Allowing biological men to use women's restrooms?

[Nye Bevan]

Not referring to single-stall restrooms here but to setups like in highway rest stops where there are multiple stalls which have doors but do not provide complete privacy because of the gaps around the doors.

53 votes, 9 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Biological men should be allowed access to women's restrooms without any restrictions.
	24 (45%)
	Biological men with medical documentation of being transgender (such as proof of hormone treatment or surgery) should be allowed access to women's restrooms.
	3 (6%)
	Biological men should never be allowed access to women's restrooms.
	26 (49%)
	9 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Warren DeMontague]

1. we definitely shouldnt let mechanical men use them.

[Agnosticsherbet]

2. Most women I know would be uncomfortable if a man enters to do his bussiness,

So I will defer to women on this issue.

[CTyankee]

8. As a woman, I don't think I'd care if Caitlyn Jenner entered the women's bathroom I was in.

If she considers herself a woman, I don't care if she was a previous "man." If (s)he hadn't had the surgery yet, it might be a difficulty on him/her. Male urinals are convenient for someone with a more or less intact penis.

[Doingto]

157. The thread is not just about transgender people

Read the title.

[backscatter712]

164. Is it?

Or is the title a way of sneaking a toxic meme about trans people into the discussion?

[CreekDog]

345. Exactly right. Nye is saying that transgendered female is not necessarily female

but may be "biologically male".

in the usual divisive, drive-a-wedge amongst those liberals (and he's told us he's not a liberal)...

[pnwmom]

219. She takes hormones, so she's partially transitioned. n/t

[MillennialDem]

383. That may be, but I'm pretty likely to get attacked if I use a men's bathroom

[CTyankee]

384. OK, this is making me crazy...I'm just taking myself out before I go completely nuts...

See ya!

[Warren DeMontague]

26. Me, I'm uncomfortable when anyone refers to it as "doing their business"

unless they're talking about a dog.

[Ed Suspicious]

38. I would be fully uncomfortable if a woman were in the men's room while I was using the urinal.

I would be mortified if a woman were in the restroom while I was trying to take a Trump. It must be my age and the way I was raised. I don't have an answer to the question posted in the OP. My daughter fought a local political battle to allow for transgendered individuals to use whatever bathroom they feel comfortable in. I supported her in that fight. I just don't really know what to think.

[CrispyQ]

57. "...take a Trump."

[Lancero]

245. Reminded me of this...

[img][/img]

[Laffy Kat]

99. I sometimes go in men's room when there is a line at the women's.

I keep my eyes down and head toward a stall. Doesn't seem to bother anyone. I get really po'd when establishments don't have enough women's rrs. I have also seen men bring their daughters in women's rrs and the women seemed to understood.

[Agnosticsherbet]

119. My wife has asked me to stand guard a few times when the ladies loo

Was busy or unavailable.

[underahedgerow]

312. Exactly, it's a toilet, no big deal. If a guy is lounging around an empty ladies room, that's

another story, but yanno, it's just biological needs.

Although this is said with the expectation that men will behave themselves, not sure how realistic THAT is!

[ibegurpard]

267. I wouldn't be comfortable either

But a transgender man you probably wouldn't even take a second glance at.
Forcing a transgender woman to use the men's room is dangerous to her.

[woolldog]

278. Dangerous?

Why?

[backscatter712]

289. A woman walking into a men's room with a bunch of creepers...

Naw, not dangerous at all.

She'd fit right in...

[woolldog]

394. A number of women have posted

in this very thread that they use the men's restroom with no problem when the women's restroom is too crowded. I find the assumption that the men's restroom is inherently "dangerous" kind of odd and offensive. As if men are wild animals.

[markpkessinger]

373. Exactly . . .

I mean, if this guy (a rather famous trans man who goes by the name Buck Angel) walked into a men's room, who would even suspect he was anything other than a biological male?

[ion_theory]

45. Completely agree here..

Just like almost all the issue that come up with abortion, I'm a male who does not feel that this situation affects me so leave it up to the people whom it affects. But then I think if I had a daughter it does affect her, so maybe my opinion would change then.

[pnwmom]

223. I think the real question for a man might be, if you had a 10 year old daughter

and you had seen a person who appeared to be a man go into the ladies room, and you weren't aware of any other women in there, would you let your daughter go alone into the bathroom with the person who appeared male?

If you'd let your daughter go into a ladies room with women -- but not alone with someone who appeared male -- then you'd be like most caring parents.

[uppityperson]

246. How do you know who is already in there or not? What about teachers at school, or maybe

sports coaches, or someone teaching an extracurricular class that is male?

[pnwmom]

253. Sometimes it is possible to know just by looking into the door.

It all depends on the set-up, obviously. And a coach would not be alone -- he'd be with kids.

So my question was what a man would do if he thought there was only a man in the ladies' room. Would he send his 10 year old daughter in by herself? Or would he hesitate? Or just have her wait till that person left or more females walked in?

We were staying in Nevada at a time when a little girl got raped and killed by a man in a casino/hotel restroom. It was a slightly different situation, because the girl went in first, followed by a man. It was caught on the hotel security camera.

Yes, this kind of thing is rare. But parents protect their children from rare circumstances all the time. I've never heard a father say he would send his daughter into a ladies room that was unoccupied except for someone who appeared male. No matter how idealistic.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/29/us/girl-7-raped-and-slain-at-a-casino-in-nevada.html

LAS VEGAS, Nev., May 28— A 7-year-old girl was raped and strangled in a hotel-casino, apparently by a young man who was captured on a surveillance videotape after following her into a women's bathroom.

The body of the girl, Sherrice Iverson, was discovered inside a locked corner stall in the bathroom at the Primadonna Casino in Primm, about 40 miles from Las Vegas.

[uppityperson]

257. How about he simply walked in with her and waited with her if there was a line, or for her to

use the toilet in the stall?

I don't know why a man would think a female was incapable of harming his child either.
Children should not be allowed to go with women at school
http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/30/justice/philadelphia-child-abduction/
Or the playground
http://nypost.com/2015/05/20/woman-arrested-after-trying-to-kidnap-child-in-central-park-cops/

[pnwmom]

266. The point is that most fathers would trust their daughter alone in a bathroom

with a strange female but not a strange male. Even progressive fathers.

Why? Because a ladies room is meant for women. If a man goes in there, the question is why.

[uppityperson]

274. Why would a man trust his daughter to strange women either?

Women do hurt children also.

[pnwmom]

283. Yes, they do. But a man who is in the ladies room for no apparent reason

should be a parental cause of concern -- less so than a woman who would be expected to be in the ladies.

[uppityperson]

292. Why? Maybe a man walking into a women's rest room is going it to fetch their child, or someone

who needs help. Or maybe because the men's is closed or he really has to go or just missed the sign.

Why would you trust a man less than a woman?

[pnwmom]

294. I said "for no apparent reason" and empty restroom. So your examples don't fit.

I wouldn't trust a man in the ladies room the same way I'd trust a woman in the ladies room.

I explained why, but you disagree. Oh well.

[uppityperson]

300. I wouldn't trust anyone loitering in an empty restroom for no apparent reason

But hey, that's just me. You would trust a loitering woman.

[pnwmom]

308. Women take longer in the bathroom than men. That's been measured.

So it would depend on the definition of loitering.

[prayin4rain]

301. Maybe I missed something, but I think statistics is the very obvious answer.

Statistically, it is unlikely that I or my child will be the victim of a violent stranger crime. However, if one of us is the victim of a violent stranger crime, it is statistically overwhelmingly likely that it will be committed by a man, not a woman. This is so obvious I feel like I missed something?

Of course, trans women are women, not men, so it seems a little off topic to be talking about men. ...but, I guess that came from the poor wording of the poll?

[uppityperson]

302. Statistics show most car accidents happen closed to home so you shouldn't drive closed to where you

live.

How does that old saying go? Lies, damned lies, and statistics?

[prayin4rain]

304. No one is suggesting

we stop using the restroom altogether?

The crux of the question is whether or not men being in restrooms with women is a legitimate safety concern.

Trans women, neither pre nor post-op, nor those who never intend to op, are a legitimate safety concern.

Are cis men? I'm quite sure that a woman is less likely to be raped by a woman than a man in a public restroom, even in our segregated way of bathrooming. Would unisex bathrooms really increase that risk? Or will the net number of risk-taking rapists remain the same and the danger to women not increase?

I just don't understand questioning why a woman would fear for her physical safety more in the presence of a strange man than a strange woman. Reality is why.

[pnwmom]

310. And transwomen fear for their safety in men's rooms, with good reason.

And yet there seems to be a blind spot about understanding why most women wouldn't be comfortable with cis-men in ladies rooms.

[CreekDog]

350. pnwmom is repeating the false meme that giving the transgendered civil rights risks sexual predation

sad.

[pnwmom]

309. Right. The issue isn't transwomen, it's men. n/t

[CreekDog]

347. Again, you keep trying to get us to deny the civil rights of the transgendered

because you're thinking that giving them these rights will enable sexual predators.

you should really think about what you're doing. you sound like Huckabee.

[yardwork]

357. + 100000

[pnwmom]

374. And you keep denying women the right to be safe from attacks of cis-males. n/t

[CreekDog]

378. How do laws against the transgendered protect you from attacks of cismales?

[pnwmom]

379. Laws keeping cis-males out of ladies rooms protect all women

including transwomen, who often say they don't feel safe in men's rooms. Because of the cis-men who are there.

[CreekDog]

380. so that's the only thing you want codified in law?

to by law, prohibit any male from using a women's restroom?

of course, wouldn't such a law make it illegal for someone who is transitioning to male from using the women's restroom?

you what's really sad?

you seem to think picking on these people is the key to your safety.

get real.

[CreekDog]

381. why should laws that harm people be based on your ignorance?

seriously?

that's what you keep posting.

you want to ban those who identify as male, but for part of their lives, were viewed or "look" female...you want to ban them from the women's restroom?

and you say you care about their safety? sure you do.

why should your ignorance on this topic be the basis for a law?

[pnwmom]

390. The harm against some has to be weighed against the harm against others.

There is a reason we have same-sex bathrooms, and it's not because of fear of transgender people.

[CreekDog]

391. Who are you saying it's okay to harm?

tell us, specifically.

[pnwmom]

393. No one. So the best solution is probably individual bathrooms. n/t

[CreekDog]

346. Can I honestly ask why you think your own hangups about the transgendered are so important?

For a few years now, you've been posting rather regularly the mythical concern that if the transgendered are allowed to use the women's room, then suddenly male/sexual predators will be able to legally use the women's room provided they tell people that they are transgendered.

Can you stop trying to get us to deny the civil rights of a fairly embattled community just because you have some sort of issue that is not related to the transgendered.

[yardwork]

354. As the mother of sons, this came up every time they used a public bathroom.

There are a lot more child molesters than there are transgender people.

Did I feel comfortable watching my sons walk into a bathroom with all those men? Not particularly. I handled it by (1) teaching my kids what to do if anybody made them feel uncomfortable (note that I said anybody - most molesters know their victims and many are family members) - and (2) I stood near the entrance and made clear eye contact with everybody who went in after my boys. Mama bear was there.

There's no reason to be bigoted against trans people just because there are molesters in the world.

[Tree-Hugger]

386. This

I have taught my children the same.

[woolldog]

395. "I stood near the entrance

and made clear eye contact with everyone who went in after my boys."

That's weird. How in the world would that do anything? The people entering the restroom at that point have no idea why you're doing that or that you're waiting for someone inside and probably thought you were creepy or looking for a good time.

[ion_theory]

376. I think I was thinking more along the lines of..

self identified females and not documented transgender female. What then would stop someone from throwing on a dress and legally being allowed to hang out in the women's bathroom. However, with transgender rights being such a hot issue I can't tell if I'm just making a right-wing argument there or not.

[AngryAmish]

49. They just have to get over their old fashioned stereotypes.

This is a civil rights issue.

[SusanCalvin]

118. As long as we have stalls for the "business", I'm good.

As for the rest of the usual activities, I have no problem with washing my hands next to anyone at all.

[Starry Messenger]

3. Trans women are women.

I don't think making them carry papers to check in the bathroom is a hallmark of a democratic society.

[closeupready]

5. Noticed that, too, in the questions, and didn't know how to respond.

A "biological man" who is "transgender" is, post-op, a "biological woman".

[JustAnotherGen]

36. That's why I was like - huh?

[Starry Messenger]

40. I feel like we are wandering into Focus on the Family

territory here. One of my cousins is a trans woman and she'd be terribly hurt if someone called her a "biological male." I feel threads like this are crafted to be deliberately insensitive.

[JustAnotherGen]

102. I agree with you

I posted this in the GLBT group this past Friday -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1137&pid=45907

Definitely crafted to be insensitive. Your cousin might like my "French Model" idea. She knows how the ladies room lines get backed up at events and in bars ( if she parties)!

See - I can be inclusive AND see how there's something in it for me!

[Starry Messenger]

105. I wish all public bathrooms were like that!

I've never been a fan of the communal experience as we have it here.

[enlightenment]

112. Most of the public toilets

I've visited in the UK are like that. Discrete cubicles; walls or partitions to the floor and a full door (I particularly like the stalls in the British Museum - tiled floor to ceiling walls with full doors - each cubicle has a small window for ventilation/light during the day.

Makes a lot more sense.

As for gender; I don't care, as long as they aim, flush, and not stand on the toilet seat without wiping off their dirty shoe prints.

[HERVEPA]

326. "Definitely crafted to be insensitive"

That is the stock in trade of the OP.

[JustAnotherGen]

327. So glad another person sees it - I've added to this

I'm still trying to figure out -


A. What is a biological man


and

B. How he intends to 'monitor' whether or not a woman going into a potty stall has a vagina?


This idea of monitoring is like - craaaaaaaaaay craaaaaaaaaaaay!


ETA - I'm just going to link to it - so you know why I'm thinking this is bananas.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7153439


Nye Bevan (21,066 posts)

32. The problem is, if no proof at all is required, you are effectively allowing any man to enter any women's restroom at any time (because he can always claim to identify as a female). And I and many other DUers are not willing to allow that.

[backscatter712]

140. Welcome to the land of TERF framing.

Trans Exclusionary Reactionary Feminists have been playing this game for quite some time...

[Starry Messenger]

142. Yes, I've had my run-ins before, here and elsewhere.

We got a few nasties banned from DU and try to get them out before they get too cozy, if we spot them. They make being a feminist on DU difficult when they start to troll here with their bs.

[whathehell]

54. The problem is, how to distinguish a true trans woman

from some criminal poser just trying to get access to women.

[Starry Messenger]

69. It's settled case law.

http://www.advocate.com/commentary/2015/03/18/op-ed-bathrooms-will-be-next-lgbt-rights-battleground

"By making sure the scope of nondiscrimination laws and ordinances extend to sexual orientation and gender identity, activists were largely successful in delaying the fight, but it's been avoided rather than won. That means attacks such as these will continue to happen. They will continue to meet some degree of success, given that public opinion still reveals startlingly retrograde views about LGBT people in general. So as long as transgender people are seen as less authentic than cisgender (nontrans) people, the idea of transgender people in public bathrooms will still incite the sort of fear that drives this legislation.

Fortunately, at least in the United States, the impact of these bills will be limited. The Department of Justice has finally engaged, and has now unequivocally said that discrimination on the basis of gender identity, which these bills engage in, is discrimination on the basis of sex under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act. That determination presumably also applies to the Fourteenth Amendment, suggesting that state action to discriminate against transgender people will receive substantial scrutiny from the judiciary."

The government has determined that the fear that men are trying to get into bathrooms under cover of being a trans woman is not worthy of consideration, as it should be.

[whathehell]

77. In practice, it will likely

play out about as "settled" as Roe vs. Wade.

[Starry Messenger]

91. And attacked by the same right-wing enemies.

[whathehell]

263. The right to privacy

as it's appliIied in the case of Roe v..Wade is substantially different than the issues at stake here.

I wouldn't be so a quick to paint those concerned with "biological male's having

open access to women's rest rooms" as Right Wingers -- you've got seven Duers in

in the poll expressing objection to it -- Are they all Right Wingers?

[Starry Messenger]

269. Why not? Lots of Freepers here.

It is demonstrably true that hate groups have taken up Trans bathroom fears as their new standard, just as they did with Roe, and still do. I refuse to feed into their hatred, and feel any real feminist would follow suit. Why perpetuate more hate against women, which is all that transphobia does?

[whathehell]

281. Sorry, but I think you're jumping the gun here

especially in assuming those favoring gender specific toilets "hate" the other sex.

Do you really think, for instance, that the custom of separating biological women from biological men

in public rest rooms is indicative of their "hate" for each another?

Please give me a break.

[Starry Messenger]

286. Trans-inclusion is the standard set out by case law.

Trans women are women, they are allowed by law to use the facilities that corresponds to their gender identity. If you favor gender specific facilities, than it follows that trans women who do as well be allowed in them, which is what the law says too.

If the self-appointed penis police have a problem with that, that is on them, not on transwomen or their allies.

[whathehell]

337. That's nice, but csee law is not what is under discussion..

What we are discussing are attitudes and feelings.

If you have a problem with that, I suggest you

complain to the original poster.

[Starry Messenger]

339. You replied to me. You're welcome.

I have no complaints. Attitudes and feelings are irrelevant.

[whathehell]

352. After you replied to me...

"Attitudes and feelings are irrelevant" ?

Good luck with that one.

[Starry Messenger]

389. Check the subthread, you replied first to me. #54

I have no interest in detaining you. The law trumps feelings about this, and anyone with attitudes and feelings about trans women using the restroom that matches their gender identity are just as irrelevant as Kim Davis.

[whathehell]

399. Lol..Sorry, not interested in petty "who said it first" competitions

and I appreciate your lack of interest in detaining me, as I have none in being detained by you, being currently ensconced,

in a.sunny European beach town, a million mental miles away from you, Kim Davis and transgender restrooms.

Have a good one.

[Warren Stupidity]

163. that is just right wing transphobic nonsense

it is an invented problem. Transgender people use gender appropriate bathrooms all the time and nobody knows. It is not a problem except to people who want to make it a problem because of their anxiety about transgender people.

[uppityperson]

190. So what would you like? A door guard, checking everyone's papers before they enter?

you know, the official government ones that state "I am a transgender woman" or "I am a cic-woman"? I mean, wtf? Seriously, what?

[whathehell]

230. Yes, of course,..

That's exactly what I had in mind...

wtf back at you

[uppityperson]

234. You do know, I hope that rapists have "access to women" all over, not just in unisex restrooms

This is a very odd discussion.

[whathehell]

249. Yes, it is a very odd discussion

You'll get no argument from me there.

[uppityperson]

251. I especially like requests for definitions and to clarify something that are ignored

Lots of funness there.

[whathehell]

271. Enjoy yourself

It's going to be a bumpy ride.

[CreekDog]

348. Don't play along with the meme

Giving the transgendered their civil rights does not enable sexual predators.

Say it with me.

[CreekDog]

351. so you're saying that rapists say that they are transgendered

in order to legally access the women's restroom?

have you thought this through as little as it appears?

[whathehell]

356. I'm not saying anything like that..

Looks like it's you that needs to think things through.

[CreekDog]

359. Well if you were trying to communicate something different

your posts are betraying you.

[whathehell]

400. No, I think

your interpretation of my posts are betraying you.

[winter is coming]

392. Because public restrooms are the only place they could find women?

Because a criminal poser couldn't dress up as a maintenance man?

[whathehell]

398. Why do you think society decided to mandate sex segregated public lavatories in.the first place?

Do you consider it some silly, out-dated cultural more

we should have scrapped long ago?

This is one.of the sillier, more disingenuous conversations I've had here.

.

[WinkyDink]

80. How do you define "women," then?

[Starry Messenger]

88. By the legal definition, that is commonly accepted now to be nondiscriminatory.

Here's a great place to get started: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_woman

[geek tragedy]

96. +1 nt

[closeupready]

4. I don't support unisex restrooms, sorry.

Some may think that's not progressive of me, but oh well.

[WillowTree]

31. Neither do I.

And in the case of locker rooms, Hell no!

[Ed Suspicious]

42. I'm with you. But someday I'll die off and the rest can pee and poop in perfect harmony.

I think I have bathroom hangups. One of the most mortifying experiences for me was as an early teen using the restroom at I think it was Milwaukee County Stadium during a Brewers game. We had an open air trough in which to piss. I stood there for what felt like forever with an ever-lengthening line behind me as I suffered stage fright. I vote for completely private restrooms. I don't want to be in that situation with men. Imagining women sharing my pee space . . . I'll just stay home.

[Skittles]

162. troughs sound disturbing

yuck

[backscatter712]

166. Yuck is a good word.

Trough urinals are fucking disgusting.

[Ms. Toad]

175. This isn't about unisex restrooms.

It is about letting women, who happen to be trangender, use the bathroom that matches their gender. In other words, letting women use the women's bathroom.

The question is, likely intentionally, offensively worded to assert that transwomen are not really women.

[Zorra]

221. Absolutely correct. I alerted on the OP for exactly that reason.

It has been my experience, that DU juries rarely hide homophobic or transphobic posts.

Allowing biological men to use women's restrooms?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027150702

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

Transphobic post, hurtful, rude, and insensitive to the DU transgender population.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Tue Sep 8, 2015, 06:36 PM, and voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm not seeing what is allegedly offensive.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: "biological" men?
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It is a legitimate question.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I think the post is obnoxious shit stirring, so I'm voting to hide.

Thank you.

[Ms. Toad]

260. I alerted on it after you did.

I figured I would not be the first - and I was right.

Thank you for trying.

[DirtDart1319]

196. I agree

[Major Nikon]

207. My first experience with a unisex community restroom was in the military

This was decades ago. It was in temporary officer's quarters at Thule, AB Greenland. Danish contractors (male and female) were routinely assigned the same quarters as visiting officers. The toilet and shower stalls had doors from floor to ceiling with all the sinks in the community area.

The first time I realized it was unisex I was wearing only a towel and flip-flops shaving at the sink when a Danish woman walked in and went straight to one of the showers.

After I thought about it I figured it was actually a pretty good idea.

[CreekDog]

353. so you don't ever eat at small restaurants?

[jeff47]

6. Uh.....what?

Were you trying to put these men in the women's bathroom?

http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2015/03/14/trans-folks-respond-bathroom-bills-wejustneedtopee-selfies
http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201503121908-0024623

They're "biological women".

[Nye Bevan]

9. If they are biological women, this poll does not apply to them,

since I specified "biological men".

Sorry if the question was not clear but not sure how to make it clearer.

[jeff47]

11. If you're going to kick the "biological men" to the men's room...

...then you're going to put the "biological women" in the women's room.

And good luck telling the transgender men from the cisgender men.

[Nye Bevan]

12. You seem to be arguing for men to be allowed to use whichever bathroom they choose.

So I'm not sure why you haven't chosen the first option in the poll.

[jeff47]

17. Nope. I'm arguing that throwing transgender people into the opposite bathroom is bad.

I didn't vote because you very carefully chose to avoid using the word "transgender" in your OP.

[Nye Bevan]

29. Read the OP again. The word "transgender" is in there (nt)

[jeff47]

129. As a poll choice, after you've set up people to reject it by using "biological male" everywhere else

Enjoy your transphobia.

[CreekDog]

355. you're the guy who sounded upset that he couldn't use the word "cripple" anymore

or that the LA Times stopped using "illegal immigrant".

sounds like Jeff has you pegged. you want to use the insensitive terms and you have a sad when you can't.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2786146

[uppityperson]

192. What do you mean by "biological men"? I do not understand the use of that term.

thank you for clarifying.

[tblue37]

239. From that linked page: the impossible choice!

http://twitter.com/Cailin_Becoming/status/575985419432697856/photo/1



Does this young woman belong in a men's restroom? Would she be safe there?

[Shandris]

7. I don't see any further purpose of having seperate restrooms.

If we support transgender people, then there is no other alternative. So this, at least to me, seems to be more a question of consistency.

I do think locks on stalls would be an appropriate measure, though, or perhaps a hospital-like 'emergency cord'.

[WillowTree]

34. Why are the comfort and preferences ONLY of those who are transgender to be considered?

'Cause that's not diversity. Think about it.

[Shandris]

52. It's not. I'm not considering 'comfort and preference' at ALL.

I'm considering the progressive argument (as I see it), which is that we as people are equal and (should) have equal expectations of each other. In order for that to happen, EVERYONE -- myself included -- must go through some things that make us uncomfortable. This is one of them.

We can not continue to say that we support transgender people...when it's comfortable. I don't care if they're .0000000000000001% of the population. There is no actual safety in 'separate bathrooms' either; rather, it's simply a nod to the fact that as a general tendency, white people (as in, the people who made society in aggregate) like order and as such won't go into the 'wrong' bathroom. But anyone actually looking to commit a crime is already past stepping into the 'wrong' bathroom to begin with, so it's really yet another arbitrary separation. If it weren't for our Judeo-Christian background, there might not even be separate bathrooms in the first place(!).

So that's a bit of a more expansive explanation of why I (admittedly, somewhat reluctantly, but mostly because of old habits and beliefs) think that the only possible proper answer to this question is the elimination of 'wrong' bathrooms to begin with.

[WillowTree]

101. OK. I understand that you're saying.......

.......that the concerns of those who disagree with you are invalid and should be disregarded out of hand, regardless of the source of said concerns.

Good for you. I disagree.

[Shandris]

106. Ahh, so you failed reading comprehension. That's okay.

There's room for everyone in the new world.

[WillowTree]

111. I failed nothing.

You show no interest in what someone else's perspective is or where it stems from. If I have concerns about unisex restrooms (and let's not even talk about locker rooms), you obviously don't care what they are. But thanks for the patronizing bullshit. Such always makes a person look good.

[pecwae]

151. There's a lot of that.

I have concerns as well. What we receive if we voice them is a snide "thank you for your concern".

[Shandris]

231. Thank you for your concern.

If I'm going to be accused of it, I might as well get the enjoyment of saying it I suppose. *shrug*

[pecwae]

307. Always happy to oblige. nt

[CreekDog]

361. Are you proud of yourself for thinking that if the transgendered are allowed to use a restroom

that this will allow sexual predators to come into the restroom?

do you hear yourself? why is it that you're concerned about the transgendered in this way? how would excluding them MAKE YOU SAFE?

THEY aren't the problem, enacting laws to HURT THEM will not make you safe.

[CreekDog]

360. because they aren't "comfort and preferences" but Civil Rights

try to keep up with us.

[WillowTree]

382. Ah yes. Taking a condescending tone always wins people over to your view!

[CreekDog]

388. If you don't approve of a condescending tone, why did you call using the bathroom a "convenience"

for transgendered people?

if that isn't condescending to them, what is?

but i guess it's okay to take that tone with them, but when i do it back to you, your feelings are hurt.

i'll make you a deal, now that you discovered you don't like the tone, don't use it on the transgendered and i won't use it on you.

deal?

[Warpy]

10. I've happily shared the women's loo with drag queens

at sketchy bars and greasy spoon restaurants in the theater districts. No big deal, and much better than hearing them get beaten up in the gents'.

[Nye Bevan]

14. In posting this poll I'm thinking more about grandmothers at highway rest stops

than drag queens in the theater district.

[LanternWaste]

15. Maybe a separate grandmother's restroom then?

Maybe a wholly separate grandmother's restroom then, off-set from all the others?

[Ed Suspicious]

44. As a man a few short months away from becoming a grandfather, I would welcome this option

as long as it is offered to men.

[peace13]

293. Many places have 'family' restrooms.

This is a third option. Anyone can use them.

[geardaddy]

358. ...

excellent reposte!

[whathehell]

401. How about a separate transgender bathroom?

There's many more grandmothers, I suspect, then transgenders.

[LeftyMom]

20. Sharing bathrooms with grandmothers is tolerable.

Sure, their perfume smells weird but other than that...

[Warpy]

280. Oh, yeah, gotta protect those poor, innocent little grannies.

good grief.

[Jamastiene]

342. zOMG, grandma got runned over by a

transgender person...

You are being silly. Why are you thinking about grandmothers at highway rest stops anyhow? Don't you have anything better to do with your time than to manufacture problems where there should be none?

[elehhhhna]

144. honey, we have all shared restrooms with people in drag

If we get out much.

Go to the loo that you are dressed for. Voila. Next problem?

[Warpy]

148. Exactly the way I feel about it.

Pronouns for how anyone is dressed, also.

[elehhhhna]

152. it's not like anyone's doing a butt check when you walk in

I hope!

[uppityperson]

193. As a middle aged female wearing levis and a flannel shirt, I need to use the gents room?

Since I do not have on a dress?

[qwlauren35]

13. Wow.

Last edited Tue Sep 8, 2015, 07:42 PM - Edit history (2)

This poll really shocks me. Women's bathroom stalls are locked. I couldn't care less what someone is doing in the stall next to mine. I couldn't care less if the woman in the stall next to mine has a penis.

The only reason why I can think that there might be discomfort is the thought that a woman would get raped in the bathroom. And typically, rapists have penises, so someone with a penis in the bathroom is scary. I don't really see the risk as any higher than having a woman come in and slit my throat.

BUT! If that's the fear, I guess it's real.

[Nye Bevan]

32. Obviously banning men from women's restrooms reduces the probability of rape happening.

The question is, how to balance the reduction of the risk of rape against allowing transgender people to use the bathroom they feel most comfortable with. Hence this poll.

[Warren Stupidity]

167. no it doesn't. What evidence do you have for that?

Oh wait, of course, you have zero evidence. You just know that rapists are chomping at the bit to dress up as women and hang out in bathrooms so they can rape. Of course they could do this right now, today. But they don't. It really isn't a great rape opportunity. It is a public bathroom. People go in and out all the time.

There is simply no doubt in my mind at this point that you have a huge problem with transgender people.

[Nye Bevan]

173. Why do you say "dress up as women"?

The poll question referred to men accessing women's bathrooms, regardless of how they are dressed.

[Warren Stupidity]

176. Your poll is a shit poll. You made your beliefs quite clear. You are *very concerned*

that if transgender women are allowed (as they are today in many states) to use gender appropriate facilities then "fake" transgender women will use the opportunity to rape women in public bathrooms. Only of course that isn't happening. I don't give a rat's ass about your shit poll.

[Nye Bevan]

182. Polls where DU is pretty much divided 50-50, as this one is,

certainly tend to arouse strong feelings, as your post demonstrates. Thank you for participating in the thread and expressing your viewpoint.

[Warren Stupidity]

185. ignorance on gender issues is widespread.

If your intention was to increase the ignorance you may have been successful.

[CreekDog]

362. a poll about the transgendered use of restrooms only has one option with the word "transgendered"

sounds like a shit poll.

[el_bryanto]

318. What is your evidence for the claim that banning transgendered people from

Woman's Restrooms will reduce the probability of rape. Have there been any studies you would like to cite? Or any evidence at all?

Bryant

[Ed Suspicious]

46. You could or couldn't care less? I could care much less, but I don't.

[qwlauren35]

113. You got me.

Sloppy English. I fixed it.

I could NOT care any less than I do.

[Iggo]

16. Define "biological man."

[backscatter712]

143. It's a TERF/RW-bigot frame that insinuates that trans-women are trying to trick you.

Disgusting expression of bigotry, isn't it?

[Warren Stupidity]

178. exactly.

[Tree-Hugger]

324. +1 nt

[Behind the Aegis]

18. What are "biological men"?

[JustAnotherGen]

37. Thank you - I was wondering too n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

303. Seems we are to receive no answer.

I can guess as to why!

[Travis_0004]

377. I didn't know it was a complicated defination

Biological sex describes our anatomy as female, male, or intersex. It includes our internal and external sex organs, chromosomes, and hormones.

[LeftyMom]

19. A lot of trans people don't ever do bottom surgery.

It's insanely expensive for trans women, and even more expensive and less functional for trans men. And some people hold off because they want a biological family.

And even people with no barriers to transition are expected to live their gender fully before they're approved for surgery.

[Spider Jerusalem]

21. ...

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/20/15-experts-debunk-right-wing-transgender-bathro/198533

[Dont call me Shirley]

22. Those in the process of transformation to their gender should be allowed to use the restroom of

their choice. No papers needed.

Gender neutral restrooms would be best.

[LostOne4Ever]

23. My mother has MS and cannot go to the restroom by herself.

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Further, while she is not obese, she is NOT a small woman either. She is also the only so called "bio-woman" in our family.

What are we to do with her if I am not allowed to escort her to the bathroom? What are anyone in similar situations to do? And if it is okay for me to escort her why is it not okay for other men to use the facilities?

But let us take the idea of prohibiting men from the women's facilities to its more extreme conclusion, and ask ourselves why stop there? If men can't be trusted, despite anti-haassment laws already being in place, why limit this to restrooms?

How about we ban men and women from mingling in theatres? Those places are dark. Or how about Clubs, and bars, and everywhere.Why not follow Saudi Arabia's example?

What is the big deal with AMAB individuals, both cis and trans, using the women's restroom. If they harass anyone in there they will go to jail. If they harass people in the men's loo they will also go to jail. If they are not bothering anyone who cares?

We just need to go unisex on all bathrooms period. But the fact that we can't even get a liberal website to stand behind this idea bodes poorly for the future of trans rights and acceptance.[/font]

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

28. Women have an expectation that the bathroom will be "women only"

Last edited Tue Sep 8, 2015, 06:40 PM - Edit history (1)

and, imo, that includes trans women.

If you enter the women's bathroom to help your mom, all you have to do is loudly announce your appearance. Occasionally, women will change clothes in a public restroom for whatever reason, and may prefer not to do that in a tiny not-very-hygienic stall. They might also be surprised to turn around and see you while wearing only a bra, a thong, and shoes.

[yeoman6987]

115. I'd rather keep bathrooms separate

Mainly because I can get in and out in 3 minutes. I have had too many women friends who have to stand in line for a long time. If transgender want to use chosen bathroom fine but do not close down separate bathrooms.

[woolldog]

285. lol

That's as good a reason as any I've seen in this thread to keep gender segregated restrooms.

[shenmue]

24. Poorly worded poll

[backscatter712]

187. Transphobically framed push-poll.

I don't know why this shit is tolerated here.

[shenmue]

202. I know, I thought the OP wouldn't do that

but she did.

[Lancero]

198. Or intentionally.

Given the doubling down going on in this thread, I really doubt that it was poorly worded.

[Tree-Hugger]

323. Exactly nt

[Vinca]

25. How might you know?

I've never been in a woman's bathroom with open stalls.

[MADem]

27. We need more unisex crappers!

And more "family crappers!"

This was never a big thing when I lived in Japan. You just stuck to your own knitting, you didn't run around trying to look at anyone's "stuff." Pee, poop, be a good citizen and wash those hands, and get the hell outta there.

[mnhtnbb]

30. More US Puritanical prudery.

FFS. Transgendered men using a ladies room in the US are going in a stall.
Who cares? I don't.

And believe me, as a woman I've invaded a men's room at athletic venues because the lines
were too long and there was NOBODY in the men's room.

[WinkyDink]

83. "there was NOBODY in the men's room" kinda makes your point, pointless.

[mnhtnbb]

110. Someone dressed as a woman going in a men's room would be viewed strangely IF

there were men in there.

Anyone dressed as a woman going in a women's room wouldn't be given a second
thought.

[NotoriousRBG]

123. How about a man dressed as a man...

Going into the women's bathroom? He claims to be trans. Is he, or is he a sex offender? How many cases do we see with up-skirt photos taken of vulnerable women?

If a man simply claims to identify as a woman, is that enough to get a free pass and all-access to women's bathroom facilities?

[DirtDart1319]

212. This was my thought

This is the scenario that I thought of when I read the poll. I'm a 40 year old man with little to no modesty so I don't care who walks into the bathroom I'm using. However, If my 14 year old daughter is using the bathroom, I don't want some man walking in on her. He may not have any nefarious intention but why is his comfort level give a higher priority than hers?

[abelenkpe]

33. Women's restrooms have stalls

There is plenty of privacy. No one is peeking through gaps. Seriously who thinks transgender people are peeking through gaps? Do these worried people peek through gaps? Why is this a thing at all?

[Nye Bevan]

35. For me the issue is more one of creepy (not transgender) men going into the women's restroom,

in order to peek into the stalls, or worse. And for these men to take advantage of their legal right to be in the women's restroom which quite a few DUers are advocating (and if necessary, they can claim to "identify as a woman" if they are caught).

[mnhtnbb]

39. Well, perverts have always had the opportunity to go in women's restrooms

and hope they wouldn't be caught. Nothing is going to stop them.

Transgendered men--dressed as women--are not perverts and have every right
to use the women's restroom.

[Nye Bevan]

43. Creepy men are more likely to enter women's restrooms if they are legally allowed to do so,

by pretending that they "identify as a woman", if necessary. I never claimed nor do I believe that genuinely transgender people are "perverts". By the way, you should edit your post as many consider the word "transgendered" (as opposed to "transgender&quot to be offensive.

[Cal Carpenter]

55. I'd like to see the case studies showing this is true

and that it has been happening in places which are more trans-inclusive recently.

But I can't see them. Because they don't exist. Because you are making shit up.

Fucking disgusting.

[uppityperson]

195. Why do you think creepy men are more likely to assault women in restrooms if they are unisex?

This is a serious question, why do you think that will happen?

[pnwmom]

295. Yes, they have -- but the laws have meant they could be arrested for doing so.

The question is how to protect the rights both of transwomen AND cis-woman to feel safe in their restrooms -- safe from sexual assault by cis-men.

[Spider Jerusalem]

41. The issue sounds quite a lot more like transphobia dressed up as "concern"

and if you look at the link in my reply you'll see that the situation you posit is not at all an issue (in point of fact trans women are at much greater risk of physical violence and sexual assault if they're forced to use men's facilities than cis women are from trans women in the ladies' room).

[backscatter712]

170. My thoughts exactly... n/t

[abelenkpe]

48. So the concern is sexual assault? Or violence?

Thats always a concern. As a parent I'm always worried when my kids use a public restroom. And waiting for them to come out of the locker room each day after swim? Pretty sure my heart is getting its own special workout. There are many incidents of transgender kids and adults suffering violence in school and public restrooms. Think we should let them use the bathroom where they feel safest. How to stop those who would take advantage to commit a crime? Don't know, just don't think we should endanger transgender men and women because there are bad people who would take advantage of a situation. You know? Ideally all restrooms and lockers would be safe.

[Cal Carpenter]

50. Who do you think is in more danger?

Women in a restroom in danger from a hypothetical bogeyman,

Or a trans woman being forced to use men's bathrooms?

How many cases of the former can you find - a guy dressing up as a woman to sneak into women's bathrooms to spy or rape or whatever?

How many cases of the latter? Because there are many, and they are tragic, and it doesn't take much googling to learn about it.

Seriously, this is such an old, tired debate based on really weird thinking at BEST, or serious transphobia at worst.

[Starry Messenger]

130. One notices he didn't answer.

+1

[uppityperson]

199. Did you know that how you dress is not an indication of your gender? I am middle aged female in levi

and a flannel shirt over a tshirt and very much identify as female.

[backscatter712]

70. You just used the Klan Fallacy.

http://www.cristanwilliams.com/b/2012/11/04/forces-of-darkness-unite-under-the-klan-fallacy/

While it would be both easy and fun to PWN everyone who’s jumped on the trans restroom meme bandwagon, to do so would miss the real issue here. The issue I’m writing about today is that all 3 of these groups regularly deploy what I’m going to call the ‘Klan Fallacy’ against transwomen. The most recent incarnation of this particular fallacy is the Colleen Francis meme. The central rhetorical weapon the Klan has historically used (and continues to use to this day) is the ‘someone in your group is an asshole; therefore, everyone in your group is a potential asshole’ fallacy. If someone in the black community turns out to be a sick fuck, then the Klan will encourage you to stereotype black people – collectively as a group – as being potential sick fucks. It’s their one-trick pony and if they can con you into viewing black people – collectively as a group – as a possible risk, the process of dehumanization has begun… and for the Klan, that process serves but one goal: segregation.

Likewise, when anti-trans groups deploy the Klan Fallacy, they’re doing so to support their goal of achieving institutionalized segregation of cis and trans folk.

Every time I hear someone burble about how pre-op transwomen should be excluded from a “women’s space” they seem to always use the Klan Fallacy. If a sick fuck turns out to be trans, they claim that in the interest of safety for ciswomen, all transwomen – or at the very least, all pre-op transwomen – should be segregated from ciswomen. They’ll assert that their call for segregation isn’t about bigotry; instead they’ll insist that it’s a simple issue of safety. They just need to segregate the transwomen from the ciswomen because transwomen pose an inherent risk – they’ll even try to point to a case or two in our nation’s history to ‘prove’ that the risk transwomen pose to ciswomen is so great that segregation is the only rational response:

Your bigotry is noted.

[CreekDog]

363. so you're saying that the laws permitting transgendered to use the restroom

will also permit peeking into stalls?

[Cal Carpenter]

47. How about it's none of my business what is in your pants

and if you present as a female you use the women's bathroom. Period. NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

Are you gonna do the genital check? Or ask for medical records? What do you do if someone has a micro-penis? Measure it? Ask for a blood sample so you can do a hormone check? What the fuck.

This question and it's choices are based on a lot of bad ideas.

[Nye Bevan]

51. That would be the first option if you would like to vote in the poll (nt)

[Cal Carpenter]

53. No, it isn't.

Your poll question and choices are framed in a disgusting way and I'm not playing.

[Nye Bevan]

58. Ah, so "none of my business" does not necessarily mean "should be legal" (nt).

[Nye Bevan]

64. As you can see from the poll results, DU is divided almost exactly 50-50 on this issue.

I am not alerting on your post, but I would like to thank you for contributing to the discussion and making it clear which side of the issue you are on.

[Starry Messenger]

74. That just means DU has a lot of, well, we aren't allowed to call them what they are, who don't understand that this is already the law.

"By making sure the scope of nondiscrimination laws and ordinances extend to sexual orientation and gender identity, activists were largely successful in delaying the fight, but it's been avoided rather than won. That means attacks such as these will continue to happen. They will continue to meet some degree of success, given that public opinion still reveals startlingly retrograde views about LGBT people in general. So as long as transgender people are seen as less authentic than cisgender (nontrans) people, the idea of transgender people in public bathrooms will still incite the sort of fear that drives this legislation.

Fortunately, at least in the United States, the impact of these bills will be limited. The Department of Justice has finally engaged, and has now unequivocally said that discrimination on the basis of gender identity, which these bills engage in, is discrimination on the basis of sex under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act. That determination presumably also applies to the Fourteenth Amendment, suggesting that state action to discriminate against transgender people will receive substantial scrutiny from the judiciary."

http://www.advocate.com/commentary/2015/03/18/op-ed-bathrooms-will-be-next-lgbt-rights-battleground

[Spider Jerusalem]

94. You say that like it means anything.

DU is shockingly reactionary on quite a lot of issues, most notably issues related to gender and race (see: just about any thread on feminism or "white privilege", which, outside of protected groups, inevitably turns into a shit show). This probably has something to do with the fact that DU skews mostly old (the median age has been around 50+ on most polls I've seen) and white.

[Nye Bevan]

125. Whoops, forgot the "internet poll" disclaimer.

Sorry.

[LostOne4Ever]

235. It is not fifty-fifty

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]As of writing this there are 22 people abstaining.

We already have some of the people abstaining are doing so because of the word choice of the poll.

It is: [/font]

36% for men and women
7% for requiring documentation
33% for gender segregation
23% abstaining

[Gormy Cuss]

341. You do realize that response distributions in DU polls suffer from self-selection bias, right? n/t

[backscatter712]

134. I urge jury nullification on Cal Carpenter's post... n/t

[Nye Bevan]

159. I concur.

Last edited Tue Sep 8, 2015, 10:32 PM - Edit history (1)

When someone posts "fuck you", it tells everyone far more about them, and the strength of their arguments, than the person it is directed at, and should be left visible for all to see.

[cwydro]

316. I know. I don't understand why people have to cuss at others if they disagree.

Apparently they don't realize it actually detracts from their statement.

[Warren Stupidity]

169. I second this. The overt bigotry on display here is horrendous.

[Zorra]

243. You are officially due beer and travel money, and many experiences. nt

[uppityperson]

201. No, it isn't. Your first option is "Biological men" which is far different and as of yet, undefined

[randys1]

60. #5 Americans should grow up about sex.

and stop asking questions betraying their immaturity about sex

[Nye Bevan]

62. Is this really only a US issue?

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015/02/25/trans-rights-bill-amendment-would-bar-trans-people-from-public-washrooms.html

[randys1]

63. Americans should grow up about sex.

And stop finding reasons to be fearful of transgender folks

and bigoted

Like everything else, eventually this will be a non issue as humans evolve, mature.

[gollygee]

65. Poorly worded

I don't care what biological parts someone has. If someone is transgender, they need to use the restroom that they're most comfortable with. They don't need anyone checking. People just need to grow up and not worry about it so much. We don't check people's ID before we let them into the men's room or women's room now. I don't know why giving transgender people freedom would change how things work. People can figure out on their own which restroom they belong in.

I am not in favor of unisex restrooms, but transgender women are in more danger in the men's room than I am in a unisex restroom, so I'd err on the side of transgender people. But there is an increased risk of sexual assualt if men are in women's rooms, so I'd rather cis men stay in their restroom, cis women stay in theirs, transgender people go to whichever they identify with and/or feel comfortable in, and that we have unisex/family restrooms available places as well for people not comfortable with either choice or who need to help family members.

[backscatter712]

68. We're not talking about men. We're talking about trans-women.

You're deliberately conflating the two.

[Nye Bevan]

73. Well, to be fair, it is my OP and that was my poll question (nt)

[backscatter712]

75. Yeah, and your framing is fucking bullshit. n/t

[Nye Bevan]

78. I'm sorry that you didn't like the wording of my poll (nt)

[backscatter712]

81. And I'm not sorry for calling out your bullshit. n/t

[Nye Bevan]

85. I appreciate your contribution to the discussion. I certainly don't need an apology.

As you can see from the poll, DU is divided right down the middle on this issue, and there are strong feelings on both sides.

[backscatter712]

131. And half our country is infatuated with Donald Trump.

Popular bullshit is still bullshit. And it stinks to high heaven.

[Ms. Toad]

180. Polls like this are called push polls for a reason.

Try asking a question that isn't intentionally worded to generate fear when you're asking about whether women should be allowed to use the women's bathroom.

[Nye Bevan]

186. Hmmm. I didn't use the word "rape", the word "attack" or even the word "assault",

in the poll question. I tried to keep it as neutral as possible.

[Ms. Toad]

200. Calling transwomen "biological men," which your second question expressly does,

is nowhere close to neutral. It is offensive. Transwomen are not men. Period. Clever wording to work the word "men" into the question that is expressly about transwomen using the women's bathroom is as offensive as refusing to use the pronouns or name you are asked to use.

Suggesting that the goal is to let men into the women's restroom, without restriction, (as your first question does) is an intentional fearmongering tactic (especially combined with your express suggestions below the OP that allowing transwomen to use the women's bathroom will let men get away with rape).

Letting women use the women's room is not an invitation to rape. In contraxt, forcing transwomen to use the men's restroom subjects an already vulnerable population to extreme risk of violence.

[PeaceNikki]

317. Under 50 participants IS NOT HALF OF DU.

[Arugula Latte]

95. I agree about the bullshit framing. Frankly I'm not surprised, though.

[bettyellen]

242. Ditto on the bullshit framing AND not one bit surprised either. Polls like this make DU suck.

[eggplant]

371. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Wed Sep 9, 2015, 04:26 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Do you think any man should legally be allowed to enter a woman's restroom if he chooses?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7151220

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Subject line uses right wing talking points, equating transgender accommodations with allowing men to use women's restrooms. I say right wing because:

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/20/15-experts-debunk-right-wing-transgender-bathro/198533

http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/blog/index.blog/2355965/cns-helps-antidiscrimination-foes-advance-transgender-bathroom-myth/

And even giving the OP benefit of the doubt and assuming good faith, this question is just plain, worthless trolling.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Sep 9, 2015, 04:33 PM, and the Jury voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This guy should have been banned a long time ago. His stupid poll makes DU suck.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: My first inclination was to hide it because "any" man certainly should not be free to enter ladies' restrooms but after thinking about it I wanted to hear what DU members have to say — whether exceptions need to be made for transgender people.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The OP is a horrible piece of shit. The point this person is trying to make is over-the-top offensive. I'm voting to leave the post here, though. It isn't any worse than the OP was. Public shaming is much more appropriate in this case.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree that it is right wing crap.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Worthless trolling is right! Where are the administrators?
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[gollygee]

72. I don't think cis men should go into a women's room without announcing and

warning those inside, and/or accompanying a woman or girl.

I am not concerned about transgender women or transgender men in the women's room at all. They know where they belong.

I certainly don't think people should have to be checked in any way before going in. No one is checked now. Men could go in if they wanted. They don't seem to do that, unless they are accompanying a woman or girl and/or announce themselves. I think we should keep things exactly how they are except that we should give transgender people a huge break and the benefit of the doubt and just leave them alone to go potty where they want.

[Nye Bevan]

76. Let's try this. Say a non-transgender man uses the lady's room at a highway rest stop every day,

for his own weird reasons. Several women complain to the police. Should it be possible for this man to be prosecuted if he continues to use the lady's room?

[WinkyDink]

84. Yes. It's called "being a Peeping Tom".

[backscatter712]

67. Trans-women should not be subjected to a crotch-search to be allowed to go in a bathroom and pee.

For fucks sake, they're just going into a stall, closing the door, and doing their business.

Leave them the fuck alone!

[Nye Bevan]

82. I agree with every word of your post (nt)

[trueblue2007]

71. MEN have No Business in a woman's restroom and Visa Versa

I would not just go roaming into the Men's rest room.....

Women deserve privacy.

[backscatter712]

79. My next question: Allowing TERFs on a Democratic message board.

Why is the Westboro Baptist Church of feminism allowed to spread their toxic bullshit here?

[Spider Jerusalem]

86. Relevant:

[Tree-Hugger]

135. I love this cartoon.

Sums up a lot of what I have been seeing among acquaintances recently. I just ended a friendship after discovering she was a big time TERF. They sound so much like right wingers, but claim they are "progressive."

[LostOne4Ever]

89. A very good question indeed! nt

[Nye Bevan]

90. Because DU juries choose to allow it?

I had to Google "TERF", by the way

[backscatter712]

98. For those who don't know, TERF = Trans-Exclusionary Reactionary Feminist.

In other words, feminists who hate trans people, especially trans women.

Or as I prefer to call them, bigots.

On the net, TERFs have been known to doxx trans-women, call their employers and doctors to get them fired or deprived of medical care and hormone therapy, harass them on the Internet, etc.

This is Cathy Brennan, one of the most notorious TERFs. Not a nice person.


In the past, Cathy Brennan teamed up with the Pacific-Justice Institute, a right-wing anti-trans hate group, which has done things like harassing trans teens until they were suicidal. Really nasty piece of work.

[Tree-Hugger]

138. I have had quite an education

....about TERFs this year. They haven't been on my radar for most of my life, but I had to misfortune of being introduced to this mindset recently and it makes me sick. I have seen otherwise intelligent (so I thought) people get infected with this TERF disease. They are disgusting people.

[geek tragedy]

93. There are no TERFs here. The OP is not a radical feminist.

Note: "radical feminist" does not mean "transphobe."

I suggest you leave the resentful bashing of "radical feminists" to the Catholic Church.

[Spider Jerusalem]

97. There are plenty of TERFs here (not necessarily in this thread, perhaps)

but definitely in this forum, generally. (And no, "radical feminist" does not necessarily mean "transphobe", hence "trans-exclusionary" as a descriptor.)

[geek tragedy]

104. the only transphobic stuff I've seen have been from those who are generally not aligned

with the radical feminists here.

There used to be a TERF issue here. But there's a lot of people (usually guys who really like their porn) who don't like outspoken feminists who try to use trans people as a cudgel against them.

[Spider Jerusalem]

108. Then you haven't seen the same things I have, but I can assure you they're here.

I could even post links, but I won't because I don't want to fall foul of the rules on calling people out.

[geek tragedy]

109. you can PM, I'd be interested to see

[gollygee]

117. I think I know who the previous poster is talking about

And I think she's a feminist but I don't know if she's a radical feminist. I don't think so, but I could be wrong. It certainly isn't a common thing here. There are anti-trans people but not from the feminism groups.

[Starry Messenger]

107. The James Dobson wing of the party is sure getting an airing here today, ain't they?

[Codeine]

121. An altogether better question. nt

[sagat]

87. Hell no.

Don't want my mom or (hypothetical) daughter sharing a bathroom with a man.

[mainer]

92. If *HE* is dressed as a woman, I'll let him come in

If he's dressed as a man, no way.

[woolldog]

287. Doesn't such an approach simply

reinforce sex stereotypes? ie, men are supposed to dress masculine and women feminine?

[davidn3600]

100. Sex-Segregated Public Restrooms Are an Outdated Relic of Victorian Paternalism

It's easy to think of the push for gender-neutral public restrooms as an issue that matters only to transgender people—after all, they're the ones left holding their bladders when the stress of constantly using the "wrong" bathroom gets to be too much. But as a straight man, gender-neutral bathrooms matter a lot to me, too—in part because I want the trans community to enjoy the same privileges I do, but also because nothing irks me more than seeing a long line snake out from the women's room while the men's room sits vacant, or vice versa. This affront to queuing theory and common sense is never more irksome than when the bathrooms in question serve just one person at a time. In such spaces, the concepts of a "men's room" and a "women's room" are completely imaginary; the room belongs to whoever is in it, although that philosophy didn't impress the two older women waiting for me when I exited "their" one-toilet restroom at a McDonald's last summer, nor did it stay the manager they'd convinced to escort me Big Mac-lessly to the parking lot.

The world is full of people who agree with my elderly antagonists; most recently they've challenged "potty parity" movements at Wesleyan University and the University of Massachusetts Amherst, and also in cities like Washington, D.C., which mandated in 2006 that all single-occupancy public bathrooms be labeled as unisex and recently stepped up its enforcement efforts with a Twitter campaign to report violators. Opponents often complain that unisex toilets take facilities away from men and women and hand them over to the transgender minority, when in fact they are available to everyone. Yet the law often takes the narrower view: Many states follow the guidelines laid out in the Uniform Plumbing Code, which stipulates that “separate toilet facilities shall be provided for each sex,” with exceptions for very small businesses as measured in square footage and/or customer traffic. In the eyes of the law in these places, a business with two unisex toilets can be considered to have no toilets at all, since neither facility explicitly serves men or women.

Such laws date back to 1887, according to Terry S. Kogan, a University of Utah law professor and a contributor to the book Toilet: Public Restrooms and the Politics of Sharing. One hundred and twenty-seven years ago, Massachusetts passed the first law mandating gender-segregated toilets, and many states quickly followed suit. Many of those laws have never been substantially modified, with obvious exceptions in progressive enclaves like D.C. and San Francisco, meaning that much of the United States' toilet-related building codes reflect a literally Victorian prudishness that we might mock in other contexts.

These laws arose due to a confluence of several disparate contemporary movements, Kogan explains in Toilet. The centralization of labor in factories led to the centralization of human waste at work sites, which was carried away by recently developed plumbing technology that had itself been invented in response the newly realized germ theory of disease and the consequent sudden push to improve sanitation. Women's growing presence in the factory workforce, and in public life more generally, triggered a paternalistic impulse to "protect" women from the full force of the world outside their homes, which manifested itself architecturally in a bizarro parallel world of spaces for women adjacent to but separate from men's—ladies' reading rooms at libraries, parlors at department stores, separate entrances at post offices and banks, and their own car on trains, intentionally placed at the very end so that male passengers could chivalrously bear the brunt in the event of a collision. The leap from parlors and reading rooms to ladies-only restrooms was not hard to make, although Kogan admits that "it is not at all obvious what led regulators to conclude that separating factory toilet facilities by sex would protect working women." His research suggests that sex segregation was seen by regulators at the time as "a kind of cure-all" for the era's social anxiety about working women.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/04/11/sex_segregated_public_restrooms_an_outdated_relic_of_victorian_paternalism.html

[tammywammy]

116. I agree!

We have stalls, I don't care who's in the stall next to me. I can understand men not wanting women in the men's restroom if there are urinals out in the open.

The only "concern" I've ever heard is its an open invite to men that are predators, but nothing stops a rapist from walking into a woman's restroom now.

[Nye Bevan]

128. A rapist is more likely to walk into a woman's restroom if he knows he cannot be arrested

for being there.

And under the law that some here advocate, no man could ever be arrested for being in a woman's restroom because he could simply claim that he identified as a woman. I have no concerns at all about genuine transgender folks being in whichever restroom they want; to me the issue is creeps and rapists exploiting a well-meaning relaxation of the law.

[tammywammy]

141. Someone that already has ill intentions is going to do it regardless. n/t

[uppityperson]

232. Why would you think that? What proof of any sort do you have of that?

A rapist can be arrested anywhere, women's restroom, someone's kitchen, even a church.

[notadmblnd]

103. as long as they use a stall and don't request those smelly urinals

I'm ok with it. God knows I've helped myself to the men's room on many occasion with nary a complaint from a one of them.

[yardwork]

114. The results of the poll are sad and uninformed.

There are lots of "biological males" who look just like women because they identify as women. They have absolutely no interest in harming anybody. They themselves are often victims of assault.

Nor should they have to "carry papers."

For God's sake.

[Warren Stupidity]

181. I thought perhaps an armband so that the gender police could clearly identify them.

[backscatter712]

184. Yeah, a piece of flair that they'd be required to wear on their clothing...

I think I've seen this movie before. Didn't like the ending...

[geardaddy]

364. How about a yellow penis on their clothes

That should satisfy the transphobic.

[blogslut]

120. Are you kidding me with this?

[Nye Bevan]

122. I'm guessing that you disagree with 50% of DU on this issue? (nt)

[blogslut]

124. Oh, child.

Bless your heart.

[Nye Bevan]

126. .

[backscatter712]

137. Or as the Irish these days might say...

Do you get invited to many parties?

[mainer]

127. I think the real issue is women feeling vulnerable to sexual assault

If a man can corner us in the restroom, there's no one else around to help us.

If a man is dressed as a woman, we won't do genital checks. We just assume he identifies as a woman and is OK.

[backscatter712]

132. And that's why trans-women shouldn't be forced to use the men's room.

As pointed out earlier in this thread, trans-women have a high risk of being assaulted when they have to use the men's room instead of the restroom that corresponds with their identity.

[PatrickforO]

133. This poll doesn't seem to hit the issue of transgender very fully.

The question 'should biological men...' is misleading because I am a biological man but am not transgender.

The middle one is what we need to get at. If someone is transitioning M to F, that means that a) they believe down to the core of their being that they were born in the wrong body, and b) if they ultimately want gender reassignment surgery, they have to live as the desired gender for at least one year; this includes taking hormones, name change, clothing, work, everything - all aspects of their lives, INCLUDING the public restroom.

As to whether I, a non-trans biological male should be allowed to go into a women's restroom and use one of the stalls, not so much.

[Nye Bevan]

145. I was expecting the middle choice to get the most votes.

I want to be accommodative of transgender people but I don't want to let male creeps and perverts (not transgender) to be able to easily take advantage of this to be able to prey on women.

[gollygee]

147. Creeps have hidden in women's rooms before

Why do you think women go to the bathroom in groups?

[Nye Bevan]

150. Remember this dude?

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3562103

I just don't want our willingness to be accommodative of transgender people to make it easier for this kind of person to get his thrills.

[gollygee]

155. I don't think it'll make any difference at all

There are creeps out there. We know that. We are in danger from creeps when we go to our cars, go from our cars to destinations, walking around outside, even in our own homes. The women's room has never been a sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. I don't see how allowing transgender people to pee where they want is going to make us even less safe. It'll be just like it is, and we'll keep going to the bathroom in groups.

[Nye Bevan]

172. If you don't think that any creeps would be emboldened by being legally allowed in the ladys room,

because they know that if challenged they can claim to "identify as a woman" and get away with it, then you have a higher opinion of men than I do.

[uppityperson]

238. I am really confused why you continue this line

of being afraid of more crime in restrooms if they were unisex. You have shown no proof of it happening, yet continue to say you fear it.
"thou doth protest too much" sort of thing.

Why have you not given any sort proof, just your fears.

[PatrickforO]

149. Oh. Well, I'd have voted the middle one!

Isn't it strange how issues like 'what bathroom will the person use?' are inflated out of this world. I mean, in a public restroom, you go in, do your business, wash your hands (hopefully!) and then leave. To me it just doesn't matter if the person who is in there with me in the next stall is a F to M transgender person or not. We need to be sensitive toward each other, and respect people for who they are.

[Nye Bevan]

154. As a men, I selfishly would not give a shit who's in there with me.

I'm more concerned about the impact on women (including my wife and daughters).

[PatrickforO]

158. Well, I have a wife and daughters too, and soon will have a grand daughter.

If someone is trans, it means just that. They identify with that sex rather than their biological one. I don't think it would a big deal for them, either.

I mean, in Europe they have unisex bathrooms anyway, and in most you have to pay because they aren't quite public.

[Nye Bevan]

160. Again, I am not the slightest bit concerned about transgender people.

I'm concerned about creeps who are emboldened to enter women's restrooms by newly accommodative policies.

[PatrickforO]

165. Oh! I get it now. Sorry for being dense.

You are worried that some hetero male creep will pretend he's transgender and go into the women's restroom to peep!

Do you think that will really become a problem? I mean, it might - you never know what someone's gonna do. If that happened and my wife or daughters were in there, the creep would pull back a stub, I know that...because none of them take that kind of shit. They all know, as women, that even though they were raised to always be 'nice,' they definitely DO NOT have to be nice in a situation like that.

[Goblinmonger]

211. How paternalistic of you.

Women should sleep more soundly knowing you are there to protect them.

[Nye Bevan]

215. Yes, having daughters has made me more paternalistic.

Really strange, I don't understand it at all.

[Goblinmonger]

218. I have a daughter

She's a very strong woman. She doesn't need any paternalistic bullshit from me. Just love.

[Ed Suspicious]

250. +1

Paternalism in regards to 10 year old kids is not a fault, it's a feature.

[Ms. Toad]

188. Are you seriously not aware of how many transwomen

have no access to transition care? I guess only the portion of the trans community that is wealthy enough to be able to afford a year of therapy (required by at least some medical providers), and expensive hormones get to pee in the bathroom that matches their gender. The poor ones will have to risk violence and rape as a woman using the men's room.

http://www.hrc.org/resources/entry/a-national-crisis-anti-transgender-violence

Please educate yourself about the economics of being a transwoman, and about the violence (including rape and murder) that these women are subjected to every day - and stop calling them biological men.

I hope you'll self-delete your push poll and offensive thread.

[Nye Bevan]

191. With almost 200 responses, DU divided 50-50 and a vigorous, lively debate?

Self-delete would be doing the community a disservice, but you are more than welcome to use the "trash thread" feature which (from your point of view) would achieve the same outcome.

[Ms. Toad]

203. So if I put an intentionally racist push poll up,

that offers NO non-racist options, and half of the people responding decide to choose one or the other of the racist options - and it generates a lively debate (much of which condemns the racism inherent in my poll question), that's good for DU?

Garbage like your poll, and your comments in this thread, are extremely hurtful to trans individuals - and those of us who love them. It should no more be welcome on DU than the hypothetical racist poll I suggested.

[Nye Bevan]

206. I have made it abundantly clear that I have no issue with genuine transgender people.

My issue is with the risk of predatory, non-transgender males exploiting transgender-friendly access rules. Like Christopher Hambrook did.

http://m.torontosun.com/2014/02/26/predator-who-claimed-to-be-transgender-declared-dangerous-offender

[Ms. Toad]

282. Then why did you not put a single option in your poll

which was supportive of transgender women using the women's bathroom.

(As I have made abundantly clear, Option #2 is NOT supportive of transgender women. Any statement which refers to transwomen as men is inherently offensive.)

I say this as a white woman who was raped by a black man, and as someone who took refuge in a public restroom immediately afterward because I needed to be in a place without men: Using a single case of a male with a history of predatory behavior against vulnerable women who, in addition to his compulsive predatory behavior, masqueraded as a transgender woman, to justify your transphobic poll, is like using isolated incidents of black men raping white women to demand segregation.

[Jamastiene]

349. DU is not divided 50-50.

Those who voted in your push poll seem to be split several ways, still not 50-50. Where are you getting that DU is divided 50-50?

[uppityperson]

236. Who do you know that carries "medical documentation of being transgender" around with them?

Who would they show it to?

[jeff47]

331. Yes, we can make transsexuals wear something on their clothes to prove they are.

That sounds vaguely familiar.....

[HereSince1628]

136. As long as they don't pee on the seat, I don't get the problem

I thought most women's restrooms have stalls with doors.

Now letting a biological woman in a mens restroom could be a problem. There aren't always dividers let alone doors.

Who want's to have a cougar eyeing the lizard?

[ileus]

139. I've often wondered if anyone here has kids...

I'd rather my 13yo daughter not have to go into a station where truck drivers are.

I'd rather my 10yo son not have to go into a station full of females.


Maybe I'm wrong...



*station = restroom

[Ms. Toad]

146. The question is not whether men (however you label them)

should be permitted in women's restrooms, it is whether trans women (who do NOT identify as male) should be permitted to use the bathroom that matches their gender.

The portion of the trans community that has (or has the means to obtain) medical documentation that they are transgender is far less than 100%. What you are suggesting as a gateway privileges trans women with access to money over those without. Trans women are disproportionately poorer than pretty much any other population and many can never afford formal medical assistance to transition. Not to mention that there is a sizeable portion of the population that chooses not to physically transition.

It is offensive to suggest that trans women should be required to buy their way into the gender appropriate bathroom.

[Warren Stupidity]

171. the transphobic poster of this transphobic poll knows that and thinks he is being cute

and clever. He isn't. He is displaying overt transphobia.

[Nye Bevan]

177. Do you consider all the DUers who chose option 3 in the poll to be transphobic? (nt)

[Warren Stupidity]

179. I consider your position here on this issue to be one of overt transphobic bigotry.

Is that clear?

[Nye Bevan]

183. Again, thanks for sharing your feelings on this issue (nt)

[JackInGreen]

153. Unisex shitters for all

Eom

[prayin4rain]

156. A person who is psychologically or physically a woman should use the

women's restroom because they're women.

People who are physically and psychologically men, should not be in the women's restroom.

If predators begin using it and the incidences of women being raped in the bathroom increases, then we'll have to figure out what to do about it.

It's obviously a shame that rapists exist, but we can't discriminate against trans women because of rapists. I think statistically trans women are in as much danger of such attacks, if not more, than other women.

[Maedhros]

174. I would think that incidents of trans-women assaulting cis-women would be very rare.

You bring up a very good point: we don't blame the victim for the actions of a rapist, we shouldn't hold transgender persons accountable for the actions of rapists either.

[prayin4rain]

197. Oh, I totally agree.

I meant predators pretending to be trans women. IF that started to be a problem, we'd have to deal with it. Big if. And in the meantime we can't penalize trans women and expose them to danger because of the same bad people who are a danger to both cis and trans women.

[Warren Stupidity]

161. Your question is transphobic.

Might I suggest you grow a bit on this issue?

[Heeeeers Johnny]

168. For all the women here that are fine with this

You do realize that men in general have a tendency to either...

A: Leave the toilet seat up.
B: Piss all over the toilet seat.

I'm all for transgendered equality, but it comes at a cost.

[Tree-Hugger]

216. So do women

You will find urine all over seats, bloody tampons in bowls, and giant deuces clogging pipes in women's rooms. Women can be gross, too.

[geardaddy]

365. LOL @ "deuces"

[uppityperson]

240. Having been a janitor, both men and women are slobs in toilets.

Having been a person, I can not count the number of times I have sat on a toilet seat in a women's only facility and had the seat be wet because the last person hovered and did not clean up after herself. And the amount of little bits of toilet paper on the floor after that piece tears off to small and the woman drops it? Makes a real mess.

[Travis_0004]

264. I would assume most use the urinal, and as such the toilets are cleaner.

[WillowTree]

284. I don't know how to break this to you, but there are no urinals in a women's restroom.

Or are you suggesting that there should be and women should have to use restrooms where men are lined up at a row of urinals? 'Cause I'm pretty sure the percentage of women who would find that concept unacceptable to be fairly high.

[bullwinkle428]

189. "YOU VANT TO TAKE DUMP?? VERE ARE YOUR PAPERS??"

Bullshit to that! Option #1 for me.

[Starry Messenger]

194. Conservatives Use "Bathroom Panic" To Defeat Transgender Non-Discrimination Laws

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/03/20/15-experts-debunk-right-wing-transgender-bathro/198533

"Conservative Media Outlets Have Promoted Bogus Bathroom Stories. Numerous conservative media outlets, including The Daily Caller, WND, and the Media Research Center, have similarly promoted the myth that sexual predators will exploit trans-inclusive restrooms to prey upon women. [Equality Matters, 8/19/13, 8/22/13, 2/3/14]"

So, your friends. That's all on you.

Here is the kind of thing promoting trans fear causes. Congrats.

http://www.kctv5.com/story/29806858/transgender-woman-killed-after-being-run-over-multiple-times

"Tamara Dominguez, 36, was hit by a truck early Saturday morning, then driven over by that truck again and again.

Though police can't confirm Dominguez' murder was a hate crime, members of the Kansas City transgender community told us they are often fearful and the hate is real.

"There's this horrible dark underbelly of hatred that goes on and on and on and on and it must stop," said Caroline Gibbs with the Transgender Institute of Kansas City.

Gibbs is the institute's founder and director. She says people are often misinformed.

"They don't understand transgender for starters. They don't understand that it is a medical condition that one is born with," Gibbs commented."

[Nevernose]

204. In France there are unisex restrooms

At places built in the 70s, at least, including Dauphine University.

Everyone goes in the same bathroom. They wash their hands at the same sink. But -- and here's the kicker -- the stalls have doors and are private. Not like at a restaurant, but large, twenty or thirty stall restrooms In my experience, it's mostly North Americans that have stalls that anyone can peek through the sides of the doors. Why build two sets of things when one set will do?

I realize that the OP specifically excludes non-private stalls. However, I think that the reason we don't have them is that Americans are too prudish and are afraid someone might do something "bad" in the stall. I don't care what people do in the bathroom stall, but we live in a country where people are obsessed with what people do in their own bedrooms, so what do I know?

[Gormy Cuss]

208. Gendered bathrooms aren't necessary.

Perhaps the solution is to stop pretending that men and women need separate spaces in the first place.

[Nye Bevan]

210. How about we relabel the bathrooms on the NJ Turnpike rest stops as "bathroom 1" and "bathroom 2",

each open to everyone, and see how receptive folks (especially women) are to this concept?

[Gormy Cuss]

220. Why do you think women wouldn't be receptive to this concept?

I know a lot of men who would be happy to rid bathrooms of the urinal troughs in favor of stalls.

[Nye Bevan]

222. Outside of Wrigley Field I haven't seen "troughs" in at least 25 years (nt)

[Gormy Cuss]

225. And that anecdote means what, exactly?

That most multi-stall men's rooms look exactly like women's rooms and converting them to gender-neutral spaces is just a matter of re-configuring the stall walls?

[bullwinkle428]

241. Then you haven't been to the First Avenue club in Minneapolis.

They still exist there to this day.

[backscatter712]

248. There are still a few places...

...like old dive bars, for example, that still have facilities like this.

[geardaddy]

367. And the CC Club and Lyle's and the State Fair

Shit, it's mostly troughs here in this town.

[backscatter712]

214. And because in one case, a black man assaulted a white woman...

...that justifies whites-only schools, bus sections, and restaurants.

Hey, it's the same logic you used...

[Nye Bevan]

217. Not sure single-sex restrooms are analogous to whites-only schools.

Pretty sure we won't be seeing the 101st Airborne de-single-sexifying restrooms anywhere.

[LostOne4Ever]

237. And we have a winner!!![n/t]

[Spider Jerusalem]

226. Congratulations, exhaustive Googling has found you a single instance...

of a sexual predator claiming to be a trans woman (importantly, and very badly for your argument, in womens' shelters, not in public toilets; if there's anywhere that there is in fact probably a place to verify someone's transgender status, either with a letter from a psychologust/psychiatrist/physician or evidence of ongoing hormone treatment and so on, one would think that an environment like a women's shelter would be a lot more appropriate for it than a public toilet).

[Nye Bevan]

229. A letter from a psychiatrist is actually a good idea,

as evidence of being a genuine transgender person. Thank you for that suggestion.

[Spider Jerusalem]

233. You seem to be amazingly ignorant

transgender people who undergo hormone replacement therapy for gender transition are generally required to have a psychological screening and a determination of gender dysphoria/idetity disorder prior to transition; without that they won't be prescribed hormones, won't be put on a waiting list for any surgery, etc. Were you not aware of this? Do you not know anything about the subject? If not, you should just shut up until you do actually know enough to even have an opinion.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

313. It's just the usual trolling. Nothing more. nt

[Tree-Hugger]

224. Biological men

....should use the bathroom that matches their gender identity.

The concern that cis-hetero predators will harm women because transgender people are allowed to use bathrooms that match their gender identity is ludicrous.

[hexola]

227. Its called a "Urinal" if you have penis...use it.

And the same principle should apply to taking dump.

I've been traveling a lot lately - on the highway/turnpikes - why not just use the "Family" restroom - which seems to expect both sexes...or whatever. They seem to be omnipresent - so lets not ignore that option.

[hexola]

228. Head Games...

[hexola]

244. Is there no such thing as Heterophobia? (nt)

[Humanist_Activist]

297. No there isn't. Its homophobic bullshit similar to "reverse racism". n/t

[shenmue]

305. No.

[yuiyoshida]

247. I don't know how I feel about this

Honestly.

[CreekDog]

252. tired of offending the usual groups?

going after some other outnumbered group here?

[Nye Bevan]

256. Would DU be a better and more interesting place if nobody was ever offended?

If every thread was like "Donald Trump sucks" or "Fuck Dick Cheney" would you keep coming back to the site and take the time to click on a thread and to post in it, as you did in this one, then wait for a reply to your post and respond to the reply, as you will to this one?

[uppityperson]

261. No. DU would be a better place without transphobia or homophobic posts.

Also without racist and sexist posts too. Making it simple, DU would be better without bigoted posts.

[Nye Bevan]

265. Perhaps we could have some kind of "jury system"

where juries of DUers would be empowered to hide such bigoted posts. Just a thought.

[uppityperson]

276. What post of yours was hidden in the last 90 days? I am sincerely curious, if you'd link it.

Thank you.

[Nye Bevan]

279. (Trigger warning) it was a somewhat facetious remark about "microaggressions" and "trigger warnings".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7130964

Of course I think it was a terrible hide but just as everyone in prison claims to be innocent all DUers with a hidden post maintain that it was a bullshit hide.

[Snobblevitch]

254. Frankly,

I think anyone with their 'equipment' still intact (Caitlin Jenner) should use the facilities with which they are still attached.

[uppityperson]

259. My genitals are not attached to a facility. Are yours?

Or do you mean you want transgender women to use the men's toilet until when or if they have their penis and testes removed? And what, transgender men use the women's until they have their uterus, ovaries, labia removed? What are you saying here, please clarify, thank you.

[Starry Messenger]

298. Why?

Do you not share a bathroom at home with others of other genders or plumbing? I don't get this. Pee and poop are pee and poop. Trans women aren't in the public loo to network.

[justiceischeap]

340. I second the "Why?"

What is the issue? If this is the case, then small boys should not be allowed to accompany their mothers' into public bathrooms 'cause they too have their "equipment" intact. However, as an adult, I can say (and type) penis. They have penis'. The horror.

Should we also have public bathrooms for sexual orientation and different races? How about different religions?

[Snobblevitch]

366. I was attempting sarcasm at the expense of Jenner.

I guess it didn't work.

[svpadgham]

255. I don't care who poops where.

Just do a courtesy flush.

[ibegurpard]

258. And how do you determine this?

Checking people's junk before they enter the restroom?
What the fuck people?
Separate restrooms don't protect anyone from predators.
I'm not going to go into the women's room but a transgender woman should be able to do so.

[Nye Bevan]

262. A DUer upthread suggested that a psychiatrist's letter could serve as documentation.

Possibly true transgender people could be issued a card verifying their status in order to avoid misunderstandings. The idea is to not enable some random creep to use "oh, I identify as female" to get off the hook when caught prowling in a ladys' room.

[ibegurpard]

268. Are you seriously suggesting we check papers

to use the fucking restrooms???

[Nye Bevan]

272. No. (nt)

[backscatter712]

270. Papers please?

Does this mean we need bathroom cops everywhere, and anytime a person who's not gender-conforming needs to take a piss, that person needs to present his/her/zir bathroom license to the bathroom cop?

That is truly fucked up.

[Nye Bevan]

277. No. But if a woman complains to a cop or security guard about a man in the women's restroom,

should the cop just take the person's word for it if transgender status is claimed?

[Ms. Toad]

288. If a woman complains about a person behaving inappropriately in the women's restroom,

That person, regardless of gender, should be removed.

The vast majority of complaints about men in women's restrooms are made against gender-noncoforming women.

The vast majority of violence against individuals in public bathrooms is against transgender or gender-nonconforming individuals.

Transgender people experience high levels of discrimination and harassment when trying to use public bathrooms. Of the respondents:

68% reported verbal harassment, which in some cases, involved the police being called
18% of respondents reported they were denied access to a restroom
9% were physically assaulted. In some instances, this included being forcibly removed from the restroom and even sexually assaulted

http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Herman-Gendered-Restrooms-and-Minority-Stress-June-2013.pdf

For many transgender people, entering a gender-specific bathroom can be a source of stress and anxiety, because using the restroom can mean very real health and safety concerns. Harassment of trans people in and around gender-specific bathrooms can range from denial of use to police intervention to verbal threats and physical assault. In 2011, the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the National Center for Trans Equality released the National Transgender Discrimination Survey, a first-of-its-kind report surveying over 6,000 transgender people in the United States. Over half of the participants reported experiencing harassment in public accommodations (bathrooms, restaurants, hotels, etc.) and 10% reported being physically attacked. Many trans people – especially trans women of color – face extreme levels of violence when simply using the restroom. Jalissa Griffin shares some of her story here.

http://www.basicrights.org/news/trans-justice-news/trans-and-gender-non-conforming-people-bathrooms-and-attacks-on-our-community/

It is not women who are at risk, it is transgender individuals - regardless of which bathroom they use, but especially if they are forced to use the bathroom that does not match their gender.

Stop using DU as a platform to fearmonger and perpetuate discrimination against transgender individuals.

[Spider Jerusalem]

290. I did not, in fact, suggest that

not for people who need to use the toilet, anyway (access to a women's shelter is a different thing). I'll thank you to not put words into my mouth.

I'm expecting you to suggest that we should make transgender people wear distinctive yellow patches on their clothing, next.

[vkkv]

369. I'm going to be rude here. WARNING! Don't read the text Nye, you will likley be offended.

You are an FUCKING IDIOT.

Yes, Issue ID Cards! Sort of like... um.. mandatory Star Of Davids?

Do you really think some randum creep is going to DRESS IN DRAG just to catch a peek in the ladies room?
Perhaps that is how you get in??

[hexola]

275. Im confused...by excremental discrimination

The problem here is public restrooms are inherently discriminatory to men...

We have stalls (for pooping) - and urinals (for peeing)...

"women's" restrooms have only stalls (to my knowledge in the US...I've heard its different abroad)

Its really - not sexual...its all excremental discrimination!

[tandot]

273. How about getting rid of the gaps?

There is a huge difference between American restrooms and European ... If you enclose each stall to secure privacy, nobody would give a shit ... Actually ... Most transgendered people just have to go pee ... They could care less about who is shitting next to them ... Can we please get over it?

[lonestarnot]

291. How is this going to be determined?

A perv peaking through cracks of doors could come in any package and shouldn't be allowed to be in public.

[Egnever]

296. I couldn't care less

Man woman biological or just walking into the wrong bathroom on accident.

Could not care less.

[marmar]

299. Push poll much?

[Nye Bevan]

315. No, "push poll" does not mean "poll whose results I don't like

so I'm going to call it a push poll".

[dilby]

306. If a transgender woman wants to use a restroom who cares what is between her legs?

Seriously, get over it, in most cases you won't even know unless you are the one peeking into stalls to make sure everyone who sits down to pee has a vagina.

[Orrex]

311. Nuke the site from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

[liberal N proud]

314. There is always a line at the womens restrooms

Why would I as a man want to stand in that endless line?

[morningfog]

319. You are a real piece of work, Nye.

This is offensive bullshit. You should self delete, but of course you won't. You'll double down because that's the kind of you are.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

320. why is 'i am an asshole' not a response option?

that would be the correct response option to this poll.

[Nye Bevan]

321. Anyone who believes themself to be an asshole is welcome to post that in the thread (nt)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

322. i believe you are, so you should have added it as an option. nt

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

344. That would force them to either "break character" or show some self awareness. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

375. The option I was looking for was 'The author of this poll is a bigoted, shallow minded fool'.

You failed to provide such an option, which is understandable but craven.

[MineralMan]

325. I won't answer your poll.

It is a push poll, and I don't vote in such polls.

[Nye Bevan]

330. I was beginning to wonder why you hadn't voted.

Thanks for the explanation.

[MineralMan]

338. I doubt you were wondering about that at all.

My comment is my vote, along with clicking the option not to vote.

You made a public post, and I replied. That's my privilege on this website. I will continue to exercise that privilege whenever I wish to. Your poll appears to have a strong bias, so I refuse to vote, but I can still reply to it to tell you that I believe it is biased and attempts to push people to vote in ways that make no sense.

[longship]

328. Huge straw man post! nt

[ileus]

329. anyone have kids here???

[jeff47]

332. Yep. Even have a daughter. The poll is still a steaming pile of transphobia. (nt)

[Capt. Obvious]

334. No

DU is a place for childless people with too much time on their hands.

[gollygee]

368. I have two kids. n/t

[Jamastiene]

333. What a crock of shit.

I cannot believe this transphobic push poll is allowed on DU.

[Capt. Obvious]

335. You've eaten quite the meal this week

Gluttony is a sin y'know.

[Humanist_Activist]

336. When did you stop beating your spouse? That question is just as honest as your poll.

Why are you on this board?

[Rex]

343. A thread to prove my point and rather perfectly.

This is what I am talking about.

[markpkessinger]

370. I'm not sure which is worse . . .

. . . the very clear transphobia evidenced in this OP, or the "sexual predator" hysteria under which it is masquerading.

[bettyellen]

372. Bigoted push poll- and another abstention for this trash

[bobclark86]

385. Who gives a shit?

Overly-sensitive people scared of what they don't understand -- that's who.

Women are far more likely to be raped in the bathroom by a cis-man than a transgendered woman. Fact. As a man, I'm at a far higher risk of being raped in a men's room by a cis-man than by someone who transitioned. Or to have a cis coworker dump a live raccoon in the stall with me.



I think y'all need to chill out. Or lift the public urination laws.

[CTyankee]

387. Yes, chilling is good...breahe....

it's great...no problems...I call it meditation, breathing out and breathing in...

[Fearless]

397. ^^ This ^^

[Fearless]

396. It's a bathroom. Do you have separate bathrooms for men and women at home??

Are we afraid that people are going to molest small children again? Rape women?

No one is "asking for it".

Treat the real issue, a societal problem with gender issues.

I spent a year in college (a few years ago) in a dorm with unisex bathrooms. No one was harmed. Get over it.