Sentence in student sex case shocks ex-teacher in Oklahoma

[NaturalHigh]

A former small-town teacher was stunned Wednesday to be sentenced to serve 10 years in prison for sex crimes involving a student, her attorney said.

“I can’t say that we had ever considered it being that harsh,” said Hollis attorney David Cummins. “It (the sentence) was somewhere in the neighborhood of at least twice what we anticipated.”

Harmon County District Judge Richard Darby sentenced Jennifer Caswell, 29, to 15 years in prison with 5 years suspended on each of six crimes involving sex with a 15-year-old student. The sentences are to run at the same time.

Caswell’s sentence exceeds the prison time served by Mary Kay Letourneau, perhaps the most well-known teacher convicted of rape. Letourneau, who taught in a Seattle suburb, served seven years in prison beginning in 1998 for having sex with a student beginning when he was 12. They are now married.

http://newsok.com/sentence-in-student-sex-case-shocks-ex-teacher-in-oklahoma/article/5439826?custom_click=rss

[Oneironaut]

1. I'll be sure to shed a tear or two for someone who rapes 15-year-olds.

Also, it's great that the writer mentioned how a teacher married one of her victims.

[NobodyHere]

2. I think that's a little harsh

We really needs to ease up on the sentencing in this country.

[pintobean]

4. No we don't.

Violent crimes, like rape, assault, and murder, should carry very harsh penalties. This was rape.

[NobodyHere]

6. What harm was done in this case? Was she forcing him into sex?

I bet you the 15 year old is going around bragging that he was the victim of rape. Yet you want to spend $200,000 of taxpayer money putting this woman away?

[pintobean]

12. This should never happen.

Caswell pleaded guilty June 1 to three counts of second-degree rape, two counts of enticing a child and one count of forcible sodomy.

I'm guessing you're not a parent.

[DeadLetterOffice]

28. No one brags about being a rape victim.

Wtf is wrong with you?

Familiarize yourself with the issues of power dynamics and sex before saying it's fine that a 29 year old teacher was having sex with a 15 year old student.

[NobodyHere]

32. I've been in a similiar situation myself when I was a teen although the woman wasn't a teacher.

I was certainly bragging about it.

[pintobean]

40. I think I've read about that

in some Forum, years ago.

[PowerToThePeople]

47. It sucks when

they drag up the old mole accounts.

[pintobean]

50. lol. I agree with you

but I was talking about a magazine.

[treestar]

171. that does not mean she should have done it

and should not have been arrested for it - which you risked by bragging.

[Nye Bevan]

29. Child rape very often does not need physical force.

But a child cannot legally consent to sex with an adult. Despite what Whoopi Goldberg said about Roman Polanski raping the 13-year old.

[NaturalHigh]

31. The Polanski defenders really piss me off.

[Nye Bevan]

33. Me too.

[7962]

184. Oh man did THAT case piss me off! SO many talking about "poor Roman". nt

[Recursion]

62. OMG don't get me started on them

But, yeah. SSDD.

[Brickbat]

42. What the fuck is this shit right here?

[Recursion]

64. Seriously

WTF?

[Recursion]

60. What the actual fuck!!!!****!!!???

Was this actually just posted?

Child rape is not ok

I can't believe I have to say this here.

[Recursion]

67. To the jurors that let this comment stand: fuck all of you

Yes, this will be alerted on and probably hidden (and frankly hiding is the appropriate action, given the site's rules), but I've only ever had one hidden post before, and I'll be happy to take a second hide here.

I am a male victim of child sexual abuse, and this bullshit is exactly what keeps other men like me from coming forward. Guess what? I did go around bragging.... at the age of 10. Guess what else? It was still rape.

I cannot believe this bullshit.

Like I said, this probably will be deleted, and I respect that. I just can't let that go without a catharsis.

[NaturalHigh]

68. Whether or not it gets hidden, it's a brave post.

[DashOneBravo]

71. +100

[Recursion]

73. Thanks. Just had to get that off my chest (nt)

[lumberjack_jeff]

77. Thanks. n/t

[prayin4rain]

93. Good for you for speaking up. Posts minimizing child abuse are what should be hidden. n/t

[demmiblue]

132. +1

[Starry Messenger]

148. +1000

Glad to see this post wasn't hidden.

[treestar]

172. I wouldn't vote to hide it

Yes it was still rape. I hate the way most men claim to have lost their virginity at 16 or younger with some older woman. Like it's just a rite of passage. And you get the feeling they really never lost it until they were over 18 but feel ashamed of that. Screw that. Macho bullshit. There's nothing wrong with waiting until you are 40 if that's when it happens for you. I exaggerate a bit, but 25 or so would be nothing to be ashamed of.

[Yo_Mama]

80. She pled guilty to forcible sodomy.

She pled guilty. She didn't deny using physical force on this student - she said in court she did. That's what the "forcible" means in this charge.

Yes, she needs to go to jail for a long time.

I would say it's an excellent use of taxpayer money.

[treestar]

173. That might explain the longer sentence

than the other cases where there was consensual sex with a minor who can't legally consent. Forcible sodomy - well you can image what she did and by force without his so called consent.

[Logical]

137. Wow, you are one sicko! Nt

[roguevalley]

159. disgusting remark: what harm did she do? she raped him.

Boys need protection too

[awoke_in_2003]

160. You're a real fucking piece of work. nt

[Nay]

183. You are way, way off base here. Many years ago I had a stepson who, at age 15, was

used by a 24-yr-old woman sexually; he worked for his stepfather and she took the kid's paycheck when he got home. She got pregnant and had a child and the abuse continued. I had no say in anything because his bio father had given up rights to them. I DID call the vice cops in the town they were in, when he was 15, and tried to get them to investigate. Nah. Back then, the cops thought he was 'lucky.'

That boy is 40 now and as messed up as one can be, so don't fucking tell me he was bragging about getting raped, you jerk. He was the nicest, sweetest kid before that happened.

[NCTraveler]

218. Your comment is proof of the profound effect it has had on your life and thought process.

I wish you the best. We all deal with rape in our own way. If you are going to take the dismissive route, please keep it more to yourself. It hurts other victims of rape.

[dixiegrrrrl]

224. Nobody Here, eh?

It is illegal, AND immoral, for older adults of either sex to go around having/enticing/forcing sex with non-adults of either sex, in this country.
Especially for adults in positions of recognized authority, like a teacher.

[840high]

83. +10

[NaturalHigh]

5. We needs to lighten up on non-violent drug crime penalties.

Rape of a student - not so much. I can't work up a lot of sympathy for this woman.

[EL34x4]

43. I agree

A decade in prison for having what I assume was consensual sex with a 15-year old boy is ridiculously harsh. And yes, I am a father of two boys. I was also a 15-year old boy at one time.

Also, curious about the "forced sodomy" charge.

Awaiting the "15-year old boys can't consent to sex!!!" replies. Fifteen year old boys have consented to sex for a long, long time.

Anyways, 10 years in prison serves no one well. Not the taxpayers paying for room and board. Not society who has now seen the earning potential of one of their own hobbled. And likely not the victim in this case who now has to live with himself knowing he sent someone to prison for an act he probably enjoyed.

I only read the article at the OP. If details surface that he was forcibly, violently raped against his will, I'll take everything I posted back.

And yes, we need to look at sentencing in this country. Without a doubt, there are offenders who need to be locked up and throw away the key. But the "prison for everyone" attitude needs to be seriously addressed.

[NobodyHere]

44. Agreed

[qazplm]

84. same attitude

with a 15 year old girl and a near 30 years old man?

[mythology]

106. 15 year olds can consent to sex with other 15 year olds. Give some leeway for age

But no they can't consent legally to sex with somebody twice their age who is in a position of authority over them.

Not all rape is "forcible" in the sense you seem to mean. Sometimes the perp gets the victim too drunk to consent, sometimes they use drugs. Sometimes they wait until the victim is asleep. Sometimes they make a threat and the victim doesn't fight back because they are afraid or think that it's their best chance to survive. Sometimes the perp tells the victim that nobody will believe them because of who the perp is.

I'm perfectly fine with this piece of crap spending significant time in prison.

[Chemisse]

143. I agree that it is long for power disproportionate rape of either a boy or a girl. BUT

It doesn't matter which gender is in which position; they should be treated the same by the legal system.

[Recursion]

56. Yeah, we really need to ease up on pedophiles

It's rape. Period. Ten years barely scratches the surface.

[tazkcmo]

69. For rape?

Really? Is it because it was a female doing the raping to a boy? Would you feel differently if the genders were switched? 10 years should be the minimum.

[irisblue]

74. No, rape is rape.

[irisblue]

96. the power inbalance between the 15yr old & the teacher is wrong. period.

Did your hypothetical other 15 yr olds use force or coercion? Then, yes, that is rape. You're right POC do get harsher sentences.

[sub.theory]

99. Have you ever even heard of grooming?

What do you think these rapists do? Of course they carefully groom their victims. They are in a position of trust and authority and they use that for their sick ends. Minors are extremely vulnerable to this tactic, because they are NOT fully emotionally developed.

Do you support creeps that groom underage girls on the Internet or is rape only ok for teachers and coaches?

[sub.theory]

107. No way. Not buying it.

We've agreed as a society that age 18 is sufficiently emotionally developed to be able to freely choose who one has sex with. There is continual development of the human brain into our 20s. So, where do we draw the line? At age 18. You argument about a 40 year old virgin isn't relevant, because they are clearly over 18 and their brain is fully developed. That they choose not the have sex doesn't impact their ability to make that choice. If we want to accept your argument that it's all relative then why not allow sex with adults at age 14? 13? 12? 11? 10? After all, who are we as a society to decide when sufficient emotional maturity has occurred, right?

What on Earth does virginity and prior sexual activity have to do with being groomed and raped? Are you seriously using the slut-shaming tactic to discredit and blame rape victims for their own rape? What on earth does grade improvement make in rape? It's not rape if a student is being manipulated into sex to save their grades? Are you for real?

It's not pollyannish. It's about protecting children. Rape doesn't just happen by accident. It's not some sort of oops. It is a completely deliberate and premeditated crime, one that every adult knows is a very serious offense. You've admitted that there are creeps and they need to be sufficiently punished. Those who groom and rape children are most certainly creeps.

Want to rethink your position?

[Freelancer]

116. I'm right, but I accept that there's no point in arguing with you. Bye bye!

[snooper2]

212. No, doing 10 years for stealing a soda while black at 7-11 is harsh- This POS needs more years

But if it was a man on girl most of the older women who post here would be clapping---

Oh, anybody there?

[ladyVet]

223. Er, no.

But if it was a man on girl most of the older women who post here would be clapping

That's a load of shit.

Male teacher/female or male student: No.

Female teacher/female or male student: Still no.

She didn't get nearly long enough, in my opinion. It seems some folks responding here have mistaken the place for Freeperville.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

3. Harsh sentence. But still:

https://m.

[mercuryblues]

7. Not harsh at all

[Blue_Adept]

19. but not in keeping with other recent cases

"Former Western Heights Public Schools teacher and coach Tyrone Nash, 36, is serving two years in prison for a 2014 conviction of five counts of second-degree rape and five counts of forcible sodomy with a 17-year-old girl. "

[mercuryblues]

109. that is far

too lenient.

[WinkyDink]

8. The problem I have with this sentence is that some similar perps get probation, let alone less time.

Probation as a result of plea-bargaining.

[Chan790]

49. That's true of any crime though.

I know a guy that did 2 years (marked down from 8 years) for murder (as the driver of a getaway car in a fatal bodega robbery) after striking a plea deal to testify against his gunman accomplice (who supposition suggested (and allocution confirmed) went into the store intending to murder both victims in revenge for an unrelated conflict) who got L w/o P on a plea to avoid the needle.

[BlueJazz]

9. Seems harsh to me but of course, I don't know the circumstances. My first few times..

...were with an older lady. I was 16...she, 23. I'd feel mighty awful if she had gone to jail.

[NaturalHigh]

10. I see your point but 16-23...

is different than 15-29 when the 29-year-old woman is his teacher.

[BlueJazz]

11. Yeah...that's true.

[Blue_Adept]

18. The article says she was 25 at the time

"Thompson was a 25-year-old English teacher at Kellyville High School when the crime occurred."

And in contrast:

"Former Western Heights Public Schools teacher and coach Tyrone Nash, 36, is serving two years in prison for a 2014 conviction of five counts of second-degree rape and five counts of forcible sodomy with a 17-year-old girl. "

So yeah, all things equal...

[NaturalHigh]

23. True, Nash got off way too easy.

[Lee-Lee]

14. It's the violation of trust and athority when it's a teacher

Teachers have authority over students entrusted into their care. Society trusts the teachers to be proper caregivers and instructors.

[Quantess]

15. Except that was only statutory rape

But this article called it rape. They didn't go into details, but it sounds like he was an unwilling victim.

[BlueJazz]

16. That's the proverbial horse of a different color.

[Quantess]

21. Could be, but it may not have been a mutual thing...

Maybe he was scared of her and she accosted him. Who knows?

[BlueJazz]

24. I meant that if it was a forced action then that's the Horse of a ...etc.

[yellowcanine]

25. Statutory rape is still rape.

What part of "can't give consent" do people not understand?

A 15 year old cannot consent to sex with someone 10 years older.

Yes apparently there was no actual force (psychological, not so sure) used so that needs to be taken into account. But so does the fact that there were apparently multiple violations.

I agree that 10 years seems a little harsh in comparison to similar crimes. But statutory rape is by definition a violent crime and do we know the potential for offending again? Is this woman sorry for what she did and seeking counseling? Presumably that came up during the sentencing phase.

[Chan790]

51. You do understand there being a factual difference...

between legal consent and situational consent, right?

Situational consent is nothing more than "free will." I can situationally consent to a lot of things that are illegal or which it is not possible for me to legally consent to. (Oddly, in the state of MA, this includes BDSM...but that's an amusing aside at-most)

A 15 year old boy has the free will to f**k their teacher if the opportunity presented itself. That has no impact on their ability to legally-consent...and that's a good thing actually. 15 year olds are capable of making a lot of bad decisions that the law should protect them from making.

[EL34x4]

59. At fifteen,

I knew that murdering someone was wrong. I knew that stealing was wrong. I knew that taking my dad's car (while he was sleeping) and driving it to a keg party was wrong (guilty).

I also knew that my Social Studies teacher (who was fresh out of college at the time) was incredibly hot! I remember three things about her. I forget her name but I recall her saying that Roger Daltrey was the sexiest lead singer ever. I recall her enormous breasts on her 4'11" frame. And I recall picturing her naked many times.

I can assure you, if she ever whispered in my ear, "let's go have sex" I would've absolutely provided her the best 1.5 seconds of her life!

[treestar]

175. But she didn't because she was law abiding

and as stated, your enthusiasm does not matter. She was the older one in position of authority, and it is her legal obligation not to give you that "opportunity." For the very reason of that vulnerability.

[Comrade Grumpy]

52. Statutory rape is by definition a violent crime?

I don't think so, or the "by definition" is one of the definitions that seek to redefine reality.

Statutory rape is consensual sex with someone who, by law, cannot consent. That doesn't mean they don't consent in the real world, it just means they cannot legally consent.

[yellowcanine]

157. Yes, sexual assault is a violent crime. Statutory rape is sexual assault.

It is defined as such in the statute. Hence, "by definition."

[sub.theory]

37. The it's not really "rape rape" argument

Heard that one before.

[Chan790]

53. It's no less disgusting...

when it's used regarding a teenage boy than it is when it's used against women of any age.

No tolerance should be given to such arguments...they're not only wrong but destructive and work to marginalize victims of sex crimes. They are part of the epidemic problem of sexual violence.

[sub.theory]

92. Complete agreement

With you 100%

[EL34x4]

146. You think a guy hiding in the bushes with a knife

Who attacks and rapes the jogger who passed him by is no different than a horny teenage boy getting it on with his teacher?

[uppityperson]

149. Of course they are. The first is the rapist, the second is the raped.

The guy hiding in the bushes is the rapist. The teacher is the rapist.

[treestar]

177. there's a difference, but to the victim

it is hard to say which is scarier - something that happens suddenly and violently or something that manipulates your mental state over time.

[KittyWampus]

125. Well, that's why we distinguish between adults who have the legal capacity to consent

and minors, who do not have legal capacity to consent.

Personal feelings don't have anything to do with it, btw.

[BlueJazz]

153. Of course, what you say is true. From what I've read, males minds are not fully formed until ...

....somewhere the age of 26. Females much earlier.

[treestar]

174. She should still have gone

Found someone her own age. Odd to feel bad for your rapist.

[LuvNewcastle]

13. I'm wondering if the sentence is any more

harsh than if she had been male. I think it would probably be about the same, so I think this sentence is fair.

[Blue_Adept]

17. Other examples cited in the article

"Former Western Heights Public Schools teacher and coach Tyrone Nash, 36, is serving two years in prison for a 2014 conviction of five counts of second-degree rape and five counts of forcible sodomy with a 17-year-old girl. "

[LuvNewcastle]

26. What I meant was, what if she had been

male and had molested a male student? I think the sentence would have been harsh, given all the charges.

[mythology]

215. You can find an example or two of this

But what is the average sentence for fora male teacher raping a student? I legitimately don't know, but the possibly one off example isn't really relevant by itself to prove male teachers get lighter sentences.

[Blue_Adept]

217. That's all well and nice

But the example I cited, which is in the article, was from last year in the same general area. So it's pretty relevant to the conversation at hand. It's not like it's from ten years ago from Timbuktu and used to justify something.

[Starry Messenger]

20. Ex-teacher freed after serving 30 days for child rape

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/26/teacher-student-rape-montana/2876007/

"The ex-teacher was sentenced after violating terms of a deferred prosecution agreement he made after Moralez killed herself in 2010.

The judge said at the sentencing hearing that Moralez seemed "older than her chronological age."

Note: I am all for harsher penalties for child rape. For both genders.

[NaturalHigh]

22. As I recall, the state appealed the sentence and won.

Didn't the guy end up getting ten years?

[WinkyDink]

75. The prosecution cannot appeal any criminal-court decision in the U.S.

http://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/law_related_education_network/how_courts_work/appeals.html

[NaturalHigh]

78. Ex-teacher resentenced to prison.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/26/montana-rape-resentencing/16276429/

[WinkyDink]

211. 1. The accused had already been convicted. 2. The judge made egregious anti-victim remarks. 3. No

double jeopardy in this case (my original point, which I did not clarify).

[PoliticAverse]

205. They appealed the sentence (the defendant plead guilty). n/t

[yellowcanine]

27. 'The judge said... that Moralez seemed "older than her chronological age."'

Judges like that piss me off. What the hell does that mean anyway? She was apparently a troubled teen, probably because of prior abuse, and a teacher who should have been protecting her abused the trust to satisfy his own sexual needs. That should rate a harsher sentence, not a lighter one.

[davidn3600]

145. You keep citing that one case where the judge's sentence was illegal....

And that teacher is back in jail, by the way.

Do you want me to list the female teachers who raped teenage boys and got away with nothing but probation? A simple google search lists dozens.

Don't try to claim there is a consistency in the sentencing of these crimes. If a woman has sex with a teenage boy, she has the public on her side. If a male teacher has sex with a female student, even if it is consensual, people call for the death penalty. The reason you have some harsh sentences like you do in the OP is because there are a few judges out there who realize how sick this really is that society is willing to excuse it, and can see through the double standard.

[Starry Messenger]

147. I refer you back to my note in my last line. Have a nice day.

[Nye Bevan]

30. Lots of times child rape is treated as a bit of a joke when the rapist is female.

This sentence seems more in line with cases where the child rapist is a man.

[Recursion]

65. Ain't that the truth (nt)

[sub.theory]

34. Harsh?!

That's not a harsh sentence at all. He deserves every second of it and more. Absolutely unforgivable what he did. Personally, I want to see life sentences for all sex offenders. Clear out all of the nonviolent drug offenders in our prison system. There will be more than enough room to set these sickos up for life.

[NaturalHigh]

38. She - the teacher is a woman.

[sub.theory]

39. Thanks

My mistake. She.

Changes nothing about how well deserved her sentence is.

[NaturalHigh]

41. Agreed.

[Skidmore]

35. Some of the responses on this

thread are appalling.

[kcjohn1]

36. Ridicolous

This is what is wrong with criminal system. What purpose will be served by putting this woman for 10 years? Harsh sentences do not act as deterrent. The whole system is out of whack and medieval in its thirst for blood.

The purpose of justice system should be to protect the public. I do not think this person poses risk to general public to put away for this long. Take away her license, prevent her from position of over children, 1 year jail sentence and probation period would have been the right thing

[valerief]

170. Congratulations! You've won yourself a Forever Ignore! nt

[Iggo]

45. Maybe don't fuck children then, Asswipe?

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. As a society, we've gone from ignoring it...

... to punishing it harshly, but only when the teacher is a man, to punishing it severely in both cases.

I knew a kid who married his high school teacher the day after he graduated in 1977. She continued to teach.
I knew a male teacher who committed suicide about a month after allegations of an inappropriate relationship with an 18 year old student.

I think that 10 years is too much, regardless of the genders. Teens aren't children - they generally know what they want, and although the grownups around them should not enable that behavior, the flesh is occasionally weak.

Grownups with "weak flesh" shouldn't be allowed to be teachers, but I'm unconvinced that 10 years in jail and permanent place on a sex offender registry is anything other than a societal overcorrection.

[EL34x4]

54. This whole notion that teens are children

Is a modern construct.

For cryin' out loud, Jack Daniel was 16 when he opened his distillery. There were 14-year olds on Omaha Beach.

Fifteen year old boys want to have sex and all the laws in the world aren't going to negate this biological drive.

[lumberjack_jeff]

57. So do girls, but that's really immaterial.

Grownups decide what juveniles are allowed to do, and that includes denying them access to sex with you.

My belief that the law is appropriate, coexists with my belief that it's punished inconsistently and increasingly too harshly.

[Android3.14]

105. "Grownups decide what juveniles are allowed to do"

As a parent of two teenagers, I can say emphatically that this is not so.

[lumberjack_jeff]

115. The key word is "allowed"

My 2 now grown kids also did stuff that they did not have permission to do. That's part of growing up. They may have drank and smoked pot, but they didn't do it with me or with my acquiescence.

Having sex with a kid violates grownup responsibility.

[NaturalHigh]

141. "Having sex with a kid violates grownup responsibility."

We have a winner! Why is this so damned hard for some to understand?

[lostnfound]

162. Able to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same. Time, are we?

Be careful now, that has surely been made illegal...
"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function."

I agree, by the way, with all you've said in this thread.

Yes, there's a grownup responsibility, but yes, there's also overcorrection going on.

[joshcryer]

167. OMFG, two different but consistent views?

What is the world coming to?!?

[Yo_Mama]

82. Fine, then let them have sex with other teens. Don't let the adults go after them.

Much less teachers.

It's a worse crime if a teacher or cop does it, because it's abuse of authority.

Yes, the teens want to have sex. They are easily exploited by older people who have issues of whatever sort. That doesn't mean it should be legal for the adults to exploit them.

[NaturalHigh]

88. "That doesn't mean it should be legal for the adults to exploit them."

That's really the point of all this, isn't it? Kids can be stupid; adults are supposed to make the right decisions in their regard.

[Yo_Mama]

91. Worse yet, proper development basically requires that kids make these stupid decisions

It is, therefore, crucial that adults not get to exploit and use these vulnerabilities. When the kids do it with others of their own ages, it's a different dynamic.

I am more furious and revolted than I could possibly express at what has been written and supported and passed over on this board today.

Fight the good fight, I have to get out of this.

[sub.theory]

90. Would you still feel that way?

If it was your daughter and she agreed to meet some creepy guy from the internet who had been grooming her?

[EL34x4]

101. No, I wouldn't feel that way

I believe that boys and girls are different.

Oops, I just outed myself as a conservative.

Better tombstone me.

[sub.theory]

102. You may not be a conservative

But you apparently are a hypocrite and rape apologist. Glad we cleared that up.

Edit: I think it also speaks volumes about how you see woman and girls that their sexual purity and virginity is paramount to boys.

[pintobean]

104. You're absolutely right, you need to be tombstoned.

And, while we're at it, "tombstoned" went out three and a half years ago. What you mean is; we'd better PPR you.

[EL34x4]

113. Then go for it.

PRR my ass for thinking that a 25-year old teacher who fucked a 15-year old shouldn't spend a decade in prison.

[sub.theory]

118. We get it

You love rape. You can stop now.

[EL34x4]

120. Oh, good grief.

You have a case of the vapors. Go find some smelling salts.

[pintobean]

129. Not my call

but I would if I could. In a heartbeat.

[EL34x4]

131. Sure you can.

Flag my post, ask for it to be deleted and then request that my banning.

[NaturalHigh]

108. Nobody denies that boys and girls are different.

It's equally wrong to abuse either, though.

[EL34x4]

110. So, back to the OP?

You think she needs a decade in prison to "correct" her ways?

[NaturalHigh]

112. I frankly don't find it unreasonable.

Part of the reason for prison is punishment and deterrence. Will it fix her problems? I don't know.

[EL34x4]

114. Does spending a decade in prison for a non-violent crime ever fix the problem?

I can say without question, if this were one of my boys, and I have two of them, I would ask for leniency.

On top of that, I would not cooperate whatsoever with the prosecution of this case.

[NaturalHigh]

117. It depends on your definition of violence.

Again, if this were a 15-year-old girl and a 25-year-old male teacher, you would likely feel differently and understand that there is still an element of coercion involved.

[EL34x4]

119. I'm not the father of daughters.

I am, however, 13 years older than my wife. She was 23 when we married, I was 36.

If my hypothetical 15-year old daughter was banging a 25-year old teacher, I'm not quite sure I would be howling in outrage. I would likely look in the mirror at my parental failings and then resign myself to the fact that at least he has a job and isn't some neck-tatted loser.

[NaturalHigh]

121. Fortunately the law isn't quite so clueless.

[EL34x4]

122. Fair enough.

So you think this young woman deserves a decade in prison?

[NaturalHigh]

123. Yes.

[EL34x4]

126. Seriously?

You honestly believe that a then 25-year old teacher belongs in prison for a decade for having consensual sex with a 15-year old?

And yet you have a tagline about ending the drug war? There's a lot of people who agree with you. I doubt they post on DU.

[NaturalHigh]

128. Seriously...

And what does a statutory rape case have to do with the drug war?

[EL34x4]

130. I asked you a simple question

Does this woman belong in prison for a decade?

If you answer "yes" then don't pretend to be aggravated over the "lock 'em up and throw away the key" mentality that governs this nation's judicial system, a system that imprisons more people on earth even after counting for net population.

[NaturalHigh]

133. I can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.

I can think the drug war is absolute bullshit and maintain that rapists belong in prison.

[EL34x4]

135. OK, NaturalHigh

You believe she belongs in prison for 10 years.

I assume then you'll vote for "tough on crime" candidates who agree with you.

I doubt many of them will have a (D) after their name. Are you sure you're at the right forum?

[NaturalHigh]

139. "Are you sure you're at the right forum?"

Well, to be fair, I've been here a lot longer than you.

[EL34x4]

140. Who cares?

It wasn't like I was born the day I signed up to DU.

I participate in enough forums to know that the "I was here longer than you!" post is the last gasp of a losing argument.

[NaturalHigh]

142. Fair enough. No point in any further discussion.

We are obviously not going to agree as we are both firm in our beliefs.

[pintobean]

154. How many times in these forums?

[a la izquierda]

185. You are positively revolting.

That is all.

[uppityperson]

150. A boy can't be raped but a girl can? Seriously?

[erpowers]

156. Girls Like and Want Sex Too

Girls like and want to have sex just like boys. The real difference is that if guys have sex with more than one woman they are cheered. If girls have sex with more than one guy they are called sluts. A female can even be called a slut if she has sex with one guy before she is married.

From a young age females are told either to not have sex until they are married, or to not have sex with multiple guys before marriage. Female are told that the consequences of having sex before marriage, or having sex with too many men is that they will not be able to get married because no one will want to marry them. For the most part guys are not told those things. Many guys are encouraged to go out and "sow their wild oats".

[treestar]

178. Maybe not as liberals can be sexists

Neither boys or girls should have sex with adults, because the adults should not do it, ask for it, manipulate for it etc. That applies equally to both sexes and the laws must be equal per the 14th amendment.

[treestar]

176. That was wrong

and that's why there are now child labor laws and it's a violation of international law to use child soldiers. It's am improvement in society that adults cannot take advantage of teenagers any more.

[joshcryer]

166. I think I agree with this the most.

I think we need some sort of maturity metric in place. I know it's been said before and by no means can I say how it'd work, but there are different maturity levels in reality. I don't know much about this case so I can't argue the maturity level of the student. But surely excusing behavior over hormones is ludicrous.

Although I would say the coercion element in a teacher-student relationship (or any sort of authority figure situation such as boss-employee) should remain something to consider.

[Recursion]

55. 10 years for child rape is indeed shocking

But not because of its alleged "severity".

[EL34x4]

127. A 15-year old male isn't a child (EOM)

[pintobean]

58. It's always interesting to see who supports

pedophilia. It's embarrassing to see it on DU. Your thread is very enlightening, NaturalHigh.

[TM99]

66. Technically this is not pedophilia.

This is ephebophilia which is sexual attraction to an adolescent generally between the ages of 15 and 19. This makes a difference given the woman was only 25. I think the sentencing was too harsh unless there is a history of this type of ongoing behavior.

[EL34x4]

138. You're right.

Pedophilia is the sexual attraction to children. Prior to the 1920s, there was no such thing as adolescence. You were a boy until your first pube sprouted, and then you were a man.

I'm getting beaten up on this thread pretty hard. For the record, what this teacher did was wrong. I'll capitalize it: WHAT THIS TEACHER DID WAS WRONG.

Should she go to prison for a decade?

As a father of sons, children, if it were my son involve in this mess, I'd ask for her teaching certificate to be rescinded. That's it. Let her go earn a living somewhere else.

I don't care what anyone else says, a decade behind bars is ridiculous. I would not want my son a part of that.

[treestar]

179. Ephebophilia is against the law too

and there is no reason it should not be punished less harshly.

[TM99]

182. I correct the person who said it was pedophilia

when it is not.

Yes, it is against the law, and I still disagree that it was an overly harsh sentence comparatively speaking.

[madville]

61. Probably wouldn't have been as long a sentence

If he had been 16 instead of 15 since 16 is the legal age of consent in Oklahoma. It still would have been illegal because of the teacher-student relationship but she probably would have just gotten probation or a couple of years had he been a few months older at the time.

[NaturalHigh]

63. That's quite possible.

[NaturalHigh]

72. Do you have kids?

[LittleBlue]

76. Let me guess

If I have kids and hold this opinion, I'm an awful parent.

If I don't, then I can't give an opinion until I have kids.

[NaturalHigh]

79. Okay.

That was kind of a hostile reply.

[LittleBlue]

86. Sorry

I'll edit

[Yo_Mama]

85. These things are not victimless crimes. How can you take this position?

You and the others taking this stance have upset me to the point at which I must walk away for a bit.

I cannot write what I want to write, but consider this - when teens, who are very suggestible, extremely horny and naturally primed to fall in love at that stage get exploited by adults this way, it changes their lives in a permanent fashion. It changes their emotional development, their social development, and much else. Adults do not have the right to use these adolescents for their own pleasure. These are NOT equal relationships.

I am really, really revolted by your position on this.

[LittleBlue]

94. It is so subjective

In one state the law is 16. In others, 17 or 18.

Either someone is a victim or not. On one side of a state line, the law could be 18. On the other, it could be 16. Yet moving 1 mile doesn't make someone any more of a victim, even though the law sees it that way.

Which is why I call it a victimless crime. There is no logic used to determine whether someone is a victim other than their age. And each state (and country ) is different.

[Recursion]

87. "Victimless"???

WTF? Did you read the article?

[Recursion]

89. I was 9 when my teacher told me she loved me, and that I was a real man

And that I was the only one that could make her happy, and that she would stay with me and take care of me forever.

I was 9.

This is not "victimless". This is depriving someone of his childhood. This isn't funny. This isn't a joke.

[sub.theory]

97. Oh really?

Seducing, grooming, and then raping a minor is a victimless crime? So we should totally allow grown men to chat with on the Internet and groom underage girls to then manipulate them to get naked for them to jack off to and/or pressure to meet up for sex? You'd be totally in support of your daughter having this happen to her? You'd drive her to the guy's house? It being a harmless, victimless crime after all?

[Humanist_Activist]

98. Wow, just fucking wow, what the fuck is wrong with you? n/t

[JTFrog]

124. What a disgusting reply. Surely not surprising coming from you, but all the same disgusting.

How the hell they still let you post here is beyond me.

And you really told another poster (extra disgusting, given the thread you are posting in): "Go play with the kiddies, not interested in your ad hominem games." It's all great that you edited, but the fact that you posted it to begin with should show everyone here what you are made of.

[BainsBane]

81. Should have thought about that before she raped her student.

[MsTanja]

111. Too many posts

attempt to explain this away as "he was probably already having sex" and "how can this damage a 15 year old boy" and "you have to be aroused to have sex".

And they all make we want to puke.

As others here have noted, rape is rape. Period. It does not need to be violent to be rape. The power balance has also been mentioned, but for those of you who don't understand it, a person in a position of power (teacher) uses that power and authority to convince/coerce/instigate sexual activity with the subordinate (student).

The reasons she wanted to have sex with him don't matter. The adult is the one responsible for never crossing that line with a child -- no matter what. And yes, sometimes the child feels special and possibly even brags about it, but this child does not have the full capacity to refuse -- and that translates to the inability to consent. And where there is no consent or an inability to consent there is rape. Plain and simple.

People need to let go of the idea that the only kind of rape is a stranger in a dark alley holding a knife to a woman's throat.

ANY kind of sex that does not involve full, informed, willing, enthusiastic, free from power play and manipulated consent IS rape. And don't even bring up the "what if they're both drunk" scenario. Different topic - also apologist to rapists.

Those that make excuses or call for less harsh punishment perpetuate the stereotype that continues to harm children to this day.

[mercuryblues]

134. exactly

[gollygee]

136. Agree

Kids can not consent to sex with their teachers. Period.

[reorg]

169. what you say may all be true for 8-year-olds

but in this case?

the 28-year-old English teacher was arrested on suspicion of statutory rape and contributing to the delinquency of a minor after police found her and the student, a 15-year-old boy, in a Best Western hotel room. The boy was on summer break visiting his mother when he hopped the fence of a church parking lot, where Sexton waited in her sport utility vehicle.

http://newsok.com/article/5243481

The 'child' hopping the fence was nearly 6 feet tall, 'very mature' and 'very flirty' when HE started this relationship, which is apparently not in dispute. When the first rumors started, she resigned as a teacher. But she was still hounded by the police, apparently prompted and fed with allegations by her ex who most likely is the actual POS in the entire affair.

Ancient and rigid laws are the problem here, as well as the (probably just as ancient and rigid) people defending them with little sense of reality and proportion.

One of the charges in this particular case is "forcible sodomy", "the detestable and abominable crime against nature".

What? How on earth did she commit a 'detestable and abominable crime against nature' with the fifteen-year-old teen? What do they even mean - given this is Oklahoma - is he black?



I doubt that any of this would have become a legal case in Europe.

[treestar]

180. Describing him as flirting and hopping over the fence

is analogous to blaming people for getting raped for being out late at night, etc. It does not matter that he was enthusiastic. She could have said no and that's her duty as an adult.

[reorg]

188. no, it appears to be factual

and mentioning the specifics can only help unterstand what actually happened instead of relying on generalities and irrelevant talking points like you do. This woman did not 'rape' anybody.

This thread is about an overly harsh sentence for something that elsewhere isn't even a crime. Excessive and cruel punishment is the problem and it turns my stomach to see so many posters here arguing in favor of it.

[treestar]

190. She did commit rape

The law says so, no matter how enthusiastic he may appear to be.

Any woman in her 20s can get laid by an adult male - it's sick to choose an underage guy, even if he is "enthusiastic" it's not the right thing to do.

[reorg]

192. No, that's one of your misleading talking points

She committed 'second-degree rape' according to the Oklahoma Statute:

It seems a little unfair that a young man who has a relationship with a girl just a little younger than the legal age of consent is branded a high-risk sex offender in the same classification as a violent sexual predator or child rapist. However, with the state of Oklahoma’s offense-based classification system, this is exactly what happens to hundreds of Oklahoma men and women each year.

Rape is legally defined as nonconsensual sexual intercourse. In Oklahoma, the offense is divided into two classifications: first degree rape and second degree rape.

First degree rape is typically occurs when sex is forced despite a victim’s protests or coerced when a victim is rendered incapable of denying consent. Second degree rape, on the other hand, often occurs when the victim actually consents to the act, but his or her consent is legally invalid because of age, custodial status, or other statutory designation.

Because second degree rape meets the legal definition of rape as defined by statute, but not the common definition of rape which denotes violence and force, it is frequently described as “statutory rape.”

http://www.ok-criminal-defense.com/second-degree-rape

[treestar]

193. Second degree rape is rape

Not a talking point. Many states have a voluntary social companion rule. If they are less than 4 years apart in age. Allows for a 17 year old and 20 year old. that helps with this supposed "injustice".

If you're an adult stick with adults. It can't be that hard.

[NaturalHigh]

194. "If you're an adult stick with adults. It can't be that hard."

Surely it's not as complicated as some seem determined to make it.

[reorg]

200. It's not about being 'complicated'

- it's about not being too simple-minded. Surely, every reasonable person can understand that people sometimes walk on different paths.

[NaturalHigh]

201. It's absolutely reasonable to assume that we walk different paths, reorg.

[snooper2]

213. you ever notice you are always on the wrong side of every issue?

Or do you do that for a reason?

[reorg]

214. funny

I was wondering the same about you

[LanternWaste]

219. People walk different paths... sometimes those paths are in direct conflict with established law

very reasonable person can understand that people sometimes walk on different paths.

People walk different paths... and surely the reasonable mind realizes that sometimes those paths are in direct conflict with established law, regardless of whether we rationalize the established law as being simple minded in its consistency.

[reorg]

221. Let's posit you're a boy of eighteen years, travelling

with your girlfriend, who is sixteen, in a camper from Alaska to the gulf of Mexico.

If we further assume that you know your girlfriend in the biblical sense, then you should be very careful indeed to choose your path.

If you are very careful, you may reach your goal and stay perfectly legal. One minor deviation, though, somewhere along the way, and you suddenly have become a 'rapist'. That's what you call 'consistency':


[font color="#7FFFD4"]13[/font] | [font color="#00CED1"]14[/font] | [font color="#1E90FF"]15[/font] | [font color="#0000CD"]16[/font] | [font color="#808000"]17[/font] | [font color="#32CD32"]18[/font] |

Likewise, an adult woman in Europe could easily navigate her way from the Baltic Sea to Sicily in the company of her fourteen-year-old loverboy and stay out of legal trouble. But take one wrong turn to the right or to the left and she may be considered a 'child molester':



[font color="#7FFFD4"]13[/font] | [font color="#00CED1"]14[/font] | [font color="#1E90FF"]15[/font] | [font color="#0000CD"]16[/font] | [font color="#808000"]17[/font] | [font color="#32CD32"]18[/font] |

[reorg]

195. not the common definition

but that doesn't stop certain posters to repeat their talking points.

What happened in this case would have been perfectly legal in Germany. Not 'rape' nor any other of the countless 'offences' Americans are dreaming up, 'sodomy'? WTF.

[NaturalHigh]

196. Where is it not a crime...

for a 25-year-old teacher to have sex with a 15-year-old student?

[reorg]

199. look up the age-of-consent laws

In the case mentioned here, the teacher had quit her job (April) before she shared a hotel room and had sex with the 15-year-old juvenile. There may or may not have been a single instance where the young man approached her in a class room and they 'had sex', fully clothed and while standing up (I kind of doubt that), but the actual relationship / prosecuted acts happened later.

In Germany for instance, where the age of consent is 14, it is not at all illegal for any adult to have a consensual sexual relationship with a 15-year-old teenager wherever they please. And angry jealous husbands have to find other means to get back at their unsatisfied spouses.

(Due to a relatively recent change in law, if the teenager is under 16 and a student of yours, you can be prosecuted - in theory at least, but such cases are extremely rare. Not to mention that first-time offenders in Germany always get probation.)

[davidn3600]

144. Switch the genders and people here wouldn't think the punishment is enough

The double standard involving these kind of cases is completely appalling.

[LisaL]

151. I was just thinking the exact same thing.

If it was a male having sex with 15 year old female student, we wouldn't see these type of posts saying he got too much time and he didn't force anybody.

[NaturalHigh]

163. Undoubtedly true.

[lumberjack_jeff]

152. I think there are a couple of points that should be made here

1) there's a lot of territory between "It's a victimless crime! He's probably bragging about it!" and "You think a life sentence is too strict?? You pedophile apologist!!!" I'm not convinced that the punishment is justified by the crime, but there's a very real victim here, every bit as real as if the victim was a girl.

2) boys and girls are different, and some use that as a justification for differential legal treatment. If that's true, then arguably the delay in maturity of boys relative to girls argues for harsher sentences for people who exploit boys. Further, like Vili Fullau, the harm caused by the crime doesn't go away, ever, not even after the child Ms Letourneau chose to give birth to becomes an adult.

The opposite argument either essentially requires that we ignore everything we know about child development, and say that boys are de-facto adults at age 15 or 16. Or, on the other hand, we may simply admit that we just don't care as much about boys' wellbeing and consider victimization and exploitation they experience such as STD's and child support, as important learning opportunities.

[countryjake]

158. "Children"...Letourneau's rape of Vili Fualaau produced two baby girls...

first child born before the trial was even over, then just as soon as she'd served her three-month sentence in county jail, she was caught again with Vili in her car (and subsequently ended up pregnant a second time).

Finally sent to prison for violating the terms of her probation, which is where the second child was born (ultimately, placing the burden of supporting and raising those two baby girls on a 13 year old boy and his family).

This thread made me sick reading it...

Rape is a crime of violence, period.

[reorg]

202. Were you just talking about this beautiful couple?

Family time ... Letourneau and Fualaau and their daughters Audrey and Georgia during a visit to New York
Happy together ... The couple have been together nearly 20 years.



http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/teacher-mary-kay-letourneau-discusses-happy-marriage-to-student-she-was-jailed-for-raping/story-fnet09y4-1227296315063

[countryjake]

203. Nothing wrong with a 34 yr old having sex with a 12 yr old?

I sincerely hope that you are not being serious.

I've no interest in continuing any discussion on the merits of what you've termed a "beautiful couple".

[reorg]

204. I understood your post as being concerned

with the possibly tragic fate of their daughters:





http://abcnews.go.com/US/mary-kay-letourneau-fualaau-student-lovers-now-teenage/story?id=30174612

[lumberjack_jeff]

207. They look to be about 13.

Will they one day make "beautiful couples" mated to their elementary school teachers?

I don't mean to be coy. I consider this conversation beyond sick.

[lumberjack_jeff]

206. "Beautiful couple"? The person on the right is a rapist, and the person on the left is the victim.

[reorg]

220. beautiful as in pretty and happy

at least that's what they appear to be in these photos, don't they?

I know nothing about this couple and this case except what you can read on the Web about it.

Exceptionally beautiful woman*, which the boy very early recognized. Like with the case cited in the OP, it was apparently the male juvenile who first took the initative to change the relationship into a sexual affair. Also, in both cases the police was informed by parties not connected to the 'victim', but to the spurned husband.

There may indeed be cases where a 'rapist' marries his 'victim' as soon as he comes out of prison in order to raise the daughters together which were conceived during the 'rape' incidents, although I haven't heard of them.

Slightly different is the rather old story about a women raped in her sleep who tries and finds the man in order for him to provide care and become the father of the child. "Die Marquise von O..." in the novella by Heinrich von Kleist (adapted as a film by Eric Rohmer) is a well-known example.


*Both her parents were apparently German-Americans, ultra-conservatives if not crypto-fascists in Orange, California. Interesting side note: she has two brothers who were Republican operatives / Bush advisors with influential positions in government: Joseph Schmitz and John P. Schmitz

[treestar]

181. boys and girls are talked to differently about it

boys are encouraged to think it is macho and masculine to have sex as early as possible, so that's where the enthusiasm (alleged) comes from. Boys might be afraid to say they aren't ready for that and don't want to do it. Girls are taught it is wrong to do it too much the other way, so they guard themselves much better. Boys would if they were taught properly and society did away with this stupid machismo bullshit. Boys should be able to admit to not being ready for it.

So many men allege they lost their virginity as minors when it may not be true. They think that's what they have to say to preserve their masculinity. I've never heard a man admit he lost his virginity at any age over 16. Yet it must be true for many. They feel they have to lie.

Hell at this point girls feel bad if they are virgins and are made fun of for it too.

[lumberjack_jeff]

208. I'm in a fairly good position to know what boys think, having the advantage of having been one.

I was 18 and she was 15. We are now 53 and 50 and have three kids.

It's fairly uncontroversial that males younger than 25 generally have a stronger sex drive than females of the same age.

... but that's irrelevant, because the adults who might be parties to these liaisons are presumed to have equal capacity for judgment and self-control regardless of gender.

[treestar]

209. Well I thought I explained why

but thanks for being the first person to admit it was over 16. Of course, at her age, you should not have done it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

216. Now that I think about it, I was 17. We are 27 months apart in age.

10th and 12th grade.

Shouldn't have? Probably. Teens aren't equipped with a full complement of wits. Ourselves included.

My three best friends lost their virginity later than me, so I guess we travel in different circles.

My point was that it doesn't matter at all how the psychology of victims are dissimilar. It is the offenders who are culpable and responsible; men, women gay or straight.

[JanMichael]

155. Did she change his grades or present a favoritism due to the relationship?

That would be the most egregious of offenses in my opinion.

It was definitely wrong but the sentence is insane. The inconsistency in these cases in terms of punishment are absurd.

[davidpdx]

161. I know the rules limit the OP to 4 paragraphs, but I'll add a few more of interest

Caswell pleaded guilty June 1 to three counts of second-degree rape, two counts of enticing a child and one count of forcible sodomy. Because of statutory minimums, Caswell will not become eligible for release for at least 8.5 years.

snip

“I was in a very unhappy marriage and I received little to no attention from my husband. While working at Hollis Public Schools, I started receiving attention from a student. I ... reacted poorly and irresponsibly,” she is quoted as saying. She is now divorced.

She also told the investigator she would like to teach first or second grade if allowed back in the classroom.

I think it is important that equal sentencing occurs no matter whether the victim is male or female. The Letourneau case certainly made it appear that she was given leniency and then proceeded to take advantage of that.

While the first line says 10 years, the sentence is 15 years with 5 years suspended and she will be released in 8.5 years if she stays out of trouble.

What I find very troubling is the last two paragraphs. First that she blames her marriage for her behavior and second that she states she wants to teach again. It shows that she is very much in denial of what she did.

[NaturalHigh]

165. Yes. Anyone in that level of denial about their crimes is a narcissist.

[nationalize the fed]

168. She didn't force him to kiss her

and follow her around her classroom.

Enough with the police state and zero compassion

[Orrex]

189. Bullshit. Women who commit statutory rape get cushy tv interviews.

Men who commit statutory rape get perp-walked on To Catch a Predator.

Our society has decided that statutory rape is an intolerable abomination. If the victim is a girl.

[treestar]

210. No, since this woman is going to jail

the law recognizes it, at least. It's the people claiming he was "lucky" who are the hold-backs on this form of equality.

[Orrex]

222. The law, yes, but society treats women differently

Certainly she wasn't tackled to the ground by a SWAT team while Chris Hansen shoved a camera in her face.

It's the people claiming he was "lucky" who are the hold-backs on this form of equality.

That's very true, and the media are especially culpable in this regard IMO.

[NaturalHigh]

191. I'm not willing to sit through an hour of Dr. Phil...

just to see what could possibly motivate you to make such a ridiculous statement.

[Crunchy Frog]

186. I can't manage to muster up much sympathy over this.

Basically. Don't have sex with underage students.

[NaturalHigh]

187. That's my opinion on the whole thing.

[sendero]

197. Our "justice" system is plagued by a....

... lack of consistency that is troubling. That said, I don't see this sentence as being out of line. The cherry-picked examples of "similar" cases notwithstanding, I'll bet you with a bit if research I can find some folks who got more than 10 years for a similar crime.

Bottom line, don't rape youngsters and you won't go to jail for doing that.

[NaturalHigh]

198. "Bottom line, don't rape youngsters and you won't go to jail for doing that."

It's not rocket science.