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cali

(114,904 posts)
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 07:20 AM Aug 2015

the evolution of a charge: from white privilege to white supremacist

Aargh. I just managed to lose what I wrote. Isn't it funny how when you have that happen, what you lost suddenly becomes a lot more meaningful and important than it almost certainly was in reality?

Here's the much condensed version

White privilege describes the advantages to having a white skin in a racist society; the most basic advantage is a right to be much safer from the effects of institutional violence. There are many more. Now I'm not wild about the term white privilege for the same reason that I'm not fond of the word oligarchy. They're both buzz words; they have a tendency to make eyes glaze over with remarkable rapidity. In any case, white privilege is accurate and I can't think of a better term that isn't several sentences long.

I digress. On to the definition of white supremacist. A white supremacist is someone who believes that anyone not white is inferior and that whites should subjugate and dominate non-whites. Personally, I'm neither hurt or offended by being called a white supremacist because I identify as a liberal and I'm white, or because someone is doing so for obvious political reasons. It's too silly to take offense over something that.... silly.

I'm not telling black activists what words to use or what actions to take. That's up to them. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with every word spoken or every action taken by every activist. And it doesn't mean I forfeit the right to voice my opinion. If anyone wants to call me a white supremacist for doing so, have at it.

One more thing: Regarding Marissa Johnson, so what if she supported Sarah Palin in high school? When I was 15, I read Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead and loved it. When I re-read it some years later, I threw it aside in disgust. I think Marissa Johnson is a confused young woman who may be laboring under religious delusions but I don't think she's some sort of demon and I don't need anyone to disavow her. In the scheme of things, she's not all that important.

105 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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the evolution of a charge: from white privilege to white supremacist (Original Post) cali Aug 2015 OP
I disagree Spacedog1973 Aug 2015 #1
Ms. Johnson didn't accuse anyone of displaying white supremacy cali Aug 2015 #3
Your wild guess is paranoia Spacedog1973 Aug 2015 #61
I will repeat for sadly the 1000th TM99 Aug 2015 #6
thanks. cali Aug 2015 #8
... sibelian Aug 2015 #9
+1 Marr Aug 2015 #25
++++ a million, thanks! nt haikugal Aug 2015 #52
Thank you! dgibby Aug 2015 #67
It is damned disgusting TM99 Aug 2015 #72
Which black life did Marissa Johnson save? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2015 #10
great post! n/t zazen Aug 2015 #21
I'm impressed with the quality of the responses in this thread! haikugal Aug 2015 #53
Thank you! [n/t] Maedhros Aug 2015 #55
I think you misunderstood the protest Spacedog1973 Aug 2015 #63
I think you misunderstand my comment. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2015 #64
Again you misunderstood Spacedog1973 Aug 2015 #65
accept what? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2015 #66
Excellent! dgibby Aug 2015 #68
From the poster just above yours Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2015 #69
So BLM tactics have had "no useful outcome"? at all? tia uponit7771 Aug 2015 #78
^^^ALL of THIS^^^ hifiguy Aug 2015 #96
Do you really think that if a Trump supporter, or David Koch, or an Alex Jones-head had taken that GreatGazoo Aug 2015 #15
"their hierarchy of needs placed their emotions above the urgency of black Lives" Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2015 #19
You're describing "selfish." Igel Aug 2015 #27
Nonsense. Maedhros Aug 2015 #54
No it did not place Sanders above black lives Shankapotomus Aug 2015 #76
It's a smear, not a charge. A charge has some basis in fact. leveymg Aug 2015 #79
this fight will only get dirtier Supersedeas Aug 2015 #99
That can only benefit the GOP N/T leveymg Aug 2015 #100
Is Bernie Sanders taking charge of his campaign? Baitball Blogger Aug 2015 #103
IMHO, this is a helpful discussion... (w/edits) OneGrassRoot Aug 2015 #2
thanks for your thoughtful post. cali Aug 2015 #4
I think she was saying that Seattle is full of "liberal white supremacists" gollygee Aug 2015 #5
she used a phrase that has actual meaning and associations. cali Aug 2015 #7
Her message was a pointed barb at all of us Generic Other Aug 2015 #87
I agree, generally, but I think people are much more racist than they believe they are. alarimer Aug 2015 #11
An aha moment!!! OneGrassRoot Aug 2015 #13
I moved from a place where the schools were awful. jeff47 Aug 2015 #47
I couldn't agree more... OneGrassRoot Aug 2015 #49
But how much of that is about poverty and not about race? starroute Aug 2015 #29
I think urgency is the point here... (w/edit) OneGrassRoot Aug 2015 #44
But can there be racial justice in a fundamentally oppressive system? starroute Aug 2015 #71
Hate is part of the equation and that isn't going to change onecaliberal Aug 2015 #102
People who say they are for justice, it's good to know how they mean that. mmonk Aug 2015 #12
Man.. your feelings are REALLY hurt. Adrahil Aug 2015 #14
no, they're not really hurt. I do find this intellectually interesting from a sociological perspect cali Aug 2015 #16
That last paragraph can't be stated enough, and thank you for writing it. NuclearDem Aug 2015 #17
One small step away from calling everyone who disagrees "Nazis" Democat Aug 2015 #18
It's an attempt to beat down opposition Hydra Aug 2015 #20
Many DUers have long recognized the "white privilege" meme as divisive, unproductive, Nye Bevan Aug 2015 #22
I don't have a problem with the former. it's factual cali Aug 2015 #23
There's a reason that President Obama has never once used the phrase Nye Bevan Aug 2015 #24
I think he doesn't use the term 'white privilege', ronnie624 Aug 2015 #28
Seems like you are claiming that the majority of white people are racists. Nye Bevan Aug 2015 #30
Most people harbor inherent racial biases. ronnie624 Aug 2015 #33
The president is bi-racial whathehell Aug 2015 #34
Therefore all white people in the US are truly progressive on race relations, ronnie624 Aug 2015 #38
No, and all white people aren't "privileged" either. whathehell Aug 2015 #40
People carry their (well established) subconscious biases everywhere, ronnie624 Aug 2015 #48
Yes, and that's true of all people, whathehell Aug 2015 #57
All white people in our culture ARE privileged by the color of their skin. Gormy Cuss Aug 2015 #50
No they're not. Read post #31 for the explanation. whathehell Aug 2015 #74
Yes, we are. Gormy Cuss Aug 2015 #83
LOL..You may be, I'm not, and please, did you really use WikiPedia as whathehell Aug 2015 #84
If you're white, then yes you are. Gormy Cuss Aug 2015 #89
No, and I suggest you find someone who likes playing "Yes you are"/No I'm not" all day. I do not. whathehell Aug 2015 #91
You do realize that all meanings of a word in a dictionary entry are valid, right? Gormy Cuss Aug 2015 #97
I am using the more commonly used definition, because I, like most here, whathehell Aug 2015 #101
There is an inheirent privilege to race. Race is the second assumption marker at first sight. haele Aug 2015 #56
First of all, you are speaking only of America, whathehell Aug 2015 #58
Understood, and I had thought to add that. But this is a USA problem. haele Aug 2015 #62
The problem is not limited to the USA whathehell Aug 2015 #75
I agree. I grew up in a poor multiracial neighborhood. avaistheone1 Aug 2015 #88
Thank you. It is a misguided term whathehell Aug 2015 #92
I grew up in a poor nearly all white neighborhood. Gormy Cuss Aug 2015 #98
she didn't. he had a scholarship cali Aug 2015 #41
That was for his higher education, whathehell Aug 2015 #60
It's not factual. It makes biased treatment the "norm", and fair treatment a "privilege" whathehell Aug 2015 #31
Exactly. Being treated courteously and respectfully by a cop should not be considered a "privilege", Nye Bevan Aug 2015 #32
Yes, of course. whathehell Aug 2015 #35
Exactly so. Waiting For Everyman Aug 2015 #43
If white privilege is a meme or racially charged is beside the point. mmonk Aug 2015 #36
Again, there's no 'privilige' in not being searched without probable cause.. whathehell Aug 2015 #39
Of which fair treatment you enjoy while others do not due to skin pigmentation. mmonk Aug 2015 #46
To the extent, that it isn't eroded, if not fully cancelled out, by the construction of my body.. whathehell Aug 2015 #59
Are you white or taken as such? mmonk Aug 2015 #70
Apparently you didn't read my post whathehell Aug 2015 #73
LOL/ I've gone dizzy trying to find it with so many people responding in this thread. mmonk Aug 2015 #104
Gotcha.. whathehell Aug 2015 #105
+1 Waiting For Everyman Aug 2015 #51
once you accept that you must have guilt because of your skin color HFRN Aug 2015 #26
For the vast majority of people engaged in this issue... OneGrassRoot Aug 2015 #37
well, we did have an African American AG, but he left for a cushy Wall Street job HFRN Aug 2015 #42
Not sure what that has to do with your comment re: white guilt, but okay. n/t OneGrassRoot Aug 2015 #45
I have no guilt ibegurpard Aug 2015 #77
This isn't about guilt. Starry Messenger Aug 2015 #80
sorry i didnt get your permission to feel that way HFRN Aug 2015 #81
Sorry you're too in your feelings to hear people. Starry Messenger Aug 2015 #82
Maybe, but others would say the same of you and those agreeing with you.. whathehell Aug 2015 #85
'I'd hate to be that limited. ' HFRN Aug 2015 #90
Nope. It's about protecting the economic Status Quo by electing an Oligarch. Romulox Aug 2015 #86
*Yawn* Starry Messenger Aug 2015 #94
Like I said...yours has been a HUGE unmasking. Yawn indeed. Romulox Aug 2015 #95
it's am interesting sociological phenemon. but I think it's fascinating what people project onto cali Aug 2015 #93

Spacedog1973

(221 posts)
1. I disagree
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 08:10 AM
Aug 2015

You can do something stupid, yet not be stupid.
You can say something racist, yet not be a racist
You can say something sexist, yet not be a sexist.
Etc etc etc

Some of the Bernie sanders supporters displayed white supremacy ; their hierarchy of needs placed their emotions above the urgency of black Lives. It placed Bernie Sanders above black Lives. It placed politics above black Lives.

And these are supposed progressives. Ignorance is less of an excuse.


 

cali

(114,904 posts)
3. Ms. Johnson didn't accuse anyone of displaying white supremacy
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 08:25 AM
Aug 2015

she she flatly called Sanders and the crowd white supremacists.

Let me hazard a wild guess, you're either a Hillary supporter or you claim the faux "on the fence" label. Looks to me, that you aren't above using this as a political cudgel.

Spacedog1973

(221 posts)
61. Your wild guess is paranoia
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 01:34 PM
Aug 2015

I dont vote in your elections. I'm not in the US.

She called all those who shouted her down white supremacists as they exemplified those values. Their emotions trumped her issue in their minds. Its the very essence of supremacy whether you agree or not.

Right there, right then, at that moment, yes, they were white supremacists. Let's make it clear, this isn't a permanent condition, nothing is. For all we know they may have changed and rethought their position afterward. But at that moment her accusation was spot on.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
6. I will repeat for sadly the 1000th
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 08:43 AM
Aug 2015

time that this was NOT a Sander's rally.

Out of the 1000's in attendance at this Social Security and Medicare Anniversary rally, I am sure there were Sander's supporters, however, as it was not a Sander's event, it is a bogus characterization to say that those that even got upset at the brat on the stage were his supporters. We have no way of knowing how many were or were not.

But as long as this lie continues, and yes it is a fucking lie, that this was a Sanders event or rally, then it fits the meme that has been being pushed here by Clinton supporters (and yes a few O'Malley ones as well) since May that he has a 'racial problem' when he does not.

It sickens me that partisans are using black lives and my community to score points in a game they are afraid to lose.

So who really is putting politics above black lives? Look in the mirror.

dgibby

(9,474 posts)
67. Thank you!
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 02:35 PM
Aug 2015

No one knows who, in that crowd that day, were Bernie supporters and who were there to learn about SS and Medicare, but it certainly hasn't stopped certain people from using it to their political advantage. Bernie must scare them to death. The most appalling aspect of this is that they're politicizing something as important as black lives to denigrate one candidate in favor of another. It's disgusting.

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
72. It is damned disgusting
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 03:04 AM
Aug 2015

and I just don't see it stopping.

Hell I respect the Occupy movement. But today some rep offered up an open letter to Sander's supporters repeating them memes based on distortions of act, and it is just so damned tiresome!

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
10. Which black life did Marissa Johnson save?
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 08:51 AM
Aug 2015

Last edited Wed Aug 12, 2015, 01:06 PM - Edit history (1)

Here's the thing - people actually look for connections, and ask 'How does this help?'

If you tell a person 'Excuse me, I need you to stay where you are, and not get in the way while I save this black child's life', chances are really strong they'll stay where they are and let you perform CPR in the middle of the street or whatever.

If, on the other hand, you tell them 'Shut up and listen to me rant and say things to you that sound like insults so I can save a black child's life', they're going to ask you 'Where's the child and how does this save its life?'

If you can't show a connection between what you're doing and some useful outcome, they're not going to be interested in sitting and letting you insult them. People who are giving Marissa Johnson flack are doing so because they don't see how what she did actually did anything to save any lives. Now maybe they're shortsighted, maybe she did somehow save lives, and it's just not obvious. But you can't claim people 'placed their emotional needs above the urgency of black lives' and expect them to believe it if you can't point to any black lives she was actually saving.

They placed their emotional needs above what looked to them like her emotional need to call them names.

Those same people, btw, had applauded a BLM speaker earlier in the presentation, apparently. They're willing to support changes to the police forces that actually create changes and DO save black lives. Had Marissa Johnson come up on stage and talked to them about getting a referendum on the ballot that would create some structural change to rein in police, and save black lives, she would have gotten applause and a bunch of signatures to get that referendum on the next ballot. But she didn't come up and do anything that looked to them like it was saving any black lives.

Show people there's a connection between what you're doing and the outcome you want, and they'll support you.

Spacedog1973

(221 posts)
63. I think you misunderstood the protest
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 01:47 PM
Aug 2015

I understand your point, but at the same time think you haven't caught up with social media in this age.

Yes there is an audience directly in front of her. But there is a far bigger audience 'out there', it includes people like many of us who didn't attend, media outlets, YouTube, twitter, facebook etc etc. Picking up a mic in an election campaign means much more than speaking to the audience in front of you.

Your point also misses a huge issue; it assumes that white people lack knowledge of racial inequality, racism, systemic racism, police brutality etc etc.

How could they not know? It's been in the news constantly for centuries in the US in one way or the other. The issue has been presented cordially for centuries. Discussions, marches, black leaders have spoken, written books, given lectures. Movies have been made on the issues over and again.

To be white in america and ignorant of racial strife means either one of two things ; you don't care, or the presentation of the message has bee wrong.

This meme essentially stating 'we need these issues presented to us politely' is weak sauce and simply an excuse. Yes, it highlights that black Lives matter less than emotions and the demand for decorum.

BLM is the result of waiting and waiting and 'doing it the right way' and getting nowhere. When you see something in BLM you don't like, take a step back, take a breath out and think about why they exist and what has brought things to this point.

Its not just police brutality, but ally apathy and to be frank, ineffectiveness.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
64. I think you misunderstand my comment.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 01:55 PM
Aug 2015

I'm not saying 'Do it politely'. I'm saying do it however you want, but don't be surprised when people don't respond as you want them to, unless you figure out a way to do it that they can connect with.

If you can show me each individual life you're saving, and how insulting me saves that life, I'll sit still and let you insult me as much as you want, because I do want to save lives.

Spacedog1973

(221 posts)
65. Again you misunderstood
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 02:01 PM
Aug 2015

You need to be shown lives that have been saved before... Etc etc

Thats you. Some other person? Something else, some other measure before they can accept it.

Emotions over lives. Sensibility over urgency.

We can go round and round but it would be pointless.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
66. accept what?
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 02:08 PM
Aug 2015

I'm saying i would have to be shown the life being saved to 'accept' that what was done there in that place actually saved a life.

Not that black lives matter, not that black people are being murdered by police. I can see that, and I can see that it needs to change, and I saw that before she ever took the stage. What I don't see is how what was done on that particular stage did to actually change anything. I saw Marissa's emotions, her sensibilities. I didn't see any lives being saved. But whatever. As you say, it seems to be a pointless argument.

You appear to think what she did will help save lives. I don't, but hope they'll be saved in spite of it.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
69. From the poster just above yours
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 02:51 PM
Aug 2015

there seems to be the suggestion that the audience of the stage action was not in fact the audience in attendance. That they were actually just being used as stage props in the performance, and that people using social media were the true audience. In which case this was more about demagoguery, and more Trump-like than I would have expected.

GreatGazoo

(3,937 posts)
15. Do you really think that if a Trump supporter, or David Koch, or an Alex Jones-head had taken that
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 09:28 AM
Aug 2015

microphone that some in the crowd (who was there for hours because the attempted theft of their Social Security money is underway), would have reacted any differently? Perhaps the reaction has more to do with Mary Johnson assisting, inadvertently, those who are in the process of stealing Social Security.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
19. "their hierarchy of needs placed their emotions above the urgency of black Lives"
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 09:35 AM
Aug 2015

When did Social Security become merely an emotional need?

Igel

(35,337 posts)
27. You're describing "selfish."
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 10:31 AM
Aug 2015

Placing their emotions above the urgency of (saving, I'd assume) black lives isn't supremacy.

White supremacy is saying that because they're white, they think you're properly under their control as white people and subject to their supervision--not just in their meeting, where it's expected and proper (because you've entered their space), but "out there" in everything you do because everywhere except possibly your own home is "their space."

Please, let's not redefine words on the fly to suit ourselves. Definitions require a community, and if you get different communities all trying to exert their own supremacy to manipulate and show just how all-powerful they are, all you get is gibberish and intentional self-serving miscommunication.

It's the scourge of the Planck scale '60s pomos writ macro. (I assume you understand that and agree with it.)

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
54. Nonsense.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 12:36 PM
Aug 2015

No Sanders supporter displays "white supremacy" - that is utter bullshit.

We have not placed our emotions above the urgency of black lives - that is utter bullshit.

We have not placed Bernie Sanders above black lives - that is utter bullshit.

We have not placed politics above black lives - that is utter bullshit.

Just stop.

Shankapotomus

(4,840 posts)
76. No it did not place Sanders above black lives
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 08:13 AM
Aug 2015

That's where the BLM supporters are, respectfully, missing the point.

Bernie Sanders, above all the other candidates, is the one who would most likely tackle that issue if he were elected. The guy was on an upswing and BLM protestors momentarily took the wind out of his sails. And being disappointed in what BLM did is not racism or defending white supremacy. It's smart politics in favor of black lives.

We cannot afford to mar our own candidates in this election.

Do you think if Bernie Sanders loses to a Republican that Republican is going to give a damn about black lives?

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
79. It's a smear, not a charge. A charge has some basis in fact.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 09:04 AM
Aug 2015

This "Bernie doesn't care about minorities" and the broader "white progressive supremacist" labeling is a smear, a meme, a rat-f-ck dirty trick designed to preempt a PoC migration to a broader Democratic coalition for Sanders.

Baitball Blogger

(46,755 posts)
103. Is Bernie Sanders taking charge of his campaign?
Fri Aug 14, 2015, 11:34 AM
Aug 2015

Is he setting a direction that is now agreeable to BLM?

In the end, you will vote for Sanders, not his supporters.

OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
2. IMHO, this is a helpful discussion... (w/edits)
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 08:16 AM
Aug 2015


I've probably missed threads which provide a background to this (though I fully recognize it's about what happened in Seattle), but on the face of it, the words do matter. And, in my experience as someone who has been immersed in racial and social justice pretty much my whole life, it's maddening.

I grew up with and have known flat-out white racists my entire life; I'm like a bloodhound, I can spot it very, very quickly. It is much more prevalent -- throughout the entire country (and world) -- than many people seem to realize. I'm not talking bias, something we all likely have to varying degrees, but racist beliefs and behavior. Bottom line: They are indeed white supremacists because they absolutely, positively view white people as superior to everyone else. Not only black people but brown people, Asians...everyone. It is a spectrum of dislike though, with the darker one's skin, the greater the dislike. Even if they feel Asians are, in general, of superior intellect, for example, they still feel overall superior and that the US belongs to them. Trump is tapping into all of this very effectively.

It used to be that I could have a fairly rational conversation referring to their "racist behavior and worldview." They would readily admit that they believe they're superior to anyone of color. They were okay with the term racist, but "white supremacist" evoked images of the KKK which seemed to turn them off (honestly, why, I'm not sure now that I think about it because their views are completely aligned with the Klan).

Anyway, when Obama came along, Rush & Co. effectively brainwashed these people into believing that they're no longer racist. We -- liberals -- are the true racists.

Now, that said, I have definitely experienced liberals/progressives/Democrats who hold, often subconsciously, feelings of white superiority. Quite a few definitely still have a blind spot as it concerns the realities of white privilege. I can't gauge what the approximate percentage is of liberals who hold such views but I'd guess that it's more than we white people think but less than people of color think.

But in trying to get people to wake up -- whether it's the outright racist/white supremacist or the liberal who refuses to accept that white privilege is real -- the words REALLY get in the way.

I wish we could come up with another lexicon to allow for more open discussion. White privilege and white supremacy turn soooooooooooooo many people away from even listening that I admit I do try to stay away from them, even though they are very accurate in many instances.

I'm chiming in here in the hope that perhaps we can develop a more effective way to discuss these issues without trigger words causing people to turn away from the get-go. But, for now, I got nothin'. (Edit to add: After rereading this, white superiority feels much better than supremacy and I think it would at least allow for discussion, even if someone denies they feel that way.)

This entire blog post is great discussing these terms, though it doesn't help me in my own struggle in discussing this more effectively:

With the term racism, there is no power structure being implied in its use. With the term white supremacy there is a power structure being implied in its use. While a person of color can be racist it's not the same as a white person being racist and/or using his or her white privilege to gain an upper hand in society. A person of color may have racist thoughts but those thoughts are rarely enacted through the power structures of our society to effect mass change and to affect other people.
 

cali

(114,904 posts)
4. thanks for your thoughtful post.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 08:28 AM
Aug 2015

And I'm not just saying that because I agree with you. This is difficult stuff to wrestle with.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
5. I think she was saying that Seattle is full of "liberal white supremacists"
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 08:37 AM
Aug 2015

which I took as a harsh way of saying that they all talk a lot about how liberal they are but in the meantime, there are a ton of racial problems in Seattle not getting any attention. Like if they were as liberal as they say, there would be more anti-racism work going on in Seattle. After reading everything I've seen about this, that's my take-away.

It was a strongly worded way to say it, but I don't think it was akin to calling them KKK members. It sounded like it was more "people who exist and do nothing about a white supremacist environment despite being liberal."

Bernie Sanders is obviously not a white supremacist (his family has suffered greatly under white supremacists) and if they were trying to call him that, they were out of line. I just don't believe that's the message they were trying to give. You're right that they're young, so they aren't necessarily great at coming up with perfect wording for their message. They're angry, and have good reason to be angry, and young people expressing anger aren't going to have perfect wording. That doesn't mean we shouldn't listen and try to understand.

It seems like both protests are making Bernie stronger rather than hurting him. He is a good person who listens with an open mind and responds appropriately. His responses are going to bring more people into his campaign.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
7. she used a phrase that has actual meaning and associations.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 08:44 AM
Aug 2015

I do believe that the message she was trying to give was that Bernie is a white supremacist, given remarks she's made subsequently.

In any case, the focus of the op wasn't intended to be her.

Generic Other

(28,979 posts)
87. Her message was a pointed barb at all of us
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 12:33 PM
Aug 2015

We can't rest on the laurels of past milestones (ending slavery, passing the Civil Rights Act, electing an AA president, appointing a black attorney general). The work is not done.

I am trying to view this from her perspective. Not much seems to change the underlying conditions of many African Americans in this country. Certainly not the weak attempts of liberals to effect change. POC clearly still live in an unacceptably racist society. And everywhere they look they see evidence of the end results: trigger-happy cops, a broken justice system, institutional racism and a heck of a lot of white people defending it all. And nothing much is ever done to change it.

This inaction results in a long pent-up history of frustration and simmering rage that incites anger afresh at every new atrocity. The anger spilled over and burned some liberals. I would much preferred it had been spewed on the rightwing obstructionist, but I am going to see it as a call to action. A gauntlet thrown at us all to address this very critical issue with renewed vigor.

I think you are right. This young woman has seized the talking stick and won't let go even when she can barely articulate the message. It's hard to discuss shades of gray when you have such a black and white argument.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
11. I agree, generally, but I think people are much more racist than they believe they are.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 08:56 AM
Aug 2015

The last two episodes of This American Life about schools are extremely revealing in that regard. In the first, it was about white parents who didn't want to integrate their predominantly white school district with students from a failing one (mainly African American) in Missouri. Actually the school district Michael Brown went to. Some of the rhetoric from the white parents was blatantly racist, asking "When will the metal detectors be installed?" That sort of thing. But all under the guise that the schools would suffer if "those" students would go there. When in fact the opposite occurs. Integrated schools are better for everyone.

But the second episode revealed even deeper strains of racism. In this case, it was how difficult it was to get people to voluntarily integrate schools. They had to market it, sell it to the white parents, without once using the term integration. They had to include white students on the flyers because otherwise parents would not even consider it. In a way, it was brilliant marketing, but oh so disheartening that it was even required. In this case, in Hartford, CT, the schools took the form of magnet schools, often in what white people would call "bad" neighborhoods. People use that term, "bad neighborhood" when they really mean "black."

So I do think you have a point. Almost no one (well a few fringe types) truly believes any one race is inherently better than the others. But when you talk to white parents about schools, in particular, you certainly get a lot of code words for racism. "Bad" schools, "bad" neighborhoods, etc.

Obviously there are a lot of issues surrounding education; integration is just one of them. Some of the problems schools have is funding inequalities. Rich districts have more money. Poorer districts have less money are dealing with a lot of issues the others don't have.

Yes, certainly, if you want people on your side, you should probably avoid loaded terms. In activism, there is always a divide between people who want to work within the existing system and those more radical elements who want to tear it down and start over. I don't think Code Pink, for instance, ever accomplished much, except to get people to start thinking more critically about the Iraq war, which is something at least.

OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
13. An aha moment!!!
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 09:21 AM
Aug 2015

(My aha moment comes at the end)

Don't you feel that this IS indicative of feeling superior?

Almost no one (well a few fringe types) truly believes any one race is inherently better than the others. But when you talk to white parents about schools, in particular, you certainly get a lot of code words for racism. "Bad" schools, "bad" neighborhoods, etc.


I appreciate your post, btw.

Having been immersed in this for so long, when people say similar things as you describe re: schools and such, at the heart of it I happen to believe that it does come down to people feeling superior.

Granted, we can feel superior for a multitude of reasons (our level of education, for example). It isn't that we dislike "the others," but it does mean that we feel superior.

I feel this can be very true of someone who doesn't want their children to go to "bad" schools, which are "bad" because of poverty...and it so happens that most of the students are students of color. (I think some people CAN make the distinction, recognizing the systemic, racist history which has led to a school or area being "bad" and have no bias against people of color but don't want their children in harm's way or undereducated, but I think most people develop a knee-jerk reaction and DO start to view non-white people as inferior in some ways, even if they're not aware of it.)

I think I just had an aha moment.

Charges of racism and bigotry and supremacy imply that racists, bigots, supremacists DISLIKE The Other. I don't think that's always true. I think the charges of paternalism reflect this. Many people of color perceive the admonitions "now isn't the time," "BLM is shooting themselves in the foot," etc., etc. as white people feeling entitled to set the narrative. That entitlement indicates a feeling of being superior. It doesn't mean the white person doesn't like The Other based on their skin color, but they do feel superior and entitled to set the narrative.

Just as very often men do the same thing to women. There isn't dislike, but there is a feeling of superiority.

And when someone feels superior to another based on skin color, that's white supremacy.


As an aside, I always try to be careful to distinguish racist/bigoted BEHAVIOR or views versus someone who has clearly, repeatedly and consistently exhibited these views and then referring to them as a racist/bigot.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
47. I moved from a place where the schools were awful.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 12:02 PM
Aug 2015

That area is vast majority white. "Rust belt" area where all the manufacturing jobs have literally been sent to China. The only people left there are either 1) working at the base where I was working, or 2) the children who grew up in that city who were unable to escape.

Where I live now, the county next door has bad schools. Thanks to the remnants of segregation, that county is almost entirely white.

The majority black county in the other direction? (Yet more remnants of segregation) Schools are better. Not as good as the county I'm in, because that black county has less money.

Sometimes, it's not a dogwhistle. Sometimes, it really is poverty. And sometimes, it is a dogwhistle.

Many people of color perceive the admonitions "now isn't the time," "BLM is shooting themselves in the foot," etc., etc. as white people feeling entitled to set the narrative.

And sometimes allies are saying "You say you are trying to reach people like me. What you're doing is turning away people like me."

If you want to "get through" to some group of people, honest feedback is helpful in tuning your message. It lowers the mountain you are trying to climb.

And not all feedback is honest. Sometimes the person just doesn't like being challenged. But that doesn't mean all people giving feedback dislike being challenged.

And sometimes, you just have to piss everyone off to get sufficient attention.

Human societies are not simple "black and white" constructs. There is never one "correct" way to do anything. Very few people actually fit neatly into the boxes we are desperately shoving them into.

OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
49. I couldn't agree more...
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 12:21 PM
Aug 2015

this isn't easy. It's very complex. Each person is unique, with unique perspectives, experiences and personality type.

That's why I definitely want to find flexible ways to encourage meaningful listening and meaningful dialogue. And unless I know someone fairly well, I will continue to be very careful about calling them a racist or bigot or whatever, but instead try to point out how something they may have said or done -- a one-off perhaps -- could be perceived as such.

We rarely know what is in the mind and heart of another and, as you said, people are often not honest with themselves about that, let alone others. When these horrific murders of young black people became mainstream news, beginning with Trayvon, I didn't focus on Zimmerman's or Darren Wilson's intentions in the moment they killed those young men; that's so hard to prove, though we can certainly make assumptions. Instead, my dialogues were focused on others' reactions to those events; you know, the whole "thug" narrative if the victim is of color versus "troubled" if white.

Words really do so often get in the way from the very start, preventing such dialogue.

But, again, I agree with you very much.

starroute

(12,977 posts)
29. But how much of that is about poverty and not about race?
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 11:00 AM
Aug 2015

It's really hard to disentangle the two, because skin color is so often used as an easy marker of socioeconomic status. But a lot of what gets categorized as racism seems to boil down to middle class people being afraid of the working class, suspecting that anyone in their own neighborhood who looks like an outsider is there to rob them, and worrying that their children will be in danger if they're forced to attend school in poor neighborhoods.

This certainly gets tangled up with race. The nature of white privilege is such that poor white people can "pass" as non-poor if they put on their best clothes and mind their manners, while even affluent black people are likely to be tagged as poor and accused of stealing their own cars or attempting to break into their own homes.

But I suspect that racial tensions would be far more subdued if the middle class didn't feel quite as vulnerable to the loss of income and status -- and if long-established black neighborhoods weren't as actively threatened by gentrification and the elimination of accessible jobs.

And that's not even mentioning the disparities between wealthy communities and poorer ones which affect everything from the funding of public education to the pressure on police departments to extract as much as possible from residents in the form of fines and fees.

It's all very well to demand that Bernie focus on racial justice as well as economic justice. But we can never deal with racial disparities if we don't address the economic disparities. And if we deal with the economic disparities, the racial issues will become far more manageable.


OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
44. I think urgency is the point here... (w/edit)
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 11:51 AM
Aug 2015

While I don't dispute what you said and agree that racial and economic justice are intertwined and that both should be aggressively addressed with an eye toward systemic reform, when people feel a literal target on their back each day due to their skin color and the skin color of loved ones and friends, that is a matter of urgency -- an urgency that single-payer healthcare and increased minimum wage won't solve quickly enough.

I feel it important to acknowledge that poverty -- regardless of skin color -- is also resulting in death, right here in the United States of America.

I take a triage approach. Which groups of people are in the most daily danger of death and critical injury and dehumanizing suffering in a way we can act on NOW?

I think all people who are homeless fit that description as well, but that is where the classist/capitalistic aspect of our institutions must be transformed as we take direct grassroots action to the best of our abilities. Racism is a separate foundational element in our systems even though, again, they are intertwined.

Hope that makes sense.

starroute

(12,977 posts)
71. But can there be racial justice in a fundamentally oppressive system?
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 03:16 PM
Aug 2015

In a science-fictional sense, you could imagine a color-blind but economically unequal society, where the 1% and the 99% were both fully integrated and race wasn't an issue -- but where the 1% was still on top and the 99% was still kept in line by the middle class being taught to fear the poor and the poor being subject to police state tactics.

But even if that was desirable -- and it isn't -- there's no way to get there from our present system. Capitalist society depends on having an underclass, both to do the gruntwork and as a way of controlling the middle class, and maintaining a racial dividing line is the easiest way to manage that.

Minimum wage increases and single-payer healthcare aren't going to solve the problem of inequality either, of course. What's needed is a complete transformation of the system. And I understand that the black community can't wait for that -- that they just want the damn cops to stop shooting their children.

But I do hope to see BLM develop an increasingly sophisticated economic critique -- which I believe is already happening -- and not put all their eggs in the basket of racial justice.

onecaliberal

(32,886 posts)
102. Hate is part of the equation and that isn't going to change
Fri Aug 14, 2015, 11:30 AM
Aug 2015

Overnight or be legislated away. Especially with a segment of media and society stoking the flames.

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
12. People who say they are for justice, it's good to know how they mean that.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 09:05 AM
Aug 2015

Last edited Wed Aug 12, 2015, 10:24 AM - Edit history (1)

One may have a good cause, but if their words are inflammatory and spit in your face, the recipient has a right to reject you on your actions since actions speak louder than words. Guilt by association claims are also quite dubious, even if you claim a just cause. Again, the recipient then has been given a right to reject you.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
14. Man.. your feelings are REALLY hurt.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 09:25 AM
Aug 2015

How many threads on this have you created now?

Jeez, somebody said something mean.

Suck it up and move on. Bernie has.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
16. no, they're not really hurt. I do find this intellectually interesting from a sociological perspect
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 09:29 AM
Aug 2015
 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
17. That last paragraph can't be stated enough, and thank you for writing it.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 09:29 AM
Aug 2015

I was a Lutheran, anti-gay, borderline misogynistic, ultra-nationalist, meat-eating Reaganaut when I was in high school.

For those who were born and raised liberals and Democrats, congratulations, but a lot of us didn't have that luxury.

Democat

(11,617 posts)
18. One small step away from calling everyone who disagrees "Nazis"
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 09:34 AM
Aug 2015

Including Jewish holocaust survivors.

That's how counterproductive this has become.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
20. It's an attempt to beat down opposition
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 09:52 AM
Aug 2015

The problem is, what opposition are we trying to beat down with the bodies of the unjustly slain? I see a lot of Camp Hillary trying to use this to beat down their opposition to the WH with it.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
22. Many DUers have long recognized the "white privilege" meme as divisive, unproductive,
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 10:08 AM
Aug 2015

Last edited Wed Aug 12, 2015, 01:13 PM - Edit history (1)

racial shit-stirring. Now that this is being racheted up to "white supremacist liberals", and is being directed at good progressives like Bernie Sanders, I am happy to see that the vast majority of DU is catching on.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
24. There's a reason that President Obama has never once used the phrase
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 10:16 AM
Aug 2015

in any of his many speeches about race and racism. Because he's a grown-up with a genuine desire to fight racism as opposed to stir shit.

I'll go out on a limb and predict that President Obama will not be using the phrase "white supremacist liberals" any time soon, either.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
28. I think he doesn't use the term 'white privilege',
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 10:53 AM
Aug 2015

because he has to appeal to a lot of white people, who claim it doesn't exist. Most of them are in denial about their inherent biases, and don't like to hear about or discuss them. They must, through necessity, be coaxed and tickled into supporting policies and laws that address institutionalized racism.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
30. Seems like you are claiming that the majority of white people are racists.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 11:00 AM
Aug 2015

Or even "white supremacists". Fortunately, as I mentioned, the majority of DU has caught on to this divisive tactic.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
33. Most people harbor inherent racial biases.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 11:21 AM
Aug 2015

It's a fundamental truth that is supported by all kinds of reliable statistics and opinion polling on racial attitudes. It's best to be aware of such biases, and attempt to understand them, in my opinion.

I'm not calling anyone in particular, a racist, and I would never call a fellow liberal or progressive a white supremacist. There couldn't be a more perfect oxymoron.

whathehell

(29,082 posts)
34. The president is bi-racial
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 11:25 AM
Aug 2015

and therefore half white himself.

He was raised by the white half of his family and treated VERY well. If you want to talk about "privilege",

talk about his grandma "Toot" forking out $30,000 a year for his private school every year from Sixth grade

through High Shool graduation.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
38. Therefore all white people in the US are truly progressive on race relations,
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 11:35 AM
Aug 2015

and institutionalized racism is a myth?

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
48. People carry their (well established) subconscious biases everywhere,
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 12:12 PM
Aug 2015

including into their professional and official capacities as police officers, doctors, lawyers, political leaders and so forth. This provides a system of advantages for white people over African Americans, and is the foundation for the concept of 'white privilege'.

whathehell

(29,082 posts)
57. Yes, and that's true of all people,
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 12:52 PM
Aug 2015

including people of color, and I've heard PoC admit it, so let's not even bother arguing that, okay?

As to the "privilege" meme, no, and I explained why in a response to Cali in another post on this thread.

You can read it for yourself and tell me what you think of the reasoning. It doesn't deny the reality

of racism in society. It denies the idea that being treated fairly in society is some sort of "privilege".






































threads, the meme of "white privilege" is erroneou














was
ystem of "privilege".

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
50. All white people in our culture ARE privileged by the color of their skin.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 12:25 PM
Aug 2015

There are vast degrees of difference within the privilege (e.g. low income, under-educated whites have little privilege compared to middle income, college-educated professionals) but having a white skin is still a distinct advantage.

whathehell

(29,082 posts)
74. No they're not. Read post #31 for the explanation.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:37 AM
Aug 2015

Even the original poster, to whom I was responding, couldn't refute it.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
83. Yes, we are.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 10:52 AM
Aug 2015

it's not privilege in the sense of wealthy entitlement. It's privilege in the sense of a benefit or advantage conveyed to one group but not to others. Your example of fairness in #31 is a white privilege.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privilege_%28social_inequality%29

whathehell

(29,082 posts)
84. LOL..You may be, I'm not, and please, did you really use WikiPedia as
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 11:44 AM
Aug 2015

the "final word" on the matter?


Try the dictionary, Mr. Cuss -- It's a tad more reputable.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/privilege?s=t

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
89. If you're white, then yes you are.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 01:09 PM
Aug 2015

The wiki link was meant to provide a longer description than what a dictionary definition would and it's more succinct than most scholarly articles on same, but even your link to dictionary.com defines privilege as:

4. the principle or condition of enjoying special rights or immunities.


which is the context in which "privilege" is being used in regard to race.




whathehell

(29,082 posts)
91. No, and I suggest you find someone who likes playing "Yes you are"/No I'm not" all day. I do not.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 04:31 PM
Aug 2015

Last edited Thu Aug 13, 2015, 05:20 PM - Edit history (1)

It doesn't make for a very substantive, or, need I say "adult" exchange, nor does it change anyone's mind.

Btw, the meaning you selected for "privilege" was one of several, and it was ranked near the bottom.

This is key, because in a dictionary, when a word has several meanings, the first given indicates it as the

most commonly used and accepted. The less used and/or accepted are listed after the first in successive order.

The first definition of Privilege is this:

"A right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most".

"the privileges of the very rich", is given as an example.

Note that it says "Beyond" the advantages of most.

Since Whites are "most", of the populace of America, either now or as of VERY recently, nothing

they have as a race, is more than "most". and therefore, not a "privilege".


Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
97. You do realize that all meanings of a word in a dictionary entry are valid, right?
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 09:28 PM
Aug 2015

The first is the most common usage, the others are also accepted usages. That's why they are in dictionaries.

Here's the meaning of the word "got" in your reference source:

verb (used with object), got or (Archaic) gat; got or gotten; getting.
1.
to receive or come to have possession, use, or enjoyment of:
to get a birthday present; to get a pension.
2.
to cause to be in one's possession or succeed in having available for one's use or enjoyment; obtain; acquire:
to get a good price after bargaining; to get oil by drilling; to get information.
3.
to go after, take hold of, and bring (something) for one's own or for another's purposes; fetch:
Would you get the milk from the refrigerator for me?
4.
to cause or cause to become, to do, to move, etc., as specified; effect:
to get one's hair cut; to get a person drunk; to get a fire to burn; to get a dog out of a room.
5.
to communicate or establish communication with over a distance; reach:
You can always get me by telephone.
6.
to hear or hear clearly:
I didn't get your last name.
7.
to acquire a mental grasp or command of; learn:
to get a lesson.


Got it?

whathehell

(29,082 posts)
101. I am using the more commonly used definition, because I, like most here,
Fri Aug 14, 2015, 08:46 AM
Aug 2015

it seems, believe it's more applicable to the situation.

The usage you prefer -- a system where being treated fairly equates to being "privileged",

implies that white people have something they don't deserve, something that should be taken away from them.

Okay, let's say we do that...We stop treating white people fairly...What is the result?

Obviously, the result is an entire nation of unfairly treated people. Is that what we want?

I don't think you do, and I know I don't. I want the opposite: A nation in which EVERYONE is treated fairly,

In that situation, which is what I think most of us want, the word "privilege" has no meaning.

Have a nice day.

haele

(12,673 posts)
56. There is an inheirent privilege to race. Race is the second assumption marker at first sight.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 12:46 PM
Aug 2015

The difference an adult and a child is the first marker.
But after that, race comes before gender, before age if adult, before "class" or the quality of the clothing they wear.

The very first reaction on seeing an adult will be a reaction to their race. The profile we start building of people we don't recognize is based on the first things we see about them, and after "is this a child or an adult" is "what does this person look like - and the color of the skin of the face is the next thing we notice - because we as a species look at faces for recognition and threat cues.

In this society, that "first impression" - the assumption - is the difference between how police, or businesspeople, or even educators, are going to start reacting to someone.
Race is the difference between the police deciding which driver is suspicious in an area where there's been problems. There is an institutional white privilege, whether you want to admit it or not.

Example:
You are getting ready to walk in a working-class neighborhood you are not familiar with. One side of the street, you see a small group of young white people in a front yard in casual clothes drinking beers and engaging in a bit of horseplay while a few of them are working on a car in the driveway. A little further down and across the street, you see a similar small group of young black people milling around on a front lawn and porch drinking beers, engaging in a bit of horseplay, apparently working on a car in their driveway. Both are playing music loudly, and seem to be having a lot of tipsy fun.

I'm not asking you to post your answer or even asking what race you are, but I'm asking you to picture the scene and think about this - what do you feel when you picture both events? Which event has the greatest risk of violence breaking out? Which group do you think the cops are going to be called on?
Which side of the street do you choose to walk down?

This is not a reaction based on the actual merits of the person or what they are actually doing, this is a basic visceral tribal type reaction.

This is why many people talk about white privilege.

Haele

whathehell

(29,082 posts)
58. First of all, you are speaking only of America,
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 01:07 PM
Aug 2015

because except for Apartheid South Africa, which no longer exists, your examples are true only

of countries that have, or have very recently had, strong Caucasian majorities.

It's really a matter of majorities vs. minorities. You're examples.wouldn't work in African countries, for instance.

haele

(12,673 posts)
62. Understood, and I had thought to add that. But this is a USA problem.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 01:41 PM
Aug 2015

To some degree, there is a similar issue in Canada, but their society 1) does not have the history of racially based disenfranchisement - which leads to avoidance tactics as the Status Quo tries to sweep history under the rug and pretend everything's now peachie-keen and we're all equal, Kumbaya... and 2) Canadian society is still less "individual property rights" driven and more "community well-being" driven.
Except, of course, when dealing with the First Peoples. That's another issue, and just as contentious in Canada.

Look, a lot of the majorities vs. minorities issue is what plays in class privilege, but again, the privilege in "good/bad first reaction" is always based on facial recognition - which means that a critical part of that is race. When getting a first look at someone or a group of someones, the first thoughts for most people is going to be:
"Do you look like a threat to me?", then "Do you look like you belong here?"

And for better or worse the "my Tribe" of US culture has been established to be Western European. Western Europeans are the "tribes" that have run the infrastructure and access to that infrastructure, the media - which influences social norms, and especially the law and legal system since the founding of this country.

I do have a question on your "African Countries" comment. Do you know people who live in Africa?
White people are not only associated with former oppressors and colonists, they are associated with wealth and power in most communities. I was told that it's often difficult to get a true read on what is going on in most of Sub-Saharan Africa because white people are almost visitors or transient workers who generally interact with the upper levels of society and business and they and their families don't aren't considered normal residents in the majority of the local community. To be accepted as a peer member of a community, to live under the same laws and cultural norms when white is unique.
Whereas, in Northern Africa, darkness of skin tone brings with it a historical class-based disadvantage - darker skin usually is associated with a more working class or itinerant tribes.

Haele

whathehell

(29,082 posts)
75. The problem is not limited to the USA
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 07:59 AM
Aug 2015

and I have, as it happens, known someone from Africa. A woman from Uganda. We were friends.

Beyond that, I, along with many here, reject the notion that being treated fairly is a "privilege"

That would make being treated unfairly the "norm". You can read my post # 31 for a longer explanation.

Btw, my Ugandan friend was completely devoid of white resentment.

 

avaistheone1

(14,626 posts)
88. I agree. I grew up in a poor multiracial neighborhood.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 12:38 PM
Aug 2015

I assure anyone in doubt poor white people are not privileged. Over 50% of those in poverty are white.

whathehell

(29,082 posts)
92. Thank you. It is a misguided term
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 04:53 PM
Aug 2015

I do wonder if the confusion stems from the idea that when whites deny being "privileged", some

believe they are denying that PofC, especially African-Americans. are disenfranchised, and it certainly does

NOT mean that at all. Anyone with two brain cells knows that, and most (fox news watchers excepted)

will readily admit it.

The funny thing is, the 'white privilege" meme is relatively new. African-Americans, to the

best of my memory and I am in my middle sixties, generally claimed, justifiably, to be the

victims of bias, discrimination, prejudice, racism, whatever, so I'm not sure why turning

the focus on Whites, defining them as "privileged" rather than themselves as disenfranchised,

is suddenly so important.


Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
98. I grew up in a poor nearly all white neighborhood.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 10:12 PM
Aug 2015

The vast majority of households were headed by single women collecting AFDC. The rest of the families were working poor who thought they were middle class because they were so much better off than the single parent households.

Still, when we left our area we had no fear of people assuming we were criminal, stupid, and hopelessly inferior. Our neighbors who were A/A or Latino got that treatment frequently. Yes, inside the neighborhood the cops, social workers, and others treated us all like dirt, but once we "cleaned up" we were just accepted as white. Not so for the POCs, who even with success and standing in the community had to put up with a rasher of prejudice on a regular basis. And that, quite frankly, is why we were privileged.

eta: believe me, I know how hard it is to wrap one's head around this. I sure as hell didn't feel privileged when my family was on AFDC.

whathehell

(29,082 posts)
31. It's not factual. It makes biased treatment the "norm", and fair treatment a "privilege"
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 11:07 AM
Aug 2015

The norm in a society is to be reated fairly.

White people are treated fairly. People of Color are treated unfairly.

To say, therefore, that white people are "privileged" is to say

being treated unfairly is the "norm". It doesn't work.


Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
32. Exactly. Being treated courteously and respectfully by a cop should not be considered a "privilege",
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 11:14 AM
Aug 2015

but rather the way that everyone should be treated.

Waiting For Everyman

(9,385 posts)
43. Exactly so.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 11:48 AM
Aug 2015

Both terms are fad sociology brainwashing nonsense, but I think the supremacist one is much sillier.

I've noticed that in general anytime people start thinking up new definitions for things, there's a con game going on.

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
36. If white privilege is a meme or racially charged is beside the point.
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 11:29 AM
Aug 2015

I am white and I enjoy the privilege of not being searched without probable cause, followed without cause, profiled without cause, or suspected without cause. The charge about white supremacist towards people who aren't, I agree with your position. Because like what I mentioned previously, if the charge is made towards someone who is not, it is without cause.

whathehell

(29,082 posts)
39. Again, there's no 'privilige' in not being searched without probable cause..
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 11:40 AM
Aug 2015

It's just fair treatment under the law.

whathehell

(29,082 posts)
59. To the extent, that it isn't eroded, if not fully cancelled out, by the construction of my body..
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 01:22 PM
Aug 2015

Last edited Wed Aug 12, 2015, 01:59 PM - Edit history (1)

which is female.


mmonk

(52,589 posts)
104. LOL/ I've gone dizzy trying to find it with so many people responding in this thread.
Fri Aug 14, 2015, 01:10 PM
Aug 2015


I guess it doesn't matter. If it is to say the poor aren't living white privilege or in that category, I understand.

whathehell

(29,082 posts)
105. Gotcha..
Sat Aug 15, 2015, 12:52 PM
Aug 2015

It's actually to say that body COLOR is not all that bestows 'privilege'.

Body CONSTRUCTION via gender, bestows its own set of 'privileges'.

For instance, men of all races experience privileges beyond those of the females in their group

and possibly outside of it.

 

HFRN

(1,469 posts)
26. once you accept that you must have guilt because of your skin color
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 10:23 AM
Aug 2015

there's just a natural progression of where that will inevitably go

OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
37. For the vast majority of people engaged in this issue...
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 11:31 AM
Aug 2015

it isn't about guilt at all. It is about being aware of the different life experience between white people versus people of color. Hopefully with that awareness, more people will work toward a much more just, equitable society with just, equitable institutions.



 

HFRN

(1,469 posts)
42. well, we did have an African American AG, but he left for a cushy Wall Street job
Wed Aug 12, 2015, 11:45 AM
Aug 2015

but he's still fighting for a minority, I'll give him that - in fact, I think they're only 1 percent!

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
80. This isn't about guilt.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 09:18 AM
Aug 2015

It's about awareness and not being all *feelings* in discussions about race.

whathehell

(29,082 posts)
85. Maybe, but others would say the same of you and those agreeing with you..
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 11:53 AM
Aug 2015



There is no lack of "feelings" on the other side of this argument, either. In fact,

the suggestion that there might be, is downright laughable.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
86. Nope. It's about protecting the economic Status Quo by electing an Oligarch.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 11:59 AM
Aug 2015

As if the economic status quo is not itself racist.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
95. Like I said...yours has been a HUGE unmasking. Yawn indeed.
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 05:41 PM
Aug 2015

Luckily, next to no one pays any attention to your posts, or your deception might be a problem.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
93. it's am interesting sociological phenemon. but I think it's fascinating what people project onto
Thu Aug 13, 2015, 04:57 PM
Aug 2015

an op that is clearly analysis.

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