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TalkingDog

(9,001 posts)
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 11:04 AM Sep 2015

If you need a good, easily understood example of Institutional Racism, here ya go.

Black children consistently aren't given pain meds in the same situations as white children.

It's not a conscious thing. Nobody sat down and said: "Let's let black children suffer." Institutionalized racism comes from unconscious biases. They only way to change them is to make them conscious.

Evidently that offends some people.

http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2015/09/14/Study-Black-patients-less-likely-to-get-pain-meds-in-ER/7751442255084/?spt=sec&or=hn

Black children are prescribed less pain medication than white children during treatment for appendicitis at the emergency room, researchers found in a review of national data.

snip

Just over half, 56.8 percent, of all children were found to be treated for appendicitis with any kind of painkiller at the emergency room, and only 41.3 percent received at least one dose of an opioid, according to the study, which is published in Pediatrics.

But of black children who were treated, only 12.2 percent received an opioid -- 20 percent less than white children.

"Although there is limited research that identifies subtle genetic variability in pain perception, the likelihood that physiological differences explain these phenomena is negligible," researchers wrote in a commentary also published alongside the study in Pediatrics. "If there is no physiological explanation for differing treatment of the same phenomena, we are left with the notion that subtle biases, implicit and explicit, conscious and unconscious, influence the clinician's judgment."

28 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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If you need a good, easily understood example of Institutional Racism, here ya go. (Original Post) TalkingDog Sep 2015 OP
And this builds on other studies showing differences by race in pain medication administration Gormy Cuss Sep 2015 #1
"The only way to change them is to make them conscious." Matariki Sep 2015 #2
This is a good definition. One thing: If my NA great jwirr Sep 2015 #3
The article is discussing opiods dispensed at the ER csziggy Sep 2015 #20
I said nothing about what your last sentence implies. jwirr Sep 2015 #23
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2015 #4
Simple discrepancy... graegoyle Sep 2015 #7
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2015 #8
Whitesplaining. n/t jtuck004 Sep 2015 #25
Did you even read the article? gregcrawford Sep 2015 #9
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2015 #12
Wow, maybe someone should do a study or something. gollygee Sep 2015 #16
Message auto-removed Name removed Sep 2015 #17
this also has its roots mercuryblues Sep 2015 #5
It doesn't mention differences in insurance coverage. Possibly poor children had poor coverage ToxMarz Sep 2015 #6
The study mentions it gollygee Sep 2015 #14
Good Post Rilgin Sep 2015 #10
Thank you for posting this. greatlaurel Sep 2015 #11
If this is due to racist ER doctors and nurses who want black children to suffer more pain Nye Bevan Sep 2015 #13
Why do you assume it's about anyone wanting anything gollygee Sep 2015 #15
I don't know how valid the "unintentional" excuse is. Nye Bevan Sep 2015 #18
How (and further, why) precisely would the individual doctor notice the pattern? LanternWaste Sep 2015 #19
If every individual doctor were to treat black and white children the same, Nye Bevan Sep 2015 #21
It makes no difference to the patient whether the under-medication is due to... Nitram Sep 2015 #22
Intelligence doesn't help with unintentional bias gollygee Sep 2015 #24
This message was self-deleted by its author Heidi Sep 2015 #28
K&R fbc Sep 2015 #26
This goes back to the old "they don't feel pain like we do".... Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2015 #27

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
1. And this builds on other studies showing differences by race in pain medication administration
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 11:20 AM
Sep 2015

As noted in the summary, this study used a narrow focus (children and appendicitis) rather than the broad studies done in the past.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
3. This is a good definition. One thing: If my NA great
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 11:28 AM
Sep 2015

grandchild went to a doctor and needed pain pills it is almost a certainty that my addicted grandson would get most if not all of them for himself.

Now this still plays into the institutional racist idea because that could happen in a white home just as easily as any other home. And the fact that the ER doctors discriminate on what they think MIGHT happen is definitely institutional racism.

csziggy

(34,136 posts)
20. The article is discussing opiods dispensed at the ER
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 01:05 PM
Sep 2015

Not medications to be taken home. Appendicitis is not something they write a prescription for and treated later.

I can understand caution in cases like your great grand child and your grandson. But to give less pain reliever while IN a hospital in an emergency situation where misuse or appropriation by another family member could never happen is absurd.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
23. I said nothing about what your last sentence implies.
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 01:19 PM
Sep 2015

I was using the case of my family to tell you that what happens in my family can and does happen regardless of race. And that to keep medications from the child of poc is discrimination.

I also was not aware that the ER treats this on site instead of sending meds home. If that is the case then some ER doctors are NOT good doctors. They are practicing racism.

Response to TalkingDog (Original post)

Response to graegoyle (Reply #7)

Response to gregcrawford (Reply #9)

Response to gollygee (Reply #16)

mercuryblues

(14,532 posts)
5. this also has its roots
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 12:10 PM
Sep 2015

in an belief dating back to slavery. Certain races or ethnicities felt less pain than the white, European person. Even after anesthesia became widely used Dr's would not use it on blacks and many Irish immigrants, cause you know they lived hard lives and were used to pain, so it wasn't needed for them.

ToxMarz

(2,169 posts)
6. It doesn't mention differences in insurance coverage. Possibly poor children had poor coverage
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 12:12 PM
Sep 2015

Or were treated in emergency rooms without insurance

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
14. The study mentions it
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 12:44 PM
Sep 2015

From the study (linked in the article)

The following covariates were included in our analyses to adjust for potential confounding: ethnicity, age, sex, insurance status, triage acuity level, pain score, geographic region, ED type, and survey year.

Rilgin

(787 posts)
10. Good Post
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 12:35 PM
Sep 2015

I have mostly tried to bite my lip and not post on some of the posts here on DU about racism. Mostly because, some of the posters seem to have mixed motives and the posts are designed to provoke. This has led to heated flame threads.

I suspect your post will not have the same reaction. Your post discusses directly and provides a good example of one form racism that currently exists in our system and uses language that addresses the issue without side connotations. It does not try to attack either "black people" or "white people". It does not use awkward words such as privilege to describe a problem but uses words that everyone should understand "institutional racism" and "bias".

Thank you for your post. If asked, I could imagine this type of disparity existing but I would never have imagined the severity of the gap. Even if some of this is due to insurance since it was a study of emergency rooms, it still shows some of the inequality of the American System.

greatlaurel

(2,004 posts)
11. Thank you for posting this.
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 12:35 PM
Sep 2015


So very sad for allowing children to suffer. I know a couple of medical students. I will be sharing this with them.

Thanks, again.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
13. If this is due to racist ER doctors and nurses who want black children to suffer more pain
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 12:43 PM
Sep 2015

than white children, then that is just horrible.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
15. Why do you assume it's about anyone wanting anything
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 12:46 PM
Sep 2015

rather than a reflection of unintentional bias?

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
18. I don't know how valid the "unintentional" excuse is.
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 12:58 PM
Sep 2015

Doctors and nurses are generally smart people. One would expect them to notice this kind of pattern.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
19. How (and further, why) precisely would the individual doctor notice the pattern?
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 01:04 PM
Sep 2015

How (and further, why) precisely would the individual doctor notice the collective pattern?

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
21. If every individual doctor were to treat black and white children the same,
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 01:09 PM
Sep 2015

there would be no collective pattern. The question is, is it credible that some particular doctors would consistently treat children differently based upon their race, without realizing it?

Nitram

(22,813 posts)
22. It makes no difference to the patient whether the under-medication is due to...
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 01:17 PM
Sep 2015

...intentional or unintentional bias. The point is that doctors and nurses should heed the research and carefully monitor their own administration of medication to minorities.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
24. Intelligence doesn't help with unintentional bias
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 01:22 PM
Sep 2015

This isn't written specifically about racial bias (because that would make how racist a person is a factor in the study,) but this is true for all biases. It isn't an issue of intelligence.

http://www.newyorker.com/tech/frontal-cortex/why-smart-people-are-stupid

The philosopher, it turns out, got it backward. A new study in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology led by Richard West at James Madison University and Keith Stanovich at the University of Toronto suggests that, in many instances, smarter people are more vulnerable to these thinking errors. Although we assume that intelligence is a buffer against bias—that’s why those with higher S.A.T. scores think they are less prone to these universal thinking mistakes—it can actually be a subtle curse.

(snip)

The results were quite disturbing. For one thing, self-awareness was not particularly useful: as the scientists note, “people who were aware of their own biases were not better able to overcome them.” This finding wouldn’t surprise Kahneman, who admits in “Thinking, Fast and Slow” that his decades of groundbreaking research have failed to significantly improve his own mental performance. “My intuitive thinking is just as prone to overconfidence, extreme predictions, and the planning fallacy”—a tendency to underestimate how long it will take to complete a task—“as it was before I made a study of these issues,” he writes.

Perhaps our most dangerous bias is that we naturally assume that everyone else is more susceptible to thinking errors, a tendency known as the “bias blind spot.” This “meta-bias” is rooted in our ability to spot systematic mistakes in the decisions of others—we excel at noticing the flaws of friends—and inability to spot those same mistakes in ourselves. Although the bias blind spot itself isn’t a new concept, West’s latest paper demonstrates that it applies to every single bias under consideration, from anchoring to so-called “framing effects.” In each instance, we readily forgive our own minds but look harshly upon the minds of other people.

And here’s the upsetting punch line: intelligence seems to make things worse. The scientists gave the students four measures of “cognitive sophistication.” As they report in the paper, all four of the measures showed positive correlations, “indicating that more cognitively sophisticated participants showed larger bias blind spots.” This trend held for many of the specific biases, indicating that smarter people (at least as measured by S.A.T. scores) and those more likely to engage in deliberation were slightly more vulnerable to common mental mistakes. Education also isn’t a savior; as Kahneman and Shane Frederick first noted many years ago, more than fifty per cent of students at Harvard, Princeton, and M.I.T. gave the incorrect answer to the bat-and-ball question.

Response to gollygee (Reply #24)

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
27. This goes back to the old "they don't feel pain like we do"....
Tue Sep 15, 2015, 01:41 PM
Sep 2015

You'll also hear that on farms when they're slaughtering animals.

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