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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThis is horrifying beyond belief. And, no, what ISIS is doing is not comparable
Last edited Fri Aug 14, 2015, 06:22 PM - Edit history (1)
to any oppression of women in western countries. Or almost anywhere.
Escapees are talking about being thrown naked into buses and transported to slave auctions, with officials notarizing documents before courts about the sales.
If you can stand it, watch the short video where the young men are joking and laughing about buying the girls.
These men deserve their own circles in hell.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/14/world/middleeast/isis-enshrines-a-theology-of-rape.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
QADIYA, Iraq — In the moments before he raped the 12-year-old girl, the Islamic State fighter took the time to explain that what he was about to do was not a sin. Because the preteen girl practiced a religion other than Islam, the Quran not only gave him the right to rape her — it condoned and encouraged it, he insisted.
He bound her hands and gagged her. Then he knelt beside the bed and prostrated himself in prayer before getting on top of her.
SNIP
A total of 5,270 Yazidis were abducted last year, and at least 3,144 are still being held, according to community leaders. To handle them, the Islamic State has developed a detailed bureaucracy of sex slavery, including sales contracts notarized by the ISIS-run Islamic courts. And the practice has become an established recruiting tool to lure men from deeply conservative Muslim societies, where casual sex is taboo and dating is forbidden.
A growing body of internal policy memos and theological discussions has established guidelines for slavery, including a lengthy how-to manual issued by the Islamic State Research and Fatwa Department just last month. Repeatedly, the ISIS leadership has emphasized a narrow and selective reading of the Quran and other religious rulings to not only justify violence, but also to elevate and celebrate each sexual assault as spiritually beneficial, even virtuous.
SNIP
The Islamic State’s sex trade appears to be based solely on enslaving women and girls from the Yazidi minority. As yet, there has been no widespread campaign aimed at enslaving women from other religious minorities, said Samer Muscati, the author of the recent Human Rights Watch report. That assertion was echoed by community leaders, government officials and other human rights workers.
Mr. Barber, of the University of Chicago, said that the focus on Yazidis was likely because they are seen as polytheists, with an oral tradition rather than a written scripture. In the Islamic State’s eyes that puts them on the fringe of despised unbelievers, even more than Christians and Jews, who are considered to have some limited protections under the Quran as “People of the Book.”
SNIP
The Islamic State recently made it clear that sex with Christian and Jewish women captured in battle is also permissible, according to a new 34-page manual issued this summer by the terror group’s Research and Fatwa Department.
SNIP
Beyond that, there appears to be no bounds to what is sexually permissible. Child rape is explicitly condoned: “It is permissible to have intercourse with the female slave who hasn’t reached puberty, if she is fit for intercourse,” according to a translation by the Middle East Media Research Institute of a pamphlet published on Twitter last December.
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Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)
pocoloco
(3,180 posts)Since time immemorial, not condoning it, just the way the
world and human nature work.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Really.
valerief
(53,235 posts)
onecaliberal
(32,864 posts)
DesertFlower
(11,649 posts)Qur'an justifying this.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)reinterpret anything by just using the passages you want.
This is horrible and should be upsetting to any woman alive. But as we know the war against women is as old as time. I have often wondered why men fighting wars almost in all cases think that it is fine to make the women and children the true victims of war.
IMO they are all a bunch of weak cowardly bastard.
ancianita
(36,097 posts)claims must be upheld to the letter. There are no interpretations allowed, and only one to two approved translations for distribution to the West. Those who have consorted with Western style governments and organizations, or its militaries, have been slaughtered, Muslim or not.
It's not surprising that such a wing of Islam refuses to recognizes any international laws.
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)Anyone who would write or interpret scripture to permit this should have his balls shoved down his throat and his penis up his ass before being burned alive.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)humanity committed by ISIS. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7073413
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)They have different rules and cultural mores than us.
It is way past the time this was acknowledged.
In fact, the very idea that there can be a war crime is a Western idea, one of very recent origin.
They fight war differently. In fact, there is a good argument that they are fighting a new generation of war that the US is too culturally ridgid to fight effectively.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Wrong is wrong. Treating women like chattel is wrong. It ALWAYS is and has always been wrong; we just refused to see it for a long time. These barbarians see things differently, but they are still barbarians, by any objective standard. Fuck them and their "mores". They belong in hell.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)I'd be on board with making a donation to help arrange their trip.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)There was a scene where White Men first pulled up on the shore of Japan.
They hadn't had a real bath in months, their clothes were in rags, they were covered with lice....
and smelled BAD.
The Japanese decided among themselves that they were facing barbarian savages.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts) hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Reactionary fundamentalist religion almost always racks up the longest list of atrocities against basic human rights. This is 2015, not 850, CE.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)than not, so none of your post makes sense.
EL34x4
(2,003 posts)An American soldier, or any Western soldier for that matter who raped a civilian would go to prison. This is true today, and it was true 70 years ago.
Our enemies have no such restrictions. I think this was the point that was trying to be made, that ISIS would fight much differently than we do.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)frowned upon, it was rarely punished. I think that the organization and scale of it are well documented is the difference.
EL34x4
(2,003 posts)That raping civilians is not frowned upon at all. In fact, it is encouraged.
American soldiers today are professionals and I believe the overwhelming majority of them would find the notion of raping civilians repugnant. And yes, I know it has happened, but the practice is not enshrined in our military culture, certainly not encouraged or even given tacit approval. American soldiers who engaged in this behavior would be viewed as psychopaths by their fellow soldiers.
Our enemies, however, have no such moral or legal constraints placed on their ability to fight total war. So how do you fight a culture that is willing to engage in such barbarities?
I think one issue is we've never been occupied. We have no idea what it is like to live under an enemy army who rapes and murders on a whim.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Japan to Korea, etc. We have done it to though, and it seems we are just starting to punish people when they do. Women suffer during wartime pretty mightily too.
dougolat
(716 posts)The American experience was that of BEING the occupier, unless one is Native American, or an involuntary African immegrant.
I believe we have more than a few refugees who have seen this kind of behavior in places that the war-mongers are having their way.
You're right, such behavior is totally unacceptable, but so is our "collateral damage" slaughter of civilians, and creation of millions of refugees who may fall prey to similarly inhumane treatment.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)and using Midnight Raids to terrorize the locals,
rape and murder happen more often than we would like to admit.
For Freddie
(79 posts)German women French women all women were raped in war and in WWII. We write down in "law" it is forbidden or punishable.This is not so, but in the field it happens all the time. Very few are held accountable. It is the "unwritten" law of war that rape is one of the perks. The Band of Brothers do not rat out on each other with this male perogitive. It has always been part of War. It will always be part of War. War IS Hell. Those who fight are traumatized in ways those who never experienced it can never know.
Part of traumatization is acting out on others spontaneously. Women and children have ALWAYS been used in this way in every war by every kind of nation and country. It is part of WAR. Many do not like to think about this or own it. We all choose sides in the war/sports culture, and you know, Merica. But the reality, forensically, is rape is a traditional part of War in male culture.
Now slave trade and openly selling and bartering in children in this organized way with scripture or rules upholding it have been around a while too. We in our culture have been sheltered from the realities always present so wars can happen and increase profits, resources, lands.
Added to this is the destruction and butchery of nature, animals and environments. There is NO upside to war. What I have difficulty accepting is there is always "justification" and the rah rah crew every time one is hatched and I watched my brother buy in to it all.
Even Teddy Roosevelt had to loose his son Kermit to fully understand what war was REALLY about. That is how thick pro war
males often are. There is a kind of detachment and denial present.
Every new generation gets horrified when the reality emerges.
Viet Nam was no picnic for girls and children. NO WAR IS.
Men in groups organized and trained in violence are intentionally trained to be barbaric. That is what war is about.
EL34x4
(2,003 posts)You're comparing unsanctioned acts of brutality committed by American soldiers with ISIS's policy that rape is "halal" --acceptable, sanctioned and scripturally appropriate.
Did American soldiers rape French women? I'm sure it happened. Did they rape German women? Again, I'm sure this also happened although what we would now call "rape" was in 1944 closer to quid pro quo prostitution. "You want food? F*** me."
Vietnam? It gets a little uglier. Nonetheless, the notion that American G.I.s were raping Vietnamese girls left and right is more or less a Hollywood myth. Yes, it happened. It probably happened a lot. There was also a lot of again, quid pro quo sex taking place. But it was never sanctioned by the U.S. military as acceptable behavior.
When the Red Army marched westward into Berlin, there was a lot of real, actual, forced, merciless violent rape committed against German women. This is well documented. This was also payback. The prior German occupation of western Soviet areas wasn't exactly fun and games.
Does it suck for women and children in times of war? Yes, it sure does.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)We have identified a Y-chromosomal lineage with several unusual features. It was found in 16 populations throughout a large region of Asia, stretching from the Pacific to the Caspian Sea, and was present at high frequency: ∼8% of the men in this region carry it, and it thus makes up ∼0.5% of the world total. The pattern of variation within the lineage suggested that it originated in Mongolia ∼1,000 years ago. Such a rapid spread cannot have occurred by chance; it must have been a result of selection. The lineage is carried by likely male-line descendants of Genghis Khan, and we therefore propose that it has spread by a novel form of social selection resulting from their behavior.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180246/
Ghengis Khan conquered a good part of the world around him, and apparently he and his offspring raped and married and reproduced and some of us today carry reminders of his aggression.
What ISIS is doing is criminal.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)The way that the US and the other western powers fight wars nowadays are a result to study and doctrine taught to our military. We believe there are rules, laws even that govern warfare. Your last line, that what ISIS is doing is criminal, reflects such a mindset.
Well, ISIS does not consider themselves criminals. In fact, they think what they are doing is good and holy.
ISIS does not fight according to our rules. If they did, they would die. They cannot make or operate advanced military equipment. They cannot transport themselves in military vehicles, since the Air Force is overhead. So they drive civilian cars. They don't wear uniforms. They infiltrate instead of invade. All of which are war crimes.
My personal feeling, despite ISIS' widespread support of the Sunni tribes, ISIS has placed themselves outside international law. They do not get to invoke the protections of international law if they do not respect it.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)children.
i did not mean to suggest that what they are doing is civilized or that it can be ended only through the means that we are now using.
But we have fought wars against rapists before. ISIS' problem is that as soon as it establishes itself in a territory, it has to protect that territory. Sooner or later it has to do that. And when that happens it will be, and as that happens, it is vulnerable to invasion and traditional warfare.
But rape as a means of demonstrating the subjugation of a conquered people is not new. It causes the subjugated people to hate their conquerors.
It is a war crime whether the aggressors guilt of it fight in conventional ways or not.
I have no doubt that our military is thinking of ways to defeat the unconventional methods of ISIS and that our military will succeed.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)as we saw during the bush administration with torture easily ignored. But your point is right: There are international laws against this kind of brutality. What are we going to do about it when we are not even following those rules anymore.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)the rails is not comparable to ISIS.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)
Dorian Gray
(13,496 posts)and raped by ISIS see the difference.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)-------------------
Survivors say that men and women were separated within the first hour of their capture. Adolescent boys were told to lift up their shirts, and if they had armpit hair, they were directed to join their older brothers and fathers. In village after village, the men and older boys were driven or marched to nearby fields, where they were forced to lie down in the dirt and sprayed with automatic fire.
--------------------
One 34-year-old Yazidi woman, who was bought and repeatedly raped by a Saudi fighter in the Syrian city of Shadadi, described how she fared better than the second slave in the household — a 12-year-old girl who was raped for days on end despite heavy bleeding.
“He destroyed her body. She was badly infected. The fighter kept coming and asking me, ‘Why does she smell so bad?’ And I said, she has an infection on the inside, you need to take care of her,” the woman said.
Unmoved, he ignored the girl’s agony, continuing the ritual of praying before and after raping the child.
“I said to him, ‘She’s just a little girl,’ ” the older woman recalled. “And he answered: ‘No. She’s not a little girl. She’s a slave. And she knows exactly how to have sex.’ ’’
“And having sex with her pleases God,” he said.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)if the Imaginary Skydaddy approves.
How low can humans sink while justifying their sheer barbarism with a book of fairy tales called "religion? This gives one a fairly good idea. 
snort
(2,334 posts)riversedge
(70,243 posts)
6chars
(3,967 posts)do you want another war?
Yupster
(14,308 posts)someone can do something about these guys.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)and I don't think bombing ISIS will stop this.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)artislife
(9,497 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)First I hope there is a rescue organization for these girls and second a UN and Interpol plan to capture and put these beasts on trial. Lastly, when are we going to arrest and put on trial our war criminals who started all of this?
Coventina
(27,121 posts)Bushco. may have caused Middle Eastern turmoil, but rape is a personal decision.
I want Bush, Cheney, and all the rest in the Hague, for the lies and illegal actions they took.
But these guys are responsible for their own behavior.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)other international agency to arrest them and put them on trial say that? I don't want revenge justice but real justice that sticks. Revenge justice only creates more war and more retaliation revenge cruelties. Did no one learn from the recent wars in the Balkans?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Two things are responsible here, the individuals and religious beliefs.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)situation? I can't believe I'm reading DU holding Bush/Cheney blameless for their crimes.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)You really have no idea of that people have been doing shit like this in the name of their religion for eons, do you?
Yavin4
(35,442 posts)This is sick and evil, no matter what anyone did to these people in the past.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Facility Inspector
(615 posts)And the personal decision you mention becomes codified as acceptable when Sharia law enshrines it.
Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath party didn't have this as a policy prior to the US destabilizing the region.
Coventina
(27,121 posts)But their crimes do not excuse other people's crimes.
Because they destabilized the region, does not mean that ISIS gets a pass on what they do.
The decision to rape ANYONE, little girl or not, is ONLY on the person who decides to rape.
harrose
(380 posts)... just that Bush, Cheney and every Rethug should *also* be charged as accomplices to these murders, rapes, tortures, etc.
Coventina
(27,121 posts)crime.
There would have to be proof presented in court that the Bush administration went into Iraq knowing that their plan would fail, and that ISIS would rise and have this platform of rape as acceptable means of warfare.
What we CAN charge them with is the lies, cover-ups, bribery, corruption, torture, murders, and wrongful imprisonments that they were directly responsible for. That alone would get each of them a life sentence.
But, sadly, I doubt that will ever happen.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)ISIS is committing atrocities in an environment that our government created.
No one is saying that ISIS gets a pass.
Coventina
(27,121 posts)No, it's the fault of the perpetrator who is perhaps following the orders of his superiors in ISIS.
But, as we've seen in war crimes trials past, "just following orders" is not a defense.
A power vacuum, caused by taking out Saddam, is not excuse to rape and murder.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Exactly! I am so sick of these beasts being given a pass due to our interference in the region. Their victims didn't cause this. It's disgusting. Then why don't they come and rape all the neo-cons?
cali
(114,904 posts)
AikidoSoul
(2,150 posts)We are a different culture with different rules and laws. Thank God.
But if you look at DuBai for example, you see a culture where the very wealthiest of men procure very young boys as young as three, to race camels, which is big sport to these guys. They bet a lot of money on the races which are very popular with the wealthiest of the wealthy. The scandal to us is that these young boys are routinely raped. There are many investigative reports on this topic. Forgive me for not providing links as it makes me sick to go there.
If you decide to do so, you will see pictures of the racetracks with signs that say "no cameras allowed" because they want the rest of the world to think that they are now hiring older boys to race. But you will also see young boys when a secret recording is made by investigative reporters. And you will read reports of routine abuse.
We live in a very sick world. Sometimes I just wish I would die so I can stop thinking and worrying about all this evil shit.
Syzygy321
(583 posts)due to the western outcry over little boys (typically poor non-Arab boys IIRC) being bought and sold and forced into a dangerous sport.
I never heard about rape of jockeys - just heard that they were slaves, as young as 3 or 4, and that some died from racing. 
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Seriously, what is wrong with these people? It really seems to be something that is acceptable in their culture.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)To clarify, we set up the horrid situation with our ME adventures that makes it easy for these psychopaths to do this without punishment.
Alittleliberal
(528 posts)This is disturbingly evil and IS is a scourge on the earth. But it is the result of 700 years of very complex history in the region. Saddam was holding back a force that would have unleashed itself eventually and IS will not be the last violent group in the ME. They may just have to slaughter each other until they realize it's madness and that's a profoundly sad thought.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)read "The Iliad."
Alittleliberal
(528 posts)I'm well aware violent history in the ME goes back a very long time. That kind of proves my point even further. The wounds are deep there.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)That IS your post, right?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I did not. Please quote me where I said that. Why are DUers defending Bush/Cheney anyway? They fucked up things so badly that now theses psychopaths are in charge and they deserve blame for opening up the gates of Hell too.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)No one is defending Bush or Cheney or anyone.
And those psychopaths have been doing this shit long before we got there.
History. It's not just for dinner.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)This is ethnic cleansing that happened after we killed everyone we didn't like and installed our own corrupt politicians who began the process. The ethnic cleansing goes on and on and this is part of it. Our country under Bush did this and even though many of us screamed about going to war, many Americans did approve and these innocents are paying the price not them.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)anything goes. In that sense they caused what happened due to that war. Yes, maybe they did not realize the consequences or that they were going to fail but they should have - we told them so. Thousands around the world marched against the war and a few of our own congress voted against it - but they did not listen.
In a war that totally destabilizes a whole region without a clear winner to take over only chaos remains. In that case there is no one left to bring the criminals - like the rapists - to justice or even to stop them. No one to establish justice. Under these conditions bush signed an agreement to leave the area (which President Obama could not repeal) leaving the door open for ISIS. The new ruler who is filling the void.
That does not let anyone off the hook. That takes into account all the criminals involved. What is clearly absent is anyone to take over and reestablish any real justice.
By making this just about the rape of women and children we are forgetting that there is a bigger picture. EVERYONE who was involved in setting up this tragedy should be held morally guilty.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)The UN doesn't have anyone to do that. You want to send Interpol agents there? What are they going to do...pull up and flash their badges and demand war criminals be handed over? Good luck. ISIS will capture them, behead them, and post the video online.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Yet, unless we revert back to being barbarians too, it has got to be one of those agencies. If I thought for a minute that our military could accomplish anything, maybe, they could back the UN and Interpol, but we have made such a fucking mess there in the last twelve years that I don't think our military can help. They don't know how. This country has failed. Now somebody else has to step up to the plate. But it can't be us because we were the original asses in this. Funny how all the anti-war experts predicted that this was exactly what would happen if we started a war in the Middle East. That's why Poppy Bush backed down. Too bad Dimson didn't follow his example.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)JI7
(89,252 posts)Saddam's piece of shit sons would go to schools and pick out girls to rape.
none of this means what Bush did was ok. but those who commit rape are to blame themselves.
Democat
(11,617 posts)That's a DU myth.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I never really understood Vietnam from the news reports until I read Noam, then the whole horror became clear. I lived in South America part of the forties and fifties. I saw first hand what the USA did to enable American companies exploiting those countries and the suffering and genocide the dictators we propped up did that never made the news in North America.
On the Middle East we are especially and almost solely guilty. The coalition of the willing was a farce. Americans, and I'm an American, have to own up to this and admit what has been done in their name.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)definitely responsible for what is going on with Iraq and the surrounding area.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)The right to rape and kill and slaughter is huge in the old testament.
NiceTryGuy
(53 posts)alphafemale
(18,497 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)or Christian culture that condones sexual slavery in 2015.
bvf
(6,604 posts)an expiration date for sanctions described therein.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)to excuse systematic slavery and rape.
And nowhere in the old testament was the rape of prepubertal children ever condoned.
bvf
(6,604 posts)Congratulations on not being one of them, but that doesn't alter the point:
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days."
Exodus 22:16-17 “If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride price for virgins."
I don't see any reference to age, do you?
Noid
(13 posts)They believe that the Old Covenant and Laws of Moses has been superseded by the New Covenant and Laws of Christ.
bvf
(6,604 posts)Most Muslims aren't members of ISIS, either.
And, if I'm not mistaken, the RCC's position remains that practicing homosexuals will burn in hell.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)and use it to light the fires of barbarism and inquisition. Witches were being burned less than 300 years ago.
Noid
(13 posts)Who, lets be honest, was a pretty crummy dude.
Mohammed was merely a prophet.
If you want to talk about real crummy dudes, have a look at god the father, or his kid's earthly mouthpiece, a.k.a. Frank.
cali
(114,904 posts)justify such crap
bvf
(6,604 posts)Because it's not ACTUALLY HAPPENING. It's just some asshole pastor talking shit.
Meanwhile, this ISIS atrocity is REAL and REALLY HAPPENING.
bvf
(6,604 posts)ACTUALLY HAPPENING?
Would you like to compare notes on what christians are doing in the name of their god?
If so, I hope you have some time on your hands, because you're going to need it...
melman
(7,681 posts)So I'm not the person to have that argument. But to throw out this one pastor as some kind of equivilent to ISIS is ridiculous.
you don't want to compare notes.
Good choice. Let me know if you change your mind.
I really am not at all interested in your notes. That's not what this thread's about.
bvf
(6,604 posts)Sorry you've lost interest all of a sudden, now that someone's introduced the ugly side of western religion into the discussion.
Happens a lot.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)Not isolated crazies?
Syzygy321
(583 posts)"Christian government.".
Whereas quite a few state in their constitutions that they are Muslim lands and seek to follow Islamic jurisprudence.
(Separation of mosque and state is a concept frowned upon by most Muslims, since Mohammed didn't suggest it.. One of many reasons Muslims suffer today.)
You will be waiting a while for an answer 
bvf
(6,604 posts)What percentage of the US population agrees with the proposition that their nation is based on "christian" principles? The answer is left as an exercise for the reader (whether or not in need of remediation).
See #116 for more.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)institutionalized, systematic sexual slavery.
Our days of slavery ended long ago and there is no more excuse for ISIS doing this now than we had when it was happening here, ending in the mid 1800's.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)where they systematically encourage slavery and rape.
bvf
(6,604 posts)Care to pick nits? Be my guest.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)or even territory.
bvf
(6,604 posts)Screw cheap semantics. There's any number of religious nutbars telling your neighbor how to vote, and you know it as well as I do.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)by your ridiculous comparisons.
You would probably make the same claims about the Holocaust, based on your arguments here. What ISIS is doing to the Yazidis is genocide. Nothing like religious neighbors here telling people how to vote.
bvf
(6,604 posts)Last edited Fri Aug 14, 2015, 02:46 AM - Edit history (2)
to this country did to Native Americans?
How many African human beings lost their lives in the establishment of what many today take to be a "christian" nation?
What would you call a US representative promoting the inhumane treatment of gays in an African nation?
Are you OK with all this? Perhaps you'd like to retreat further into your semantic cave in order to explain.
And don't go around invoking the Holocaust unless you know what the fuck you're talking about. It doesn't seem as if you do.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)bvf
(6,604 posts)with someone who fell asleep 400 years ago. I have stomach bacteria better informed than that.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)more than a hundred years ago.
The rest of the world has moved ahead. You can't justify ISIS's behavior no matter how hard, and for whatever reason, you try.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)alphafemale
(18,497 posts)True.
But Judism,Christianity and Islam is rooted in much of the same roots.
And American soldiers have raped little girls.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)much less little girls.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)And roughly Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse and Geronimo...maybe.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)
Syzygy321
(583 posts)The roots of the Abrahamic religions are all the same.
But Christianity hopped off its roots and replanted itself
Judaism grew so far from its roots that those roots are now freely mocked and ignored by most. (except the ultra orthodox...sigh).
But Islam is hanging onto its roots so hard it can't grow at all. It is a stubby deformed shrub full o' injustice that could have been a majestic tree.
Maybe eventually it will be.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Manifest destiny was perhaps one of the more recent things perpetuated by American government, people and the Christian religion as genocide embraced as a right.
And of course there was slavery and then Jim Crow
edit - Not wanting to argue. Just many peopl aren't even aware
Syzygy321
(583 posts)...though it "reinvented" many OT stories, which you can find in the Quran.
Again: you seem eager to blame an old book when the problem is not the origins of the religion (everyone was a shithead 3 thousand years ago!) but Islam's inherent inability to jettison old practices.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)I despise all zealotry.
unapatriciated
(5,390 posts)but it is a very real problem in the good ole USA and I'm sure a few of them might be Christians.
http://www.newsweek.com/2015/02/13/sex-slaves-farm-304354.html
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)of what is happening in Iraq has no parallels here.
Syzygy321
(583 posts)Sheesh - see people looking at horror and rushing to minimize it? Over and over and over on this thread.
Protecting the reputation of Muslims and Islam is (to many in this crowd) more important than actual people's actual nightmare. It's pathetic.
The deflectors and handwavers feel smug and self-congralatory because they are showing "tolerance.". Goody for them. Gold fucking star.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)It's more important for some people to prove that they are "tolerant" of religious beliefs than it is for them to express horror at the very real trauma that actual human beings are going through. Especially when those human beings happen to be female.
Syzygy321
(583 posts)Person A: "did ya hear about the Missouri cop killing the unarmed black kid?"
Person B: "Yeah, and back during the Crusades, the French and English police used to drown street children in rivers, like kittens. Police have always been bad: throughout history and around the world."
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)*sigh*
arcane1
(38,613 posts)We should all be grateful that Christians and Jews don't take their holy book as seriously as these lunatics in ISIS do.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Just about all of the conservative christian ideologies objectify and demean women.
Right now. In 2015.
Syzygy321
(583 posts)With its emphasis on patriarchy and strict gender roles - is somewhat similar to mainstream Islam
Of course instead of burqas and honor killings and female genital mutilation and unequal divirce rights and the specified right of a husband to beat disobedient wives and polygamy and crappy custody rules and the notion that a man's reputation lies in keeping female relatives supervised and chaste at all times,
it has purity balls.
Same pressure to conform, yes. Same hierarchy with women at the bottom, used as brood mares.
Remember: that is the comparison between Quiverful (which liberals hate) and Islam (which they insist on defending and excusing). Very strange, how liberals respond differently to two similar religious movements.
Mainstream Islam is MORE misogynist than Quiverful. Extremist Islam is more misogynist than Jack the Ripper.
How do I know? It was once my world.
But please: keep throwing up those deflections. Makes you feel "tolerant" doesn't it?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)The question was asked what christian ideology was similar. I answered.
IOW, what's your problem?
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)
Syzygy321
(583 posts)exactly?
Islam has a problem.
It's problem is that
(a) it is fundamentalist - the Quran is taken as the unadulterated word of God
And (b) It preaches that as Mohammed was the best of men, it is recommended that all followers for all times follow his 7th century example.
It has chained itself to medieval mores. And since it also declares that blasphemers should be punished, few people dare to challenge those mores.
Guess what: Mohammed took women as slaves. ISIS is following his lead. They say that this makes them good Muslims. They have a pretty strong theological point. And the Muslims of the world - the sane ones - don't want to face this, so they obfuscate instead.
Please don't enable the excuse-makers. Christianity and Judaism, in their mainstream forms have (mostly) ditched te OT nonsense in favor of broader beliefs like "Do unto others" or "Raping is bad because, well, it just is. No matter what Lot said to the mob outside his door."
Don't you want the same for Islam?
Duppers
(28,125 posts)because I didn't take it that way.
You hit the nail when saying the blame lies in fundamentalism.
But why did "holy books" include such misogynistic, xenophobic, sadistic bullshit to begin with? And why would any thinking, rational person follow it? Any of it, in any religion?
Yes, I know I answered my own question.
Syzygy321
(583 posts)When the Martians land here in a thousand years and stroll around the smoking ruins of America, they are gonna be saying, "Why the hell did these wacky people embrace all this nutty stuff that benefitted the humans on top and hurt the ones who were not on top? Gleep! Urg! Lunatics!"
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)elias49
(4,259 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)is about as close as language can come.
Makes one ashamed to belong to the same species. I am speechless.
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)Mohammad did it, so Islam teaches it is right and proper to treat girls and women this way.
(Beginning the countdown to how many seconds it is before I am flamed for pointing this out.) 
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)I don't think most Muslims condone sexual slavery and child rape.
In fact, there were big protests over that in Pakistan just yesterday.
John Poet
(2,510 posts)Their fanaticism is just their 'excuse'... as if there can be one...
Logical
(22,457 posts)
Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)Mankinds worst invention.
Logical
(22,457 posts)bvf
(6,604 posts)some people really love playing, "Your god is more reprehensible than my god."
It's sickening.
It really is sickening. Nothing more absurd than some fundy trying to give an atheist the business.
Cheers!
Response to pnwmom (Original post)
Post removed
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)this mistreatment.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
V0ltairesGh0st
(306 posts)she said she'd rahter die, and the bastards killed her ? Of course... fucking animals.
Demit
(11,238 posts)See
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)She wasn't killed, but she didn't return to her parents. Her parents continued with the tradition of marrying their daughters off at a young age. Her sister married at the age of 12, I think.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Oh god, the poor little thing! I am just heartbroken! Sometimes I just want off this f**ing planet.
I am so disgusted, but mostly sad more than anything. These poor children.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)fine by me , but jesus Christ already with the Muslim/Islam bashing. Have you seriously not heard of the polygamy nutcracker shit going on in TX & UT? No, they aren't buying girls they are just marrying their daughters/cousins/half sister's whatever but it's still in the name of magic fairy sky creatures. You want to throw the Jews in their too, well since their asses are sitting in Israel committing every war crime known to man.
So once again, there are assholes of every single religion out there. There are also amazing people out there who far outweigh the dipshits, enough of this is normal Islam bullshit because it is wrong.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)To the little girl in the video in post #30. Were she still alive to hear it
This pre-human barbarism is the policy of what amounts to a growing state.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)Stop throwing everyone into your big bag of hatred because some assholes are using the exact same logic as assholes here to do damn near same thing. The major difference is the ones here usually get married off to their uncle Steve in the cult instead of selling them.
Congrats on being a complete hypocrite.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)But almost anywhere in the world you look the worst atrocities of the last 1500 years have been committed in the name of religion. With gawd in your side nothing is forbidden of you act in his name.
The history of the Abrahamic religions, most particularly christianity and islam, is best represented by an ocean of the blood of innocents. There is much to be lived down but I don't think the sun will last long enough.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)later interview here:
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I am so relieved.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)And Jeffords, who was involved in child rape, DID go to prison.
The difference is that these people are accountable to no one, are both raping and killing, and control a huge territory.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)the world popo to fix that problem for you. Now, your OP title blatantly states that nothing is comparable to what ISIS is doing is just nonsense & you are broad brushing a huge swath of ppl that have nothing to do with these creeps simply because they're Muslim that's wrong.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)My OP was about ISIS. Period.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)that ISIS is getting their ideas directly from the Quran. How is that about Muslims , especially when you lead with a heading such as yours?
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)It is indisputable that ISIS is claiming to be inspired by the Quran, but most other Muslims don't interpret the Quran in the same way.
So this is NOT about Muslims, it's about ISIS.
Syzygy321
(583 posts)it's medieval roots and enshrining ancient practices for all times.
Muslims are taught that they are rewarded for following Mohammed's example.
Mohammed waged war and took conquered women as slaves and shared them out to his fighters..
Most Muslims of today are shy about doing this because it doesn't fit in well with their lifestyles. And they mostly don't want to think about it.
ISIS is not shy. They follow the Prophet. Just like Islam says.
sub.theory
(652 posts)Is Muhammad the perfect man? Because that is textbook Islam. We can discuss once you answer.
For those who think Christianity is comparable, btw, Christians seek to emulate the perfect life of Jesus Christ.
Syzygy321
(583 posts)women ("right hand possessions"
is lawful.
That is different from saying that raping them is okay. One can assume that only voluntary sex is lawful perhaps.
OTOH Moahmmed and friends acquired slave women by killing their fathers and husbands and conquering their tribes, so one must wonder how willing those women were, to have sex with the enemy.
I do remember hearing of a Hadith in which M is asked by his men if slave women are lawful sex targets, and M answers that God is fine with it.
it isn't done by most Muslims because many have quietly moved with the times, and slaves are taken only in battle. But I am not aware of any way to declare a practice of Mohammed's to be religiously "passé"..
Admitting that some things M did are againat human rights ofً today, would be counter to Islam. Until it reforms, which, let's keep hoping!
world wide wally
(21,744 posts)to rationalize his sick actions. They do it in all languages.
John Poet
(2,510 posts)giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)Muslim bashing couldn't occur.
sub.theory
(652 posts)These monsters sincerely believe they are righteous. They explicitly reference the Quran to justify what they are doing. These are ultra devout Muslims. They've shown they are willing to die for it. We must not underestimate them. Thinking they are not utterly committed is dangerous wishful thinking. They are determined to continue this fight forever. They want this everywhere.
world wide wally
(21,744 posts)If they didn't have their religion, they would probably be murderers and rapists anyway.
These people are as close to evil as I have ever seen.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)I believe it is the very reason these ridiculous mythologies were put out there as the beliefs of the supernatural ruler of the entire universe of 100 billion galaxies.
It's all preposterous, and it has had disastrous consequences for women on the planet for centuries.
Duppers
(28,125 posts)DUers should remember the justification ISIS is using to fight their wars: religion.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)
blackspade
(10,056 posts)These are not religious people.
They are mentally unhinged rapists and murderers.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Chapter and verse out if their Big Book of Fairytales. Sounds like religion to me.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)they're loathsome behavior.
Like most things religious perversion seems to be norm with many 'believers'
jalan48
(13,870 posts)Women were considered to be just a step above the livestock. This wasn't a joke, the men really believed they were superior to women in all ways. As many problems as we have in the US we are light years ahead of these people.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)ass if he dared that shit with me. 
jalan48
(13,870 posts)giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)Why are Muslims being stereotyped like this, here?
jalan48
(13,870 posts)He provides free dentistry to low income and homeless people as part of his practice. He walks his faith.
melman
(7,681 posts)This is an article about something real that's really happening in the real world. Would you rather it be ignored?
pscot
(21,024 posts)and you will learn why.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)We are Americans living as Americans, he is an American Muslim that thinks what they are doing is fucked up. Kind of like how I would assume most white people feel about Warren Jeff's, or am I to assume that's how your women are treated as well?
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)They are however, very much Muslims doing this. Genuine, real believers. Just a small number of them.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)It's in there for fucks sake
Maybe you could let them know it's not all Muslims
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)that fucking one? Yes I did maybe you can fucking point out where it fucking implies all fucking Muslims?
Duppers
(28,125 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Sheesh!
Syzygy321
(583 posts)And the results of what it teaches are widely apparent in Muslim-majority countries.
American Muslims are better off than most because the women are at least partly protected by non-Muslim laws. (For example, Islam does not permit a woman to divorce her husband unless special circumstances exist.). The mainstream American belief in male/female equality percolates into many Muslim families, and that's a great thing.
But only a blind person would deny Islam'a problems. Best of luck to you guys, though.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)Moderate Muslims, like moderate Christians, are all too willing to overlook the passages that do, in fact, lend themselves to extremists and "traditionalists." I encourage you to watch the second Nada al-Ahdal video. Pay particular attention to the man who defends the custom.
mythology
(9,527 posts)they realize those passages aren't valid for lack of a better way to put it. But much like you don't cut all the boring parts about burning whale blubber out of Moby Dick, you don't delete the parts of religious texts that are obviously not meant to still be used.
But there are two types of things in religious texts that aren't valid. The more innocuous like the prohibition on eating certain types of meat 3,000 years ago was probably a good idea for survival as they didn't get things like bacteria.
As for the more violent aspects like owning slaves or stoning people to death, that was generally a long time ago (more so for Christianity than Islam), and as a species we take our sweet time getting our shit together.
If humanity is still around in 3000 years, how do you think they are going to look back and realize it took as long as it has for same sex marriage to start to become a societal norm or that we can't figure out a way to get food to starving kids in Africa?
Also, I think you understate the role of economics and governments in fermenting these fanatics. Many Middle Eastern countries have used religion to keep their citizens from asking about things like voting and why the guy in charge of the country keeps so much of the money. These governments use religion as a way to distract from their own problems.
Some people use religion to act like assholes, some to do good. Take Jimmy Carter or Martin Luther King Jr. Faith for both of them helped shape their world view and their public works.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)if we could remove the "word of god" from the understanding. That these flawed texts are considered by many to be divinely inspired at it's most innocuous, or the immutable story of god and morality ... I find that impossible to reconcile with a reasonable and moral viewpoint. I too am an atheist, but I come from a background where the Bible was held in some sacred space. And even if you didn't take the creation story literally, there was something to be learned from it. If we could remove the divine from it, I'd not have a problem with it.
Syzygy321
(583 posts)that you two are together; that you are happy, and that you are not taking second place behind him.
I think relationships like yours are going to solten Islam for future generations.
Stay who you are! It's a great contribution to the world if it works out. I would just caution you not to be blind if danger signs crop up - as they sometimes do.
Duppers
(28,125 posts)Last edited Fri Aug 14, 2015, 08:17 PM - Edit history (1)
had a Turkish Muslim boyfriend and he did pull that shit with me. I suppose many of them have evolved now, at least the westernized ones.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Marengo
(3,477 posts)at least for women in ISIS controlled territory...and Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan, and Pakistan, and so on.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)
progressoid
(49,991 posts)The IRC report, Let Me Not Die Before My Time: Domestic Violence in West Africa, based on data collected over 10 years by the IRC in Sierra Leone, Liberia and Ivory Coast, said domestic violence is the "most urgent, pervasive and significant protection issue for women in west Africa".
It calls on the international community to recognise domestic violence as a humanitarian issue and to increase funding significantly to address the problem, saying: "If the humanitarian community ignores what has been considered a 'private matter', it will fail to confront one of the most significant public health crises and primary obstacles to women's empowerment in post-war societies."
http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2012/may/22/domestic-violence-west-africa-irc
From 2012:
Hence, African societies attach more value and importance to a male child than to a female child. Ten daughters are not worth a son. No woman is regarded as complete or real until she gives birth to a male. Delivering a son gives a woman pride and a place at her husband’s home. It is said that every married woman stands with one leg in her husband’s house until she gives birth to a male child.
http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/igew20120203
Relationship with Islam
Islam is a male-made religion, founded on masculinity, patriarchy, and male domination. It is notorious for its repression, subjugation, and discrimination against women. Islamic religion portrays women as inferior to men in every respect-spiritually, physically, mentally, and even intellectually. Islam’s holy book, the Koran, divinely sanctions and decrees this negative impression. The Koran has been corroborated by the Hadiths (traditions of Muhammad’s sayings and deeds) and perpetuated by the interpretation of the mullahs, the sheiks, and the imams.
As in the traditional African context, men are regarded as superior to women. “Men are in charge of women because Allah hath made one to excel the other” (Sura 4:34). Male children are preferred to females that bring gloom and despair. As Sura 43:15 relates: “yet when a new-born girl is announced to one of them his countenance darkens and he is filled with gloom.”
sub.theory
(652 posts)There are indeed no words. I am ENRAGED reading that before I was too mad to continue. These are the Nazis of our time.
MBS
(9,688 posts)I recently heard a talk by an African diplomat - from a country where ISIS does not yet (the diplomat said nervously) have a toehold. Despite the religious language, the diplomat said, "ISIS has nothing to do with religion. These people are criminals and thugs."
This latest unspeakable horror supports that diplomat's assertion in spades.
As you said, absolute evil.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Feeling the Bern
(3,839 posts)Tell me what any religion offers women.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)Juicy_Bellows
(2,427 posts)Edit - i reread this and it sounded a little snarky. That is not my intent. Cheers!
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)That's what religion is all about.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)The poor in those parts of the world lack material possessions. The promise that after their short, hungry lives there exists an eternal paradises is irresistible to them.
No antidepressants either. Maybe religion is their prozac.
sub.theory
(652 posts)The argument that people joining ISIS are doing so because they are poor just doesn't hold up. There are thousands of young men from comfortable middle class backgrounds that are joining ISIS. These men are coming not from the third world, but from Europe, Australia, and the US. Many are college educated. Clearly there is some other draw. This makes many uncomfortable because the answer is clearly Islam. They are doing what they sincerely believe is devotion to Allah and are hoping to be eternally rewarded for it.
Is that fucked up? Oh yeah! It's beyond fucked up. But it's the truth and we had better start coming to grips with it. These monsters are not going to stop. Not ever. They are not going to be appeased. They are not going to tire out. They are not going to be deterred by casualties. This is holy war and they want martyrdom. They have plainly told us so. They openly declare that they seek to conquer the world, and in their fanaticism believe they will. They are incredibly dangerous, and sooner or later the fight is coming whether we like it or not.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)absolute power over somebody. Namely women and children. It gives them an opportunity to dominate in their own small little way and regain a sense of power again. Of course, its sick and appeals to extremely weak men, but I imagine it's like a drug for their flimsy little egos.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)in 2015 that is using the excuse of religion to systematically engage in sexual slavery and murder.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)For many, this is just another example of religion doing what it does best.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Not all religions.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Did you really enter into this just to scold me?
Syzygy321
(583 posts)"The Quran spoke to me.". (And having read a lot of the Quran I find that astonishing. But he'll, some people think Kerouac spoke to them.)
Some are looking for something - meaning, maybe? - and the rituals and rules offer that.
Some people like it for the same reason they like tapioca pudding. It's a taste.
Some women are drawn in by the propaganda: "The west treats you as a sex object but is Islam you are respected".
Some want the accessories: a community of believers; a handsome foreign man.
Some want that old-timey gender role thing.
Who knows? We are all different and we like what we like. People are weird, basically - all of us
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)GaYellowDawg
(4,447 posts)Then all of these bastards would be castrated. That way, they couldn't rape anyone else, and they couldn't pass their defective genes on to the next generation.
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)Syzygy321
(583 posts)And
(here is where I may be accused of bigotry)
the fact is that mohammed and his men really did take females as war booty and share them out. And when asked, he told his men that war booty was halal (allowable) for sex.
That wouldnt be a problem if Islam had ever severed itself from its wacky seventh-century roots... but it refuses to. See, Mohammed is all-but-worshipped, and a major stipulation of the religion is that one should try to copy his actions and follow his edicts.
So the ISIS guys are pretty well justified in what they are doing.
OTOH: some imams will say that Mohammed's history of taking sex slaves is tempered or negated by other hadiths: ones that insist on good treatment of slaves.
Basically, normal Muslims are kinda embarrassed about the raping-murdering Muslims, and work hard to find reasons why the raping-murdering parts of the Quran and hadiths are not applicable - or are misunderstood.
But Muslima never want to face what i think is the central issue, which is this:
By saying it is Sunnah (recommended) to do what big Mo did, the religion has chained itself to the sayings and actions of a seventh-century warlord. And while he was probably more enlightened than a lot of ancient warlords, he really wasn't twenty-first century material, no matter how hard you squint at the pages.
In sum: the whole slave-rape thing is pretty damn problematic for Muslims, if they think about it honestly without shirking (hah, pun-intended, for those who get it!). They mostly hand-wave it though, in my experience. As they do with many many unjust things.
But as problematic as it is for Muslims, it is way more so for Yazidis...
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)but Islam doesn't hold a monopoly on terrible acts being committed in the name of religion.
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/08/florida-couple-accused-of-raping-orphaned-teen-for-years-and-using-the-bible-to-justify-it/
<snip>
Rob and Marie Johnson reportedly believe in Old Testament law regarding marriage, under which a man can have many wives who are ultimately his property. The girl was ordered to call Jeff “Master” and to submit to his and Marie’s sexual advances whenever they ordered her to.
The Johnsons reportedly preyed on the young girl’s fear of being abandoned by telling her that if she wanted to be part of their family, she had to have sex with them.
“If she did not, the threat was that she would be turned over to state custody,” Herrington said.
<snip>
melman
(7,681 posts)Would you have felt the need to post an article involving Islam for some kind of balance? I'm guessing not.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)no one religion holds a monopoly on treating women terribly. And, as I also said, the acts described in the OP are horrible.
People here who know me know why islamophobia is a sensitive subject with me. I'll leave it at that.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)ISIS doesn't speak for all Muslims. It only speaks for itself.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)comparable to your example?
ISIS is not Islam. It is a particular evil sect with its own particular beliefs, that claims to draw inspiration from the Quran. But the vast majority of Muslims have nothing to do with ISIS.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)In ISIS case they ARE the local government.
niyad
(113,358 posts)
gordianot
(15,242 posts)In North Africa women always followed the camels had to pick up droppings for fuel. Noticing during the war men would walk behind the camel and pick up droppings he asked the guide if there was some sort of change in customs or treatment of women. Answer "no land mines".
Being female in a large part of the world is definitely hard and dangerous.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts) roscoeroscoe
(1,370 posts)Shutting these a-holes down is my idea of a just war.
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)You first.
roscoeroscoe
(1,370 posts)On duty right now, as it happens.
6chars
(3,967 posts)no one at DU supports actually using force over something like this.
melman
(7,681 posts)makes people trip over themselves to say "what about this! and this! these people do bad things too!" the way this one does. It's absolutely nuts.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)like radical Islam. I suspect that is why they are defending it. Just a theory.
Rex
(65,616 posts)The BFEE has a lot of blood on it's hands. A never ending supply. The GOP loves them some dictators and repressive regimes...yet pretends to be pro-military, pro-security and pro-liberty. They helped create this vile wicked mess and don't give two shits about the poor souls left behind. Never have. When did they ever?
How decades of GOP BULLSHIT is still even permissible, boggles my mind. The GOP is the party of Evil, they create monsters that wreck havok on the world and never get held accountable for any mayhem. Right now they are foaming mad that Obama just might broker a deal with Iran and LOWER the risk of nuclear weapons ever being made.
I wonder if they even understand their role in the destruction of America and other parts of the world? I almost find it impossible to believe they think they are 'helping'. Not even helping themselves, helping usher in a mass extinction while smiling and waving it on.
And NONE of them care about the billion dollar gray market, I would bet money some of them are active participants.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)atrocities and ethnic cleansing and BFEE has nothing to do with it.
Rex
(65,616 posts)that would fall on their sword for Bush and his evil band of warmongers. Makes ya wonder why they knee jerk at your true claim. Saddam had his country under control. Now he is dead and Iraq is an even worse hellhole...but some here only want to hear what they want to hear. Truth hurts their feelings and gives them a sadz.
At best, Bush/Cheney are indirectly responsible for ISIS and whatever other asshole groups that pop up, it is their legacy and if people here don't like to hear that - they should go over to freeperville and post since they will be in agreement with the freepers. Then they can love them some BFEE all day long with like-minded thinkers.
senz
(11,945 posts)Have seen that sort of blanket denial of a person's perceptions with a wall of denials and refusal to even try to understand the person's point of view, both online and in RL. It always takes the form of a pile on, it's ugly and I hate it that people ever do that to others. I think it's a kind of relational aggression game, underhanded, completely unkind. I'm sorry you went through that. Hope you're okay. I cannot be the only person who read it with increasing discomfort.
As for the perps: pffft. 
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I've been a soccer ball at times by those who don't like me.
senz
(11,945 posts)and be extra nice to yourself when you need to. Take care.
senz
(11,945 posts)
JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)Except that it adds to the nausea.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)to die.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)your attempt at cynicism and its concomitant mockery is a big FAIL.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)"real evidence" or not.
Time will tell how much of this was bullshit and we'll be on to another villain.
And if you think there isn't a real interest in keeping the war-machine in the Middle east going, then...
big gullibility FAIL
Duppers
(28,125 posts)problem?!!
Bye.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)Bye.
JI7
(89,252 posts)they know what they are doing and why they are going. they aren't some misunderstood types.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)You got women and children being raped by psycho-religious fanatic terrorists in the mid-east and the biggest concern for many progressives here to this story is if muslims might have their feelings hurt if we criticize the religion. Yet when Christians do something evil, we apply it to the entire religion, the entire bible, every church, and the entire Republican party. Do we care if their feelings are hurt?
Sad thing is, the White House would likely have the same reaction, fearing that criticizing Islam might give ammunition to social conservatives. Therefore, no attention will be paid to this. Sad politics has fallen to that level in this country.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)My worry is it will be used as justification for more war, which I really doubt will stop the madness.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)When one reads of America turning a blind eye to slavery and sex trafficking (TPP and Malaysia is but one of many examples), then it is quite apparent our ruling Plutocracy is saying Money Trumps Human Rights. The stories written about the victims in Malaysia are equally as horrid as the one in the OP, yet our priority there is to set up industries that will profit from the very slavery we the people abhor.
As long as we continue to elect those who serve a Plutocracy that profits from human misery, we will continue to gasp and clutch our pearls over the consequences of their warring ways. In Iraq, the war crimes we committed there precludes us from claiming any kind of moral superiority. It is what it is along with a huge target now painted on our backs.
US Upgrades Malaysia/Cuba/Saudi Arabia In Human Trafficking Report
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)But is there any quicker way to help these women?
questionseverything
(9,656 posts)enemy combatants had their children raped in front of them to get them to talk....
which is why this is so true....
<As long as we continue to elect those who serve a Plutocracy that profits from human misery, we will continue to gasp and clutch our pearls over the consequences of their warring ways. In Iraq, the war crimes we committed there precludes us from claiming any kind of moral superiority. It is what it is along with a huge target now painted on our backs. >>
6chars
(3,967 posts)we can sign it and send it to their leadership telling them we do not support it and wish they would stop.
Oneironaut
(5,504 posts)The rapist was only reading the Koran to justify his actions...
Could it be that backwards religions provide a shield and give justification for losers to do vile things? The problem is, and always has been religion.
Duppers
(28,125 posts)sub.theory
(652 posts)The constant need for a certain segment of the the left to defend the honor of Islam, perhaps the single most anti-progressive ideology on Earth, just blows my mind. I don't believe this is at all representative of the left in general, but these folks are not helping by defending a truly troublesome ideology.
Islam is a religion that:
1) Condones slavery of non-Muslims
2) Condones rape of non-Muslims
3) Condones the torture and slaughter of non-Muslims
4) Condones the beating of wives
5) Demands that Muslims subjugate all non-Muslims
6) Stipulates barbaric punishments for crimes such as stoning, beheading, limb amputations, and crucifixion
7) Mandates holy war against non-Muslims
8) Subjugates women
9) Mandates death for anyone who leaves Islam
10) Allows for the marriage of underage, literally pre-teen, girls
11) Is inherently anti-Semitic and Jews are viciously vilified in the Quran
12) Mandates death for homosexuality
These are the teachings that ISIS and other extremist Islamic groups use to justify their monstrous crimes. All of it has clear basis in Quran and Hadith. Contrary to what some want to believe, these extremist groups are ultra-devout Muslims. They are explicitly seeking to replicate the Islam practiced by Muhammad, which they see as the only true Islam. This is what Salafist ideology is all about.
I can't understand why Christianity is often simultaneous vilified by the same crowd. It seems like a massive double standard. Christianity, which teaches peace, tolerance, non-violence, good acts, mercy, and forgiveness of EVERYONE is viciously vilified by this same crowd. They constantly refer to the Old Testament due to ignorance about Christian theology and the concept of the New Covenant which supersedes the Old Testament laws. I'll just never understand how a religion that aligns far more closely with progressive ideals is so hated and one so utterly opposed is staunchly defended.
Extremist Islam has openly declared war on us. They have told us so. Don't think for a minute that these extremist monsters won't hesitate to kill us, enslave us, rape us, and subjugate us. That is exactly what they have explicitly stated is their goal. Why are we not able to take them at their word? They have certainly proven in Iraq and Syria that they mean what they say.
There are indeed Muslims that don't interpret the Quran in such an extremist way. Perhaps we will be able to work with them. But they will have to work to seriously combat this extremist ideology. And that is hard to do, because it has clear basis in the Quran and Hadith. Rejecting either is apostasy and punishable by death. We have a real problem. Part of this fight will be combating this ideology. I don't see any other solution. And moderate Muslims have got to get on board or they are indeed part of the problem. So are those who rush to defend Islam.
Ex Lurker
(3,814 posts)and some progressives are extremely reluctant to criticize the third world. They ignore things like this when they can. When they can't they try to deflect, shift the blame, and draw moral equivalents.
Duppers
(28,125 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Absolutely fact-based.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,371 posts)for you!
Fucking inbred, backward, superstitious douchebags.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)I don't think bombing them is the answer.
But they are armed and demented fanatics-- how does one get them to stop this insanity?
CanonRay
(14,104 posts)No slight to animals intended. They should be hounded to the ends of the earth as were the Nazis.
librechik
(30,674 posts)not that every man is a rapist, thank god. But that highly conformist culture tells these boys they must do this to be real men, real Muslims. Western culture while significantly different of course, does the same in its own way.
mopinko
(70,132 posts)for unattached men to go explore new places and plant their seeds.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)mopinko
(70,132 posts)the most compelling drive of any organism is to pass on that dna packet. land helps, but when you are not likely to end up with any of that land, because you are low on the totem pole, you need a better reason to risk your life.
tho altruism is a part of human existence, i think it is still outweighed by that drive to spread the seed.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)ericson00
(2,707 posts)its pure hypocrisy. Isis is a disgrace to mankind.
Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)And his Islamic faith informs him as he works in DC as one of our most progressive law makers. Blanket statements about a religion especially one that features mostly brown people is why it is so easy for some to see the racism on the left.
progressoid
(49,991 posts)I feel the same way about white Catholics or Mormons who use their faith to guide them in public life. Especially politicians. It is NOT reassuring to know that Islam informs Ellison as he works in DC. I am similarly not reassured that Joni Ernst puts her faith in Jesus to guide her in DC.
Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)based on the behavior of a small group of outliers is called bigotry. Because most of them are brown it is also racist. Feel free to say what you will about Isis they are the horrible monsters that we knew Bush would birth in the levant as soon as he started banging the war drums.
Painting all of Islam with the same brush, especially when most of Isis' victims are Islamic is pretty fucking disgusting.
progressoid
(49,991 posts)People just chime in.
What if I make a blanket statement about white Muslims? That would be bigotry. But is it also racist?
Or, what if someone calls a crowd of people “white supremacist liberals”. As a blanket statement, is that just bigotry or is it also racist?
Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)"In order to be racist, you need to possess two traits. The first is privilege: A structural, institutional, and social advantage. White people occupy positions of racial privilege, even when they are disadvantaged in other ways. White women, for example, consistently make more than black women, because they benefit from racial attitudes... People of color talking about white people don’t occupy positions of privilege or power. Therefore, they cannot be racist. Racism is structural, not personal." S.E. Smith
The only people who think reverse racism is a thing are the racist, hope that helps educate you on the subject.
progressoid
(49,991 posts)Now, I think Islam and Catholicism are inherently sexist. Technically, I'm not calling all members sexist, just the religion. However it does that imply that I think the adherents (even the women) of those religions are sexist too.
It's just so had to make a blanket statement that doesn't make me sound like a bigot.
I'm going to dwell on this while I mow the lawn. Maybe when I'm done, I'll be a better bigot.
Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)only an asshole bigot would make a comment like that because their feelings got hurt on being called out for their deplorable world view.
Maybe you should try some reflection with the end goal of being less of a bigot, not a better one, Champ.
One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)There are types of people who are interested in going there. Not to fight for any religion etc. But because it is legal and encouraged for them to do such things.
SunSeeker
(51,574 posts)Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)yeah seems easy to find something comparable. Young women under threat of violence and death being forced to have sex with old men who want some extra young child wives to rape, yeah happens here all the time and not just among the mormons many of our fundi populations act as wholesale child rape factories.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Signed, the mainstream media. 
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)smear Christianity.
The OP is about a particular sect that is using the excuse of the Quran for its own hateful ends. No other group of Muslims interprets the Quran the way they do.
The irony is that if I had said that ISIS represents true ISLAM you would be the first person to say it does NOT. Yet when I condemn the actions of ISIS alone, you claim that that is an attempt to smear ISLAM. You're not making any sense.
ancianita
(36,097 posts)It's ironic to me that Sunni, being by far the largest sect of Islam worldwide, haven't done a heck of a lot to stop ISIS. There must be some tacit will of the larger sect to dominate the region, and ISIS is the well-heeled militarist wing that purifies the region of both Yazidi 'unbelievers' and those who collaborated with past coalition forces or their government.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)as about others here. You're reasonable, even when you're wrong from the outset, and after reflection, you'll admit your error and change course. You've always been that way, so I give you credit for that.
Others, however, dig in, and hold on tenaciously to even the craziest ideas as ideas that are as factual as gravity or motherhood when they are little more than sheer nonsense and superstition, grounded in fairy tales and religious dogma. Some of these people are low post count disruptors; others are just misguided.
Whatever. Anyone being honest knows that I have FREQUENTLY posted about modern human slavery, in all its contexts, and I condemn it. ATM, I can think of very few crimes that disturb me as much as human slavery.
That said, I'm moving on to other topics, because this has inflamed a board war here on DU, and so there are no minds to persuade, and nothing healthy or constructive will happen here.
Peace to you. 
cali
(114,904 posts)Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)elevate a nuts group of religious fundamentalist to a legitimate government because the facts don't fit very well with your ethnocentrism.
cali
(114,904 posts)It is the ruling regime over broad swaths of Syria and Iraq.
Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)Isis is in very temporary control, of considerable far less than you probably think. For the most part the same tribal leaders we paid off in our surge hold the exact same territory they did under the U.S. Occupation.
Isis will be long gone probably in a matter of years and Mormons will still be selling their 12 year old girls to old rape happy God fearing Christian men.
cali
(114,904 posts)Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)I'm sure to the 12 year old girl having her life stolen and being raped by a dirty old man in the name of god feels basically the same too.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)And maybe no worse than Jehovah's Witness.
I wish someone could explain to me, in terms that make sense, how morality and god belief are inextricably linked. When preservation of the institution becomes paramount over everything, morality and decency are murdered.
Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)I actually have family in that cult on my father side. They don't talk to us, lots of dirty atheist on this side of the family.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)in modern times, to see those topics die nasty, brutish deaths.
So pardon me if I ignore topics which attempt to muddy the waters in smearing Islam with modern slavery when modern slavery NOT of the muslims worl is dismissed here and elsewhere as ... something else and not important.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)If you are truly concerned about modern slavery then you should be horrified by this.
Syzygy321
(583 posts)Last I heard, it claims a MILLION females per year.
I care too.
recycled60
(20 posts)Anyone with this thought has no idea of religion - Christian, Islam, Buddhism or any thing else.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)is G.W. Bush and his band of merry chickenhawk psychopaths, the whore press and every slimy, opportunistic politician who gave those assholes the green light for neo-liberal regime change in Iraq. Every republican presidential candidate and most republican members of congress are channeling them.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Mind you, ISIS was cited in the title as the perpetrators here, not all Muslims, but that's still too problematic for the folks who have a blind spot. We MUST point out that random people in America get PROSECUTED for this stuff.
Ex Lurker
(3,814 posts)It happens from time to time here, and gets prosecuted and severely punished. But nevermind, we're exactly the same as a de facto theocratic state having child rape and abuse of women as part of its official policy. A sizable portion of DU-I hope it's a minority, but I don't know-is unable to criticize anything about radical Islam, no matter how egregious. They'll ignore it when possible, When they can't they'll deflect, equivocate, shift blame, and draw false parallels.
imthevicar
(811 posts)Incubator story I don't Believe it anymore. They want to put boots on the ground against an origination that was trained and funded By our own government. I wont be fooled again! NO TROOPS ON THE GROUND ANYMORE!
Dorian Gray
(13,496 posts)really terrifying for those girls. I can't believe that this savagery exists in this day and age.
ozone_man
(4,825 posts)Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Israel, and Qatar. These countries have supported the radical Sunnis that make up ISIS. And by fighting the sovereign country of Syria, Obama is making ISIS that much stronger. The past two weeks, Turkey has been bombing Kurds, who are fighting ISIS. I thought the Kurds were at some level our allies. It's very complicated, and I blame Bush for much more of this, but Obama has not helped, only made matters worse.
We never understood how lucky we all were to have a secular government under Hussein, where women professionals were common, professors, doctors, ... Now it is pure chaos, as your OP shows.
Republicans, Democrats, is it that much different?
Syzygy321
(583 posts)Don't get me wrong: I prefer a secular barbaric tyrant to an Islamist barbaric tyrant any day - for the reasons you mentioned.
But Saddam Hussein was a mass murderer - and it is amusing to see you write his hagiography without mentioning that detail.
ozone_man
(4,825 posts)He was much, much better. Just compare Iraq before and after we bombed it to smitherenes.
We see too often through the lens of western 'democracy' and don't understand why it doesn't work in tribal regions like Iraq and Afghanistan.
I think that TPTB knew all to well what they were getting into and why (e.g. PNAC), and it had nothing to do with democracy, and all to do with strategic resources, geography, and that brown people do not matter that much, if we kill a million of them.
Syzygy321
(583 posts)are advocating tyranny, repression, and a police state?
We wouldn't want it for ourselves, and it isn't terribly liberal. But it doea look like Mideast nations (all but Tunisia and Israel) are only stable when shackled by brutal dictators and Islamism is kept at bay.
ozone_man
(4,825 posts)Sometimes a brutal dictator is what is called for. Not politically correct, but he (SH) did keep things under control, and women were treated fairly, professionals and academics, a secular country. Now, it is destroyed.
senz
(11,945 posts)I've been trying to understand it for a long time and, not being a psychologist or anthropologist, am pretty much stymied. But I think there's a mistake in our wiring that, in some people, can connect any emotion to sexual acting out. It seems to be worse, or perhaps more frequent, in males. I've never heard a good explanation for it. It's almost like we as a species are fatally flawed. Sorry to sound so depressing, but this stuff depresses me.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,479 posts)I'm not the best with words so these 2 quotes say it all for me:
We do not ask for your poor or your hungry.
We do not want your tired and sick.
It is your corrupt we claim.
It is your evil that will be sought by us.
With every breath, we shall hunt them down.
Each day, we will spill their blood till it rains down from the skies.
Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles which every man of every faith can embrace.
These are not polite suggestions. These are codes of behavior, and those of you that ignore them will pay the dearest cost.
There are varying degrees of evil. We urge you lesser forms of filth not to push the bounds and cross over into true corruption, into our domain.
For if you do, one day you will look behind you and you will see us. And on that day, you will reap it.
And we will send you to whatever god you wish.