I have to ask.

[TNNurse]

I do not think that a college education is the goal for everyone. Some jobs or goals require it. If my dream was to be a hairdresser or a car mechanic (and we need those people), I would not want to spend my time and money in college.

I did go to college twice. I have a BA in Sociology and a BSN (that is nursing).

I had a nurse manager tell me years ago that getting her BSN (she had been a nurse for years from a perfectly good diploma program) taught her how to THINK.

So, I want to know the education level of all these candidates. I believe President of the United States is one of those jobs that requires at least a bachelor's degree. I also think a basic civics test is a good idea.

[marble falls]

1. That's a very low bar. Even for the House.

[TNNurse]

2. What is Trump's education? How about Walker?

Many incompetents have snuck under that bar.

[MADem]

31. I think Trump went to business school. Walker didn't graduate from college.

Here's all the candidates' education and other bona fides (this was put together before Trump jumped in):

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/your-guide-to-the-2016-presidential-candidates/article/2563668

OMG--Trump went to FORDHAM! Good grief, that's like Bush going to YALE!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump

Idiots like that don't do formal education any favors!!

[pnwmom]

81. Trump graduated from college with a business major. Walker didn't graduate.

[Lurks Often]

3. Requiring a Bachelor's degree (or it's equivalent) would be viewed as insulting to the majority of

people who don't have such a degree, which includes probably a very large percentage of the union manufacturing jobs that make up one of the bases of the Democratic Party. Do you really want to tell that many Democrats that you don't think they are sufficiently educated to be President?

Besides, unless you can get the Constitution amended, the minimum standards to be President are quite clear.



*And yes, I have a BA. Mostly it gave me another 4 years to grow up and the ability to say "Yes I have a college diploma" when I apply for jobs.

[TNNurse]

4. Yes, I do want to say that.

The job is damn important and most citizens are not qualified. I am certainly not. I do not have the patience and tolerance. It is not just education but it does seem to be a part of it.

Many candidates do not have the knowledge, patience, diplomacy and stamina to be President.

I am not one of those people who thinks that anyone can grow up to be President. The best example of my point is GWB.

[djean111]

5. GWB is the only president to have an MBA. I don't think a degree can actually teach you how

to think.

[truebluegreen]

39. Well, I might argue that a liberal arts degree,

or a science degree, would, but anything that focuses on the so-called science of economics would not. Q.E.D.

[Lurks Often]

6. How very insulting and condescending of you

Fortunately for the Democratic Party and the rest of the country you are in no position to make your beliefs reality.

Washington and Lincoln did not have college degrees either and they are widely considered to be the best US Presidents in history.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2015/02/12/which-u-s-presidents-didnt-earn-a-college-degree-two-of-them-are-on-mount-rushmore/

[truebluegreen]

40. And this is not, somehow, a different world than that of 1790 or 1860?

Um, OK.

[Lurks Often]

47. So you think only the "right" people should be able to run for President?

So who gets to decide who the "right" people are?

[truebluegreen]

53. That was quite a leap, followed by a silly question.

I don't accept your premise, either one: a) lacking a college degree 150-200+ years ago is the same as lacking one today; or b) only a college degree can prepare someone for the presidency. Also, the idea that someone should get to decide? Blech.

Although if anyone were to ask me, I'd say MBAs should be permanently barred* and we need a much better mix, and a broader focus, than a bunch of lawyers. I've seen way too people go into law school thinking about "right" and "justice" and come out thinking about "legal" and "illegal".

But of course, nobody has asked me.


*Economics is a tool imo and should not be a determinant of policy.

[Lurks Often]

58. Not as much of a leap as most might like

A debate about exactly WHO should be allowed to run for political office is one of the first steps toward living in a country none of us are going to like.

As for a) Of course it's not the same, although the counter argument is that many of the Presidents who followed Washington did have a college diploma. Truman was the last President not to be a college graduate.

We agree on b), (it was the OP's premise, not mine) and on the idea that a someone should be allowed to determine who can run for office

We also agree there are too many lawyers involved and I'll add that I'll agree with the founding fathers that Congress was never supposed to be a career.

And no, 99% of the political class doesn't ask or care about our opinions on things

[underthematrix]

65. Hmmm your comment makes me feel like I stepped into

foxnews message board. Your comment only makes sense if you are uneducated, unread and lack critical thinking skills. Today, we don't make high school graduates presidents because they need more knowledge - philosophy, history, literature, and STEM.

[Lurks Often]

84. Thanks for the insults, it's a sign you are are unable to discuss things

By your standards Washington, Lincoln & Truman should not have been President.

If you truly believe the quality & quantity of a degree matters, then the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the military heads of the Army, Navy, Marine Corps and the Air Force far more qualified to be President then most if, not all of the current candidates of both parties.

Gen Dempsey, Chairman of the Joint Chief: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Dempsey#Education
1974 Bachelor of Science degree, U.S. Military Academy, West Point, New York
1984 Master of Arts degree in English, Duke University, Durham, North Carolina
1988 Master of Military Art and Science degree, United States Army Command and General Staff College
1995 Master of Science degree in national security and strategic studies, National War College

Gen Joseph Dunford, Commandant of the USMC
BA? Saint Michael's College in June 1977; United States Army War College & Amphibious Warfare School. MA in Government from Georgetown University and a MA in International Relations from the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University.

Gen Mark Milley, Chief of Staff US Army: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_A._Milley
BA in political science from Princeton University, a MA in international relations from Columbia University, and another MAs in national security and security studies from the U.S. Naval War College

Gen Mark Welsh, Chief of Staff USAF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Welsh#Education
1972 Wentworth Military Academy and College, Lexington, Missouri
1976 Bachelor of Science degree, U.S. Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs, Colorado
1986 Air Command and Staff College, by correspondence
1987 Master of Science degree in computer resource management, Webster University
1988 Army Command and General Staff College, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas
1990 Air War College, by correspondence
1993 National War College, Fort Lesley J. McNair, Washington, D.C.
1995 Fellow, Seminar XXI, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge
1998 Fellow, National Security Studies Program, Syracuse University, Syracuse, New York and Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Maryland
1999 Fellow, Ukrainian Security Studies, John F. Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
2002 The General Manager Program, Harvard Business School, Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
2009 Fellow, Pinnacle Course, National Defense University, Fort Lesley J. McNair, Washington, D.C.
2009 Leadership at the Peak, Center for Creative Leadership, Colorado Springs, Colorado

and the "least" educated member of the Joint Chiefs is
Admiral Jonathan Greenert, CNO US Navy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Greenert
BS in Ocean Engineering from the USNA, plus the US Navy's school for Nuclear power for submarine service.

[underthematrix]

95. As a registered voter who actually votes, these are

my standards. Just in case you didn't know, you are entitled to formulate and use your own standards when determining who you think is the most qualified candidate.

[Ms. Yertle]

12. You say a candidate should have a bachelor's degree because

they need the knowledge, patience, diplomacy, and stamina. NONE of which is conferred by a bachelor's degree.

You say you have a bachelor's, and yet you also say that you don't have the patience and tolerance that (in your opinion) would make you qualified to be president.

Emotional intelligence is much, much more important to the presidency than a college degree. For a candidate, I would rather see a list of accomplishments than a college degree any day.

[truedelphi]

57. Neither Steve Jobs or Steve Wozniak had college degrees,

yet they changed the entire world of computers.

After he made a fortune at Apple, Wozniak went on to get a degree (In teaching, If I remember correctly.)

But clearly many people think perfectly well without the mostly requisite piece of paper.

[treestar]

8. One sign of being not educated

includes resentment of people who are.

I have an advanced degree. Yet I can take the fact that there are many people smarter than I am without resenting them for it. It seems the more educated one is the more realistic and mature one is too.

Of course those people should face the fact they are not qualified to be President. I'm not and I have degrees!

[Lurks Often]

11. And why does education HAVE to come from getting a diploma?

For example does getting a BA in Art History or Physical Education somehow make one smarter and better educated then a person doesn't have a degree?

Many of us have interests/hobbies in which we have invested a great deal of time and/or money learning about that interest to the degree that if it was to formalized diploma would likely be a Master's Degree.

[treestar]

13. to some degree yeah

but it takes discipline to earn the degree. It shouldn't be dismissed as a non-achievement equalled by non-academic things other do.

I have this uncle who has no degree and is very resentful of those of us who do. I am supposed to consider my degree meaningless and he's just as educated as I am. There's a point where that is bullshit. I should have some recognition for being educated, not have it dismissed like that by those who have no idea of the effort involved.

[Lurks Often]

20. I'm not saying a BA degree is a non-achievement, I'm saying

that the requirement to have a BA degree or any degree as part of the requirement to be President is both absurd and insulting. I am saying that having a BA degree does not make one automatically smarter then a person who doesn't have a BA degree.

I will also say that the knowledge required to be a good machinist, tool maker, plumber, building contractor or electrician is harder to acquire then many BA degrees are today and often pays better as well. And yes, I have one of those BA degrees in a major that is worthless in the real world.

If the number of degrees and the quality of the degrees is a sign of a good President, then most of the senior leadership in the military are far more qualified to be President then most if, not all of the current candidates of both parties.

Gen Dempsey, Chairman of the Joint Chief: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Dempsey#Education
1974 Bachelor of Science degree, U.S. Military Academy, West Point, New York
1984 Master of Arts degree in English, Duke University, Durham, North Carolina
1988 Master of Military Art and Science degree, United States Army Command and General Staff College
1995 Master of Science degree in national security and strategic studies, National War College

Gen Joseph Dunford, Commandant of the USMC
BA? Saint Michael's College in June 1977; United States Army War College & Amphibious Warfare School. MA in Government from Georgetown University and a MA in International Relations from the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University.

Gen Mark Milley, Chief of Staff US Army: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_A._Milley
BA in political science from Princeton University, a MA in international relations from Columbia University, and another MAs in national security and security studies from the U.S. Naval War College

Gen Mark Welsh, Chief of Staff USAF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Welsh#Education
1972 Wentworth Military Academy and College, Lexington, Missouri
1976 Bachelor of Science degree, U.S. Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs, Colorado
1986 Air Command and Staff College, by correspondence
1987 Master of Science degree in computer resource management, Webster University
1988 Army Command and General Staff College, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas
1990 Air War College, by correspondence
1993 National War College, Fort Lesley J. McNair, Washington, D.C.
1995 Fellow, Seminar XXI, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge
1998 Fellow, National Security Studies Program, Syracuse University, Syracuse, New York and Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Maryland
1999 Fellow, Ukrainian Security Studies, John F. Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
2002 The General Manager Program, Harvard Business School, Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts
2009 Fellow, Pinnacle Course, National Defense University, Fort Lesley J. McNair, Washington, D.C.
2009 Leadership at the Peak, Center for Creative Leadership, Colorado Springs, Colorado

and the "least" educated member of the Joint Chiefs is
Admiral Jonathan Greenert, CNO US Navy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Greenert
BS in Ocean Engineering from the USNA, plus the US Navy's school for Nuclear power for submarine service.

[CRK7376]

82. I am in good company then….

I never pinned on a star, retired as a Colonel with a BA from WFU in History/Education, MBA Touro University, a second Masters in Education from Touro University and am a graduate of the Army War College with a Masters of Strategic Studies…and would never run for office. Not the smartest one out there, but always curious and love to learn. Now that I'm retired from Uncle Sam, I teach high school history and love it. Best job ever!!!! As with many, I want my president to be smarter than me. That doesn't take much to achieve, but still…. I can't see Russia from my front porch and I do read all the time, I can even tell folks which papers and journals/magazines I read….Oh well, I never, ever want to run for elected office….but I do want a President with smarts and common sense…

[PasadenaTrudy]

14. You think

art history is easy? Why is it always art history that gets picked on? How about world history, U.S. history? Art is not created in a vacuum.

[Lurks Often]

16. There are any number of fairly worthless BA degrees

Which is certainly subjective and yes, world history and US history are among other BA degrees that are fairly worthless in the real world, at least when comes to paying the bills.

I notice you didn't argue with the degree in physical education.

[PasadenaTrudy]

19. I didn't

because I have my BA in art history! I know phys ed majors took just as many general ed classes as I did. I'm so glad I chose the major I did, it really broadened my understanding of the humanities. I did go on to grad school as well. I'm making a good living, maybe not by L.A. standards but I define success in terms other than a big paycheck.

[Lurks Often]

21. I have a worthless BA in Geography

It has had virtually no relevance to any job I've had.

I will contend it is the grad school and hard work that got you to where you are today, not the BA in Art History

[PasadenaTrudy]

22. Yeah, so?

I had to focus on a subject I loved and was good at. My partner has a BFA and an MFA in painting, he's eked out a living. He's very talented, so there's that.

[Lurks Often]

25. We've drifted from the OP

and gotten into a pissing war over what degrees we have, which was not my intent. Back to the OP's position, do you think your BA in Art History (or Geography, US History, World History, Physical Education and probably a dozen more BA's) automatically makes you more qualified to be President then someone who does not have a degree at all?

I certainly don't think my BA in Geography automatically makes me a better candidate.

You're lucky to find a subject you love and are good at, most people, including myself are rarely able to find something they love doing, are good at and pays the bills.

[RobinA]

85. Not Automatically,

of course not. An MD does not make one automatically a good doctor. But it does up the odds.

[Lurks Often]

88. It also depends on the degree

The coursework for a pre-med is far more science based, then a BA degree; then you have med school, which is far more hands on experience then most BA degrees as well.

[PasadenaTrudy]

23. I have a friend

with a geography BA, he went on to teach elementary school. He loves it. Not for everyone though!

[Lurks Often]

26. Probably has a Masters or higher in Geography AND a degree in Education

although I will grant that might be a regional thing.

[smirkymonkey]

24. Yes, I agree.

I don't think having a degree necessarily makes one smarter or more qualified, but education does open up the mind and exposes one to new ways of thinking. I have a BA and a Masters and I found that the further I went, the more my mind was expanded. I just learned to think about things in ways I had never thought of before.

However, I would say one of the best learning experiences for me was studying abroad. That completely rocked my world and changed the way I think about everything. It was a very enlightening experience.

[RobinA]

86. My Experience As Well

I got my Masters long after my BS and definitely found that it improved my thinking well outside my actual major - psychology. Not that I have become a math whiz, but I am a way better thinker than I was pre-Masters. Certainly, this is not universal, but it is a potential.

[underthematrix]

66. Thank you. Some of the comments are puzzling

[MADem]

32. It's not about "requiring" but advanced education is often a predictor of success.

Walker didn't graduate from college, and he's an idiot.

Huckabee went to a bullshit Bible College and flunked out of a seminary....and HE's an idiot.

What college sometimes does is teach people how to think. If you're a rich kid/frat boy, you pay someone else to do your homework, though, so that doesn't always work (e.g. Bush).

[Lurks Often]

35. Define success

The knowledge required to be a good machinist, tool maker, plumber, building contractor or electrician is harder to acquire then many BA degrees are today and often pays better as well.

Washington and Lincoln did not have college degrees either and they are widely considered to be the best US Presidents in history. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2015/02/12/which-u-s-presidents-didnt-earn-a-college-degree-two-of-them-are-on-mount-rushmore/

And I don't view necessarily view a college diploma as advanced education OR a predictor of success, it is more a function of who has enough money to pay for school outright or is viewed as a good enough credit risk to get a loan. That tends to rule out a lot of the poor and minorities in this country. Or, by lack of success or advanced education, are the poor or minorities are to be considered idiots?

And yes, the OP certainly seems to want to make it a requirement.

[MADem]

38. Please don't be coy. I don't want the President of the United States to fix my toilet.

Washington and Lincoln were leaders in an era where illiteracy was common and very few people had "college" educations--your example just doesn't cut it.

I'd like to see a day when anyone who wanted advanced education could get it at a reasonable cost. And people who want to continue to learn as they age have that opportunity, too. Many communities have life-long learning programs, and those are wonderful.

While you don't 'view necessarily a college diploma as advanced education OR a predictor of success,' many employers do. The degree suggests that the individual had a goal and achieved it.

If education isn't important, you go ahead and hire that drywall installer to remove your tumor. I'll take the person with the medical degree.

The OP is simply postulating a premise and inviting contrary points of view--that's one of the things they teach in college. Ever heard the expression "For the sake of argument?"

This is a discussion board--we discuss.

We'll put you down as "Doesn't see advanced education as necessary to success," how's that?

[Lurks Often]

48. Success is subjective

and even varies from state to state. $50,000 in Montana goes a lot farther then $50,000 in CT or NJ or MD.

As for Presidents, Truman didn't have a college diploma either.

Is a plumber, electrician, building contractor, machinist or auto worker making $50,000 or better not a success because they don't have a diploma?

To me the OP is very clear on wanting to make it a requirement that any future President have a college diploma. I stand by my point that is condescending and insulting to a rather large percentage of the Democratic base, including many of the unions.

[MADem]

49. But success is NOT subjective when it comes to the subject OP.

That's what the argument is about, here--the post that started the thread.

There is no "subjective" measure of "success" that will make someone a nominee for the presidency. You either get nominated and win the general election, or you don't. It's very binary, in fact.

Certainly, candidates can cheat their way to the office, they can persuade the Supreme Court to wipe their collective ass with the electoral process, and they can "win" that way, but in most situations, the person who wins the most votes is the "successful" one. It's not subjective. He or she with the most electoral votes wins.

The OP is not "very clear on wanting to make it a requirement." If she were, she wouldn't be throwing the topic open for discussion with a subject line that says "I have to ASK." Not declare--ask. Her mind would be made up and she'd be declarative and smug. She THINKS that a degree might be a good mandated requirement, and a citizenship test, but until she's questioned further, we don't know if she's being literal, or if she's snarking at Scott Walker for not finishing school. If probed, she might express the latter opinion, particularly since we know that the requirements for the Presidency are set forth in our Constitution, and there's no mention of either of those requirements.

[Lurks Often]

50. Might want to read the OP's response in post 4

"4. Yes, I do want to say that.

The job is damn important and most citizens are not qualified. I am certainly not. I do not have the patience and tolerance. It is not just education but it does seem to be a part of it.

Many candidates do not have the knowledge, patience, diplomacy and stamina to be President.

I am not one of those people who thinks that anyone can grow up to be President. The best example of my point is GWB."


Seems pretty clear to me. Best think long and hard about whether only the "right" sort of people should be allowed to run for President, because we might not like the results or who gets to define who the "right" kind of person is.

Anyhow, if you really feel that way, get the Constitution amended. Might want to also check my own post #20, because if quantity and quality of degree's is an indicator of who should be President, then the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and 3 of the 4 leaders of the US military are at least as qualified, if not more so, by the standards of the OP and yourself, to be President then any of the current candidates from either party.

[MADem]

52. She's debating the premise.

Good grief, part of what she's doing is learned in grammar or high school, not college.

Resolved: (Whereupon the premise is stated). You never encountered this kind of thing in your educational process?

Then a side takes the for, and the other takes the against.

Here: http://www.educationworld.com/a_lesson/lesson/lesson304b.shtml

Now, she might be on the "for" side, which makes her arguments easier to formulate. And she not married to the idea of university as a requirement, because she also says things like

It is not just education but it does seem to be a part of it. and I am not one of those people who thinks that anyone can grow up to be President. The best example of my point is GWB.

As we know, Bush had both a bachelors degree and a graduate degree in business.

She's hashing the issue out and looking for discussion of the topic.

Of course, here on DU that's often in short supply.

[Lurks Often]

60. Shrug, we'll disagree on how the OP's post #4 shall be interpreted

As for discussion, the OP exited the discussion about an hour after they posted and haven't been back since, although I grant work and life may have gotten in the way of following and responding to their OP

[cali]

87. sorry, being a governor of a state sort of automatically makes you a success.

Doesn't mean you aren't an idiot

[MADem]

89. Of all the governors, of all the states, how many do not have college degrees?

Walker...? Even Ahhhnuld has a BA (and he got it by the precursor to "online education" -- correspondence) from the University of Wisconsin.

It's possible for a non-degree holder to be an outlier, an exception. As I said, having one is OFTEN a predictor of success. The odds are better that one will reach that successful state if one has a degree.

[cali]

91. uh, not my point.

[MADem]

92. If your point is "Miracles can happen" well, I suppose that's true. nt

[Facility Inspector]

7. Well

College SHOULDN'T be job training, it should be preparation for a thinking life.

[treestar]

9. This ^^^^^^^^

That's what it was meant for. And should be much easier and cheaper to obtain. Then do the job training.

[PasadenaTrudy]

15. Exactly.

It helps develop critical thinking skills. Even art history courses do this..grrrr.

[truebluegreen]

41. Exactly. nt

[Skittles]

72. why are so many degreed people absolutel fucking idiots?

[azmom]

76. [phone]

[MrMickeysMom]

10. I believe the degrees one earns should only be part of what is most important...

… which is how well one participates in public life. Community service and the ability to speak publicly, BASED on an education (which usually is commensurate with higher education, but not necessarily so all the time) is a requirement.

Most of all… experience in leadership. And, that doesn't mean that you climbed the corporate ladder (the corporation is pathologically out of control, so what merit does THAT have?)

None of the higher education in life (in my case BS in education and half of master's program) compared to actually stepping into public office and being true to the associated goals of service the public. It COSTS you in the face of today's fascist state of America. If you're willing to look in the mirror after surviving that, you can step into anything. However, without the book knowledge, without being a student of history, without making sure you talk to people every day in every station of that structure, you cannot move to a point where you possess the leadership to serve as POTUS.

That would rule out everyone running in the Republican party, now wouldn't it?

[planetc]

17. My $.02, and I taught college

I was teaching in the dark ages, of course, 1965-73, but I formed strong opinions on this subject. Anyone can and should go to college, but only when that's exactly what they want to, and they know why. I remember a young woman who was taking evening classes. She was working as a hair dresser, and knew she didn't want to do that forever, so, being conveniently located in a college town, she was doing it slowly, but surely. She was a good student.

At that same school, there were four young men, all full-time resident students, who staged a sort of rebellion one day, caught me after class, and criticized my teaching style. The criticism was that I was right all the time, and that wasn't fair. They told me that "everyone" in the class felt the same way. I inquired whether student X in the front row was part of the everybody, or student Y in the back row. Their eyes shifted away from mine, as they reconsidered their generalization. And sooner or later, I realized that their rebellion was happening in 1972 or 3, and the draft was still operating, and that my four students were at real risk of being shipped to Viet Nam without their student deferments. I thought it possible that if they had been in college just to be there, and not to avoid being somewhere else, they might have been less dissatisfied. I am confident that the young woman eventually finished her degree, profited from her education, and had a more interesting (to her) career than hair dressing.

And lastly, at the first school I taught at, I had a freshman come into my Freshman Comp class writing at an honest D level. He was trying, but his preparation in high school had been lousy. He said very little during class discussions, he kept his head down, and he worked. By the time he left that class, he was writing B papers, an enormous improvement, and before I left that campus, he had gotten an LTTE published in the student newspaper that was more eloquently written than I could have done.

So, if students want to be in college to be broadly educated, to explore the history of their culture, their country and their world, to expose themselves to the best writers and thinkers, and to prepare themselves to function as fully informed citizens, they they should GO FOR IT!! If, on they other hand, they are in college because their parents think it's necessary, or they'd rather not be drafted, or for any other reason than that they want an education, they should stop, leave school, get a job, experience the world as fully as they can, and *then* decide whether they need some college.

Should presidential candidates have a college degree? Probably, because they need to be very fluent in several specialized areas of the language, both the law and the great political thinkers who founded the country. But most of all, they need to have gone to college for the right reasons, not because they thought it the only path to a $90K per year starting salary.

[Cleita]

28. I went to college in that era. I wanted to go and it was tuition free in California.

Many of the young men had done their military duty and were getting GI education benefits as well. But the fact was that everyone who wanted to could go to college if they applied themselves and got passing grades of C or better. It had the effect of getting the best and brightest educated not just those whose parents could afford it, or who were willing to assume debt.

[Shandris]

18. I find that being 'taught how to think' is about the exact opposite...

...of the definition of 'thinking'. But it's spectacular at reinforcing underlying assumptions about the world.

[smirkymonkey]

27. It's not so much about being taught how to think as it is having preconceived notions

being challenged. Therefore, being forced to think about things in a new and different way. That was my experience anyway.

[Shandris]

30. See, I find that to be a much better description too.

I never had the opportunity to go (which, with student loans as they are, I'm actually grateful for...in a sad sort of way, you know), but I would have welcomed challenging of my ideas (especially since so many of them were RW at the time).

With the focus on more profit these days, I wonder how college is compared to how it was. Erm...more as a rhetorical kind of question.

[smirkymonkey]

33. However, I am drowning in student loan debt from grad school, so I would prefer to be a little

less "challenged" if I could somehow unload this debt, which is killing me.

[truebluegreen]

42. I'd call that faulty phrasing, myself, as opposed to a faulty concept.

Imo "being taught TO think" is a better description of what can be gained in college.

[elleng]

29. Martin O'Malley is an attorney.

As being president has so much to do with the making and enforcing of laws, it's important that those holding that office either have a deep respect for and/or understanding of the mechanisms involved.

[MADem]

34. Many candidates have JD degrees. Clinton has one. Webb, too.

Chris Christie, Marco Rubio, Rick Santorum, Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz have law degrees as well.

[WillowTree]

36. Of course.......

.......you are free to use whatever criteria you think is appropriate to determine who, in your opinion, is qualified to be president. As is everyone else. Constitutionally, however, no specific level of education is required.

[underthematrix]

37. I want a highly educated President which means

beyond a bachelor's degree. I prefer a President that has a law degree and one who has practiced constitutional law. However, at a minimum I want she or he to have a law degree.

Clinton, Biden, O'Malley, Webb have law degrees. Sanders and Chaffee have bachelor's degrees.
I want a President who has enacted a policy agenda and/or federal or state laws: Clinton, Biden, O'Malley, Sanders, Webb and Chaffee have all done policy/law work

I want a President with executive leadership experience at the state and federal level: Biden, Clinton, O'Malley, Webb and Chaffee meet that standard. Sanders does not.

I want a President with foreign policy experience meaning strategic planning and implementation: Biden is in a class all his own on this one. Clinton is next, followed by Webb. Chaffee, O'Malley and Sanders do not have foreign policy experience but Sanders is a senator so he has extensive knowledge of US foreign policy

I want a President with a power coalition that can mobilize various and competing coalitions around broad based issues, e.g. health care, peace, immigration, gun control - Biden and Clinton definitely have this piece. I don't know about the others.

My ideal candidate is VPBiden. He is my first choice. I like Clinton becuase of her commitment to women and girl's issues, racial, social and economic justice, and immigration. Clinton is my second choice. I think both BIden and Clinton will build on President Obama's agenda.

However, in the end, I will fully support the Dem nominee - whoever that turns out to be

[hfojvt]

43. I find those to be strange standards

I am not fond of law degrees. I think we are already too much of a government of the lawyers, by the lawyers and for the lawyers.

Education is a good thing, but not the only thing. Abraham Lincoln had no formal education, held no degrees. He got his education for 3 dallahs in late chages at the public library, and he didn't even have a public library.

I want a President who is sincerely on the side of the bottom 80% in this country. Biden and Clinton don't meet that standard. Neither, of course, do any of the Republicans. Bernie, in my eyes, is not only unelectable, but would be a millstone around the neck of the Democratic Party. The opposition is always trying to tar us with the S-word, because they know it's poison. Nominating Bernie, unfortunately, would be like cutting off our own head and giving it to them on a silver platter. Plus, he actually voted FOR ATRA. So

[planetc]

45. a note on Lincoln

He did indeed have almost no formal education. He had perhaps three years out of what is now the standard twelve year course. But he read law with a practicing attorney, a system in use throughout the nineteenth century, and still being practiced here and there, I'm pretty sure. He read what his master attorney told him to, and he did the chores necessary in any law office. It might have constituted a sort of multi-year internship, and depending on the quality of the attorney you were apprenticed to, such an arrangement could be the equal of a three-year law degree. And also we can be confident that Lincoln read whatever he could get his hands on. We know he read the Bible with great profit. He was an exceptional mind whom no lack of financial resources could have prevented from learning as much as he could find time to learn.

So, I am with those who think there's no lack of intelligence in many people without formal undergraduate degrees. Some artisans and tradespeople are the brightest people in the neighborhood. The individual mind in question is far more important than any degree or combination of degrees.

But it's far more difficult these days to get a job you may want if you have nothing beyond a high school diploma. I doubt you could step into a successful presidential campaign from a successful career as a plumber. From a practical point of view, if you want some jobs, you need the union card, a college degree. As Mr. Huckabee demonstrates, it doesn't much matter which college it is.

[hfojvt]

46. depneds on the job and the connections

I have an MA and I keep losing out on jobs to people who have NO degree and not that much experience. Even lost my last election by a hefty margin (mostly based on party affiliation, my campaign was not very good, but I pulled about the same percentage as every other Democratic candidate in the County.)

[underthematrix]

62. I understand but here's the thing.

A law degree helps the recipient to develop and even refine their critical thinking skills. I need a President with excellent critical thinking skills because the world does not revolve around my interests. immigration is my top priority even though I'm not an immigrant. But I am African American and the idea someone would do to my Latino brothers and sisters what they did to my people is abhorrent to me. I want someone who can motivate working class and poor whites to pursue education and training instead of hate and fear. There are millions of jobs AVAILABLE RIGHT NOW in this country but you have to have the right skill set, such as coding, programming, or STEM. A high school diploma just isn't going to get it done. This is why the President also wants to make community college FREE. President Obama and Vice President Biden have been trying to tell this to white America but they are letting hate get in front of their self-interest. I want a President who can help move that education and employment agenda to the next level so working class and poor whites can get what they say they want - A JOB. The GOPKKK refused to pass President Obama's American Jobs Act. Do you remember that?

During Lincoln's time, a 3 dollar public library was probably fine for the times but today that wouldn't work. on the Democratic side we have excellent candidates. Socialism is not a bad word to me because I'm not one of those red state low info foxnews viewers. I'm really smart and all the peeps I know are just as smart. Dog whistles don't work on POCs. When we vote it's going to be for keeping our healthcare, making sure the court is stacked with progressive justices, that we implement reforms that allow full citizenship within 90 days of initial application.. We want tuition free college education. We want passage of a climate change bill. We want further regulation on Wall Street. We criminal justice reform. That's just the beginning.

Biden is great and HRC is good. But I could see O'Malley sneaking up from behind. I don't see Bernie capturing the Obama coalition because most of it goes to either BIden or HRC. We will never have another Republican president. Bush was the last one. We will never have another white president after 2016. BTW, Bernie's problem is not that he's a socialist. They called President Obama a socialist and he was elected twice. Bernie ran for gov and lost. He then successfully ran for the House and Senate. What this tells me is Bernie does good policy work but he lacks the executive leadership skill set. That's his problem.

[Doctor_J]

51. What experience does Clinton have with "executive leadership at the state and federal level"?

And if you supported Obama in 2008, I'd say you might be making some things up as you go

[MADem]

55. She was the "executive" at the State Department.

This, and all those embassies and consulates as well:



A bit more complicated than mayor of a town of less than 30K people in the eighties.

[Doctor_J]

56. ah, but we have been told that all she did was carry out the president's orders

At least on the clusterfucks. Also I am trying to think of what state level executive experience she had, and how the poster squares this check list with support for Obama in 2008.

Not really expecting a coherent answer - just rhetorical to draw attention to some glaring hypocrisy.

[MADem]

61. Some people just refuse to understand the difference between working

within a framework, which includes supporting one's boss's policies, and actually running a cabinet department. If Obama didn't need someone to run his cabinet departments, he wouldn't have a cabinet. He does expect them to be on the same page that he's on, though.

It's astounding that there are people here who would admit to being "confused" about that sort of thing--it says nothing good about their ability to understand how government works, because that's a pretty simple concept! I guess "winning!" is more important than being seen as having even a rudimentary understanding of how government works!

[underthematrix]

67. Yep. You would be surprised how little people know about the infrastructure of the

Executive branch, the congress (House and Senate) and judiciary. This is why our mainstream media focuses on the lowest common denominator of understanding - he saaid, she said, latest vid clip, latest soundbite. tHey present our candudates like they've applied for a spot on the Voice. This is why I have started spending more time reading print media. they do a much better job presenting the candidates in more detail especially their policy positions.

[TNNurse]

74. I suspect that all of the GOP

candidates have a less than basic understanding of how any part of the federal government works......even those who are senators.

They talk as if they will be able to do anything they want. If they asked President Obama, I am sure he could enlighten them.

Just wondering, has there been a presidential candidate before who has never had any kind of government or elected job.....like Trump????????

[underthematrix]

75. I imagine there have been some. Ross Perot comes to mind.

However, i can't find one candidate who became president who did hold elected first. It is is interesting to note that President Obama is the 3rd sitting US Senator to be elected to the Presidency. John F. Kennedy was the 2nd and Warren Harding was the first.
I didn't know it was so rare.

[MADem]

90. Did or didn't?

Didn't Grant come straight from the military? Same deal with Ike. And Washington, of course... Taft and Hoover were never elected to anything before they became POTUS, though they had appointments in government.

[underthematrix]

93. Yes. You're right. The only elected office Grant, Eisenhower and Taft held was president.

All three were Republicans.

[MADem]

96. Of course, Republicans in the time of Grant were like Democrats are today.

They were abolitionists, they believed in the rights of humans. The Democrats at the time were the slavery cheerleaders, and the "solid south" of segregationists was entirely Democratic, to our great shame.

The 'flip' started with Roosevelt, and was completed when LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act.

As for Ike, he was unaffiliated for his entire military career--as most thoughtful military careerists are. He went with the GOP because they had a better structure to get him to the White House, I think. He was courted by both parties.

[underthematrix]

97. Yes they were normal back then

[underthematrix]

64. President Obama had the most sophisticated and successful campaign in

recent history. President Obama was the executive of that operation. It was set up very similar to how the WH works, which was very clever on his part. That was President Obama's pre-election EXECUTIVE experience.

[Doctor_J]

69. well, senator sanders has that same "experience"

So, like I said, you're just making it up. Which is OK, but will only convice those who already are in that fantasy land.

[underthematrix]

73. Sen Sanders was mayor of Burlington VT which is LOCAL executive experience

Sen Sanders was not given any chairmanships while he was in the House or the SEnate because he was not a DEMOCRAT even though he caucused with the Dems. Sen Reid said if Sanders registered as a Dem he would give him a committee chair but not as an Independent. Sen Sanders ran for VT gov but lost. So no he does not have state or federal executive leadership experience.

[underthematrix]

63. HRC was Secretary of State which is a cabinet level position

[MADem]

54. I agree with your priorities. Education is not the enemy, yet it would seem that some here

are a bit hostile towards it, and that's a real shame.

[underthematrix]

68. yes. Do you recall during PBO's re-election bid

Rick Santorum called President Obama elitist because he was pushing an education agenda. Now Santorum was saying this while getting his oldest son ready for college the following year.

[MADem]

80. Santorum had no real home in PA--an empty crackerbox that couldn't hold all his children, a

residence in which he did not reside.

He had a massive manse in McLean, VA, where his children were homeschooled via computer, and the state of PA was charged tens of thousands of dollars for their lessons.

The man is a grifter.

Rick Santorum's home-school hokum

America's most famous home-schooler spent three years soaking Pennsylvania taxpayers for his kids' education

As various media outlets from Mother Jones to the Washington Post have reminded us in recent weeks, Santorum’s record as a home-schooler is ambiguous at the very least, and arguably hypocritical. From 2001 through at least 2004, when Santorum was serving in the Senate and living full-time in Loudoun County, Va., five of his children were enrolled in an online charter school based in Pennsylvania — a public school, albeit an unusual one — with computers, curricula and other educational services provided at taxpayer expense. According to the Penn Hills Progress, a newspaper in Santorum’s suburban Pittsburgh hometown that broke the story at the time, the local school district had spent approximately $100,000 educating the senator’s so-called home-schooled children, although they lived neither in the district nor in the state.

Santorum owned a modest three-bedroom, 2,000-square-foot house in Penn Hills (and reportedly still does), on which he paid about $2,000 a year in taxes. But owning a home is not sufficient to prove residency, and public records, neighborhood testimony and common sense all suggest that Santorum’s constantly enlarging family — his kids now range from age 3 to age 20 — never actually lived there. (At the time of the Penn Hills Progress investigation, Santorum’s wife’s niece and her husband were registered to vote at that address.) Appearing to live in Pennsylvania was distinctly advantageous for the Santorums, because state law required school districts to pay 80 percent of the online charter-school tuition for local families who chose it. (No such law pertained in Virginia.) The Penn Hills district challenged Santorum’s local residency, and the ensuing dispute only ended when the senator withdrew his kids from the Pennsylvania Cyber Charter School. Since 2006 the Santorum kids have reportedly been registered as Virginia home-schoolers.

When Penn Hills tried to bill Santorum for $72,000 that the state had withheld from the local education budget to cover the senator’s kids’ online tuition, he refused to pay. In the end, the Pennsylvania department of education was forced to refund most of that money to the local district. In other words, the Santorums presented themselves to the world as home-schoolers for at least three years, while Pennsylvania taxpayers picked up the bill for their kids’ education — and they actually lived in a different state. For a private citizen, this would have been an embarrassing ethical lapse, but somewhat short of criminal misconduct. For a politician whose reputation rests upon issues of character and integrity, it’s considerably more damning.

[underthematrix]

94. yes. I remember this story.

[tritsofme]

44. I generally agree, but these are restrictions voters should set in the voting booth.

The law should not exclude you from running.

[underthematrix]

71. Of course there SHOULD NOT be a law restricting a

potential candidate due to education. This is definitely a personal values issue.

[TDale313]

59. I don't think it should be a constitutional requirement

For the office. I will say I would say, I would tend to like someone better educated for President, but not a deal breaker.

[Juicy_Bellows]

70. I don't think it matters.

I've known so many people with advanced degrees that aren't very smart. I've also met many people with no college experience at all that are gifted beyond belief. It's the person running not the paper behind them.

EDIT - the proof is in the pudding - G Dubya graduated from Yale.

[PatrickforO]

77. Honestly, I think Bernie and Hillary would both walk away with it.

The Republicans in the Clown Car?

[PatrickforO]

78. By the way, Bernie's got a Bachelor's in Poly Sci from the University of Chicago

[PatrickforO]

79. Scott Walker dropped out of Marquette University.

And of course he's been a total disaster for the people of Wisconsin.

[TNNurse]

83. Well, I did get folks talking.

I am a strong believer in PUBLIC education. I do not believe everyone needs a college education. It is elitist and ignorant to think that. I was raised by a mother who taught me that there were people who were different but that those differences did not make anyone better just different.

To assume that expecting the highest job in the country needs a level of education and experience is not elitist to me. I have an education but I am no more qualified than Scott Walker who doesn't apparently. Just because someone has job experience does not mean they are good at it....GW Bush comes to mind. We have all encountered people who manage to hang on to jobs even though they are not very good at them.

Going to church does not make you religious. Actions are a better measure.

I want presidential candidates who are open minded, who have behavioral restraint and passion. I want them to have knowledge of how the federal government works. I want them to have a basic grasp of the Constitution ( you know like separation of church and state) and an awareness of world affairs. I want a candidate who understands that we do not run the whole damn world and that we should work with the UN and not try to intervene everywhere.

It is a huge job, it requires a thoughtful, rational person. I am not seeing that in the GOP.

I did not stay in this conversation as much as some of you. Life does get in the way. This is not my life and there is something very significant happening today that required preparation. I may not be on here for awhile.

Please be respectful of each other and argue or discuss calmly.