simply, no one is. However a strong willingness to learn and grow is essential.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)Then both black and white ships will go sailing. If it is gray, they will stay at port to avoid a storm. The point is, liberals of any color should not stop being about something because the facts have not changed. If white liberals want to come to us and offer help, they need to realize that people have gotten burned, and that the bigots use the "I really want to be your friend as a hunting technique" just like the bigots do when they say "you know liberals, we both care about this nation." In an environment as laced without ouritght deception, paranoia is good policy.
As far as Bernie, his mistake was that he allowed many of his supporters to move past the race issues. Considering that Cornell West was a supporter, he could have gone to YOU TUBE, had a major discussion with West, given him more airtime in a few days than Obama or the Clintons have given in in 20 years, and while that would not have cured things, he would have at least shown he realized he needed to fix things, not act like some Diva angry that people interrupted his speech.
Side note: when there are internet celebrities who work out of their basements for no pay, yet get watched everywhere from here to China, why don't politicians who complain about who the media is a rigged stage spam the Hell out of you tube. You know that if my fictitious "Cornell West talks with Bernie Sanders about race" video existed, DU would have linked it to death.
That being said, while BLM still has a cause, every cause has to be wary of operatives. Operatives work, especially when there are people who no longer even have to name themselves shoveling literal billions. When the Koch brothers outright bragged they would personally blow 900 million, you know that was the tip of an iceberg.
All the same, does it make me a bigot if I fantasize about Bill being forced by BLM to finally make that apology for all those racist dog whistles he blew in 2008?
WestCoastLib
(442 posts)Does that make me your enemy?
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)indicates that you have no idea what I am talking about.
WestCoastLib
(442 posts)Even so, my race is germain to the discussion.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)TM99
(8,352 posts)then there was no need to call a group or Sanders 'white supremacists racists'.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)I think it's just as easy for a progressive as for anyone else, to unwittingly further a discourse (and by extension, a social system) which places white lives above black lives in value and importance. The well-meaning, but ultimately misguided, "all lives matter" counter-meme is a good example of this.
TM99
(8,352 posts)And they were not just a poor choice of words. Read their website. Read their statements. Read their social media stream. These words were chosen specifically and purposefully.
And yes, if you address a crowd that includes Sanders and call them 'white supremacist liberals' then you are calling all of them including Sanders, bigots & racist.
I grew up in the south. I know white supremacists. This was outrage hyperbole tinged with racial epithets.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)that what he said and what I was responding to.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)...is not a fault. Some may say a disturbing word sometimes but as I'm fond of saying: One spoken action does not constitute a universe.
azmom
(5,208 posts)Can you provide me with links to do some reading on the subject? I googled and read a few articles, but would appreciate your help in finding some quality readings on the subject.
sarisataka
(18,779 posts)The subject headed the issue. They can xhoose to have allies or sympathetic bystanders. The bystanders may wish to help but remain passive if it is perceived their aid is not wanted.
OTOH the old adage 'choose your enemies wisely' applies to allies as well. An ally who turns and runs at the slightest problem isn't worth having in the first place.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Last edited Sun Aug 9, 2015, 09:30 PM - Edit history (1)
No one. A person can self-identify however they like. The object of the supposed alliance is free to accept it, or not. That's it.
I'm a white, middle-aged man with a top 5% income. I'm in almost the most privileged demographic there is in the world (I certainly have a top 1% income if you consider the entire world, not just the USA). In short, as a liberal Democrat, I'm nearly always an "ally" in the causes I advocate for. Over the years I have had to learn to "check my privilege" when offering ideas. As a reasonably well off white guy, I'm pretty used to people listening when I speak, and I am ashamed to say that I have been socialized to EXPECT that. I have learned to fight it, and sometimes I fail. But I have learned to offer ideas and then shut up and listen. I'll make aguments where I think appropriate, but I avoid like the plague anything like a paternalistic, "shut up, I'm an ally and I'm trying to help you!" Ultimately, we cannot be good allies if we are telling oppressed peoples what they should and should not do.
In short, offers ideas, suggestions, and reasoned argument. Never tell. ALWAYS listen.
That's just my personal experience.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Damn it man ... you get it!
Your post. Well said, thanks Adrahil.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)and the OP is arguing that's perfectly understandable...ally.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts).. But while I am not a white supremacist, I have certainly benefited from a system of white supremacy. That's just the reality. I didn't deliberately seek it, but I did benefit. It's sometimes hard to admit that, and yeah, sometimes I feel defensive. But I can't be very helpful if i go around feeling insulted all of the time.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)i think the standard usage applies.
Ie, "white supremacy" equals KKK.
My grandfather "passed" as white and transformed my family. The ramifications of that decision reverberate to this day from his tragic personal issues dealing with that decision to whole portions of my family that were excised that I've only recently re-connected with. I take offense at the term "white supremacy" as applied to "white privilege".
Imo, they're different even if they appear to be semantics.
The KKK use of the word actually means something to those of us who've had direct experience with how that phrase plays out.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Just don't expect black people to agree with you.
KKK is not the definition of white supremacy. Racism takes many and varied forms, some quite subtle, all based on the belief either overtly or covertly that whites are superior to other races. They all don't result in lynchings or cross burnings.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)thus trying to tar Bernie Sanders (and everyone else at that meeting) as white supremacists. Imo.
They knew they were appearing before a group most interested in SS reform who aren't savvy to nuanced BLM rhetoric yet they still employed flame thrower rhetoric.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)If one is going to speculate as to what BLM was "counting on", the white supremacy = structural/institutional racial status quo makes far more sense ... from a Black lived experience that knows that most expressions of white supremacy are the institutional/cultural stuff.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)It's a very emotionally charged term, I know. I'd hope that as progressives and liberals, we can get beyond the personal defensiveness.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts) 1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I have said nothing of the kind in this OP ... I can, however, make the argument that economic primacy supports through neglect, the racial status quo, i.e., systemic and institutionalized racism.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)Is that better? 
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)The determination has to come from those needing allies. Only they can tell if someone outside of that group is truly an ally.
Call Me Wesley
(38,187 posts)because I tend to see it as the buzzword it is, often followed by some kind of advice, like "I want a pony too, but this is not the time to ask for one," "yes, I see how you're treated, but can you just tone it down a notch?" Etc., etc., etc. ad infinitum.
Judge me by my actions.
TM99
(8,352 posts)For me an ally is someone who, without input or control from me, offers to support me or my group in staving off an oppression or an oppressor. If they are sincere, walk their talk, and dialog with me, then trust is built up to a point where we can work together to win our particular battle or battles.
I do not berate my allies if they are not perfect. I certainly do not rage at them or violate their boundaries. I do not physically invade their space and yell at them face to face. I definitely do not call them names or insult them in broad brush terms.
If I am going to act that way, and generally I have grown wise enough not do do so, I certainly save that level of rage and expression of hurt and anger for my enemies. They are the ones that need shook up, awoken to the reality they are ignoring, and disturbed.
nashville_brook
(20,958 posts)alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts) BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)If your objectives align, you are in a practical, though not formal, sense allies.
The objectives of BLM are admirable. The tactics and verbiage of BLM have become loathsome.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Not sure whether that qualifies me as an "ally" but I don't really care about labels.
malaise
(269,188 posts) BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)malaise
(269,188 posts)but institutional racism has been acceptable to both political parties so the ally question is real.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)is a sentiment I once saw on a sign during a protest for disabled rights. An ongoing struggle of disability rights movements has been to make the demand to be considered as the people who have particular expertise when it comes to the conditions and biases when it comes to the experience of living with a disability.
I see a lot of dialogue that resembles the efforts of nondisabled care takers claim to be experts on what is good for us then hijack the policy demands and dialogue. A lot of the time it turns out to be about them as parents, service providers, etc.
When we are talking about what is happening on the ground, we are the experts. Just as I think allyship\who is included among those who we believe understand and take us seriously should be determined by disabled activists and stakeholders, so should that be the case with BLM activists.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)...then you're an ally of the Republican Party, because that's who you're helping. And when you are allied with Republicans, don't be surprised when liberals tell you to fuck off.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)And I've decided I'm not going to call myself a liberal or a progressive any more.
People can take me or leave me as I am, make up whatever name they want for me.
I'll still believe what I believe, do what I do, and I've decided I don't really care what labels people want to put on me.
aikoaiko
(34,184 posts)Kali
(55,025 posts)
aikoaiko
(34,184 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Kali
(55,025 posts)especially for those that may feel it is aimed at them, but I do think it is a topic worth discussing just in general terms.
Kali
(55,025 posts)I tend to think of myself as an ally for a lot of different groups or causes. I don't know if I am actually viewed as one.
I suppose ultimately it would have to be defined somewhat by all parties concerned.
what makes a good ally? can one be a partial or temporary ally? can an "enemy" become an ally under some circumstances?
nadine_mn
(3,702 posts)I do consider myself an ally but if you don't see me as one then obviously something is wrong. What I think I am doing and what you are seeing aren't matching up.
Obviously I wouldn't state that I am an ally if I didn't want to be one... so what do I need to do?
Because this is the internet and you can't see my face or hear the tone of my voice, I want to make sure you understand that I am not being defensive, angry or snarky.
This is a sincere desire to bridge that gap between how I see my actions vs how you see them.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)They don't seem interested in allies. And they are demonstrably uninterested in building alliances or coalitions with anyone not already part of their little echo chamber.
Good luck with that. They're gonna need it.
HFRN
(1,469 posts)don't have to worry about others saying 'I'm your ally' for long
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)I'll listen, ask what I can do the be an ally and then determine if I'm willing to do it.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)What, after all, is an ally? Is it somebody that you support or is it somebody who supports you, or some combination?
It's like friendship.
The four positions divided into my beliefs and your beliefs.
I believe that I am your friend.
I believe that you are my friend.
You believe that I am your friend.
You believe that you are my friend.
Each of us, though, can only know the 1st and 4th, and, as such, we might have doubts about the 2nd and 3rd, and it gets tricky too. How does one 'prove' that they are a friend?
Same with an ally. We were on the same side, presumably, working to elect Obama. But before that we were opponents as I was supporting Edwards and you perhaps were not, and after he was elected, we may have had diverging ideas about what we wanted him to do.
After he was elected for example, Obama extorted some states into passing primary seatbelt laws - my own included. I was NOT at all happy about that. Others here were all 'hurrah, hurrah for the police state WTG Obama!!'. I got pissed off when he made 87% of the Bush tax cuts permanent, others believed him when he declared that to be a victory.
And so on. Alliances and friendships can break down.
Maybe we have been friends for years, but you feel I have not been a very good friend. There are ways you can tell me this which will allow us to still be friends, and there are ways you can express that which would make it almost impossible.
In the world of alliances, there are always those who would love to see an alliance break up, because it would give them more power.
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)An alliance is like a contract. It takes at least two to make one. If there's no agreement, there's no alliance. Who gets to decide? The parties involved, of course. So, like everything else in life, it's subjective as hell.
One thing to note about alliances: they're based on mutual need, not mutual love or agreement. The desire to dominate, by either party, will kill the alliance. Each party has to decide how much of the other party's foibles, for lack of a better word, they are willing to tolerate in order to advance the goals of the alliance. That also raises the key point of all alliances, that they exist to achieve goals, not for the purpose of having an alliance.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)I saw a remark about this in a thread, and I'm curious about which allies are doing this and what they are doing.
Jetboy
(792 posts)much like the TTW saga.
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)I appreciate real allyship when it comes from straight people towards the LGBTQ community, and I try to uphold that standard when supporting other oppressed groups. But too many people think they can be an "ally" and still hold some reprehensible views, or in some cases try to come off as a kind of savior for basically not being a jerk towards minorities.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)White liberal racists and tell a candidate to bow down to you, they aren't your ally. I'd say that's a good rule.
William769
(55,148 posts)
Tarheel_Dem
(31,241 posts) stevenleser
(32,886 posts)1. The folks complaining about the BLM protests would chastise people in any other situation if they criticized protesters for being too aggressive. They're only complaining because the protesters chose to protest some folks' sacred cow. I even saw one person who had a Che Guevara pic as their DU icon complain that the protesters were too aggressive. An admirer of Che Guevara, who advocated violent protest and revolution all over the globe to achieve leftist causes, thought that grabbing a mic was too aggressive.
2. An ally in the fight for equality for a group doesn't stop being an ally when that fight becomes inconvenient or because some members of that group protest in a way that is aggressive.
hay rick
(7,643 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)that would be Marissa ... On matters regarding economic justice, at this moment, that would be Bernie.
But since Bernie is rumming for a national office, and Marissa is not ... I would hope Bernie is seeking to be my ally; rather than, him seeking me be his.
hay rick
(7,643 posts)Waiting for a politician to come to you sounds like code for ranting on the internet as a substitute for action in the community. I think making yourself valuable to a campaign is the surest way to make your issues their issues.
I believe Marissa is a poor representative of BLM.
Freelancer
(2,107 posts)If you have goals in common, it's always best to treat them with respect, and to keep people on your side, rather than having them turn against you. If they have resources that could be of value, you definitely don't want to wind up at cross purposes with them.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)So they would know, right?
Even though BLM got two important Dem candidates to come up with statements @ institutional racism in the last couple of weeks, they're "doing it wrong". Where have I heard that before?
Marr
(20,317 posts)I would tend to doubt that "ally's" sincerity, personally.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and no this is not do you support Black Lives Matter or Black Lives Matter Seattle
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)
beac
(9,992 posts)BLM is an important cause and someone who could have EVER supported the racist Tea Party and the racist Sarah Palin does not seem like the kind of person BLM wants speaking for them.
She strikes me as the worst kind of bandwagon jumper and her latest "Drinking White Tears" instagram makes me think she cares more about making herself a famous controversial figure than finding allies for BLM.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I, also, she was in high school when she was sporting the button. Kids do the damnest things.
beac
(9,992 posts)I stand by my opinion that she cares more about making herself famous than she does about BLM.
ETA: And, if you knew about the Palin support (which was so much more than just a button on a backpack), then why did you claim to have no idea what the pp was talking about?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)not ETA: 42 claims and 72 hours leads me to inform myself.
beac
(9,992 posts)discredit a cause she allegedly cares about.
Fair enough on your having the time to learn about her history of bad decision making, though you sure picked a confusing way of expressing that.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)beac
(9,992 posts)What a great discussion leader you are.
You may have more in common with Marissa than you realize.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)beac
(9,992 posts)Look, I know your original post was about allies. And I am sorry if I have gone off too far on this Marissa tangent but she is costing BLM allies, not making them.
She is making this about HER and not BLM. And that is a shame.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But I am on my phone so I can't cut and paste stuff. If I could, you would see your critism of Marrisa is the exact critics by conservatives and white moderates, alike, of King and Malcolm and Chavez and pick a protester of note. (Try reading King's Letter from Birmingham Jail.
Why can't you see that?
beac
(9,992 posts)She is no King/Malcolm/Chavez. Trying to make her their equal is ridiculous.
Are you okay with the fact that she's also a homophobe?: http://www.thefalcononline.com/2010/11/body-of-christ-needs-repentance/
She doesn't get to call people bigots when she is one herself.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)So many wish to quote ... in their day.
No. I am not okay with her heterosexism. Nor, am I okay with the feet of clay of King, Malcolm and Chavez. And, yet, their legacy of anti-oppression, lasts and are celebrated.
beac
(9,992 posts)And I hope you know that it is because I think BLM is an important movement with an important message that I hate seeing someone like Marissa Janae Johnson grabbing their spotlight for herself.
Bigots have no place in any movement that is striving for social justice.
Hekate
(90,837 posts)Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
MADem
(135,425 posts)From everything I've seen, they're just fine with prosecuting their OWN agenda, which doesn't seem to have anything to do with electing this one or that one.
They want a focus on the issues they deem important, and they're determined to "act up" until they get that focus.
Thus, all of these "Get in line" and "You'll be sorry" posts are kind of meaningless.
Bravenak tried to point this out.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Or run one of their most passionate voices out of the room...!
Positrons
(53 posts)If you call yourself Muslim, Christian or whatever... You are...
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)But I dont need your permission to be outraged about the same things you are nor I do I need your permission to work to change them. What I do owe you is to not speak for you and to listen to your experience and not dismiss it because it doesn't match my own.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Well put.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)HFRN
(1,469 posts)as with your question, it's for others to decide, not for one to proclaim
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)HFRN
(1,469 posts)
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)LMBAO.
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)Holy crap!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Around here ... with the random drive by insults by allies.
HFRN
(1,469 posts)ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)The persons without full human rights. The persons subjugated to systems of oppression through racism, through gender, through sexual orientation, the persons who live with the fallout from historical genocide, the persons who deserve the human right to choose whether to determine whether a pregnancy should be terminated.
The persons with centuries long historical oppression that lives on and on like a damned legacy. -----"damned" in the old fashioned sense of the word.
Where I am not oppressed, or systematically abused I wish to reach out to those who are, and simply ask "what can I do to become an ally"? Where I experience subjugation and infringement of my rights, I wish to say "here is what you can do to be an ally"
Civil, kind, heartfelt and genuine conversations--often uncomfortable, always worth it
ananda
(28,877 posts)As a woman, if a man identifies as my ally, I say thank you and go from there.
Then I just wait and see if he means it, and that means I get to tell him when he makes mistakes, he apologizes, and so on. Ultimately, I am in charge of the relationship, but I also know that I want my allies in good shape. Attack is never an option.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)if they are telling you they are an ally while simultaneously telling you what is and is not prejudice against you and what rights you should and should not have, and they end it with telling you to kiss their ass the way they want it kissed or you will lose them as an ally, you can bet they were never an ally to begin with.
There are many more hints and clues:
They tell you to quit whining about wanting rights.
They talk about your "pet issues."
They call you a "single issue" voter.
They tell you that you just want a pony.
They tell you that you should wait to even mention your rights until the runoff for dog catcher in Bumfukt is settled first, because that and every other issue in the world is so much more important.
They tell you that wanting rights is costing Democrats elections.
They tell you to shut up until after every election.
After every election, they blame you for every single loss and tell you to shut up again, because the next election is only two years or four years ago. There is always a reason to tell you to STFU, because the Democratic Party is losing because of you and your silly, pesky wish for equal rights.
They tell you that every single other person they know in your community agrees with them that your rights are not important. Usually, it turns out they know only one other person like you and that person is their family member that they have beat down and abused into going along with them just to shut them up with their hatred.
They tell you that you already have rights and are imagining things.
They tell you that you are just looking for something to be outraged about.
They tell you that you are too sensitive.
They compare your situation to other parts of the world and tell you that you have it good.
And that is just stuff that happens ON DU.
Do any of the tactics above sound familiar? I would be willing to bet they do. With "allies" like the ones who do the stuff listed above, who the fuck needs enemies?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)makes YOU divisive (as if their entering the discussion to tell you how divisive you are is unifying) AND makes you a "witless tool of the Oligarchs!!!!!!
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)You could probably add a lot to the list, tbh. It's amazing how we can compare notes like this and see the similarities in their arguments, like they think they can tell you what racism is or me what homophobia or transphobia is. It just doesn't work that way and they refuse to see it. It all boils down to they are not really our allies. They are full of it.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Then they expect me to sit down and vote for their candidates, and proclaim that I'm a Republican ally if I don't want to.
QC
(26,371 posts)We heard all of those things from our "allies" here.
Bok_Tukalo
(4,323 posts)Thanks
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Allies are obvious by their words and deeds.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)so much of these claims seem furtive, at best, and at worst, are either, a product of the narcissistic times in which we live (where I get to declare stuff and impose it upon you, irrespective of your thoughts, desires, or interests) or, a product of white privilege (where white people get to declare stuff and impose it on Black people, irrespective of your thoughts, desires, or interests), or both!
Orrex
(63,225 posts)Generally, I would say that I try to help when/how I can, and otherwise I try to stay out of the way and not make things worse.
If that makes me an ally, then terrific. If not, then I'll keep working on it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)that would make you an ally.
Orrex
(63,225 posts)
Rex
(65,616 posts)Whereas black people don't trust white people, because of 200+ years of history. Big difference.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)
?w=640
So, perhaps, when the message is "Let's get together ... Uh, can you give me a boost?" ... One might not question the other's reluctance.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)and you give me something to drink, you're pretty much my ally.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I'm hungry and I think you are, too?
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)we'd put a shirt on your back.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)because I thought your being in jail was your biggest problem?
See I can do it, too ... my "ally".
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)But you come off nonsensical.
If you're looking for bogeymen everywhere you go, you're guaranteed to find them.
But from I've read from you, it seems like you're pissing up a rope. I mean that in the best possible way.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but I wasn't the one making flip posts ... now was I?
And if you think I'm always "ginning for a fight", and dismissively having me looking for "boogeymen" and "pissing on a rope", even in the best possible way ... I say thank you!
You have revealed yourself as anything BUT an ally.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)I'll just take you with a grain of salt.
I'm from the Real World, your MO don't move me, bubba.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)whatever that is suppose to mean.
And don't call me "Bubba"
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)Bubba is a term of affection.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but Bubba is no where near a term of affection in my life's experience or in my neck of the woods.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Last edited Wed Aug 12, 2015, 01:37 PM - Edit history (4)
I withhold judgment on who puts in an appearance and lays such claims.
I'm the white half of a biracial couple married for over 20 years. I've been reading many forums along with DU over the past few days, and I will tell you that I'm not comfortable with some of these people who claim to be allies and clearly do not understand the issues.
My husband has been arrested twice on trumped up crap over the years. One was the result of reporting a fenderbender for being tailended while being black. We called the cops so that we could get an accident report for the insurance company only to find that he was being detained and hauled to a detention center of the large city in another state where we were visiting. The cop refused to tell me where they were taking him. He was never charged with anything but told to report to court when he was released nearly two days later with a form indicating that bail had been posted for him. No one had posted bail and there was no court case on the docket when he and an attorney reported to the court on the date indicated on the form. The arresting officer was trying to get the black man out of a white suburb and in the process, set up the dynamics for my husband to have a record with an outstanding warrant if he had not shown up at court.
Second, an arrest at his place of employment where he had been harrassed for a couple of years by a clique of racist coworkers with the full knowledge of the supervisor. They continually harrassed him in ways that sometimes put him at risk to be hurt or killed on the job. They called him "n.... boy" and bolted his locker to the floor facing the wall. When he was going along the catwalks, they would roll pop cans and other items in front of him to trip him up. When he was working on ladders among high steam pipes, they would come along underneath and kick or shake the ladder he was on. When they discovered asbestos in the facility, it became part of his job to remove it as it was discovered but his supervisor would not send him to asbestos abatement training while sending everyone else, none of whom ever did the type of work he was doing. Finally, this bunch who grew tired of trying to drive him out and connived to get rid of him so that a friend of theirs could get the job that they felt was too good for a black man. They made up a story that he had threatened to kill one of them, thus leading to the arrest. Two years after the case was settled and many changes to eliminate the racism in the department and undo the unhealthy power dynamics there. Did he have allies? Only after he had experienced nearly losing his livelihood and his health and/or life and his freedom did the "allies" in the all white department step forward to lend support. Only when the investigation brought people asking questions did they acknowledge the terribleness of the way he was treated.
There is a town that he will not drive through on the way to work because the police are known to stop black people very frequently. He will go out of his way to get to work. His experience there was that this one cop pulled him over a quarter of a mile away from where the railroad tracks crossed the road and ticketed him for interferring with a railway crossing. An expensive ticket with no one to step forward to verify the truthfulness of his statement.
At this point, I don't trust cops anymore and I don't trust "allies" because the time for people to be allies is not only when it serves their purpose. I am still reserving judgement on candidates, and I will tell you that how supporters behave and how their candidate of choice gives them feedback means something to me. I can tell those of you stepping up and those of you who choose to remain at the sidelines, it does matter. It matters a hell of a lot. Speeches and symbols will only get you so far. You need to understand that political leaders come and go but this type of mistreatment and worse has been going on for centuries. The fight for equality without prejudice will go on with or without you, and I will be in the ranks. No person should have to fear for themselves or their family member to be out and about in their community because of the pigmentation of their skin. Black lives matter. It is a truth and should not be a political inconvenience to any sincere person claiming to be an ally.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Well stated.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)I don't know a single black person who doesn't have stories like that. Which is deeply shameful for this country. I get livid when I hear people say stupid stuff like "well don't talk back to the police" - when it's obvious that a racist cop will make a problem if they want to. It's obvious that this country has a serious problem. And stuff I see posted on DU makes it obvious that plenty of caucasian liberals actually *don't* get it, aren't willing to listen, and believe that being liberal makes them immune holding racist views.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)about who doesn't get it. I wasn't online much yesterday and this thread has grown considerably and in disappointing ways since I last looked at it. I find it concerning that confronting those progressive/liberal end of political spectrum results only in a meltdown over the optics of the show and not by the very real abuses and deaths occurring as a result of not making a change in this system. What is especially frustrating is that I see little grasp of the message.
pnwmom
(108,997 posts)The more stories we hear like that, the better a chance the truth will finally penetrate some of our thick heads.
Black lives matter and change can't come soon enough.
hunter
(38,328 posts)
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)If they aren't already.
catrose
(5,073 posts)A device pings a network to say "Hi, I want to join." The network either says No or presents a challenge, like asking for a password. In the case of Diebold voting machines, the machine asks "Are you an administrator?" and if you answer Yes (when the only other possibility is No), you're in. This is one tiny reason that voting machine software is bad: It trusts everybody. So allies indicate that they want to be allies, and the potentially allied network accepts or rejects, based on the criteria that it sets, although in the case of people, different parts of the network might accept or reject with different criteria.
Another difference is that a device doesn't mind pinging until eternity, no matter how many times it's rejected, even if the network just stops listening at some point. Most potential allies won't try that long.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)one might seriously consider why they were rejected.
catrose
(5,073 posts)but starting from "worse than useless and in fact harmful" [not sure I'm quoting correctly] doesn't give me much hope that I'm wanted or needed in the effort, no matter how strongly I feel that black boys and men should be able to walk down the street or through a store without being killed; that black women should not be hustled to jail on spurious charges, only to die in custody; and that black houses of worship should be sanctuaries, safe places.
I keep sitting here trying to come up with more, but probably I'll just make matters worse. I apologize for any offense; it was not my intent.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)without coming up with your own answer(s).
IVoteDFL
(417 posts)I honestly would try to understand. Don't think of me as your personal ally. I would still be an ally for those that I love, those have passed because of the fatally flawed criminal system and their families. I can't forget the children either, most of all I think we need to fix this broken down shit so another generation doesn't grow up in it. The one thing I do promise is to try to listen and understand, but I can't and won't be silenced by anyone, which yes I know is white privilege and I am sorry for that.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)You are my ally.
If you are trying to tell me what is best for me and what I should be doing and how to do it ... after being told, thank you but I'll determine my own interests, or worse telling me my interests are misguided ... then, soldier on; but know ... you are not an ally of mine
IVoteDFL
(417 posts)The thread is kind of long and I didn't bother to read it. Of course I am on your side. I don't ever try to tell anyone what is best for them. Only assholes do that.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I was offering, for the first time, my definition of an ally.
So many, of late, have been declaring themselves allies, while telling me/us (Black people) that Bernie is in our/me best interest, despite my having questions ... and freaking the hell out when I /we ask them.
Assholes is tight.
Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)just because you don't like them doesn't mean they aren't on your side. By their actions you will know.
and guess what,
you don't have to like them either.
You are putting this on an individual level and that is just not how group action works.
Team work is getting things done whether you like your team mates or not, has nothing to do with.
Just get the job done and at the end of the day go home to the ones you love.
artislife
(9,497 posts)It must be agreed upon by all parties involved.
If one party hasn't agreed, the other party can still be friendly towards the other and still may want to work on behalf of the good that the other wants, but it still won't be an ally.
So even if I would like to be your ally, you must also want me to be.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)mainer
(12,029 posts)I'm just wondering which candidate they support. Since they attack Sanders, is there a Republican they think is better? Or are they declaring everyone to be their enemy?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)BLM is not partisan ... they do not/have not endorsed/supported ANY candidate.
No ... there are no republicans better on the topic of race.
Isn't that kind of binary thinking?
mainer
(12,029 posts)Which makes it seem like they think he's the worst of the lot.
If they would show up at all the candidates' appearances and spread the protest everywhere, I think it would make a lot of us feel better about it. Right now, it seems so targeted at one candidate.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)because she wasn't there. And, she has not been successfully confronted yet, because her events don't not lend themselves to doing so. There was a reported attempt just the other day ... security/the secret service prevented it. And, apparently, HRC is/has gotten in front of the confrontation risk by seating down with BLM.
I doubt that (not pointing at you) ... there was a sub-thread reporting BLM's thwarted attempt to confront HRC ... and the Bernie supporters response was that it was a staged event (and this was the sentiment of Bernie supporters, throughout the internet).
That said, look at O'Malley's camp ... They were confronted at NRN ... he mishandled the occasion ... he met with BLM and, more importantly, released his plan to address BLM's concerns, WITHIN DAYS ... BEFORE HIS NEXT BIG PUBLIC EVENT. That responsiveness is the difference.
mainer
(12,029 posts)and they can't get in to Hillary events, but if we knew that the GOP was being held to account as well, it would just look more evenhanded.
There needs to be a statement from BLM that ALL the candidates should be addressing the issue, otherwise it seems that only the Democrats are being criticized.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)the fight against republicans is not about communicating that you will be heard and hold them accountable ... that fight is to get them unelected ... PERIOD.
Democrats ARE BLM's target because Democrats are the ones likely to respond.