"There's your problem - police believe that everyone they encounter is trying to kill them"

[phantom power]

If you want to know what is driving these Black Lives Matter protesters to act up, you need look no further than this:

Defiant, sometimes choking back tears, a Charlotte police officer testified on Friday that he had had no choice but to shoot an unarmed 24-year-old car crash victim on a darkened road, despite never seeing anything in the man’s hands.

“He had a good chance to get my gun from me and take it from me,” the police officer, Randall Kerrick, who was suspended without pay after the fatal shooting, told his defense lawyer. “There was absolutely nothing else I could have done.”

...

"He had a good chance to take my gun away from me?" What the hell is that?

This tells you what black people are facing every day in this country. Some cop rolls up sees a black man and shoots him. And then he excuses himself by saying the unarmed man could have gotten his gun away from him at some point so he needed to shoot him 10 times.

This is the one of the rare occasions when a cop is put on trial without video. And it happened, obviously, when they realized that the poor victim was just some dude who'd been in a car accident and was looking for some help.

But you have to love this. When the prosecutor brought up the inconsistencies in the officer's testimony he replied:

“Ma’am, this was taken just a little bit after I was in a fight for my life,” Officer Kerrick said. “I’m sorry if there are a few inconsistencies.”

Except he wasn't in a fight for his life, was he? The man was an unarmed car accident victim. But apparently this man still believes he was fighting for his life. There's your problem --- police believe that everyone they encounter is trying to kill them. Particularly if they're black.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2015/08/there-was-absolutely-nothing-else-i.html

[TDale313]

1. That's a huge part of the problem.

Too many police see the public, especially PoC, as the enemy and a potential threat.

[phantom power]

4. It disturbs me enormously that this cop sincerely thinks he's making sense

This guy is well into the zone of just pulling far-fetched scenarios out of his ass. Anybody with that level of paranoia is a walking shooting spree waiting to happen. He ought to be in a psych ward, not carrying a badge and a gun.

[malaise]

23. Was this the youngster who was seeking help after an accident?

It's murder most foul - modern lynching.

[Chemisse]

77. But I would argue this is typical!!

This attitude explains many (but not all) of the shootings we have seen in past months.

The others are pure sadistic racism.

[Maedhros]

17. And too many in the public see the police as unerring rational actors. [n/t]

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

45. Even when they are running away from them. n/t

[Iggo]

2. Cowardly cops are an enormous part of the problem!

[BillZBubb]

7. That is a major problem, that's for sure.

That and they know if they kill someone there are three magic words to escape any repercussions: "I was afraid".

[Shandris]

8. Perhaps we should get rid of police altogether.

Would that be a better start? After all, there's no way to test for 'cowardice', and even a brave person now can be cowardly later, so we either have to find a way to understand why a human may fear for his life and accommodate for it in the course of performing law enforcement duties, or get rid of law enforcement altogether.

Tough choice, really.

[Iggo]

10. Ah-choo!

Sorry.

I'm allergic.

[Shandris]

14. It's okay. Cleanliness tends to upset some people's allergies.

I forgive you.

[Iggo]

15. So does straw.

[Shandris]

16. So does fish.

I can do this all day. If you've got a point, get to it. If not, have a Coke and a smile.

[Maedhros]

20. Better training, higher standards, civilian oversight. [n/t]

[Shandris]

21. Better training, absolutely. Its unconscionable that the military has to have...

...weeks upon weeks of training, but cops -- with military gear! -- can get by with a very small amount. Higher standards of course also.

Civilian oversight could be easily tampered with (over a reasonably small period of time) and as such, I'm a bit more leery of it without a more detailed plan. IMO, any change for the future MUST focus on being uncorruptible first and foremost among all other considerations. Not planning for that is what allowed us to get here in the first place.

[Maedhros]

22. Absolutely incorruptible is an impossible standard, IMO.

But we must work constantly to try and come as close as we can.

However we do it - community oversight, independent review, whatever - we need to ensure transparency and accountability for police officers who abuse their position.

[markpkessinger]

39. My argument with the "better training, higher standards" thing . . .

. . . is that you can train a cop all you want, but until you address the underlying culture of law enforcement in this country, there is no guarantee that a cop will use that training.

[Shandris]

42. That's an interesting point, but when you refer to...

...'culture' of law enforcement, specifically (or generally in understandable terms) what are you talking about? The Blue Wall/Shield/Barrier? The seemingly shared mentality? The Citizens-As-Enemy or Urban-Warrior-Wannabe? Something else?

I think any group with enforcement power is going to be susceptible to a seperate culture (Stanford Prison), but I don't see it as something unsurmountable (but admittedly very challenging). Another question that occurs to me seems to be this, though: since almost every social movement is reacting to cultures of control (and there is no doubt the police are a culture of control), is another one -- no matter how well-regulated -- actually going to be accepted? And, furthermore, SHOULD it be? Is there another way?

[Maedhros]

57. I guess I included that in the better standards/civilian oversight elements.

But you are entirely correct - law enforcement culture needs to change.

I guess my argument would be that to start to change the culture, we need to:

1. Hire better people to be policemen.
2. Maybe reduce the number of veterans who become police?
3. Better training.
4. Community policing.
5. Get rid of the military equipment.
6. Zero tolerance for abusive misconduct.

[mythology]

59. You also need strong and consistent punishments for crossing the line

There's a cop (off duty at the time of this incident) in Massachusetts who was just filmed threatening to "blow a hole through your fucking head".

Which is bad, but this same cop was previously reprimanded for telling a bystander that he should go lay his brother down on railroad tracks while on duty. For that he got a verbal reprimand (I'm sure it was quite stern).

Without actual useful punishments, they aren't going to learn that in fact no they shouldn't do stupid things.

[tblue37]

70. And settlements for abuse and murder need to hit the PD's and the cop's wallets, not the

taxpayers'.

[tblue37]

69. And no more get out of jail free cards. They must be held accountable

when they break the law, when they brutalize people, and when they kill people without actually being in danger or in a scenario where someone else is in real danger. Killing someone must not be their first response to everything.

[Bubzer]

54. Its not a question of cowardice.

Police are being trained to act in this fashion. They are literally being trained to expect to be shot at.
Add to that, they're trained to assume everyone is a potential cop-killer. The training has to change.
The mentality has to change.

[tblue37]

71. And they are also being actively trained in what excuses to use to justify

having been caught brutalizing or killing someone when they had no good reason to do so.

I read an article by a former cop who said that such training in justifying bad actions was a significant part of what he experienced in the academy.

[Bubzer]

74. +1

Too true.

[icarusxat]

41. positive peer presure...

If the police are willing to protect one or ten cowards in their ranks it makes them all look like cowards. Maybe it is time for a "well regulated militia" as opposed to and out of control bunch of cowards out to break and kill instead of protect and serve.

[tblue37]

72. And as evident from the case where the cop was beaten, pistol whipped, and left unconscious,

while bystanders uploaded images to the internet and mocked him as he lay there, allowing "bad cops" to abuse people and get away with no consequences turns the public against all cops, so that they end up cheering and mocking when a cop, any cop, gets taken down like that.

The so-called "good cops" need to clean up their ranks, because until they stop covering for the worst abusers, they will be seen as an enemy occupation force by the populace, and that puts all of them in danger.

There was a recent incident in which a black man who shot and killed a cop later turned himself in and said he shot the cop because he was defending himself from an aggressive cop. Considering the statistics, the shooter actually might have had more reason to use the "I was afraid for my life" defense in such a situation than most cops do when they kill people these days:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/sister-says-tremaine-wilbourn-suspect-killing-memphis-officer-acted-self-n403856

Memphis Police Shooting: Sister Says Suspect Tremaine Wilbourn Acted in Self-Defense

The sister of the man accused of gunning down a Memphis police officer claims her brother "was defending himself."

Tremaine Wilbourn, 29, was being held on $9 million bond on Tuesday on first-degree murder charges for the fatal shooting of Memphis cop Sean Bolton, 33, according to court documents.

Wilbourn's sister, Callie Watkins, said her brother was acting in self-defense when he shot Bolton multiple times on Saturday night.

Obviously he could be lying, especially since he was an ex-con who had been imprisoned for armed robbery, and the scene of the shooting might have been a drug deal (though, again, that's what the PD says, and we no longer automatically accept PD statements as trustworthy). Then again, though, we have seen police get really, really violent with people, often without any good reason for the violence, so it is easy to imagine that this guy really did think it was kill or be killed at that moment.

[LiberalArkie]

52. You can trace all this crap back to the COPS tv show.

[Travis_0004]

3. I'm not sure how else to interperet somebody charging right at me.

I would probably go into defensive mode as well. What would you do?

[virgogal]

9. I used to feel the way that you do but now

I think all PDs should be completely eliminated-municipal,county,and state.

The people could do a better,fairer job of of protecting themselves.

The taxpayers wouldn't be footing the bill for racist cops.

[Travis_0004]

24. I would be willing to bet a million dollars that eliminating cops would not be an improvement

I would expect violence to rise, and a lot of vigilante justice.

[arcane1]

28. "The people could do a better,fairer job of of protecting themselves."??

Lynch mobs, perhaps?

[BillZBubb]

11. I certainly wouldn't simply shoot them to death.

Cops need to be trained how to deal with that situation in a non-lethal way instead of having a green light to kill.

[Chemisse]

76. Instead of describing it as someone charging at you, how about running toward you?

That's how normal, nonparanoid people would see this situation.

And in fact, that is what the poor guy was doing, which proves the cop misinterpreted the situation.

[niyad]

5. hey, randy boy, if an unarmed, injured civilian can get your gun away from you, then you

are not very well-trained, are you? you should be embarrassed to admit that such a thing could happen.

[Skittles]

6. that right there is gun humping mentality in general

[BillZBubb]

12. Yep, and juries eat it up.

[Eleanors38]

18. Haven't you heard how gun-humpers will be over-powered, so don't get a gun?

The irony is blunderess. You shouldn't get a gun because you are likely to be overcome and have it used by an attacker. Well, here is that argument thrown back at ya.

[TexasProgresive]

34. I remember a friend of mine's uncle giving him some advice.

My friend had 2 semi-automatic pistols; a 45 cal. colt and a 38 super colt. James Bond was all the rage and he wanted a 25 cal Beretta like Mr. Bonds. He bought one and showed it to his uncle.

"Son, you need to file this front sight off of this thing."
"Why would I do that?"
"So it won't hurt so bad."
"Hurt so bad?"
"When it jams and someone takes it away from you and shoves it (where the sun doesn't shine)"

Well you get the picture.

[Eleanors38]

40. Ha! Like the "Guy goes into a gunshop" and wants his .38 modified for bear hunting.

"So it won't hurt so much when the bear rams it up your ass."

[Eleanors38]

13. "...good chance to take my gun..." is heard a lot in certain DU threads...

as a reason why people should not arm for self-defense, either in the home or carrying. Yet, this is his argument.

I don't believe him.

I don't believe in the over all speculation, either.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

19. Didn't cops used to get in trouble back in olden times when they shot an unarmed person?

Maybe I watched too many '70s cop shows.

Now cops don't even have to use a "throw down piece" - they just have to say they were askeered.

I honestly think it is a problem in training AND conscious racism AND subconscious racism we all deal with.

I think they train these guys by showing dash cam videos of cops getting killed on the job and it scares the shit out of them.

That rookie cop who shot the black kid in the hip/leg when he went to retrieve his license out of his truck - I almost felt sorry for the cop. You could hear the terror in his voice. Thankfully the kid lived. But I wonder what was drilled in to this cop's head in training - mix in racism and it's a lethal combination.

[jalan48]

25. Thank the NRA.

If guns were restricted in this country like they are in places like England police wouldn't be assuming every encounter with someone might become fatal. Gun nuttery is causing massive social problems here.

[Skidmore]

30. How many of those policemen supported the notion of a

gun in every hand? I know of several police chiefs in the area here who did. Now the nation is armed to the teeth and they have to face the monster they helped the NRA to create because somehow law enforcement seemed to think that more people with guns would make their jobs easier to do.

[jalan48]

32. I haven't heard that where I live in Oregon.

[Skidmore]

33. It has happened more frequently that was good.

Here's a link to an article.

http://bearingarms.com/sheriffs-and-police-chiefs-show-support-for-the-second-amendment/

The list of sheriff’s associations, police chiefs, and officers continues to grow as more and more of these brave men and women are standing up to Obama’s anti-gun agenda. Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers association reports that law enforcement groups across the country have made the decision to pledge support in protecting our Second Amendment rights.

It’s a touching movement that’s seen a wide range of activity in all fifty states. But what’s remarkable is that nobody forced these officers into doing it. Both CSPOA or any other similar organization went and contacted sheriffs asking them to make statements. According to CSPOA, “this is something the sheriffs did on their own, or because constituents requested it of them”....more

[jalan48]

38. Actually, from what I read police don't want citizens to have access to assault type rifles.

It makes their jobs more difficult.

[NutmegYankee]

60. It's because they are scared.

Their bullet-proof vests are as effective as tissue paper for stopping a rifle round. Ironically, the bolt action deer hunting rifle rounds are the most dangerous of them all.

[uponit7771]

81. +1

[davidn3600]

26. That's how they are trained...

They are trained to assume everyone has a weapon.

[Fred Sanders]

37. That is true...but with only 320 million guns in civilian hands, is that assumption well founded?

[SoapBox]

27. Wish they would go after that guy that has been lecturing cops...

To shoot IMMEDIATELY!

He has his own security firm in MN and gets $1000 an hour to lecture and also testify in the defense of cops.

The guy needs to NEVER be hired by any police department again.

[KittyWampus]

29. Add to this the fact paranoia is a side effect of steroids.

Cops on steroids… what could go wrong?

[GoneFishin]

44. Exactly. I believe strongly that steroids are widely used by cops.

[tea and oranges]

56. Yes!

It astonishes me that cops aren't subjected to drug testing in the aftermath of a shooting!

[Ed Suspicious]

31. What do you expect him to do when it's us (police) against them (PoC) scenario as they see it.

Corrupt and rotten to the core this system is. I don't know what can be to eliminate the problem but this is for sure; There needs to be standards when it comes to hiring. There needs to be new ways of training. There needs to be far harsher penalties on police abuses. There needs to be an external department that replaces internal affairs who is absolutely adversarial to police in general. No more cops policing cops. We need a department of bullshit detection and prevention at the federal level.

[Fred Sanders]

36. We need less guns...it is not that complicated.

[Chemisse]

79. All that as well as a new (or old) philosophy of policing.

That police are there to serve the public and protect neighborhoods.

[Fred Sanders]

35. Well said! But with only 320 million GUNS in civilian hands, what are the police afraid of? The solution is MORE

guns for police and civilians!

(Message brought to you by the NRA)

[Beartracks]

43. Interesting. As citizens, cops are likely trained by systemic racism, just like the rest of us.

Some of these trigger-happy cops may not be consciously racist -- they're just trained that way.

=====================

[WestCoastLib]

46. Firefighters put civilian lives ahead of their own.

Why aren't Police officers trained to to the same?

We've established that it's "a dangerous job". It's not for everyone. It shouldn't be for everyone. Certainly the gun problem in this country makes it even more dangerous than it is in, say, Northern Europe. But even so, I would say the nature of the job is such that a police officer should be prepared to give his own life in any situation, before taking a life.

"I was afraid" should not be a defense.

I've never heard of a firefighter letting someone die because "they were scared". Which isn't to say it hasn't happened, I've just never heard of it happening and from everything I understand they are going into situations with a totally different mentality.

[packman]

47. Agreeing with previous thread - thank the NRA

pushing for everyone to be armed. What can a cop expect when he comes up to a situation? For Christ's sake, the NRA wants a gun in every citizen's hand . If I was a cop I would think the person I'm approaching is likely to be armed. In countries that have stricter gun laws, I am sure the police approaching a person does not have the trepidation and expectations of harm that they do in this country.

[montana_hazeleyes]

48. I remember following this murder when it happened.

No officer was in a fight for his life at all.

The man who was killed was taking a friend home in an affluent area. He crashed his car and was seeking help. He knocked on a door and a woman who was alone with her baby thought it was her husband. When she saw who it was, she slammed the door shut, started a horrible house alarm sound non-stop.

I heard her call to 911. She wailed and was so afraid on and on and on for 17 mins. and got the cops all riled up against this man before they even got there.

He NEVER was a threat to anyone at anytime. All he was, was upset from the crash, the wailing house alarm and nobody would listen to what he was trying to say. HE was probably in fear for his life at that point.
And if he had wanted to hurt the woman or enter the house he could have easily barged in when she first opened the door to him.

Then they tried to say he was drunk or on drugs. Toxicology showed NO alcohol or drugs in his system at all. I believe he was killed because he was a big black man who was upset. He never stood a chance.

This really upset me badly. I am hoping he will get justice.

[ms liberty]

49. There is video...

From the cop's dash cam, and the victim was very clear and easy to see (from the headlights on the cop car) as he jogged up to the cop, with his hands open and clearly with no gun in them, and no attitude to make it appear he was going to attack anyone. The video doesn't show the shooting, which appears to take place out of range of the dashcam and somewhere on the passenger side of the car. It's been shown repeatedly on the Charlotte news all week, since it was shown at the trial. This cop wasn't the only cop on the scene, but he's the only one who fired his weapon. Charlotte is a very diverse city and their Police Chief is a black guy who is well liked and respected; this is not something that has been shrugged off by Charlotteans, and it is being taken seriously. This guy should never have been a cop.

[kacekwl]

50. I don't blame them for thinking that way,

but that's part of the training they should go through to deal with that and not jump the gun with every stop they make. Especially with black people. It is a difficult job but this is getting out of control.

[blackspade]

55. I can definitly blame them for thinking that way.

Common sense and decency should be the rule of the day.
"Especially with black people" -- please clarify this part of your statement. It sounds terrible the way you worded it.

[kacekwl]

58. How's this ,

the police seem to feel more afraid when they encounter black people hence the imbalance of police killing unarmed black people.

[blackspade]

62. Much better!

But that side steps the issue.
Why are they more 'afraid?'
It is an entirely unfounded fear based on racism that is part of cop culture.
Their training only gives them the tools to exercise that racism and get away with it.
The results are the deaths of innocent unarmed members of the Black community.

[kacekwl]

67. That's what racism is

Fear. Proper training SHOULD give them the tools to do the job properly and professionally regardless of who you are engaging . No situation is the same but working consistently without prejudice goes a long way.

[tavalon]

51. Here's the problem with that kind of thinking

In the not too distant future, we will fulfill their worst fears. I am a middle aged white woman who is coming to fear police now. Why should I trust them? No, I'm not saying I would personally kill them - I'm not unhinged, but they are fostering the exact thing they fear, don't you think?

[blackspade]

53. +1000

It's fucking terrifying.

[madokie]

61. this needs to be stopped

some of the nicest people I've ever met have been AA

[ncjustice80]

63. Why do cops have laxer rules of engagement than the military?

Last I checked, you aren't supposed to fire a gun unless fired upon first in a peacekeeping operation. If they don't take away p*&s guns wholesale, they should make this standard practice again. Can't pull your gun out unless opponent has a gun that you CAN CONFIRM (none of this hands in your pockets bull-dookey), and can't shoot unless shot at.

If an officer can't win a fist fight or take a knife away from someone, they have no business being a cop. If they are scared of getting shot, they have no business being a cop. If they can't keep their racist attitude in check, they have no business being a cop.

[romanic]

64. It comes to training and paranoia I think.

Cops are trained to believe every situation (from a domestic violence dispute to a traffic stop) requires a gun. Unless the suspect or whoever is pointing a weapon at you, don't pull out your gun. There needs to be more training on how to diffuse a violatle situation without resorting to a gun.

[Lizzie Poppet]

65. They are also trained that if their weapon is taken from them...

...there is a very high probability it will be used against them. I have no idea if this is backed up by data or not (or if cops are disarmed in sufficient numbers to constitute a statistically-viable data pool). But whether or not it's actually the case, the fact that cops are trained to believe this is probably a big factor.

[ibegurpard]

66. the police need to start getting their own houses in order

They have completely lost the trust of the Black community and anyone else who's paying attention. Stop complaining you're afraid for your lives because of anger about law enforcement abuse and fucking DO something about it. Stop letting the "bad apples" you are protecting because of police fraternity put YOUR lives and the lives of the public at risk because if eroding public trust.

[tblue37]

68. K&R. nt

[hunter]

73. Is there any evidence that allowing police to carry guns at all times improves outcomes?

Would allowing middle school teachers to wear guns like police do improve classroom discipline?

The majority of cops don't seem to have the social skills required to deescalate rough situations.

The "our gangsters vs. their gangsters" mentality gets too many people killed, including a lot of people innocent of any crime.

Fools like the cop in this story simply shouldn't be allowed to carry guns, either professionally or privately.

Fools like the cop in this story shouldn't be cops at all.

[Dont call me Shirley]

75. It is part of their training now. That started being taught to police agencies in the late 1980's

"Fear the people, they are not your friend, but your enemy" a police official told me this in the late 80's as part of his new retraining program. He was very upset about this, being a fair and honest man.

[valerief]

78. Then the cop shouldn't be carrying a gun at all! Problem solved. nt

[uponit7771]

80. +1