I'm going to drop this here...

[OneGrassRoot]

I've been a member of DU for a long time; very inactive for the last 18 months or so. I returned a week or so ago to peruse the main boards and a few groups. My return coincided with the Seattle incident which is tearing things asunder here.

I've witnessed on DU what I have witnessed on FB and elsewhere over the last week: A lot of people I feel close to, people I care for deeply and admire, people I still believe are of like mind and heart with me -- other white people like myself who are advocates for racial, social and economic justice -- repeatedly express how offended and hurt and besieged they feel by PoC expressing THEIR feelings about what is going on now, not only with #BlackLivesMatter but in general.

(I don't know for certain that the common denominator is being a Bernie Sanders follower any longer; it seems to have expanded.)

There have been many, many heart-wrenching personal histories shared on DU and elsewhere from PoC and/or their family members, trying to explain why they are angry. Angry in general. And, yes, for many that anger encompasses white people as a whole as they try to express their daily fear and anger which is rooted in 400 years of oppression and killing. It doesn't mean they hate you personally and feel that because you're white that you're a white supremacist. Surely you can step back and take a deep breath and see that and let it go and listen more fully and humbly?

It really sucks that I, as a white person, need to be pointing this out. But just as the abled must speak up and be responsible for transforming a system that is oppressive toward the disabled; just as men must speak up and be responsible for transforming a system that is oppressive toward women; just as straight people must speak up and be responsible for transforming a system that is oppressive toward our LGBT brothers and sisters, so too must we white people speak up and be responsible for transforming a system -- including our culture -- which is oppressive to all people of color. Not merely oppressive, flat-out dangerous, with lives lost nearly every single day very specifically because of the color of their skin.

The fact that this chasm is growing prompts me to post this. There continue to be multiple posts across different areas of DU and it feels like it's getting worse.

What I see happening is many intelligent, big-hearted people that I know are, for some reason, taking a lot of things verrrrrryyyyyy personally. I'm reading the same things you are, I'm white, and I'm not offended whatsoever, nor am I taking it personally.

Unless you were in the audience in Seattle, the two women protesters were not talking to you. They were not yelling at you or disparaging YOU. Everyone needs to let that go for sure because that's been hashed out to death. Bernie Sanders' campaign has grown and moved on as a result of it, and the #BlackLivesMatter movement continues as well.

Many people of color are sharing their experiences in an attempt to elicit more understanding and empathy from white people, who simply have not lived the same life experience and thus could benefit from expanding our lens to consider what it must be like to grow up and live in the United States NOT as a white person and why they are afraid RIGHT NOW, every single day. It is an urgent situation, to say the least. Even if we think we -- as white liberals -- GET it, we all have more to learn from one another.

The vast majority of people sharing these stories are doing so to help us understand the anger and rage that is now at the surface and not abating and why there is such a sense of urgency and determination to NOT fade into the background again. Sharing our stories is how we learn. They are NOT trying to make anyone feel guilty.

Even if verbiage is used that essentially invokes the Martin Miemoller poem ("First they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out -- because I was not a Jew&quot , or direct comments stating that the collective we (white people) will be responsible if we silently allow the carnage to continue and they plead their case to get everyone on the same page which includes continued support for #BlackLivesMatter and similar efforts, how is that any different from the times we have told right-wing friends and relatives that if they vote for so and so, THEY are going to be responsible for war, the decimation of our democracy and the complete takeover by the 1% with everyone else sliding into outright poverty?

How is that different?

Why are you taking everything so personally, in a way that is preventing useful dialogue? I usually understand where people are coming from, even if I don't agree with them, but I do not at all understand why so many of my friends are suddenly feeling personally attacked and maligned every time a critique of White America is shared.

You weren't offended before last Saturday. I know you weren't. Something changed.

If anyone of any skin color has any desire to have deep discussions about this in a VERY RESPECTFUL way, in a private forum, please let me know.

The nature of public messages boards breeds animosity, hurt feelings, mocking, no understanding or closure.

We are going to continue going nowhere, FAST, in the realm of race relations if we intelligent, thoughtful, compassionate people of all colors and abilities and socioeconomic and other demographic backgrounds can't have a civil discussion about all of this, without hurt feelings getting in the way of respectful conversation with the intent to understand one another more fully.




EDIT TO ADD: If you're inclined to find posts which you feel are personally insulting or examples of why you're offended, you're honestly just missing the point. Unless every single person of color has been accusing you, by name, of being a white supremacist, you're missing the point. Even if comments are made in this very thread that feel like attacks, please try to disregard that and focus on what I've written here.

[notadmblnd]

1. I find that it's best to use blanket statements and broad brush painting when

attempting to change hearts and minds. Works every time

[OneGrassRoot]

2. So you close your mind and heart and dismiss the entire message?

An entire movement and aspect of desperately needed transformation in this country?

If people don't word things perfectly -- as no doubt I did not -- is the entire message and point moot?

If people are furious and frightened -- as many DUers have been over the years when speaking of poverty and war and surveillance and the other issues that infuriate and frighten us -- and express themselves in a way that isn't ideal for every personality type, is that a reason to dismiss the message, or messenger for that matter?

[notadmblnd]

12. Their message?

I think more people need to do some research on this group, their slogans and affiliations to determine for themselves what their real message is.

I've been doing my homework and I will not support radical extremist agitators who align themselves with the message of hate groups that advocate more violence.

In my opinion, it does nothing to prove that black lives matter to them more than they do to me. In fact it proves just the opposite.

If you assume that because I don't support this organization and their messages and feel it equates to my heart and mind being closed to equality among human beings, then so be it.

[OneGrassRoot]

14. Are you referring to #BlackLivesMatter or that Outside Agitators 206?

I ask because, for myself and many others, #BlackLivesMatter is a large, decentralized movement, with the initial focus being criminal justice reform.

Certainly there are various racial justice organizations and networks, and many consider themselves as part of the #BLM movement.

I tend to view #BLM much like OWS as far as the network itself, some I agreed with, others I didn't as far as technique and tactics. But I have always supported and continue to support the #OWS movement for economic equality and justice.

No, I am not judging you personally at all.

[notadmblnd]

20. I can not support those who adopt the rhetoric of hate groups

who only want vengeance, not change. I can't say it any plainer.

[1StrongBlackMan]

38. Don't bother ... He/she decided to resist when they stopped reading ...

after the first paragraph.

[notadmblnd]

64. you know absolutely nothing about me

How is your blind anger and quest for vengeance any different than the will full ignorance you accuse me of?

We'll see who is in the streets and who is behind their keyboards when the shit hits the fan 100x worse than it currently is.

[1StrongBlackMan]

66. I know you didn't read the OP ...

I, also, know that I am not impressed with your puffery.

[notadmblnd]

68. I do not live to impress you nor anyone else.

You have a good evening.

[1StrongBlackMan]

69. Well your life's mission is/has been accomplished. Good evening. n/t

[notadmblnd]

70. Somethig I've said must have touched a nerve

for you to lash out with the personal insults.

Thanks for that though, it goes to re-enforce in my mind that this movement is not about change, but vengeance.

[1StrongBlackMan]

71. Yeah. Okay. Vengeance ... LOL. n/t

[tavalon]

79. LOL

Good retort.

[sheshe2]

80. 1SBM

Is one of the kindest even keeled and informed people on this board. Is he passionate? Yes he is.

How is your blind anger and quest for vengeance any different than the will full ignorance you accuse me of?

You talk about his blind anger and a quest for vengeance? Would you give me a link to that? I have been talking to him for a few years now. I have never seen what you just posted.

[notadmblnd]

82. In my opinion, his unquestioning support and his insulting dismissal of those who disagree with

Ms. Johnson and her views along with the passive aggressive remark he made in regards to me to OGR and the flip non answer to my question confirms to me his true feelings.

I expect you to tell me that my accusation was unfair and baseless. As far as I recall I've never engaged this kind, sensitive man in conversation, and prior to me addressing his remark, he has never responded to anything I have ever posted. However, this is an EEO message board and if he can make baseless assumptions, so can I.

[1StrongBlackMan]

95. Apparently, to some a level playing field equals ...

seeking "vengeance".

[JDPriestly]

117. It's the finger-pointing that separates people. POC have very legitimate reasons to complain,

but broadbrushing others based on the color of their skin is no more right when POC do it than when white people do it.

Finger-pointing at a people because of the color of their skin (and that is just one of the criteria that is used to point fingers and divide without considering uniting factors like values and goals) divides by skin color. It makes it difficult to work together to solve problems.

A lot of white people have worked hard to help solve the very problems that POC are pointing fingers about. And the problem in the white community is not all white people but the white people who point fingers and wield power directed indiscriminately at POC.

Pointing fingers at people based on characteristics other than the relevant characteristics of conduct, of action, of good will, of service, of advocating for, all the good things that people do for each other in society on many issues including race, but especially pointing fingers and telling people to shut up and preventing people from participating and speaking their turn based on race -- there is the problem.

If the young people from BLM had simply asked, they most probably would have been given a generous time slot at the various events that they have crashed. The people running the programs, the people who came to the programs, it can be assumed, support their call for action and change. Bernie has certainly proved that.

We have to work together to get the change we all need and that Black people need the most. Anything that discourages us from working together is counterproductive, and should be discouraged in its turn.

My grandson visited me this week. He is very young. It is my job to teach him based on my experience how to live in peace with others, how to respect and love others. If he acts up in my presence, I have to talk to him about how to behave correctly. I have to let him know that his misbehavior will not be accepted. And I have to do that without displaying the same behavior he may in a moment of tiredness or quick anger display.

Similarly, it is my job to point out to this new generation just how important it is to treat your allies, your friends well, to respect them and to work with them to find solutions to problems.

Acting up and acting out do not improve tense situations. The officers who beat Black people up and kill them are acting out. To change their behavior, we all have to act rationally and demand that they no longer have positions of authority.

We have to institute no tolerance for acts of wanton violence in our police forces. One mistake and an officer is fired. That is the only way to change the situation.

Until very recently, police officers in California, enjoyed a lot of privacy with regard to their work records. That is changing here, and it has to change across the country.

But if People of Color focus on the indiscriminate silencing and targeting of white people just based on race, the changes will not happen because every great milestone in changing the laws and culture about race relations has occurred when people of good will, regardless of race, work together. It isn't black people against white people or vice versa. It is people of conscience against people who do not care.

So I will continue to express my disagreement with the tactics that the BLM used in silencing their white friends. It is downright stupid and counterproductive. I do not give in to my grandson's inevitable temper tantrums. They don't help him. And they don't help me.

And, yes, I will compare the outbursts of older children and even of myself when I am tired and do not control myself to the outbursts of BLM at friendly events that were aimed to destroy the opportunities of friendly speakers to say their piece.

No way does that further the BLM movement.

And I add that I heartily support the goals of the BLM movement, just not SOME of the strategies they have applied. Certain of their strategies are no more effective than my grandson's throwing broccoli at me. Understandable but counterproductive. And worst of all, childish.

[OneGrassRoot]

119. On acting up...

While I understand where you're coming from regarding the tactics, I also understand where the young activists are coming from with their angry and, yes, rude disruptions.

Now, we're each going to view what "rude" means very differently. Again, different personality types, different perspectives and tolerances for different types of protest tactics. I really believe that's what all this is coming down to: different personality types.

As I've said repeatedly, I'm a white woman and I do not speak for the activists who are part of the #BlackLivesMatter movement -- which is a cause, with a message, not an organization...not yet at least. But I will share my thoughts about this business of "tactics."

I do believe the vast majority of the AA community feels that they have been dismissed far too often, with their specific community needs being placated but not acted upon aggressively or swiftly -- and that includes by the Democratic Party who assumes they have their vote and thus relegate the very specific issue of racial injustice to more of a secondary topic, never the forefront. Until now.

This isn't new, of course, which you already know. The LGBT community and other marginalized groups -- and even some of the OWS protests -- have "acted up" in ways that were frowned upon by those who felt they were hurting their cause and making enemies out of their allies and pretty much what you have expressed here.

But being moderate in protest approaches, especially in today's world with all the white noise, is useless. It surely doesn't get attention quickly. I don't believe they're attacking anyone, including the candidates, but they are going to do whatever it takes to BE SEEN and BE HEARD and KEEP IT THAT WAY, especially because their loved ones are being killed every day. They live in fear every single day. I wouldn't be polite or moderate in my speech or manner or approach either -- as a community, they're in pure survival mode.

Issues of racial injustice are at the forefront precisely because some of these activists have been loud and rude and very, very disruptive. I don't think they really care who likes HOW they are gaining attention; they're more focused on getting a spotlight on racial injustice and keeping it there because the various discussions they've triggered are vitally important.

This means the loud disruptions are likely to continue throughout this campaign season because they want to keep the candidates and supporters and the rest of America focused on why there is a need to have a movement called BlackLivesMatter.

That's another reason why we really shouldn't be taking everything personally. It has really only just begun.

I feel we should be listening and considering each day what more we have to learn from what's happening. Even though I thought I "got" it before, probably as Bernie did, I know I learn something new each day -- and I bet he would say the same thing about all of this and I hope he does address this rift head on, soon.

For the people who cannot tolerate rudeness as it concerns life-or-death situations, I don't know what to say. In general, I also prefer respectful dialogue and civility, but protests are different. There is a different intention, and the primarily intention is to get attention.

I understand that rudeness turns some people away from listening. That makes me sad but perhaps engaging as we are doing here can help us broaden our perspectives beyond the how and who, and get back to giving attention to the "why."

[ChiciB1]

114. YIKES!!!

Guess the message got through to you. Oh well. I'm also one who posts here on a "sometime" basis because DU isn't the DU I signed up to back in 2004.

Even Will Pitt understands this reality!

[PeaceNikki]

3. Agreed.

This has been my feeling on the whole thing:


I refuse to think they are ignorant or stupid or assholes or Republican operatives or part of a false flag operation.

I think they're angry and scared and hurt at what's happening to their brothers and sisters and children and friends.

They're trying to affect change. Sanders and O'Mally now have comprehensive plans laid out regarding racial justice. Neither did before these disruptions. And that's all they are is minor disruptions. Yeah, they said some nasty hurtful shit but they've heard it all themselves their entire lives. They're pissed. I get it. People are dying and they're asking to be heard.

We should listen to them. They have life experiences we don't.

[ananda]

9. Good point.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

There is nothing rational or pretty about racism, and because there
is no human rhyme or reason to it, the reaction is sometimes not
so pretty or rational either. So fucking what!??! Does that mean
we allies just pick up our toys in a huff and go home? Hell no!

The ONLY rational thing is to do something about it no matter what,
in a strong, organized fashion.

[Prism]

19. +1

[OneGrassRoot]

84. Well said. n/t

[artislife]

147. +1 nt

[GitRDun]

4. Some of the threads look like pihrana attacks, lol

When bringing awareness to unarmed people getting killed by police becomes less important than "our guy looking good", you've really lost your way...

[OneGrassRoot]

121. ...

word

I don't think we've "met" before. Hiya, nice to meet you.

[GitRDun]

124. ...

nice to meet you too!

[Maedhros]

5. You assume all of the critiques are in good faith.

Just because someone drops #BLM in front of their name does not exempt them from criticism, and does not mean that they are guaranteed to be acting in good faith.

All actions are subject to analysis.

[OneGrassRoot]

7. No, I don't. I'm actually careful to use "many" in my posts...

I realize there are exceptions, but they aren't the rule.

I suppose perspective is everything.

I can read the same things others are and hear the message, and not hear it as an attack on me and my character.

I choose to have a broader perspective and freely admit I constantly have things to learn about others with different life experiences. I don't feel it makes me less than in any way, so I'm not defensive. If someone is an overt shit, I don't paint others with a similar message with that same broad brush.

[Maedhros]

60. You proceed from a false assumption.

I (and many others) are not criticizing because we perceive "an attack on me and my character." That's projection on the part of Bernie's detractors.

I'm calling out a disingenuous political stunt, because I think integrity is important in politics.

Have I heard their message? Yes. Do I agree with the goals of #BlackLivesMatter? Absolutely - I've been pissed off about this shit since at least 2003, when Kendra James was killed by Portland Police for avoiding arrest.

#BlackLivesMatter is a Twitter hashtag, not an organization. Anyone can appropriate it and use it for pursuing their own agenda. Using it doesn't make one immune to criticism, or guarantee one's integrity.

[OneGrassRoot]

85. I agree with you here...

so maybe it's miscommunication between us, and similarly with others?

It is precisely because I recognize #BlackLivesMatter as a movement, a message...not an organization with hierarchy and specific, limited goals or demands. I view it much as I do #OWS, which I continue to support.

Just because one professes alignment or support for any movement -- or even an organization itself -- doesn't make one immune to criticism or guarantee one's integrity.

[Bluenorthwest]

6. You mention LGBT so it has to be mentioned that disruptive activism by LGBT activists has always

been harshly criticized on DU, by straight people who seemed utterly incensed in OP after OP that any LGBT person dared to speak for themselves. DU straights have never hesitated to preach and lecture at LGBT posters here as to what we do wrong in our activism, how much it upsets them, how terrible it is to heckle those who support you even if that support is imperfect, we have been instructed as to time, and place and decorum and no one ever thought to apologize, not even now when many of those same lecturing privilege merchants are suddenly very supportive of disruptive activism and unable to understand how anyone could be upset by it.

I could post links from various DUers ranting against those awful gay disruptive activists if you'd like. It's a hell of a thing to look at, considering. We were pure evil for interrupting good Democrats, despicable, selfish and evil. Want to review?

[OneGrassRoot]

8. Oh no, I vividly remember...

and it is a very, very, very similar phenomenon. I realize that.

And I'm sorry that happened.

[Bluenorthwest]

13. But here is what is burning me. Some of those who were most harsh toward the tactics and the

activists are now not only supporting those tactics used by activists they like, but they are condemning anyone who even questions those tactics. That is despicable because they questioned those tactics themselves. Those people, who shat on LGBT activists all over DU who are now ranting and raging at anyone who is not fully and instantly charmed by the Seattle action are hypocrites and liars and bigots. All of those things. They are toxic and terrible.
If these are posters who have learned to be accepting of these tactics why are they attacking others who are not yet accepting of them? What sort of a low down game is that?

They should be ashamed.
But they are not.

[OneGrassRoot]

18. We have a whole lotta history between the various groups...

hurtful, damaging, often ignorance-based (in the truest sense of the word) history that we must acknowledge and agree to respectful dialogue in order to move forward with more understanding and a willingness to continue to learn from one another, and admission when we have been wrong in the past, because we just didn't get it at the time. We need to be willing to accept personality responsibility for our role in such things.

Not beat it all to death, but accept responsibility and be willing to move forward with an even more open mind and heart.

[Prism]

21. The only acceptable dialogue is an acknowledgement and an apology

Everything else is theater that is very difficult to take seriously.

When someone is 180 degrees removed from a previous position, I would like to know why. Why were LGBTers horrible people but BLM now sacrosanct? What is the difference in their thinking?

I support BLM. I do not hold the entire movement accountable or responsible for any one person. It is an idea, a passion, and a cause. It is not Seattle, or Netroots, or Hillary in Connecticut. It is a desire for justice.

But when people have determinedly, repeatedly, and denigratingly gone after protesters and suddenly turned it around based on candidate sympathies, I want to know why.

And I want to know if they're sorry.

[Bluenorthwest]

25. That is it exactly.

I'm furious with the false sanctimony I see.

[1StrongBlackMan]

41. I was one that didn't particularly have a problem with President Obama inviting ...

that heterosexist preacher to the swearing in AND I was one that talked about the need to "go slow." While I never saw LGBTers as "horrible" or even in a negative light and I never went after LGBTers ... I considered myself an "ally", even as I did not spend much time considering LGBT issues, that were unique to them. (sound familiar?)

But several PM discussions of real talk and plenty of questions ... I did the 180. And wish to think those of DU:LGBT that opened my eyes. That is the difference in my thinking ... and I believe my current posts reflect that awakening.

[Prism]

44. I appreciate this

I really, sincerely do. Thank you.

[1StrongBlackMan]

55. However, there are a couple among the DU:LGBT ...

would have me crawl through an alley of broken bottles before they will accept this. That is not going to happen ... I will continue doing and speaking according to my current understanding, accepting correction when I go astray.

[Prism]

75. That's all anyone can do

Earnestness goes miles in ameliorating hard feelings. I don't exactly have my fans in the AA forum, but I'll still speak up for BLM and other issues because it's the correct thing to do.

[sibelian]

45. They will never do this, ever.

The reason being - there's nothing in it for them.

[OneGrassRoot]

86. I hear you...

and I agree. I believe an acknowledgement and an apology is what will enable respectful dialogue.

I assume there are specific DUers involved here, or are there specific groups of people to whom you're referring?

Either way, I hear you and agree. And I would love to facilitate this if possible.

It wasn't right then, it isn't right now.

[malaise]

10. Good post

Rec

[OneGrassRoot]

133. I know you wouldn't have cared or noticed...

but since I'm trying to respond to each comment, I at least wanted to say thanks for reading and give you a big

[mmonk]

11. I think defensiveness explains alot.

But I also noticed if you say anything in defense of the campaign it falls on deaf ears. The response is it proves their point. So I'm moving on. My only question is why the narrow focus? The people behind the Sanders movement to form a coalition are not currently in power while so many lives are being lost. But most, I think one way conversations are too difficult for most. You have a great heart as most here. Its good you really want to understand from another perspective. Wish you luck.

[OneGrassRoot]

87. That's what makes me so sad...

As you know, for years I have been trying to find others -- not even of like mind completely, but simply others who long for respectful dialogue.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding the question of "why the narrow focus," do you mean why did it look as though #BLM advocates were focused on Sanders?

If so, I'd say that it may have seemed that way to some for a day or two but then the protests expanded, as they always said they would. I never felt Sanders was targeted by those in the movement as a whole in a negative way. Then Seattle happened and all hell broke loose and lines were drawn in the sand.

I hope you're feeling better.

Oh, we ended up not having an ER visit this time. Surgery is finally scheduled for Monday the 24th. I've been vigilant for rushes to the ER since Christmas and my nerves are frazzled.

[retrowire]

15. Agreed, let's stand in solidarity.

These frustrations will only divide us. Help me, help you and vice versa.

[cwydro]

16. I'm completely behind the Black Lives Matter movement.

I have friends here of different ethnic groups involved.

But, I found what happened in Seattle to be counter-productive.

That woman's incoherent screaming has turned off people of all colors.

[hfojvt]

17. I tend to take things personally

when they are stated that way.

When people say basically "white people suck" or "men are evil monsters" or express some sort of anti-white or anti-men bigotry that other people seem to want to applaud.

Usually that means that the people applauding will turn on me, but so it goes.

I think if you start talking about "400 years of oppression" that you are already looking for reasons to be angry, reasons to have a chip on your shoulder. Whatever happened 200 or 300 years ago simply did NOT happen to you. Am I supposed to be all mad at Georgians (or somebody) because one of my great-great grandfathers died in Andersonville? (Note to the Georgia government - send the reparations checks to ME, Al Franken, Minneapolis, Minnesota (that's all the address you need))

We cannot have respectful conversations, if, in the words of the BC, the other person "only sees us the way they want to - in the most convenient terms, the simplest definitions".

Yep, that's me JAMAWD - just another middle aged white dude.

[LanternWaste]

22. The consequences of that period are yet still very relevant, still very real and still very absolute

"Whatever happened 200 or 300 years ago simply did NOT happen to you..."

The consequences of that period are yet still very relevant, still very real and still very absolute. It would take either a half-wit or a person blind to historical context (but I repeat myself) to minimize or ignore that... as it's still very much a part of all our lives.

JAMAWD II.... for all it's petulant irrelevance.

[notadmblnd]

27. We do a disservice to the cause of justice by intimating that bias and discrimination are immutable

or that racial division is inherent to America. If you think nothing’s changed in the past fifty years, ask somebody who lived through the Selma or Chicago or L.A. of the Fifties. Ask the female CEO who once might have been assigned to the secretarial pool if nothing’s changed. Ask your gay friend if it’s easier to be out and proud in America now than it was thirty years ago. To deny this progress – our progress – would be to rob us of our own agency; our responsibility to do what we can to make America better.

Of course, a more common mistake is to suggest that racism is banished, that the work that drew men and women to Selma is complete, and that whatever racial tensions remain are a consequence of those seeking to play the “race card” for their own purposes. We don’t need the Ferguson report to know that’s not true. We just need to open our eyes, and ears, and hearts, to know that this nation’s racial history still casts its long shadow upon us. We know the march is not yet over, the race is not yet won, and that reaching that blessed destination where we are judged by the content of our character – requires admitting as much.

Agree or disagree? Want to know who said it? Because in essence that woman stood up there and said just the opposite. With the words she used, she stated nothing has changed.

[F4lconF16]

34. No one has claimed that bias and discrimination are immutable.

Or we would not be struggling to change it.

And here's the thing: for millions today, while things have changed, much has been for the worse. Black scholar Michelle Alexandria (author of "The New Jim Crow", what has been considered by many to be the new bible of civil rights) has gone so far as to say that a black person living under Jim Crow may actually have been better off than a person living today under the racial caste system created by Mass Incarceration. That is a hell of a thing to say, and I won't comment on the validity of it, as I don't think I have the standing. But realize that for many, not much has changed.

Ferguson happened for a reason--oddly enough, it's because structural racism there has not changed in it's ferocity; only in it's implementation.

[notadmblnd]

43. But one can not simply point out the guilt of one set of contributors

call them despicable names and demand for them to bow down and not acknowledge ones own participation in maintaining a system of structural racism that they too have had a vested interest in maintaining.

If you have some time, please google "The three Pillars of White Supremacy" and read that paper. Afterwards I'd be interested in hearing your views on it.

I am currently looking for writings on the lost diaries of Dr. Livingston- you know, the famous Dr. Livingston. He was one of the original abolitionists and explorer who traveled throughout Africa writing on what he witnessed during the height of the slave trade. Both writings give great insight to the whos, hows and whys of structural racism. I think you will also find, there are many more peoples to be angry with as it is not simply an institution of the United States and that agitating for violent change is going to be a losing battle. A battle that is only going to end in more deaths of people of color.

We must work through the system to change the system as many generations have worked their entire lives. There's a long way to go, perhaps many more life times but it must not be done in the violent manner this young woman is supporting- if not, we risk the destruction of all who fight to eliminate it.

[F4lconF16]

46. I will do so.

However, I'm a bit confused by your first sentence--I think the object and subject got mixed up there somewhere.

As for this:

There's a long way to go, perhaps many more life times but it must not be done in the violent manner this young woman is supporting- if not, we risk the destruction of all who fight to eliminate it.

She doesn't support a violent manner--she's one of the ones peacefully protesting. But all too often, violent resistance to change becomes violence in protest to it. The physical confrontation between her and Sanders was not an advocation of violence so much as an expression of fear, anger, and intense hurt.

Like others have said about socialism: "The level of violence in a socialist revolution is exactly equal to the level of violence the state and establishment enacts to resist it." Same goes for racism.

[notadmblnd]

54. When she mouths slogans such as "Justice or else" or "by any means necessary" I think she does.

Especially since she has admitted to being an extremist and an agitator.

One of the questions I have is- who is radicalizing her? When I see her using slogans such as those I mentioned, demanding people to bow down and telling them they are the enemy-

When I go out to the justice or else web site and I see a video of the NOI leader calling for violence, calling for 10,000 young men to rise up- yelling and inciting young people by stating "kill them, kill them." What am I supposed to think?

"The level of violence in a socialist revolution is exactly equal to the level of violence the state and establishment enacts to resist it."

I do agree with your last statement, and you know what? That is why changing the system violently is a losing game, the state has way more power and I'm not willing to lose my black son to the hate.

[F4lconF16]

61. I can't and won't support a violent revolution.

Which is why I'm terrified that 40 years from now, we won't have already changed our society. Eventually something's going to snap.

As for her being an extremist and and agitator...I am also an extremist and an agitator. I believe in a revolution; I don't think we're anywhere close, though, and I'm not pushing for one yet. I'm an agitator; I block traffic, protest, etc. I think those words are much more emotionally charged than they should be.

I have a feeling I know what is radicalizing her, though--especially since she's told me some of the reasons. And since many of her reasons are the same as those radicalizing me (I am a proud radical, by the way). Perhaps this: 314 black people killed since Ferguson. How about this? 1/3 of black males will go to prison in their lifetime. It might the crushing poverty statistics. Or maybe it's just that racism and racial control in this country is almost as bad, albeit in a different form, than back 50-100 years ago. Or longer.

She's desperate. Black America is getting destroyed, systematically. And the worst part is it's being almost entirely ignored. "Justice or else" and "by any means necessary" are options that she's keeping open, because when all else fails (and it certainly appears to be failing for now at least), what are you going to do? Can't say I agree with that, but I certainly understand it. She's one of the more radical members of BLM, but she's got basically the same principles as many if not most of the movement. There's a reason she's been speaking at community meetings, at 500+ person Black Power to Black Lives Matter events, and being so well received. Her rhetoric is strong, and that is as it should be. We need people like her to wake us up.

The NOI doesn't have much to do with this, imho. BLM is separate from that. Unless you can show a link, I think the plight of Black America is more than enough reason to radicalize.

I don't know about any of this, though. I've got a lot to learn, and these are just my (mostly) not very well thought though musings wandering around my head today.

[notadmblnd]

62. That is where you are wrong. It was not being ignored

Progress in stopping this madness of our innocent young black men being murdered has admittedly been slow, but progress in raising awareness was being made. The justice department is investigating more and more PD and more and more LEOs are being charged with crimes. It may not be fast enough for Ms Johnson but you can not say no one is doing anything nor that no one cares.

IMO the link is the shared rhetoric.

[F4lconF16]

65. Have you read "The New Jim Crow" by Michelle Alexandria?

I highly recommend it. It discusses the virtually hidden and "colorblind" methods in which the AA community is under assault. Some progress is being made, but we are still plunging downhill in most ways, and by and large, it is being ignored. If progress was coming fast enough, we wouldn't need to be shutting our cities down to bring attention to these issues.

Thanks for the conversation, by the way. You made me think--and I appreciate the recommendation for the three pillars essay. I'm partially through it, and it's very interesting.

[notadmblnd]

67. Thank you for trying to understand my views.

It's more than many here have done. I will get and read the book.

[jwirr]

42. That is how I felt about it. Like my entire life had just be erased. And

that I was no longer needed in the discussion or the march.

I realize that these events were deeply emotional and that many of us did not think about what we were saying and how it looked from the other side so I am trying to find my place in all this again. But it is very hard. Yes, I took it very personal - because it sounded personal.

I agree in every way with the principles of BLM - but I have no idea where I stand with them. I who have lived with POC most of my adult life have had my soul ripped out. I am feeling very lost.

As too the 400 years of oppression. Yes it did happen and there are still consequences from it. But none of us were around back then to do anything about it. We are around to do something about the consequences today. And many of us have tried. When they tell us that what happened in the 60s does not matter then what happens is that we feel we have nothing to offer today because what we did then was useless.

I would much rather fight together recognizing what we have accomplished in the past and see what we can accomplish in the future.

One of the things that I have a real problem with is that in the movement we seem to be leaderless. It is hard to see which way we should be going. We need some who can really speak for this movement about concrete proposals. I do not see that coming from anyone that BLM accepts.

[notadmblnd]

81. You know, I was accused of not reading the OP and insulted by another poster

Last edited Sat Aug 15, 2015, 05:32 AM - Edit history (1)

who has no clue in regards to my life experience. I've repeatedly heard it stated here recently that "no white person has ever or could ever experience POCs suffering" as if it is some kind of contest as to who has suffered more throughout history.

Never mind that women have been oppressed since the beginning of time, burned at the stake as witches, demonized in religious texts. Committed to mental institutions at the hands of their husbands when they became too "emotional" to deal with. Not allowed to vote, not allowed to own property. Left destitute to live in the streets if they were to be divorced. Beaten and abused, raped and murdered by controlling, insecure husbands and boyfriends. Hell no! We got no idea what being oppressed for hundreds of years could possible feel like. It is assumed that because I'm white I couldn't possibly know the pain of those oppressed.

I can't help but wonder how many of these posters here have actually had their 13 year old sons chased down by the police, put face down in the dirt. I know have. You know what his crime was? Riding his bike while black. Then arrested for having "drug parphenalia" because the LEOs aren't even smart enough to tell the difference between a crack pipe and bike wrench. No, I could never truly understand or feel a person of color's pain, anger and rage at the hands of LEOs. Therefore nothing I say is relevant. It is assumed that by virtue of my skin being white, I'm still part of the problem.

No, I'm supposed to join in lockstep support else I'm just a racist whitesplaining. My thoughts, questions and opinions disregarded or ridiculed. Questions I have asked go unanswered. My life and my feelings can be dismissed by these few people, but it's demanded of me not to dismiss theirs. I'm supposed to understand where Ms Johnson is coming from. I'm supposed to see that, I am supposed to support her tactics not questions asked. And even if I do, I'm still just a "liberal white supremacist" because I could never understand or feel a POC pain. Or I haven't done enough, fast enough to change the system.

Grace Lee Boggs is about to celebrate her 100th birthday. She is a Chinese American philosopher, writer, and activist in Detroit, who has spent 75 years of her life in the labor, civil rights and Black Power movements. She has some really wise thoughts on affecting change and has said- "you have to change yourself- in order to change the world." She believes that non violence is an important philosophy because it respects the capacity for all humans to grow. Even though I have never and probably will never meet her, I have great respect for her as a fellow human being. PBS recently aired a documentary on her life entitled "American Revolutionary; The Evolution of Grace Lee Boggs"

I'm certain that I will dismissed, however, I would encourage everyone to take a look at it if they have a chance.

I do think I can understand Ms. Johnson's rage but I don't support her or what she has stated under the Black Lives Matter movement. I do agree with the founders of the movement who have stated reasonable goals. Ms. Johnson her own goals though- that I can not buy into and no amount of pressure, ridicule or dismissal by those who will blindly follow her here is going to change my mind.

I feel much like you- everything I have done has been of no consequence, it has all been meaningless because people such as Ms Johnson can't let go of their rage and the only thing that really matters to her is expressing it- loudly, rudely and hurtfully to many who have worked their entire lives trying to change the system and make this country a better place for all people. I sincerely hope she feels better now.

[OneGrassRoot]

88. Perhaps you can help me, notadmblnd...

First, forgive me if you've already had this very same discussion elsewhere on DU and I have missed it. I think I've developed adult-onset ADHD or something, because I have a hard time even in long threads like this one and the various responses become a bit of a blur.

I adore Grace Lee Boggs. I would also encourage others to check out her message and her work.

You know, it's so difficult to have meaningful discussions about issues nowadays. Perhaps it always was and everything is amplified now due to social media. Even if our life experiences are molded by things such as the color of our skin, we also each have different personality types, different levels of tolerance, different priorities. It's virtually impossible to have unity or solidarity.

Which is why I aim for harmony...lots of different voices at different pitches, coming together in one song.

Anyway, to me, your experience is VITAL. Your voice is extremely vital. I haven't engaged in every single discussion or even read through them here on DU, but I would imagine that most people of color would appreciate the fact that you have had a front-row seat to the experience of a black person in the US via your child.

I try to always include family members of people of color -- spouses, parents, etc. -- because you do have a different perspective than most white people who do not have family members who are in their daily lives to be able to see the daily microaggressions, let alone the overt repeated brutality.

I value your experience tremendously. You have an insight I don't have and, quite frankly, I cannot imagine. Your voice is very important, imho.

[notadmblnd]

136. What can I help you with?

[OneGrassRoot]

137. I just re-read your post...

and see that it does seem as if you're referring to interactions with DUers; I didn't quite key into that before.

Are you being treated by PoC around you in your daily life as though your experience has no value, including in this conversation about what happened in Seattle, or is it mainly here on DU?

If it is mainly here at DU, that would explain it, but I'm curious if you're experiencing it outside of DU as well.

Honestly, I don't remember my specific question now...lol. It's been a long day.

[notadmblnd]

138. No- I do not experience it from POC in the outside world

not from my long term friendships- not from the young people that come to my home- nor from strangers on the streets. We take care of each other, we look out for each other and we stand up for each other and protect each other. If anything, I've gotten more shit from family members (both mine and my husbands) and white strangers.

I've provided links to a couple of my other post that were largely un-noticed or rejected maybe they will help.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7076108 post #182
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7075849 post #180

[jwirr]

108. And I suspect there are many like us. My SILs, grand children and great

grand children are the center of my life. I, like you, support BLM but I do not think they support me.

BTW President Obama has a very good speech on this very issue today. Some really concrete things he is working on.

[OneGrassRoot]

109. If you see a link to the speech...

I would greatly, greatly appreciate sharing here. Is it part of his radio address?

Thanks.

[F4lconF16]

26. I think maybe I can clarify something?

What happened 400 years ago IS happening to PoC now. Like sexism, racism has a long and painful history. It has evolved, grown, twisted, changed, and become what we see it today. Sadly, much of the same problems we saw then (whites murdering blacks) is still happening in almost the exact same manner manner it is today. Other things, like the brutal system of alienation we call mass incarceration, are newly evolved forms of racial control.

When someone says to you, 400 years of oppression, they do feel the weight of 400 years on their shoulders. How could they not? The people who called us white folk in Seattle "white supremacists" (and I am one of them) do not see us in "the most convenient terms, the simplest definitions". Believe me--I've actually met and discussed things with Janae.

When you look out on a Seattle crowd, at a sea of white faces, who don't get the reality you face in the slightest, who are on a broad scale ignorant of your problems (and in being so helping to cause those problems); when you see the result of hundreds of years of oppression and racial discrimination, and you know those hundreds of years have created the reality you must navigate now; when you know that those very same people have voted for and supported the regimes of the racist Seattle Police Department, the racist city council policies, the racist housing development, the plethora of subtle and often overlooked structural racism inherent to your city and ignored by your neighbors; how can you not feel the weight of that oppression come crashing down on you?

In many ways, if not consciously, we are white supremacists. Not in our actions; we can be some fantastic human beings. But in our ignorance of the issues that are literally the very meaning of life or death to black America...we are creating a world for white people alone.

Respect must go both ways. And we need to understand that what is said and what we hear are often two very different things.

[Kali]

30. great post

reasoned and respectful

[Skidmore]

32. A reasoned response.

People do need to listen before reacting.

[OneGrassRoot]

89. Beautiful. Thank you so much. n/t

[hfojvt]

115. no, actially it is not

Not even close.

For example, in 2011, 21.5% of black households had over $100,000 in net worth.

You think there was an equivalent class of fairly prosperous black people in the 1840s? In the 1740s? You think a slave from the 1790s transported to 1990 seeing a black poor person's life is gonna think "nothing has changed"?

And "whites murdering blacks" sounds like a bunch of media hype to me.

Must we do the crime statistics again? Most blacks are murdered - by other blacks. That's a far, far, far, far, far larger number than the "whites murdered by blacks" that some people seem to think is THE issue.

Seems to me if you sweep all white people into that white supremacist bin, then that is 'the simplest terms, the most convenient definitions'. Everything you need to know about me is told to you by my skin color.

[OneGrassRoot]

135. Certainly things have changed...

Most people will acknowledge that, though there is much more to be done in the realm of justice and equality.

Yet even for the wealthiest of black persons, they are still much, much more likely than a white person to be profiled while driving, while shopping, etc., as just two examples of the prejudice that continues to manifests.

It isn't only the overt experiences of abuse and deaths of unarmed young black people at the hands of police officers -- it's the daily insults and the demoralizing and sometimes dehumanizing situations and systems. Seeing what is happening all around especially in this day of social media, including the horrific violence in many cities like Chicago, makes many black people feel as though black lives don't matter in this society -- and that can spill over into treating one another as though their lives don't matter, such as with the gang violence.

I think I and others have tried to have this discussion with you before, and why I tend to cringe at the mere thought of having these interactions with you, to be perfectly honest.

There is too much to unpack re: your "black on black crime" comment, but I'm sure you've heard it all before anyway.

Anyway, it's the multigenerational trauma and oppression -- the redlining in the 50's leading to decades of housing segregation and the creation of impoverished areas have implications RIGHT NOW. The way black men have been incarcerated for drug charges at rates much, much higher than white men for the same crime is a huge factor in the struggles of AA communities RIGHT NOW.

As for the white supremacist language, I think the entire discussion of race relations could use a new lexicon, or at least an honest exploration of these terms and what they truly mean to most people -- today, in 2015. The words themselves absolutely get in the way of meaningful dialogue.

[hfojvt]

145. is it such a terrible thing

when some stubborn fool refuses to see things your way?

It is, apparently for some people.

I have a sorta funny story about profiling. Although, of course, it is just a story. I was working with this young black man, about nineteen years old. He told me one day he was gonna drive home. Because of previous conversations I said "I thought you said you don't have a driver's license. It's not worth it to drive and get caught." He said "Oh, I will drive careful." I said "Careful's got nothing to do with it, you could get stopped for DWB."

My point being that at least one young black men I met, had no experience or knowledge of people being stopped for Driving While Black.

Ironically enough too, as a poor person I have quite a bit of experience being pulled over for trivial reasons, and profiled at stores. Many times I have been told "you cannot have that backpack in here" at stores where I have been a regular customer. Well, as a bicyclist how else am I supposed to get my groceries home?

Those tend to be rather trivial problems though, which is kinda my point, especially about the social media. Social media can inundate you with stories in a way to make you think a molehill is a mountain. As I posted on FB, according to crime statistics on an average day in America 4 times a day a person murders their parent, child, spouse or sibling. Imagine if you read four such stories every day. And that's only a portion of the total homicides.

There's no way, in my view, to unpack statistics where a 1 in 100,000 chance of getting killed by a cop (many of whom were simple NOT minding their own business - although some in the media will report it that way. Mile Brown, after all, was just walking while black.) and a 1 in 10,000 chance of getting killed by another black person makes "I am afraid of getting killed by the police" any kind of logical fear. A few rude encounters in a year do not equate to slavery. I don't buy that people should be rioting in the streets or gearing up for war and taking no prisoners.

[OneGrassRoot]

146. I'm gonna respond in real time as I read, without much thought...

I'll reply in bold.

Is it such a terrible thing when some stubborn fool refuses to see things your way?

It is, apparently for some people.

No, it's not terrible. It is disconcerting when it has happened repeatedly though. Sometimes I just give up. It's not a matter of convincing someone else of MY views, but more an inability to understand one another at all. An inability to get on the same chapter, let alone the same page.

I have a sorta funny story about profiling. Although, of course, it is just a story. I was working with this young black man, about nineteen years old. He told me one day he was gonna drive home. Because of previous conversations I said "I thought you said you don't have a driver's license. It's not worth it to drive and get caught." He said "Oh, I will drive careful." I said "Careful's got nothing to do with it, you could get stopped for DWB."

My point being that at least one young black men I met, had no experience or knowledge of people being stopped for Driving While Black.


Are you sure he had no experience with it (at that time, at least), or had you simply not delved deeply into enough that conversation? Regardless, if one young black man never experiences this, that's great. Sadly, as I believe you are acknowledging, that is rare.


Ironically enough too, as a poor person I have quite a bit of experience being pulled over for trivial reasons, and profiled at stores. Many times I have been told "you cannot have that backpack in here" at stores where I have been a regular customer. Well, as a bicyclist how else am I supposed to get my groceries home?

Acknowledged.


Those tend to be rather trivial problems though, which is kinda my point, especially about the social media. Social media can inundate you with stories in a way to make you think a molehill is a mountain. As I posted on FB, according to crime statistics on an average day in America 4 times a day a person murders their parent, child, spouse or sibling. Imagine if you read four such stories every day. And that's only a portion of the total homicides.

I agree that we have to consider the effect of media saturation. It is definitely advisable to step back and put things into perspective.

There's no way, in my view, to unpack statistics where a 1 in 100,000 chance of getting killed by a cop (many of whom were simple NOT minding their own business - although some in the media will report it that way. Mile Brown, after all, was just walking while black.) and a 1 in 10,000 chance of getting killed by another black person makes "I am afraid of getting killed by the police" any kind of logical fear. A few rude encounters in a year do not equate to slavery. I don't buy that people should be rioting in the streets or gearing up for war and taking no prisoners.

You're losing me here. I suppose statistics have become like assholes: everyone has one...lolol.

Is it worth it to share other statistics, showing how people of color are disproportionately impacted negatively in the educational system and the criminal justice system -- with violence visited upon them disproportionately by police -- and the continued impact of housing segregation, etc., etc.?

[tavalon]

140. It's so true

We in Seattle are highly segregated.

[OneGrassRoot]

90. I highly recommend reading Joy DeGruy's book: "Posttraumatic Slave Syndrome"

I learned SO MUCH from reading that book. It's intended for the AA audience but I personally feel we all would benefit from reading it. It speaks to the manifestations TODAY resulting from multigenerational oppression and trauma.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027077561

[hfojvt]

118. i am currently on page 394

of "A sorrow in our heart: the life of Tecumseh"

and I have three other books I bought, which I intend to read. Plus, I had started "autobiography of Malcolm X" (got all the way to page 16 before my shipment of books came in) which H2Oman had said was 'one of the most important books written'.

You can always give the cliff's notes version here, since presumably other people besides myself should read it too.

[Raine1967]

23. Thank you for saying this; I would gladly cosign this post.

This has been the experience I have been seeing on DU lately.

It really sucks that I, as a white person, need to be pointing this out. But just as the abled must speak up and be responsible for transforming a system that is oppressive toward the disabled; just as men must speak up and be responsible for transforming a system that is oppressive toward women; just as straight people must speak up and be responsible for transforming a system that is oppressive toward our LGBT brothers and sisters, so too must we white people speak up and be responsible for transforming a system -- including our culture -- which is oppressive to all people of color. Not merely oppressive, flat-out dangerous, with lives lost nearly every single day very specifically because of the color of their skin.

This was especially poignant, OneGrassRoot.

[OneGrassRoot]

91. ...

[Martin Eden]

24. "I'm reading the same things you are, I'm white, and I'm not offended"

Neither am I.

But I am very, very concerned this is driving a wedge betwen people who are natural allies and very much need to behave like allies in the struggle against a system that is increasingly being run by and for the privileged few.

Our inability to get over hurt feelings and work effictively together as a coalition could very well result in a Republican winning the White House -- and that hurts all of us in ways that go far beyond feelings.

That potential consequence should be more than enough for all of us here to engage the rational part of our brains and work together to prevent that from happening.

K&R for the OP.

[OneGrassRoot]

92. I'm longing for harmony, not solidarity or unity.

I don't think the latter is possible for a multitude of reasons in today's world, not the least of which is the varied personality types. Some people simply have personality types which result in being offended whereas others aren't. But we can work together in harmony, with our myriad individual voices.

That's what I'm realizing, at least. Though I'll keep an open mind for other applicable explanations as well.

I agree with you. I hope we can not only move forward, but work through the wounds created over the last week...and the wounds created within the LGBT community for similar reasons when they were criticized as a group for "acting up" and other wounds created in the recent past.

If we don't, moving forward is pointless. It will be just like what's happened to the AA community since Civil Rights. All the hate and ick and feelings of oppression were pushed under the surface, like a boil, and it has erupted since Obama's election. I happen to feel that's a positive thing -- it has to come to the surface in order to be acknowledged, tended to and to work toward some measure of healing.

[Rex]

28. I think some like to be offended and outraged at the rest of us.

Looking back over the years, some make it a hobby and their only narrative here. How anyone can take this personally here on DU, I will never understand. It is as if they don't have any critical thinking skills. Obviously nobody is talking about them, but that won't stop their outrage at being outraged by another member not talking about them in an OP.

IOW, it is just a sad game for some here and that is why I refuse to take them seriously.

[jwirr]

50. It was easy to take it personal. In that audience in Seattle were people

just like me - old, interested in the issue of Social Security-Medicare-Medicaid, most of them were likely aware of the situation in Seattle but because I live elsewhere that message came out only as anti-white. Especially anti-white liberal. Had no idea what they were talking about in regards to anything other than the killing of black people. The message was geared to the local audience and was misunderstood by non-locals.

I suspect had I been from Seattle and aware of Seattle politics it would have meant a whole other thing to me. As it was it had a national audience. And we took it literally.

I have always been proud of my families actions regarding slavery in the USA. My great+ grand father immigrated from German and immediately him and his 16 year old son joined the Union Army to fight slavery because they were absolutely against slavery in any form having come from a country that still was practicing slavery. The other side of the family were Republicans in the best sense of the word - Abraham Lincoln Republicans. They were part of the Underground Railroad. And there has not been one single generation that did not follow in these footsteps. Right down to my generation who have become part of mixed race families who we do not want killed because of the color of their skin. Imagine if you will how that message sounded to people like me.

We need to get beyond this and back to working together for what we all want. If we do not we will all lose.

[OneGrassRoot]

93. Hi, jwirr...

Do you feel it may simply be a matter of personality type? Not "good" or "bad" personality traits, but simply an aspect of one's personality that can lead to some white Bernie Sanders supporters being very hurt, taking the words of the two women protesters in Seattle personally versus other white Sanders supporters not taking it personally at all?

Maybe I'm making the various reactions to these events too complicated. It may simply be personality type. We all have different tolerances for conflict and behaviors.

I don't know.

I agree that we need to get beyond this point, but I don't think we can do so effectively without working through things more and achieving some level of harmony -- not complete unity, but simply harmony...different voices coming together. If we don't do this, it will be similar to the "just move on" aspect of what happened that was so hurtful and divisive between some people and the LGBT community -- here on DU and elsewhere. There are wounds there that haven't been dealt with either and prevent effective dialogue and collaboration.

[jwirr]

110. I think that there personality does play a significant role in what is

happening.

In my own reaction I can see that. The first time it happened at NN I stated that I understood that this issue had to be kept front and center and not forgotten. I still feel that way. The demonstration in this event did that.

In the second event against the same man with the level of hatred seemingly toward all of us. I felt different. First of all I felt fear for Bernie. And as I have said elsewhere I felt totally shut out. I did not see the goal as keeping the issue front and center but blaming Bernie Sanders. Especially when they demanded that he apologize for all the sins of racism. I thought this event was much more divisive that the first.

And let me tell you it did not help on DU at all that those who did not support Bernie made it all about how bad Bernie was. That turned it into a primary election issue instead of a BLM issue.

I like the idea of harmony on this issue because you are correct there never is total agreement on any issue.

BTW President Obama has a good speech on the issue today. Gives us a direction to work toward.

[OneGrassRoot]

111. Do you have a link to that speech?

Or can you tell me where the speech was held so I can search?

Thanks much.

[jwirr]

112. It is on the front page. I do not know who to link an issue. Too old.

[bettyellen]

123. There is for sure a lot of paranoia with some- everything is a CT or a meme.....

And people dismissed as being shills, mostly for Hillary. Or 1%ers, lol. It's pretty embarrassing to read all that crap here.

[Iggo]

29. .

[Kali]

31. k and r

the defensiveness is predictable and even somewhat understandable, but like you I don't assume it is personal to me and I try to listen.

just listen people, try to hear what is being conveyed without a need to react, reply, defend. listen.

[OneGrassRoot]

125. Listen.

Yes, we desperately need to learn how to listen and really hear. We as a society seem to have lost that particular ability, with all the outlets to express ourselves these days.

Thanks, Kali.

[NRaleighLiberal]

33. Excellent post. K and R.

[OneGrassRoot]

126. ...

back atcha.

[OneGrassRoot]

35. Please forgive me for disappearing...family crisis

I may have to take SO to the ER, so I may not be back tonight. I didn't intend to literally drop it and leave, but I shall return....

[mmonk]

36. I hope everything is ok.

Best wishes.

[Hekate]

39. Thanks for this OP. Hope all is well with your family. nt

[Starry Messenger]

72. **vibes**

Great OP.

[OneGrassRoot]

94. Thank you...

We've been dealing with a medical crisis since the first of the year but he is FINALLY scheduled for surgery on Monday 8/24. I'm constantly vigilant about having to go to the ER, however. Hour by hour...

[bvar22]

37. You said:

"Unless you were in the audience in Seattle, the two women protesters were not talking to you."

Not true.
They were talking and performing for TV cameras that sent their images around the World.

Do you believe they would have shown up to a small event that wasn't televised?
I don't.

[OneGrassRoot]

96. Here is my perspective...

for what it's worth. We can each look at the same events and come away with completely different interpretations. I'm leaning toward chalking that up to us simply having different, unique personality types. We respond to things differently.

So, I do believe they chose that event because Sanders is getting coverage -- at the time specifically within progressive media and circles...the very audience most likely supportive of the cause of #BlackLivesMatter. Certainly all disruptive protests aim to be heard by as many people as possible and nowadays that megaphone can be amplified exponentially with social media, which influences more traditional media coverage.

However, the way I perceived what was said was that it was aimed very specifically at Seattle residents. Seattle is, quite frankly, a very white city. It is known to be progressive, but it really isn't a racially diverse city.

But that really doesn't matter to me. #BlackLivesMatter isn't an organization -- it's a cause, a message, a principle...and some advocates of the principle of racial justice are going to disrupt in ways some of us aren't comfortable with.

The difference is, for whatever reasons (again, I'm leaning toward personality type -- not good or bad, mind you), some were personally offended (whether in that Seattle audience or not) and it has led to a morass of indignation, while others took no offense at all even if we weren't completely comfortable with how two women -- only two women, mind you -- expressed their anger in an attempt to be heard.

I don't want to tell people to move on, not with all this animosity imbued in our interactions. I really want to work through it in order to collaborate more passionately, together.

How, I don't know....

[Hekate]

40. KnR OneGrassRoot

[OneGrassRoot]

97. ...

[Spitfire of ATJ]

47. "...feeling personally attacked and maligned every time a critique of White America is shared."

It's the "NOT ME!!!" syndrome.

You also see it when you point out that a majority of white males vote Republican.

[Kip Humphrey]

48. Truth: #BLM's tactics are working brilliantly. If that makes you uncomfortable,good!

[etherealtruth]

51. + infinity

[Sienna86]

49. OGR, just wonderful to have you back

Reading and re-reading your post. Thank you.

[OneGrassRoot]

99. ...

[murielm99]

52. I am glad you made this attempt, OGR.

Even though I knew there would be dismissive and sarcastic posts, we have to keep trying.

There are offended and angry Bernie supporters all over the net. That is where it is coming from.

We need to keep the dialogue going, no matter how unresponsive they are. It might sway a few people, even if they are too timid to speak.

[OneGrassRoot]

100. I sure hope so...

Personally, I'm not one to encourage people to "just move on" -- not with all this animosity that remains beneath the surface and festers. We don't have to agree on everything, we each have different personality types with different levels of tolerance for various behaviors, but we do need to be able to have respectful dialogue in order to work together in harmony.

[Trajan]

53. I am going to work on one thing during the Primary Season

Nominate Bernie Sanders ....

I figure all of you will fix everything else .. I sure as hell can't ...

[tblue]

58. I'm sorry but

that made me because (I think) I know what you mean.

I'm for Bernie _because_ I believe he's the best thing for BLM (among many other things) of all the current presidential hopefuls. I'm black (shouldn't matter) and I have followed him closely over the years, and that's the direction I've decided I am going, not that anyone cares.

If I could, I'd fix the entire world right now, but I can't. So I'll register voters and try to get the best person elected president, same as I do in every GE, truth be told. 'Sall I can do.

[Trajan]

59. You effin ROCK!

I totally agree ... Bernie is our best option for many reasons, including being the best chance in decades to bring the force of government against the ossified racist institutions that permeate both the public and private sphere ...

I cannot imagine any candidate today who is better prepared to deal with all of those issues ... If one exists, then please bring them forward ..

Have a good weekend !

[stillwaiting]

56. Cosigned, sealed, delivered.

We as progressives need to rise above any "hurt feelings" and stand strong with our black brothers and black sisters. We must stand together. I'll do so even when someone who is black believes I'm a white supremacist. That doesn't matter to me. I'll keep speaking out and fighting to course correct in this country. It's fucking gross what's happening right now, and I have nothing but extreme compassion for racial minorities in the U.S.A.

I also have an extreme desire to do everything I can to help impose a RADICAL restructuring of our justice system. No tinkering please. Big, huge changes need to be made and enforced. Many laws need to be changed, and new laws need to be created.

[OneGrassRoot]

101. I am with you.

Nice to "meet" you, btw.

[Deny and Shred]

57. Does BLM want political allies?

I still can't understand why Bernie Sanders is the BLM target. Has he been president the last 6 1'2 years? Was he the AG that avoided the social problems these last several years? Is he one of the Republican contenders that could care less?

If you can't see that the political history of Bernie Sanders makes him someone with whom BLM can find common ground, then I'd say the BLM movement is doomed. If its a 'white man's world' in which white men 'can't get it' and most won't try, why go after the one guy who for 50 years has fought the fight - despite not getting it. It amounts to spitting in the face of a lifetime of: peaceful protest, taking unpopular righteous stands, and dilligent work toward change.

If the whole problem is the 'whiteness' of the crowd, Then is the prescription to control the messaging and kiss lots of babies, stand next to black and latino folks a lot on stage, speak in Spanish for the cameras? I guess some like that sort of disingenuous politicking. Maybe take selfies with the likes of Kim & Kanye on the way to a fundraiser?

[Hydra]

76. They claim to not want allies and pretty much think we're all part of the problem

They are, however, supporting actions by questionable members for questionable reasons that seem to have nothing to do with saving AA lives.

I was working the social justice movement before they came along, and I paused long enough to see if #BLM would be a spark point like the taking the flag down moment. It's not really happening on the ground, so I'm just going to work around it as I have to.

[Nay]

98. +1,000,000. My sentiments exactly. Thank you.

[OneGrassRoot]

102. I realize this specific interaction likely feels like a broken record...

but since you and I haven't had this specific discussion, I'll share my personal perspective, as a white Sanders supporter.

First, #BlackLivesMatter isn't an organization, per se. It is a cause, a movement, a message, with networks of people advancing that message. I liken it to the early days of #OWS as far as structure, or lack thereof.

If we stay stuck on the intentions and actions of two people, we will remain mired in this morass of indignation.

Some of us may disagree or be uncomfortable with the tactics of those two women while simultaneously not only continuing to fully support the movement and message itself but also not condemning the two women and, quite simply, having respect for the anger and rage they express which is rooted in real pain.

Again, some of us simply did not take it personally.

Bernie didn't appear to.

But even if every single person of color who is engaged in the #BLM movement truly was "targeting" Bernie, which isn't the case, I can think of one very, very good reason for starting very specifically with Bernie to disrupt with the intention of being seen and heard in order for the message of racial justice and equality to be at the forefront of this political campaign season.

The reason is that Bernie and those who support him are already in many ways in alignment with and supportive of racial justice. It is the precise audience who would be most likely to not only listen, but join them in putting racial justice -- very specifically, not merely lumped in with economic justice -- at the forefront of discussion.

These protests thus far (at least from what I've seen, and they have included other politicians over the last week) are about ACTING UP. They are silent discussions or silent protests. These protesters are adamant about BEING SEEN AND HEARD, having felt invisible for so long (except to police). They may come off as if they're attacking the candidate and the audience but, again, that offends some people while it doesn't others.

I can't explain the difference other than personality types.

I agree about hoping the candidates don't become disingenuous, like planting people of color for photo ops or whatnot. Personally, I would like to hear Bernie speak VERY SPECIFICALLY to the rift which has occurred over the last week. Put it out there and let's talk about it, and he can lead the conversation.

[Deny and Shred]

139. I appreciate the thread, and your response

You wrote:

'The reason is that Bernie and those who support him are already in many ways in alignment with and supportive of racial justice. It is the precise audience who would be most likely to not only listen, but join them in putting racial justice -- very specifically, not merely lumped in with economic justice -- at the forefront of discussion.'

Why is it Bernie's job to put social justice at the forefront? Because he probably has the most receptive audience! That deserves a rim shot.

Its probably correct that they are the most receptive, but the conversation since this event is anything but acknowledging that. The meme is that Bernie doesn't get it, he's too white and it makes him a WEAK candidate. Somehow these two women representing BLM exposed a weakness that places him firmly behind Mrs. Clinton. The fact that he 'got it' and immediately began referencing the social justice component in the myriad speeches he's since given at non-fundraisers has been glossed over completely by BLM supporters.

Should he have had the SS whisk them to a side room beforehand, then give them 15 minutes full of "you should do x,y & z?"

Why Bernie, and why does Hillary get a pass?

[OneGrassRoot]

144. I can't really gauge what the opinions are... (w/edit)

Last edited Sun Aug 16, 2015, 09:28 AM - Edit history (1)

I don't get the impression that a lot people of color dislike Bernie after the Seattle event. I see a lot of support for Bernie, perhaps more than if Seattle never happened. His profile was definitely raised which is a good thing!

I don't know how reflective pockets of DU and even twitter are of what's really going on in the rest of America who don't engage in political discussion nearly as much as we do. I don't have a feel for that, to be honest. Without a doubt I do believe there is a rift -- with some Sanders supporters dissing #BLM and vice versa, but I can't gauge how widespread that is, especially among those who weren't even aware of Sanders as a candidate before all this happened.

I suppose when he visits more diverse cities we'll be able to tell more by the diversity of the crowds. Iowa isn't helpful in that regard.

EDIT TO ADD: Oops, I forgot to address the Hillary factor.

A panel discussion among all PoC on MSNBC just now addressed the fact that protesters can't GET to Hillary in order to disrupt; she has SS detail.

Name recognition is a huge factor right now, imho. Everything that has happened has propelled Bernie's name into more mainstream dialogue amongst citizens of all skin colors.

We shall see. In the long run, however, I don't think what happened in Seattle will have harmed Bernie's campaign whatsoever. The protesters aren't trying to make friends; their focus is to be disruptive in order to be seen and heard, and to keep the pressure on so their message doesn't fade into the background or get lumped in with other issues as has happened so often in the past, specifically with Democrats.

Just my 2 cents.

[99th_Monkey]

63. I totally get that Blacks are enraged about unarmed AAs getting murdered by racist police

Thank you so much for your incredibly clear and mostly even-handed OP about
Black Lives Matter and Bernie Sanders. I super-appreciate you doing that. i
found it exceptionally read-able and very helpful to my understanding.

I'd like to PM you on DU with an extended reply, and with a few questions,
since I'm feeling "once burned twice shy" about posting anything about
this in the forums, at all.

Would that be ok?

[aikoaiko]

73. That's funny. That's what I just did.

I'm tired of the fighting over this, too.

[OneGrassRoot]

104. Absolutely, please do. :) n/t

[99th_Monkey]

113. Cool. PM on the way. nt

[Babel_17]

74. I saw the taking of the microphone, the wild insults, the refusal to allow Sanders to speak, ...

... the bowdownbernie hashtag, and then the later insistence that none of these things were relevant to any discussions about the message delivery of Marissa Janae Johnson, who claimed to be a leader of the Black Lives Matter chapter in Seattle, as being something of a sticking point for many people. I guess we all remember that time on DU differently. To be clear, I don't remember what you wrote in your second paragraph as being the history I lived through.

Given that our memories are different I'm not sure of there being any utility to responding further. You say a lot of other insightful things about sharing experiences but I think any discussion we might have about them would keep circling back to our different perspective on recent history here. But I read your post and felt where you're coming from, if that means anything.

Have a good night!

[OneGrassRoot]

128. ...

I'll just say hello, and that it's nice to "meet" you here, and thanks for reading.

[WDIM]

77. I am a person of color.

Although some might call me white I am a person of color. We are all people of color. And we all are one. You think i dont know the life you lived well you dont mine.

Depending on where you are in the world determines if you are a minority. Deviding people with labels based on their skin color their religion their hair their nose or the shape of their eyes is what keeps us all down. Keeps us in fear and keeps us powerless to effect change.

Just as Dr. King and Malcolm X realized before they were murdered it is not white vs black. It is powerful vs the powerless. Greedy vs the giving. Rich vs poor. The vengeful vs the forgiving. The war mongers vs the peace makers. And the evil vs the loving. There is a whole lot more good people in this world than evil. There is a whole lot more love than hate. But it is the fear of eachother that keeps us apart. An irrational fear that prejudices us and devides us.

I say be color blind. When i look at a stranger and people of all colors i see myself for we are all random variations of the same soul. One love one heart.

Now lets get together and make this shit right. I have faith in humanity but now is the time to demand true change by changing ourselves to look through a person and see their core. To approach all with love. It seems love has become a dirty word or a hippie joke but love truly is the answer. If the officers would of had love in their hearts they wouldnt kill needlessly. If the banksters had love in their hearts they wouldnt rob needlessly. If gang members have love in their hearts they wouldnt murder needless. If the drug dealer had love in his heart he wouldnt sell poison needlessly. If the politicians have love in their heart they wouldnt lie needlessly.

With love for all i pray for all a night of peace. Thank you.

[OneGrassRoot]

105. ...

I so very much want to be in the space you describe...only see love. One love, one heart. Respecting and appreciating what makes us unique individuals, but recognizing our inherent interconnectedness.

We have a long way to go, though I believe critical mass can be reached very quickly in our now.

Right now my mantra is to do what I can to decrease suffering, increase joy.

[bvar22]

129. Beautiful. Well written.

You should post this as an OP.

worth repeating:

"Just as Dr. King and Malcolm X realized before they were murdered it is not white vs black.
It is powerful vs the powerless.

Greedy vs the giving.

Rich vs poor.

The vengeful vs the forgiving.

The war mongers vs the peace makers.

And the evil vs the loving.

There is a whole lot more good people in this world than evil. There is a whole lot more love than hate. But it is the fear of eachother that keeps us apart. An irrational fear that prejudices us and devides us.

As long as the "powerful" can keep us divided, they will continue to rule & oppress.
When the Working Class& The Poor realize WE have more in common with each other than we have in common with the 1% and their Mouth Pieces in Washington,
then WE can have "change|" too.

[tavalon]

78. Even if you were in the audience in Seattle,

those people weren't actually talking about you. They made it seem like they were, but they were just co-opting a really big audience for their message. They didn't express it well but they tried. I'm a Seattlite and missed the rally but I get what they were trying to say. Our police force is highly racist and anyone here who pretends otherwise is pretty blind. Many people here are pretty self congratulatory around their "tolerance", a term I find kind of amusing. Tolerance? How about acceptance of all? Seattle isn't there yet and I know it, even though my skin melanin is lacking, my brain cells aren't.

I do have a hard time understanding why I'm supposed to get my dander up over a little truth telling. Sure, calling all whites "white supremacists" wasn't the most elegant way of starting a conversation but start it it did, so there's that. I just wish every one would take a deep breath and start listening to #BlackLivesMatter.

[OneGrassRoot]

106. What you said.

I'm not sure how many people realize that about Seattle; it's progressive, but it is NOT very diverse.

Anyway, I agree with all you said.

Thanks.

[Maedhros]

130. We're listening. But we also have the right to speak back.

If this problem is to be solved, it will require a conversation.

[OneGrassRoot]

131. I agree...however...

I know it is a really tough thing for many people for a variety of reasons, but I do believe it would be wise to allow those who haven't had a seat at the table, so to speak, to be heard first. I believe the AA community as a whole are long overdue to be heard about the entirety of their experiences and grievances and fears. I choose to cede my seat at the table so they speak their piece.

I believe that about all groups of people who feel invisible and/or oppressed and marginalized within our systems.

So, yeah, after we truly listen, I'm all about dialogue. Back and forth with the continued intention to keep listening, not just try to sway anyone else to our point of view. Share our stories -- all of our stories have value, regardless of the color of our skin. We all learn from one another.

[Democat]

83. "Why are you taking everything so personally, in a way that is preventing useful dialogue?"

Maybe this quote should be directed at the BLM activists, not the people you think?

[OneGrassRoot]

107. Perhaps.

Just as we white folks aren't a monolith, neither are people of color. We each have different personality types and respond differently to the same events.

Your question might be a good discussion point in an attempt to work through what has happened, with an eye toward more understanding and healing.

[DustyJoe]

103. OP Titles

I find that if I just scroll past any title containing '<pick a color> folks' or '<pick a color> people' or '<pick a color> privelege'
and just click on titles that interest me as containing content I might find interesting. The probability
of getting embroiled in a flamewar thread lessens and less comments sent to juries for hiding. Just my experience anyway.

[OneGrassRoot]

127. Are you saying...

that you feel I may have chosen a good subject title? If so, that makes me happy, because I tend to SUCK at that...lol.

I think you're saying when specific phrases like white privilege, etc, are part of an OP title, it turns you off, precisely because those OPs usually lead to flame wars within the thread?

I just want to make sure I'm understanding what point you're making.

[DustyJoe]

141. Correct

Your OP title piqued the interest without revealing content, and your post itself was refreshing to read.

Yes the turn-off titles I listed I just don't read because they seem to exist to
mainly bring reactionary comments and DUers that try to defuse the reactives
are often textually pummelled off the thread. Not my cup of tea.

[Nye Bevan]

116. Folks who want "useful dialogue" should probably avoid phrases like "white supremacist liberals"

in relation to supporters of Bernie Sanders. Just a thought.

[OneGrassRoot]

120. The language around the subject of racial injustice is charged...

to say the least.

When it devolves into name calling versus trying to openly and honestly discuss a subject in general, or when sharing one's own personal story, that's rarely productive, I agree.

I'm going to try to write a more thorough reply to this later. We must find a way to discuss these issues without denigrating one another or feeling we're being attacked. I hear what you're saying though.

[Spazito]

122. Excellent OP...

I completely agree with you. I take no offense, as a white woman, to it being pointed out white privilege, white supremacy structurally is something I have benefited from just because of the color of my skin. As a mother I would worry about my children, my loved ones, but I NEVER had to worry about them walking out the door and being killed because of the color of their skin.

People of color, the black community have all the same worries about their loved ones as I do PLUS the very lives of their children, their loved ones, being at risk solely because of the color of their skin.

[OneGrassRoot]

132. ...

Nice to see you again, Spazito.

Thanks for reading.

[Spazito]

134. It's great to see you back posting as well!

I've always found your posts to be thoughtful and kind, you were missed.

[Butterbean]

142. This is how I try to think.

Yes, my anger flares at the nastiness being thrown around, and I *don't* appreciate some of the ugly that is being thrown around. However, were it my sons, my husband, my wife, my loved ones being murdered simply because of the color of their skin, I would be raising hell too. I would be flinging around all sorts of verbal abuse and ugliness, too, because I would be mad as hell and utterly terrified. As a mother, in particular, I cannot imagine the fear that AA mothers feel in their hearts, in particular for their sons. I just can't imagine. The terror and anxiety would be crippling for me.

So while I might not like some of the things that are being said, as a mother who would walk across hot coals for her babies' safety, I understand. I get it. These are desperate, terrified people who are trying to get somebody, ANYBODY to listen and save their babies' lives. That's all.

[OneGrassRoot]

143. That's it. That's it right there.

I would be raising hell in ways I probably can't imagine right now, ways that would no doubt offend and turn off many people. And my goal wouldn't be to make friends or allies but to WAKE PEOPLE THE F*CK UP!!!