The October Farrakhan led "Justice or else" march on Washington

[cali]

will be huge, and that's understandable. The issue of institutional racism and the violence flowing from it, resulting in the murders of black people, make such an event important.

Although I think it's wrong for anyone to oppose this March, I wish that anyone but Farrakhan was leading and organizing it. For him to become the face of the movement opposing institutional racist violence against blacks, when he is himself an out and out bigot, and is preaching violence against others, strikes me as counterproductive.

[mmonk]

1. Yes. It means when someone says justice, it is important to know what that means

For some, it is revenge and even attacking scapegoats. For others, it means true justice.

[Mr Dixon]

2. IMO

Not sure I believe that if LF is leading the march that it will be less effective, IMO marching is not effective as a whole, speeches are pointless, nothing changes in this country until you upset the money!

[mmonk]

3. Men of hate will always dilute goodwill.

[Aerows]

99. +1

Well said.

[cali]

11. I don't think money is the major problem in this

particular dynamic.

And yes, having a hateful bigot lead this, will make it less effective

[Kelvin Mace]

4. Agreed.

Farrakhan is a "scary black man" to the right-wing, and they will point to the March in order to galvanize their ignorant white base.

That, and there will be provocateurs

[mmonk]

6. At first I thought you were being sarcastic because I read it wrong.

That is the cause of my self delete.

[Kelvin Mace]

8. No, I really see that as the GOP strategy

Fox "News" will play this up as angry black men (lots of references to the Black Panthers and lots of file footage of Farrakhan's greatest inflammatory hits) marching to "overthrow" the government by "voter fraud", intimidation, etc.

In the current climate they will be met by "counter-protestors" like the Klan, Oathkeepers, anti-govenrment whackos and the usual suspects. Serious violence right before the election will play right into the GOP's hands, so they will do everything possible to fan the flames.

[mmonk]

16. You misunderstand. I agree with that assessment.

[cali]

12. Farrakhan is a hateful bigot. he is virulently antisemitic

and he is preaching violence. It is not, by any means, just republicans who oppose him.

[Kelvin Mace]

15. Certainly true,

but the GOP are the folks who will benefit significantly from such a march. They will do everything possible to provoke violence and since they see it as the best way to win in November.

[cali]

18. yep. And as you point out, the potential for violence

instigated by white hate groups, is a real possibility

[H2O Man]

23. Respectfully disagree.

Historically, white hate groups avoid confrontations with the NOI. (For that matter, years ago, the NOI pursued relationships with the KKK and American Nazi Party.)

[cali]

30. I didn't know that. thanks

[MADem]

78. In Chocolate City?

With a police force that is skilled at de-escalation and handles enormous protests as a matter of routine?

If you seriously think "white hate groups" are going to instigate trouble at an event that will have overwheming black presence, I want a catbird seat, because "white hate groups" would get a course correction that they'd likely never forget.


Anyone who doesn't get the subject line reference (though "Swirly City" might be more accurate, nowadays) should click HERE for an explanation.

Or just listen to this album....

[Person 2713]

83. Funk blast from the past!

[MADem]

84. Ain't it just!!! nt

[Mr Dixon]

39. Agreed

seems to be working on this board as well

[jwirr]

64. I am not sure he is scary just to the rw and their base. He recently called for stalking and killing

and was called out on it. If you remember the Black Panthers in the 70s scared the hell out of everyone. And in the end they were mowed down with hardly a complaint. I do not want to see that happen again. It is bad enough that they are mowing down individuals.

I think the march is a good idea but calling for stalking and killing will only escalate the situation. And more black lives will be lost than would be already. Sure there would be some revenge but that does not bring the dead back. Revenge is cold comfort. There has got to be another way.

One of the problems that I have is: How do I help? I live in a community that does not need fixing when it comes to police violence. So how do we white supremacist liberals help? The complaint has been made that we are not moving fast enough. For instance what am I supposed to do about your local police force? One thing I do know I can do is support voters rights action. What else?

I am serious in asking. You do not want our input so tell us specifically how to help. The protesters demanded a plan from Bernie and he complied - even hired a criminal law expert to help him. What can we do to help in your opinion?

(Full disclosure: I live in a mixed community where we have a white police force and a Native American police force. This was not so much about racism as it was that local white police were forbidden from trespassing on Indian land.)

[m-lekktor]

7. I will never excuse his bigotry just because people fear criticizing AA's.

fuck that shit majorly. Louis Farakkan is a batshit insane BIGOT. his conspiracy bullshit makes Alex Jones look sane and there is no more blatant anti semite than him. I can't believe people are willing to overlook that. makes me fucking SICK.

[Kelvin Mace]

9. Many on this board are willing to overlook

HRC's fawning praise of Henry Kissinger, so nothing surprises me anymore.

[KittyWampus]

45. There was no "fawning praise". There were polite phrases. And criticism.

So many on this board aren't willing to overlook so many other DU'ers constant dishonest portrayal of HRC.

I don't like her and find plenty to criticize.

But dragging up HK AGAIN shows a paucity in intellectual honesty.

[Kelvin Mace]

77. In what universe does Henry Kissinger deserve even "polite phrases"

as you call them?

"Kissinger is a friend, and I relied on his counsel when I served as secretary of state."

Really? That alone shows that either she is as evil as Kissinger, or completely blind to how evil he is, or so utterly amoral that she doesn't care who she praises as long as she gets to plug her own book while plugging his.

"His analysis, despite some differences over specific policies, largely fits with the broad strategy behind the Obama administration’s effort over the past six years to build a global architecture of security and cooperation for the 21st century. "

(If your policy "efforts" in any way resembles something Henry Kissinger agrees with, you need an immediate morality audit)

"...what comes through clearly in this new book is a conviction that we, and President Obama, share: a belief in the indispensability of continued American leadership in service of a just and liberal order."

Does she seriously believe that Kissinger believes in a "just and liberal order"?

"This isn’t just idealism. For an international order to take hold and last, Kissinger argues, it must relate “power to legitimacy.... So our levers of leadership are not just about keeping our military strong and our diplomacy agile; they are about standing up for human rights,..."

Henry Kissinger? Champion of relating "power to legitimacy"? Defender of "human rights"? A LOT of people would dispute that view. Sadly most of them are dead thanks to Kissinger's actions.

Why would any person with an ounce of morality write a review praising a monster like Kissinger? To me, she might as well have written a review praising a book by Dick Cheney.

[beam me up scottie]

19. ^^^This^^^

Not only willing to overlook it, some are actually sneering at people who are critical of him and his supporters.

[panader0]

10. Just a quick perusal of some Farrakhan quotes turned up these gems:

"The Jews don't like Farrakhan, so they call me Hitler. Well, that's a good name. Hitler was a
very great man."
"White people are potential humans--they haven't evolved yet."

[cali]

13. And there are lots more, equally ugly.

It's not like he's changed that tune either.

[Bluenorthwest]

20. Endless venom

"And the Christian right, with your blindness to that wicked state of Israel … can that be the holy land, and you have gay parades, and want to permit to have a gay parade in Jerusalem when no prophet ever sanctioned that behavior. How can that be the Israel, how can that be Jerusalem with secular people running the holy land when it should be the holy people running the holy land. That land is gonna be cleansed with blood!"
— Louis Farrakhan, Saviour's Day speech, Chicago, Feb. 26, 2006

[cali]

33. yes. he's also virulently homophobic. thanks for the reminder

[Zorra]

34. One thing I've noticed about religious wackjobs ~ they universally hate LGBT. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

75. That comment is a very rare trifecta of hate, Christians, Jews and gay people in one hit

Most people just do the gays and the Jews. Louis goes that extra mile!

[leftynyc]

14. If screwy louie becomes the face of BLM

the movement is finished. ANYONE that supports him will get rightfully trashed. Not one elected official will give him the time of day.

[cali]

42. I don't know that it's finished, but it will be harmed.

And I don't think that just joining this March automatically means you support him.

[leftynyc]

60. I disagree strongly

If he's the leader of this march, anyone connected with it will get tagged - rightfully so. Nobody on the left should have anything to do with that repulsive anti semite. This is his way of trying to gain credibility. It would be a mistake to oblige.

[melman]

88. Taking part in Farrakhan's event endorses Farrakhan

There's no way around that.

[KittyWampus]

17. So you don't like Farrakhan leading black people, you don't like decentralized movements like BLM

that spawn activists who use Sanders AND O'Malley events for publicity…

I think you should contact "Black People" and let them know how it should be done… especially how it should be done to make your candidate look good. Since he marched with MLK and all.

[mmonk]

21. We don't like bigots.

The shortest line between two points is the most accurate.

[KittyWampus]

22. Neither do I. And some people on DU really need to self-reflect-

But that obviously won't happen.

It seems to me that some DU'er say they oppose bigotry when it comes to black people but it comes from an almost purely academic/intellectual level. And that opposition modifies itself when their candidate gets caught up in the politics fighting racism.

[ronnie624]

28. Would you like some vinaigrette and crackers with that? n/t

[cali]

65. yes, kitty you surely do need a strong dose of self-reflection

but, alas, that won't happen. It's just not in your wheelhouse. And for pity's sake, kitty, stop.erroneously and obsessively thinking that everything someone writes is due to who they support.

Cheers, kitty!

[jwirr]

67. Our candidate is doing just fine. What we are worried about is that Farrakhan is going to destroy

the BLM and any hope of stopping police violence by giving police an excuse for their actions.

[cali]

26. bullshit. And your distortion of what I wrote is despicable

but oh so consistent. I said quite clearly that participating in this March is understandable. I am in no way telling anyone what to do, kitty.

What I did say, kitty, is that it will not be a positive thing for a rabid bigot who is himself preaching violence, to become the face of the movement against institutional violence directed at black Americans.

I realize, kitty, that you have a penchant for distorting the words of others, but don't expect, kitty, for others not to call you on that unpleasant addiction of yours.

Have a lovely day, kitty.

[KittyWampus]

41. Maybe BLM and other activists will use his event to raise awareness. Like Netroots.

Ever think of that Cali?

Using any event to raise visibility and awareness?

[cali]

50. has it occurred to you, kitty, that this

association is far more likely to damage the cause than.help it? Not all awareness and increased visibility is a positive thing, kitty. Think Westboro Baptist Church,kitty.

Can you give me an example of anytime that having an avowed bigot figuring prominently in your cause has helped that cause?

[KittyWampus]

54. Once more only more slowly. They.Can.Hijack.Or.Use.ANY.Event.To.Raise.Awareness

Your Sanders supporting cohorts keep asking WHY BERNIE WHY BERNIE and not Republicans.

So if they use a Republican event… that means they support Republicans?

BLM is PRIMARILY ABOUT ENDING ENDING RACIST VIOLENCE.

What part of that don't you grasp?

They are not about partisan politics.

They are about grabbing attention and raising awareness and doing their best to force action.

But since you don't like them cause they disturbed Sanders' canned stump speech (and O'Malleys, but we didn't melt down because of that) you can't see that maybe this event is prime opportunity for networking.

Ultimately, my observation is this- you denounce F. and wish anyone else were doing the event… but didn't note any benefit for Black Activists and PoC.

[cali]

68. what bullshit, kitty. they almost certainly cannot hijack his event

And.how would you know anyone has any intent of doing so. I know you have a difficult time reading with comprehension, kitty, but I said clearly that I find it understandable that people would join the march, but associating your cause with a bigot, is harmful.

And do link to where I've said I don't like BLM. Oops, that's impossible because I've never said that. So just stop with your bitter, mendacious crap, kitty.

Have a blessed afternoon, kitty! Maybe do something to help yourself to get out of that bitter rut you're stuck in!

[panader0]

71. If, as you say, "BLM is PRIMARILY ABOUT ENDING RACIST VIOLENCE"

why would want to involve Farrakhan, a violent racist himself. And homophobe, and anti-Semitic?

[cali]

29. buzzt, kitty. I have not said I don't like BLM or decentralized

organizations. To the contrary, kitty, i have said I support BLM

I think you, kitty, should stop making shit up. I think you, kitty, should should stop putting your own twisted narrative into my mouth and falsely claiming that that's what I said.

Got that, kitty? Good! Now have a blessed day, kitty.

[KittyWampus]

48. Still hoping you get out that missive to black people telling them how to do it, Cali!

It's obvious they need your help to figure out how to raise awareness.

It's not like they can't hijack or use the event linked to Farrakhan like they did Netroots.

OH WAIT! THEY CAN!

[cali]

69. as I've repeatedly written here, I would not presume to

tell black activists what to say or do. But I will presume, kitty, old girl, to tell YOU to stop making shit up. Maybe there's a program for that,kitty.

Good luck!

[m-lekktor]

24. The Southern Poverty Law Center writeup on Nation of Islam is interesting!

They're a hate group. Can you imagine what would be said if a white leader of a hate group held a Washington rally and leftists made excuses for it and overlooked it by verbally "tippy toeing" around it so as not to offend because metaphorically "he makes the trains run on time" or he is addressing something that is needing addressing.

Nation of Islam

Since its founding in 1930, the Nation of Islam (NOI) has grown into one of the wealthiest and best-known organizations in black America. Its theology of innate black superiority over whites and the deeply racist, anti-Semitic and anti-gay rhetoric of its leaders have earned the NOI a prominent position in the ranks of organized hate.

the whole thing:

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/nation-islam

[KittyWampus]

43. So? Black activists can use this event to raise awareness just as they can use Netroots.

Your need to smear anyone who might use this event to further laudable goals is duly noted.

[beam me up scottie]

57. Thanks for posting that info, m-lekktor.

People should know who and what they're defending when it comes to Farrakhan and NOI.

[jwirr]

74. That link is extremely interesting. Thank you.

[cali]

85. that is fascinating and completely horrifying.

[aspirant]

25. This is his march.

"I wish that anyone but Farrakhan was leading and organizing it." Wishing has nothing to do with this, this is LF's and the NOI's event.

[Sunlei]

27. Public marches on Washington is the only way we can make some changes happen.

[mmonk]

32. There is a march on Washington that is going to occur.

From Selma though and it isn't being led by a bigot.

[Sunlei]

37. who are you refering to as a bigot?

[cali]

44. I think its obvious that the poster is referring to Farrakhan

[mmonk]

46. Are you serious?

[Sunlei]

61. yes. I think you should always have a name with that word.

Justice Or Else, Million Man March 2015 Anniversary Promo Video

[Person 2713]

80. I remember the first one and multi generations of family marching together .wow I can't believe how

long ago that was

[NYCButterfinger]

31. I agree with some of Farrakhan's points on issues, but he does have some incendiary rhetoric.

Louis Farrakhan is a good orator and is very inspirational, but he does have some incendiary rhetoric that causes him some trouble whenever he speaks about Jewish Americans. We will see how his march plays out in October 2015.

[cali]

36. he is a hate filled bigot. not just antisemitic but horribly homophobic

He is the leader of a hate group. He is no more praise worthy than any other bigot.

[cwydro]

40. I don't often agree with you.

But I do here.

Wholeheartedly.

[KittyWampus]

58. Yes, but his event is a prime opportunity for Black Activists to network.

Is it not?

Didn't that occur to you while typing out your OP?

[cali]

66. if he becomes prominent or the face of this movement

it will inevitably diminish and damage it because he's a hate spewing bigot. That really isn't difficult to grasp, kitty.

[geek tragedy]

98. Having Farrakhan be the public face of this issue

will increase public support for police violence.

[951-Riverside]

63. And transphobic too

Now I'm trying to find that solution
About a certain person.
I'm trying to find that solution
About a certain person
Who with the modern surgery,
They changed him from he to she;
But underneath the lipstick, rouge and paint,
I wonder, is she is or is she ain't?

What gave him that inspiration and spark
To leave the country and go to Denmark?
He tried to live the life of a man;
It wasn't in accord with Nature's plan,
So he had this operation
And came back home and shocked the nation;
But underneath the lipstick, rouge and paint,
I wonder, is she is or is she ain't?

Now when he/she came back to this country,
They made her a great celebrity;
But under public sentiment,
She got movie contract and engagement.
People all came out of curiosity
To see this Man of the Century;
But underneath the lipstick, rouge and paint,
I wonder, is she is or is she ain't?

When he/she came back to this country,
They made her a great celebrity;
But under public sentiment,
She got movie contract and engagement.
People all came out of curiosity
To see this Man of the Century;
But underneath the lipstick, rouge and paint,
I asked her if she is; I know she ain't!

I asked her if she is; I know she ain't!

[cwydro]

79. He also doesn't have a whole lot of use for women.

Male domination all the way with him.

Ugh.

[stevenleser]

35. I agree with this OP. This is unfortunately not a new problem. If you are Jewish in this day and age

as I am, Farrakhan is hardly the only issue you have to deal with. For instance, I am in favor of the Iran deal. But it is also hard to escape the fact that key members of the Iranian leadership have uttered some harshly anti-Semitic stuff. Not just anti-Israeli stuff, anti-Semitic. So do we Jews say, don't deal with those antisemitic assholes and watch the situation devolve into yet another war? Or a situation in which Iran goes nuclear?

As far as Farrakhan is concerned, being a mixed race person in addition to being Jewish makes Farrakhan's status as a leader in the AA community particularly painful for me. The only solace I take is that outside of these occasional spates of activism, he doesn't seem to have much effect on the country.

But there are many other examples of situations like this that we Jews simply seem to have to deal with. We deal with a torrent of antisemitism all the time all over the place.

[mmonk]

38. True that.

[virtualobserver]

47. beyond his anti-semitism

the tone behind the "justice or else" movement/rally is downright scary

Farrakhan recently stated, “These are not the times for weak people, for cowardly people. I need 10,000 fearless men, who say, ‘Death is sweeter than continued life under tyranny. Death is sweeter than to live and bury our children while White folks give the killer hamburgers. Retaliation is a prescription from God to calm the breast of those whose children have been enslaved. So, if the federal government will not intercede in our affairs, then we must rise up and kill those who kill us. Stalk them and kill them and let them feel the pain of death that we are feeling!”

http://rollingout.com/2015/08/10/min-louis-farrakhan-message-justice-else-calls-retaliation/

[HooptieWagon]

49. Mixed feelings.

We'll have to see how it plays out. Nation Of Islam is generally considered a hate group that advocates violence. Not a good choice to take the lead on BLM issue, if concrete progress is the intent.
On the other hand, NOI was one of the groups sponsoring the Million Man March on Washington about 20 years ago... it was peaceful, and the only controversy was arguments with media over crowd size. BFD.
If the planned demonstration is conducted like MMM, it will have a positive effect. Washington is who and where they need to be heard. If the demonstration devolves into Ferguson type rioting, it will set the movement back. My own thoughts are that BLM will greater empower the movement by partnering through groups like the NAACP, ACLU, SPLC, and ADL to effect real change. That does not appear to be their direction, though. It looks like they are attempting to empower themselves through conflict and divisiveness. This will only empower a handful of 'leaders' within the movement, but disempower the movement as a whole. Just my opinion...BLM will choose the path they choose. We're just observers.

[cali]

52. I largely agree with your analysis

[dembotoz]

51. His voice is heard...do not forget that

And I can understand how his message appeals

If white presidential candidates can span from Sanders to Cruz one has to accept diversity in black communities as well

[cali]

56. I do not accept bigots who spew hate. I do not accept Cruz

And I think your statement about the diversity of candidates is irrelevant.

[dembotoz]

86. Does not matter what you or I think

Was listening to a black talk radio station earlier today
Topic black fatherhood
He was quoted 3-4 times in a positive manner during the half hour I listened

[cali]

87. it matters what people in power think

The Black Caucus, for example, rejects him. He will not help when it comes to the cause of institutional racism. He is a black supremacist and separatists.

[dembotoz]

92. WITH A VERY LARGE FOLLOWING IN HIS COMMUNITY

you may not like
i might not invite him over for dinner

but to pretend he is not a big role player is just dumb

[cali]

94. yes. duh. that was not my point.

[HFRN]

53. this is proving to be a watershed year in relations between factions on the left

that should not be underestimated in terms of long term effects

[4139]

55. It's 3 days before the first democratic debate....

... Good timing! This might help if BLM plans to turns out I force at th debate in Nevada... It would be a good intro!

If you recall the 1995 March there was just histeria of concern before the March, but none when the March occurred.

I live in No.Va. And did a drive by just to see.

Before the March the media will play all his old clips, but at the March expect nothing outrageous or controversial

[cali]

59. simply his leading it, will.be controversial

And of course, his rhetoric at the march and in the days leading up to it will be put under a microscope.

[ismnotwasm]

62. Farrakhan is a disgusting anti-semite

I wish he was nowhere near the MillionMan march, it's the 20th year anniversary. The original March included speakers such as Rosa Parks and had the involvement of the NAACP.

[nc4bo]

70. With TH Louis Farrakhan, I take what I can use and leave the rest.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, I agree with certain aspects of his rhetoric and so do other black folks but I'm intelligent enough to not allow his hatefulness towards other races or ethnicities to program me. I'm certain others feel the same.

So let him have his march, let black people unite in brother and sisterhood, let the world see all the black faces and know we are righteously weary, impatient, angry and done with feeling POWERLESS.

It will be a very good thing.

[cali]

81. so it's ok for someone to express that about David Duke, for example?

You are endorsing a bigot. Period

[nc4bo]

96. Ummm no. The Million Man March.

[IMG][/IMG]

I assure you, all those black faces are not members of the NOI. One does not need to be a member to participate. I have all, the confidence in the world Justice or Else, Million Man March would not be any different. MMM was a peaceful event by and for black people. Not every black person subscribes to his rethoric hook, line and sinker. We don't group think that way but we can show our strength and commitment to make a change.

Seems DU and the press is paying more attention to Farakhan than it is the NAACP march from Selma to Washington, DC. That's been going on for the nearly two weeks. That in itself really amazes me.

[romanic]

72. This biracial gay man

will NEVER support anything that comes out that anti-semtic, racist, bigoted, homophobic little troll. He views people like me as "swine" so I will view him and anyone that supports a single thing he says as "swine" too.

[cali]

82. if anyone here defended or endorsed David Duke the

way some in this thread are defending or endorsing or excusing Farrakhan, they'd be kicked of. Some hateful bigotry is acceptable, I guess.

[panader0]

73. Watch as L. Farrakhan admits being part of Malcom X's assassination. "complicit"

In this interview with Mike Wallace, with Malcolm's daughter present:

[Peregrine Took]

76. "Or else???" This is how Nixon got elected. I can see the rethug commercials already. n/t

[Truprogressive85]

89. hysteria anyone

Who said BLM and Farrakhan are joining forces ?

Did Farrakhan words lead to the killing 9 innocent lives ? or countless lives loss by police ? NO, but I can what did

I could careless about Farrakhan because he only speaks for himself and his followers which are a very small

So stop trying to pin a movement with guy that has no true clout

[cali]

90. I didn't say anything of the sort.

And no, he is not inconsequential.

[Truprogressive85]

91. Reality

He has no true influence sorry to tell you

The thing to be truly fearful of ,is the millions of Dylan Roofs out there they live in a (white privilege) world which tells them that blacks and other POC are the cause of their woes.

[cali]

93. you are totally wrong. try reality.

And sorry, I'm not fearfu

[Truprogressive85]

95. I do live in reality

I am a black male in America

and Farrakhan doesn't speak for me , the black community, or BLM movement

When the last time you questioned were told to speak out your car and search ?

[geek tragedy]

97. Cop unions must love this development

No better way to discredit a movement than to have a bigoted piece of shit like Farrakhan annoint himself head of it.

Farrakhan is an extreme right-wing bigot compared to the Tea Partiers. He's a snappier-dressed version of Fred Phelps.