It's not like people are forced to take student loans.

[RadiationTherapy]

I earned my first bachelor's degree at age 37. I can assure each and every one of you that, for me, there was no thriving - only basic surviving - without getting a degree. The costs of earning a degree (tuition, books, etc), the high cost of living, and the low paying jobs all conspire to make loans quite necessary, thank you.

39 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	People are not forced to take student loans.
	9 (23%)
	The job market, cost of living, and cost of education conspire to "force" one to take student loans.
	30 (77%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[bemildred]

1. Education is a human right, and it should be free to all comers.

Like highways and bridges. Or damned cheap anyway. This "student loan" stuff is a perniciious racket of the same stripe as "health insurance".

[ProdigalJunkMail]

3. while I agree with you to some degree...

is there a point where the education that is a RIGHT should stop and then be an option? Is it a right for everyone to obtain a doctorate? I am torn on this one...I certainly agree a basic education is a right...but at what point does it become something else?

sP

[bemildred]

5. Who decides?

I'd let people go to school cradle to grave, a small fee if they can afford it, free if they are indigent, if that's what they want. Should we give the resources to the Romney's of the world instead? I think of it as an investment in our people and our future.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

6. so, why would anyone ever do any work

if you could go to school...full-time...forever...for free? and to what end? simply to know stuff you never use? surely you can see the danger in that...

sP

[bemildred]

9. Yep, scary thought.

Knowing stuff can ruin your life if you overdo it:

Do you have a thinking problem?
Answer the following questions and find out.

1.) Does your thinking begin earlier in the
day than it used to?

2.) Do you find yourself craving a think at
a specific time each day?

3.) Have you ever had a blackout as a result
of thinking?

4.) Do you think alone?

5.) Has your thinking ever caused you to perform
an act which you later discerned to be
certifiably insane or incredibly stupid.

If you answered yes to any of the above questions,
you could be among the millions of people in this
country who have lost the ability to control their
thinking, a disease which, if left untreated, can
result in jails, institutions, or frontal lobotomy.
And just because you don't think every day doesn't
mean you don't have a problem. Many problem thinkers
go for days or weeks without thinking, only to
eventually find themselves on the inveitable three
or four day thinking binge.

THINKENDERS can help you stop thinking. Call for
our free brochure, "No thought for today" and find
out how.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

14. what the fuck are you talking about?

i am not talking of the dangers of 'thinking'. but certainly, at some point, someone needs to do some work.

nice backhanded insult, by the way...i can tell you 'thought' about it.

sP

[bemildred]

15. "surely you can see the danger in that..."

So you made that statement as a serious comment? Too much education will doom us all?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

17. it is apparent that you have once again failed to grasp the point

i will explain in simple terms for you.

Do you believe that if people never have to pay for ANY LEVEL of education ('cradle to grave' to use your terms) that they would EVER go to work? Do you believe the world can survive if people don't do any work? and if you DO see that people just MIGHT need to work at some point, what would be their possible motivation if they can just go to school...forever...for free?

sP

[The2ndWheel]

29. The world would be fine

Human civilization, not so much.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

75. the Earth would be fine...indeed n/t

[bemildred]

31. Most people work to get money. To eat and stuff like that.

Near as I remember, they don't feed you for free in higher education, and you can't eat the books. Making it free just makes it accessible to people with no extra money. (Edit: i.e. the people that need the education the most.)

[FloridaJudy]

62. Unless they belong to the 1%

Most people work while pursuing degrees these days. I didn't while I got my first degree, but that was back in the 60's, when scholarships and work study programs were plentiful, tuition was reasonable, and a pair of school teachers could afford to put a kid through college. Since then, I've gotten 2 more, and I worked while getting both.

My own son worked his way through CC and the University, and is now planning to work while attending law school. No one gets a free ride these days. They're just lucky if they don't graduate with a mountain of debt in addition to exhaustion.

One of the perks of my last job was that they would pay tuition for a class every semester. Dozens of my co-workers now have degrees that they couldn't have afforded otherwise. It was a government job, but both employer and employees won. They got a more educated work force, and we had a chance to advance our careers. That's how it should work.

[bemildred]

66. Indeed.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

76. hmmm...someone is going to have to work to supply

those students with food...shelter...other services they may require. i wonder who will do that sort of work since everyone will be in college...

oh, wait, people will have to work so they won't have TIME to go to college...i would LOVE to go to college again. loved learning (fortunately have a job that allows me to keep learning). alas, i have to feed, house and clothe me and my little family.

sP

[bemildred]

84. False dichotomy. It is not an either/or choice,

and it is not correct that students can't or won't or don't work, they work in school and they work jobs too, except for the offspring of the wealthy, who are indeed given the full ride for free.

[fishwax]

58. people might go to work so they can buy food, afford a place to live, maybe even go on vacation

Seriously, if education were free, I think people would still go to work for the same reasons people go to work now.

[underseasurveyor]

156. HA! +1

Call 1-800 Think Stoppers

[underseasurveyor]

155. Attending school doesn't pay an hourly wage or salary.

Of course people would have to have jobs and work to earn money.

[obamanut2012]

7. College should be free, as it is is quite a few countreis

I also think getting a vo-tech degree should also be free.

[TBF]

10. Absolutely - we are doing the wrong kind of testing in this country.

Apptitude/General Ability/Interests should be tested (determined might be a better word). Not everyone has the interest or aptitude to be a rocket scientist ... instead of forcing everyone into 4-yr college many more folks ought to be going to specialized training. And they ought to be able to make a decent living when they choose a profession like plumbing, car mechanics, culinary school, etc ...

[CTyankee]

24. Not really "free." Education in such countries is paid for through taxes as is health care

and other social programs. However, they are much cheaper because they spread the cost among the entire population of taxpayers...

[4th law of robotics]

77. In countries where it is free they often restrict it based on highschool performance

or the equivalent of highschool.

[Johnny Rico]

88. There's no such thing as "free" education, it's paid for via taxes.

[surrealAmerican]

96. This is not an actual problem.

In places where education is free or nearly so, most people don't have the patience or aptitude to get a doctorate.

We have people in this country who don't even finish high school, despite the lack of cost.

[white_wolf]

111. That's what I don't get about people who argue everyone will become professional students.

Most people don't want to spend their lives in school and the ones who do will benefit society in other ways by becoming educators, researchers, etc. Of course, to those people who don't think education is important such things probably aren't considered a benefit to society.

[dkf]

25. Then teachers should instruct at no cost.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. You do of course realize

Other countries do have nearly free or free university education.

Instructors are paid with this strange thing called taxes. I know, this is a very alien concept in the US...we invest in guns, not the future. You might want to read Ike's speech on this about bullets spent.

[treestar]

42. Yes, though limited to ability

[bemildred]

44. Of course, you still have to do the work.

You waste the teachers time, you flunk out.

[ZombieHorde]

72. Yes!!!! nt

[frazzled]

2. Age 37 is one thing

What surprises me is that an 18 or 19 year old is able to take out this amount of loans. Who is lending them money? (Hint: it isn't the government.) This is reminiscent of the mortgage scams of the 2000s: giving people loans who couldn't afford them; packaging those loans into complex financial instruments and then selling/gambling with them. Pouf: bubble burst, and someone has made off with a lot of money.

Both my kids took out Stafford loans as part of their college tuition package. A combination of tuition reduction, minor National Merit Scholarship money, and mostly loans that we as parents took out paid for their education. I know for a fact that the government won't lend students money through the Stafford program over a certain amount, the amount increasing over each of the four years. It's not a lot (especially compared with the price of private tuition.) I believe my kids ended up with $10K to $12K of student loans at the end of four years. As parents, we had more, which we're still paying off.

I was asking my daughter-in-law how, then, do you see these stories of undergraduate students graduating with $120,000 in loans? Who is lending to them? She says there are banks that will do it. And that shocks me. This is the crux of the problem, and nobody seems to be talking about it. Help me understand.

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. This isn't a matter of opinion.

Last edited Thu May 24, 2012, 01:31 PM - Edit history (1)

If you can recoup the cost of education through increased earnings within a reasonable timeframe, it's a good investment.
If you can't... it's a bad investment
If you think that this calculation is irrelevant, then it was a lifestyle purchase.

[RadiationTherapy]

8. Yes, but those first two and possibly the third are whole unknowns when a young person arrives.

Also, you are ignoring the part that if you decline to take this investment risk, you are - by far - more likely to work "low-paying" jobs for your entire life. I realize "low-paying" is an indistinct term, but nonetheless, not getting a degree - and, thus, loans - is much riskier in the long-term.

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. They're not unknowns to the school administration.

A better case can be made that the schools are exploiting the naivete and credit of the kids. In other words, it may be a choice, but it is not an informed choice.

It is better to take a low paying job with no debt than a low paying job and massive debt.

The loan calculator I just used indicates that the payments on a $60,000 education are just under $700/month for 10 years.

Working for $15/hour for 14 years, I earn about $420,000.
Working for $25/hour for 10 years, I earn about $420,000 after subtracting the student loan payments.

You have to nearly double your income to recoup the cost of the investment.

[RadiationTherapy]

32. The School Administration paid 6 figures and charged with growing the campus and the coffers?

Hitchens was wrong, it is capitalism that poisons everything.

[lumberjack_jeff]

50. Then you chose "lifestyle purchase"

I hope they taught you some stellar sales skills to explain why those costs should be externalized.

[magical thyme]

12. and if you research the earnings ahead of time

and are lied to about the job market by the university and government stats and lied to about the true starting salary by the HR rep, and discover too late that all your financial planning was based on lies....then what?

Btw, calculus is irrelevant to many important educations, such as nursing.

I think basic education should be free. I think votech and certain other degrees, such as medical school and allied health care, should be free contingent upon maintaining a certain grade point average and completing the programs. Degrees that lead to a profession where there is demonstrable community need and shortage.

[lumberjack_jeff]

19. "that calculus" = "the results of your ROI calculation" sorry for the ambiguity.

An informed decision to make an investment requires calculating the return using varying assumptions (variables).

I fully agree that the university administrations lie to incoming students about the future value of their investment. They are essentially investment salesmen who work on a commission.

[RadiationTherapy]

33. At what stage in life would a person's education include

the conceptual and practical application of calculus as pertains to ROI as well as the various philosophies around risk which one must have to act on the calculated results of the ROI?

[lumberjack_jeff]

43. When I was in fifth grade, I knew that I could buy my friend's bike for $30 and resell it for $40.

I knew that my ROI (although I didn't know the term yet) was $10.

If high school hasn't prepared a young adult to say, "What do I get in return for my money?", or in fact to recognize that a loan is in fact not free money, then they are unprepared to decide to purchase additional education.

"If I go to college I can earn X. If I don't, I can earn Y. If the cost of college is Z, then X-Z must be > Y or college is for suckas."

Sure, shit happens and market conditions change. But if one's chosen graduate degree program is english literature, it's hard to believe that they applied that rudimentary logic.

If mom and dad are buying? Hey, knock yourself out. But if you're paying for it yourself (e.g. loans) then you must be prepared with that simple logical ability or you aren't qualified to make the decision.

[RadiationTherapy]

45. HAAAahahahahaha! I suspected as much. "I don't think with you" -

if you catch my drift. AKA: I don't want to live in your cold calculus of a world. Your expression on this topic can only be described as robotic. While I appreciate logic and cold, hard facts, oversimplification of this magnitude is the same as not asserting anything at all.

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. Fine. But don't expect me to be inclined to absorb the costs of your choices.

or validate your "non robotic thinking"

[RadiationTherapy]

53. No, no, of course not.

[lumberjack_jeff]

60. "jubilee" is exactly that. n/t

[RadiationTherapy]

64. It is easy to see I am not advocating for that.

It is easy to see that I am disputing the "no one forces..." assertion I have heard from others and is the title of this OP.

[lumberjack_jeff]

67. What's the logical conclusion of holding people blameless for the loans they agreed to?

If your belief is that people really are coerced to take college debt, then what's your solution?

[RadiationTherapy]

70. It's quite complex don't you think? I don't have a "solution" nor

do I think one will be easy to come by.

I also do not hold people "blameless". I am merely pointing out that there are forces beyond the simplistic notion of "you chose to."

[lumberjack_jeff]

89. Okay, we're getting somewhere.

I think college is mostly a scam. It is there to improve ones chances of not getting rained on at work. Hr managers love it because actually testing an applicant's ability to do a job is time comsuming - better to let the resume scanning software do the work.

To the degree that this is true, I'm sympathetic. What I strongly disagree with is the notion that "education" is so valuable for its own sake that the cost is irrelevant... but someone else should pay for it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. Ah, thanks for the textbook example

Of anti intellectualism.

[lumberjack_jeff]

92. Did college entitle you to write your own textbooks?

Anti-intellectualism means something more than "he insulted me."

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. Funny

Really. I could recommend two books, on this, but shan't. You can use the google for that.

[white_wolf]

102. You said education was useless for its own sake.

That's pretty anti-intellectual.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. And that college was mostly a scam.

How are you by the way?

[white_wolf]

109. I'm doing pretty good right now.

The semester's over and I did good in all my classes so I'm pretty good. How about you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. Visiting mom, getting home tomorrow

Go over to the photography forum, posted one thread with architecture, and one nature shots, will post more after tomorrow.

[lumberjack_jeff]

116. No, I said college is useless for it's own sake.

If you can't extract education from the nearly infinite cloud of knowledge swirling around you, then you're hopeless.

Education is infintely valuable. College is worth what the piece of paper can buy you.

[white_wolf]

122. "What I strongly disagree with is the notion that "education" is so valuable for its own sake..."

Those are your exact words, if you meant college then you should have said so.

[lumberjack_jeff]

125. You're right. I fell into the convention of treating "college" and "education" as synonymous.

They are not. Thanks for the correction.

[magical thyme]

147. ok. calculus actually is a requirement for many degrees

my more advanced degree requires it, along with any of the sciences. I guestimated the student loan payments to within $20 of what they actually turned out to be.

"I fully agree that the university administrations lie to incoming students about the future value of their investment. They are essentially investment salesmen who work on a commission."

The same can be said of the HR person who deliberately lied about the salary range, overstating the starting salary by 25%, to lure in more students, thus increase competition for jobs and drive salaries down. Which appears to have actually been going on in my situation, since 2 of us were told the inflated starting salary and both of us did our financial planning based on that starting range.

One of us is young, handsome, and has his whole life ahead of him to work through it. He's smart enough to be a doctor, he grew up in a health care family, and I think this is his longer-range plan, using this job as a stepping stone while he gets his more advanced degrees.

The other of us was mid-50s at the start of the program, too young to retire and too old to be desired and hired, and entered the program due to being good in science and math, and the 100% employment with projected growth rate.

Personally, I have been financially ruined by this. To make it worse, I already had a halfway-decent part time job that paid almost as much as the true starting salary for my new job, I took on additional student loans and left the paying job to stay in a program I absolutely loathed because the existing job wouldn't pay the student loans.

Had I been told the correct salary range, I would never have entered the program. Had I learned of the income based repayment program in time, I never would have finished it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

148. Now that the school knows the actual starting wage

I wonder if they're giving that new information to incoming freshmen?

I get where you're coming from and I empathize. You were sold a bill of goods by HR people in collusion with the college. The HR person got their warm body and the college got their tuition.

I'm saying that unlike you, there are also people who didn't do the ROI calculation or in fact didn't care because "education is important for its own sake"... until they realized that they would one day actually have to repay their student loans, and that the education they obtained was actually a tertiary consideration behind the certificate and the impression the certificate makes on people.

[magical thyme]

152. the school already knew the starting wage

they weren't advertising it then, and I doubt they're advertising it now.

However, I did advise the program director. She asked me who gave me the figures. I expect that she had a talk with them. I wouldn't be surprised if she gives incoming students straight advice on what the local salary ranges are, as well as local job opportunities. She had 8 students in clinicals at her hospital, with only 2 openings.

She was new to the university and walked into a mess, with students promised the moon and the local job market -- even in healthcare -- cratering. She needs enough students to keep herself employed, but the fact is there are more students graduating each year than there are local jobs. Last year I was the only new-grad applicant at my hospital. This year, they chose between two and I believe the person they just made an offer to is to replace me because I really cannot do night shift.

[riderinthestorm]

16. There are loads of careers that had outstanding growth projections in 2008, that are flattened now

Civil engineers, architects, urban planners, education, paralegals, radiology etc. etc. People aren't fortune tellers and can't possibly "know" that their chosen profession may be the one that falls to a bad economy or outsourcing by the time they graduate.

An educated populace lifts all boats and the US is foolish in making education impossible to afford for our brightest and best hope for the future. Virtually every single other industrialized country has free or highly subsidized education for advanced degrees because they recognize its one of the best investments they can make in the advancement of their country.

[Egalitarian Thug]

37. No, it a game of chance with no rules and fewer facts from which to work.

We have layers of lies and false promises all constructed specifically for one purpose, to get young people to sign the loan forms. Education? We don't need no stinking education, all we need is money.

[Johonny]

40. education is not an investment it is a necessity

You need to know things. It is as essential to eating, breathing or shelter. You home isn't an investment, it's what keeps you from freezing in the summer. Og the caveman taught the next generation what it needed to know to survive in the world. Og the caveman taught them what to eat, how to find a cave for shelter, where the river was to drink in etc... People don't have many actual advantages as a species. Its main one is its amazing rapid ability to transfer information generation to generation. Stop that, and you are headed to extinction. Not investing in food means you starve, not investing in education means you also starve. Thus it is a necessity.

[cabinet has been debating putting water on the plants instead of Brawndo]
Pvt. Joe Bowers: What *are* these electrolytes? Do you even know?
Secretary of State: They're... what they use to make Brawndo!
Pvt. Joe Bowers: But *why* do they use them to make Brawndo?
Secretary of Defense: [raises hand after a pause] Because Brawndo's got electrolytes.

[lumberjack_jeff]

54. And libraries are free.

"My boy is wicked smaht."

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. Gee, want to go see a dentist

Or doctor who got all his/ her learning at the local library?

That be the most obvious example

[lumberjack_jeff]

115. I'm pretty confident that my dentist can afford his student loans. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. Knowing actual dentists and doctors

No, not really. A doctor just starting out will take anywhere from thirty to forty years to pay it off, if at all...perhaps now you will start to get it. Talk to your dentist if you trust him/her that much.

Perhaps you can use that cloud and find those stats yourself.

[lumberjack_jeff]

123. The average dentist makes $140,000+ annually.

Unless the average dentist borrows about $2.5 million or so, "forty years" is wrong.

He's going to have to look elsewhere for student loan relief and sympathy.

And now you know. But you didn't learn it in college, demonstrating once again that college isn't for critical thinking.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. Not worth it

Self delete...

Have a great day. Glad I hope we never get the kind of society you wish for.

[Bohunk68]

117. Being on dialyup

I didn't play your link, nor did I sense a sarcasm thingee anywheres. So, I presume that you were actually meaning that libraries are free. We just had a school budget election this past Tuesday here in Upstate NY and the library issue on the ballot was separate from the regular school budget, as was the voting for school buses. So, I guess I should presume that the library is going to come out of my tax bill, ergo, NOT FREE. By the way, since the budget increase exceeded the 2% restriction by state law, the budget needed to pass by 60% plus. It did not meet that threshold and will have to be worked over and once again presented to the voters. Libraries are not free. I'm paying for them and I voted for them. Ignorance is NOT a virtue, "W" be damned.

[lumberjack_jeff]

120. Okay. Free in the sense that sidewalks are "free".

While in the NON FREE public library, look up "quibble".

[4th law of robotics]

78. We do invest in education

Just not infinitely.

[aquart]

11. Education is a national security and economic issue.

A nation that fails to educate its people gets wiped up by nations that do keep their population ready to invent, patent, and grapple with all the ways knowledge can be made useful.

So bully for you and your happy self sufficiency but what good did that do for the rest of us?

Now would be a good time to consider what a nation is, what its purpose is, and why so many humans choose to belong to one or occasionally two.

[RadiationTherapy]

13. I'm sorry, but I don't understand your question.

"So bully for you and your happy self sufficiency but what good did that do for the rest of us?"

[Ruby the Liberal]

69. Either I misread the OP or you did?

Cuz I got the exact opposite out of it.

[hfojvt]

20. I got my first degree in 1985 at age 23

After I quit my first job with the MIC, I have basically worked non college jobs. Factory work, janitorial work, and temp work has been my "career". My degree has not been worth the paper it is printed on. I have not exactly thrived on those jobs http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002625762 but I would not call it bare survival either. My paid-for house, CD collection, DVD collection, multiple computers, high speed internet, multiple dogs, IRA funds and multiple fancy bicycles sorta belie that fact.

The loans are not necessary, in my opnion, because the college degree is not necessary, and as far as my experience goes, the college degree is not very useful. Employers are NOT falling all over themselves to hire me for the best jobs.

Part of that is the law of demand, or I forget what else the economics textbook called it. It is the story that, if one or two people stand up, they can see better, but then if everybody stands up, then nobody can see any better than if they all sat down. Similarly, if one or two people have college degrees (or one or two percent) then those college degrees are valuable, but when almost everybody has one, then people with master's degrees end up working as janitors because there are not enough of those degree-type (high paying and high status) jobs to go around.

[DotGone]

21. You are forced to take student loans unless you like flipping burgers

Look at how many barely above minimum wage work requires a degree these days. It's fucking ridiculous that you need a BS to answer a phone and open envelopes. So technically, yeah you aren't required to take out loans, but you're most likely going to be living in poverty without one unless you get a break somewhere.

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. College is the price you pay for the privilege of working cleanly, indoors.

If you don't mind working outdoors or getting your hands dirty at the careers that others disparage, life is easier and the pay is better.

"flipping burgers" vs "college" is a false choice.

[DotGone]

56. Pray tell what are these dirty unskilled jobs?

Landscaping? $9.50/hr
Day laborer? $8/hr
Janitor? $9/hr

Those are poverty wages that require you to work 2 of them to get by. I can tell you I would never get hired due to my stature. UPS/Fedex would not hire me to push boxes for $8/hr due to my being too small. Anything close to paying a living wage (just getting by w/o anything left for retirement/sickness/etc...) is going to require some sort of skill and telling people you can do it doesn't fly. My father works as a mechanic and his shop gets people asking for jobs w/o anything that proves they can do it. His boss isn't letting someone who comes off the street near his equipment let alone the client's vehicles. Newbs come from the local vo-tech schools which cost $20K/year.

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. Does college pay any better than any of those careers?

Choice A) work for 14 years as a janitor for $9/hour
Choice B) Borrow $60,000 for college. You have to make an uninterrupted $17 per hour in the decade following graduation to come out even.

If you're going to college because you can't stomach the idea of sweeping floors, then it's a lifestyle purchase.

[jeff47]

81. Yes.

There are many careers which pay more than $17/hr in their first decade which require a degree.

There are others which do not.

Whether college is a good deal or not depends if you're going "because I'm supposed to" or going because you wish to enter one of those fields that pay well.

[4th law of robotics]

79. That's a line people keep repeating

and yet tradesmen such as plumbers, electricians, and the like are doing much better nowadays than quite a few college grads.

And they are not living in poverty. Granted they won't get an easy job in an office that pays 6 figures to look at facebook all day.

But they do alright.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. Trade schools still cost

And I am sure you do not realize this, but Pell Grants ain't just for college either.

I know them are the ones we keep talking about, but your local trade school also charges tuition.

Yes some unions will train their people, but most go to trade.

[4th law of robotics]

98. I am aware

but the poster I was referring to specifically mentioned need a BS for anything other than flipping burgers.

I pointed out that this was not the case.

Not so?

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Depends

While not a college degree dron oh IT, linemen have the equivalent training of a four year grad electrical engineer

And what the op was talking about is his experience, from whatever he was doing in the service economy to college.

Correct me if I am wrong... Do we have a lot of openings as oh linemen for example? Also the average pay for somebody with high school over a lifetime averages a million less than a four year graduate...of course these are averages.

Meaning some plumbers will make more than doctors, layers and engineers.

This actually goes to the guild system of the middle ages.

My view, college should be still pushed, taxes should go up, for all..and public schools should be symbolic on how much they cost a student to attend...but here is the trick...kids who go party...sorry. This means your students must maintain a minimum GPA, or their tuition will go up. By the way, trade schools should also be financed with taxes. In other words, we need a national change in what we invest in...at a policy level.

[4th law of robotics]

141. I agree in general

we should be investing more in education . . . in areas that ultimately pay off and in students that ultimately deserve it.

And I would include all manner of secondary education in that, such as jobs training/internships/etc.

Perhaps companies can be provided with incentives to train people and keep them on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. Alas this requires taxes

Nations that get it have higher taxes and quite different spending priorities.

Today in the plane flight was having a similar conversation with a Mexican couple. As I put it to them, we need a two fold cultural change. We need a change in policy...aka what we invest in, education, infrastructure, healthcare...neither health care or education shoud be primarily for profit. Health care still is, and education increasingly is going there.

But we also need massive changes in the civic culture, and an end (will take a generation or two), to the me culture.

Believe it or not Mexico shares this me,me,me and has shared it for over two to three generations.

But that might change faster down there. As is, as I pointed to somebody else in this thread, they opened 150 universities (public) in the last sexenio, that is presidential period...we are cutting. Trends are not good...for us.

As to kids who deserve it...some kids are not ready to go to college at 18, fine...trade schools are fine. We need electricians and electrical engineers. Some kids will go back to college later in life, and some are ready at 18, some of this has to be GPA based, and we should learn from other nations and include some form of social service, internship, in public service at the end...whether ths is trade or college...see the needed changes in civic culture, and the creation of the we.

But I am not blind to trades and their needs...heck, I use trades people regularly.

[hfojvt]

143. the other part is

my co-worker has a decent paying janitorial job, and he never went to college. I worked as a factory temp for three years and never got hired by that factory, which paid $13 an hour plus overtime and benefits to start. That's a long way from minimum wage. While I was there, the factory hired other people who had no college degrees. Even one guy they hired hadn't even graduated from High School!!! Of course, they fired him because his background check determined that he had lied about having his GED. If he had only told the truth and said "I am working on my GED" he probably would have gotten the job. A job that I, with my two college degrees, did not get.

[Bake]

22. And how long ago was that?

I went to a private college in the 70s. It cost $2000 a year, and I had scholarships for most of it, and paid the difference myself. State schools are more than 10x that now. My son couldn't POSSIBLY attend without student loans.

How much did YOUR school cost?

Bake

[riderinthestorm]

26. Costs for 2012 at the University of Illinois, a public state school for in-state undergrads is $30k

I've said this before ad nauseum on all these threads that keep blaming students for having so much debt. It boggles the mind that DUers aren't conceptualizing how much it costs to become a nurse for example, and then you can't earn enough working in your (theoretically high demand) field to pay it off.

http://admissions.illinois.edu/cost/tuition_freshman.html

You just simply can't work enough to keep up with the costs so student loans are a necessity.

[Bake]

27. States have continually ratcheted down what they pay for colleges.

And costs have continued to increase. So guess who gets screwn? The students.

An LTE (from the Clarion-Ledger in Jackson, MS) said student ought to pay the costs, since they're the ones who reap the benefits. I wonder IF he went to school, and if so, when. It's not just the student who benefits. IT IS SOCIETY. Some people just don't get that. Or in this clown's case, "I got mine, screw you."

Bake

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. If the investment required to become a nurse can't be recouped in salary, why become a nurse?

If you want to be a nurse so much that you're willing to pay someone for the opportunity to do it for free, then it's a lifestyle purchase.

Better to be a bricklayer. http://www1.salary.com/Bricklayer-Salary.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. You probably do not realize this

But trades are just as expensive to learn, and include loans. Food bagger at a supermarket, minimum, no benefits, now you are getting close.

I love people who aprove of this race to the bottom and can't comprehend these are policies set at the highest levels, not "life style choices."

Don't worry, you won't get to experience the consequences of this full force. You are only living through the leading edge of this.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. My 19 y/o son is in a 2 year diesel tech class.

His pell grants + work study income + tool grants - tuition - books - fuel - living expenses (at home) = 0 and he now owns the tools.

His 22 y/o elder brother signed up with a teaching trucking company. In return for two months of training and one year of driving (for which he was paid, albeit not very well) he now has his CDL, hauls loads into Canada, is home almost every weekend and makes a lot more than me.

Trades are not necessarily expensive to learn. The local plumber/stonemason/septic pumper/mechanic/concrete contractor/arborist/electrician is always hiring helpers.

Tuition is the money you pay to not get greasy/climb tall things/stand in the rain/get laughed at during your 10 year class reunion.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Look at tuition for trades

Your kid's experience is increasingly the exception.

You keep applauding the very radical right race to the bottom. I prefer to try to change policies at the highest of levels. You think, if they get away with it, your kids will remain in the lower middle class?

I know blue dogs defend this crap, including the pull yourself by bootstraps. But if you get your wish, and nobody gets nursing degrees, or medical, where are these professionals going to come from? It's a shame, we keep cutting public education and investing in the future... While even countries to the south of us are investing and expanding the public university System.

Chew on this, we are cutting schools while Mexico opened 150 universities (public) in the last decade.

They are investing in the future ( and recruiting also students from the US with full grants) while we are not. The brain flight from the US is well underway...chew on that. Our policies at the highest of levels both at the fed and state level are not building on what we need...as a nation

Can you say competiveness?

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. No, I'm objecting to the assertion that college is somehow separable from economics.

If you can afford to indulge your curiosity for english literature, by all means do so.

But don't expect the "lower middle class" who realized that they couldn't afford college (and it made no economic sense anyway) to bail out the loans of those with deficient critical thinking skills.

If education is important on a national security/competitiveness basis, and are going to pick up the tab, the government should tell you what degree program you are going to take. And it's probably not fashion design, theater or communications.

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. I guess we should not indulge our curiosity

For medicine, nursing, engineering and a few other important careers either.

Look, we get it, from above, you object to education, period.

You are part of the great American anti intellectual tradition, as old as at least the 1740s and distrust of book learning, alas developed economies need these books and experts to remain competitive in the world stage. Either we get them trained at home, or will have to import them...hey, I don't mind the US getting a dose of cultural imperialism and brain flight, by all means...and this is not economics, but policy...( pesky darn book learning'). Don't get me wrong, macro-economics, dang here I go again with that fancy book learning, has a bit to do with that pesky policy and what people at the highest levels of government decide to do with resources.

Alas, our policy says guns and defense...I guess we will outsource technical branches of the armed forces in a generation or two as well... Yup, that's the ticket.

Now, 'gain dang book learnin' you are thinking micro economics, and that effect you see, which you blame people for making lifestyle choices, is a late effect of macro economic policy decisions. See California, going from top in the education food chain to 48...and that, partly, is the self interest of citizens who cannot connect those taxes and investment in education with...taxes.

That my friend is partly that great anti intellectual tradition you're proudly part off.

[lumberjack_jeff]

101. If it's an important career, it pays enough to repay student loans.

Otherwise, college is the money you spend for the privilege of staying dry.

"Book Learnin" requires books, not buildings and indoctrination. Books cost nothing if you're on good terms with the librarian and conscious of the due date.

As someone posted upthread, the expectation that everyone should have a degree has created the expectation that every job requires it. Wanna be an assistant manager at Target? Better have a degree. Because the job needs it? No, simply because they can.

The student loans the $15/hour assistant managers took to get the job was a poor investment. The differential between the assistant managers salary and those they supervise will never justify the cost.

Specialized education that isn't applied doesn't benefit society in any meaningful way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. You mean like medicine?

I guess medicine is no longer important.

How about oh Engineering?

I guess no longer importat...that ranges from chemical, to urban, runs the gamut.

Do you consider physics important? Don't bother. I have the suspicion that you would not know what an applied physicist does, or why it matters...let's not even go to the theoretic physics and how that has changed your life.

I guess next time you need a surgery you should go consult your barber...who by the way was the surgeon up to the seventeenth century.

I wonder if you understand what chemistry does to improve your life.

I guess we don't need nurses, rescue workers (who attend college as well) and others.

Oh and by the way given Pell grants are also used in trade schools...we don't need plumbers and electricians either.

[lumberjack_jeff]

114. Mind reading.

You're doing it wrong.

You've gotten the "job creator" thing as messed up as any republican. You don't create a job in a given field by educating someone in it. If there are too many engineers, then educating more of them simply drives down wages - eventually reaching the point where it is not economically justifiable to purchase an education in the field. "Education for it's own sake" is a deception that simply delays recognition that the point of negative return has been reached, and creates more victims in the interim.

A labor shortage in any field creates increased demand for that labor, which encourages people to invest in that education, and raises salaries so that the student loans can be repaid.

One might want to be a philosopher, but absent an economic justification, it's wankery.

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. Nope not mind reading

You need both...why we call this policy. Nations that get it INVEST in education..obviously you don't get it.

You might benefit from some book learnin' yourself.

I recommend some courses in macro economics and high level policy.

[lumberjack_jeff]

127. Macro: Colleges serve a useful purpose because they provide the social capacity to do things.

Shoving more bodies through the school doesn't increase the need for those skills. Society's need for rocket scientists is limited by society's need for rockets.

The college industry has run headlong into this problem. There is an oversupply of people trained to do the specialized tasks that only a college can provide. What happens to the surplus?

This has resulted in two major phenomena:
a) To fill and expand this overbuilt college infrastructure, they recruit students from outside the US. Those trainees then either displace our rocket scientists, or return home to build their home country's rocket industry. Both are bad outcomes.
b) Credentialism is running amok. No one seriously believes that a Target store assistant manager needs a degree, but the corporation demands it simply because it cuts down on the number of resumes the head office needs to review. Because of the labor oversupply, this credentialism isn't reflected in rising wages, and why should it? The tasks of an assistant manager are pretty straightforward - nearly anyone could do it with varying degrees of success and the risks of making a mistake are minimal.

From labor's perspective this credentialism is a death spiral. Increased credentials increases the cost to get a job, which increases demand for credentials and so on. In 20 years, Target store managers will all be required to have PhD's and colleges will use that as a justification for your "need" to purchase their product.

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. Whoosh...

Goodbye

[riderinthestorm]

130. So wrong. Dance, music, art, literature? None of those pay enough but are incredibly important to

a civil society even as the people who graduate with say, a classical music teaching degree will be helplessly mired in debt til they die. Journalism! A laugh a minute as journalists are paid a pittance but go into Egypt and try to report on the revolutions for those of us who breathlessly await them. PhD physics graduates labor for decades in academia and will never make enough to repay their debts but have changed the face of science with particle accelerators, applications on space travel and more. PhD conomists who have mastered the principles that started micro-lending like the Grameen bank - bankrupt but doing work they love and that has changed the face of entire cultures.

Your anti-intellectualism is breathtaking in its short sightedness and grotesque narrow focus. There are so many examples of professions that even you would stipulate are of "benefit" to society that don't pay enough to enable graduates to comfortably repay their student loans. Teachers believed their "specialized education" would and could be applied when they started their degrees in 2007 or 2008. In 2012, not so much. General practitioner MDs are not making enough to pay back their student loans even as there's a crisis shortage. Same with EMTs. Perhaps anyone wanting to go into front-line medicine should just take your advice and become an electrician cuz ya know, its less college loans (even as society is dying for affordable quality medical care). I could go on and on but what's the point?

The sweeping condemnation of anyone who doesn't work in a trade is despicable. In your world, only the professions and selected people you and others deem "worthy" would get to study. But if a person has the intellectual capacity and the curiousity, higher education simply doesn't work like that and everyone who is ready to take on the challenge of enriching our country, our best and brightest, should have the opportunity. Free.

[lumberjack_jeff]

131. Yes, my "sweeping condemnation of anyone who doesn't work in a trade" is also a clarion cry

... for my fellow working class liberals here. Right? Guys? Hello? Anyone?

The classism and privilege that infect economic discussions here piss me off. Don't try to delude yourself that a classical music teaching degree is more socially important than the plumber that makes the shit go away. Journalists? Did you know that Walter Cronkite didn't have a degree? I guess that explains why the quality of journalism has increased so much.

Everyone is entitled to study to enrich themselves and their understanding of classical art. But they're obliged to pay their own bill.

The view from eloi-ville is undoubtedly better, but us morlocks are gonna eat too.

In your world, only the professions and selected people you and others deem "worthy" would get to study. But if a person has the intellectual capacity and the curiousity, higher education simply doesn't work like that and everyone who is ready to take on the challenge of enriching our country, our best and brightest, should have the opportunity. Free.

"Free" means I should pay the bill, right? Well here's the rub; In that case, yes. Only the professions and people deemed worthy will get the opportunity.

This isn't a civil right. This isn't healthcare. You're not going to die if I don't buy you a classical music teaching degree.

[riderinthestorm]

132. I'm not deluding myself that it's more important

But I'm also not denigrating anyone who believes classical music should be a part of our lives. YOU ARE the anti-intellectualist! I firmly believe that higher education, yes even for classical music instructors, benefits our society and culture. Beyond that it should be free, and paid for with tax money just like health care as an integral part of a civil society. I would stipulate that YOU as the arbiter of who gets educational financial aid, and who doesn't, is terrifying for our country's future and I hope to hell an educational version of "death panels" is your idea of a sick joke.

FWIW, I have an MBA from the University of Chicago. I'm an unrepentant liberal with the most conservative of economic degrees who works as a farmer. I do other stuff but that degree has certainly helped me achieve other great things in ways large and small throughout my life including getting hired writing grants to preserve open space, build women's shelters and food banks, raise capital for wetlands preservation and more. I presume an MBA, especially one from the dreaded U of C would be on your death panel list. But without it I never would have achieved important social goals.

It gives me the academic qualification to be hired. It demonstrates that I can think. It helps me organize and run my business effectively. So there's the counter to your Walter Cronkite anomaly. There are far, far more stories like mine where education was THE way to help society than Cronkite's, especially in 2012 (and not 1940).

By the way, did you know that one of Cronkite's most enduring legacies is starting a ... (wait for it) ... journalism degree program/school at ASU? See, he really felt that a degree was that important.

[lumberjack_jeff]

133. No degree demonstrates that you can think.

Without a degree, Cronkite announced the landing of a man on the moon.

With dual degrees from Yale and Harvard, George Bush started a war in Iraq.

[riderinthestorm]

135. Cop out. I'll take it you have no serious answer. Good night nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

139. Sorry, you were asking a question?

I must have gotten distracted while admiring your nicely framed, "genuine, bona-fide thinker" certificate.

I find it interesting, the order in which your rank the benefits of your MBA;
1) it gives you an academic credential
2) it proves to others that you can think
3) it helps you run your business

I guess that's the difference between you and I. I don't place all that much value in 1) and anyone who can't make up their own mind about 2) isn't worth talking to. That leaves 3) so I'll stick with the library and spend the student loan payments on the business instead.

[riderinthestorm]

73. So nobody should be a doctor, nurse, road or bridge engineer, geologist, computer designer,

aerodynamics engineer, hydrologist, accountant, diplomat, teacher, museum manager, agronomist, librarian etc. etc. Anything that might involve higher education is simply a "lifestyle purchase"?

Just go into the trades and fuck health care or the civil advancement of our society?

You do realize you are advocating for our country's race to the bottom right? And this is good in what way?

People who enjoy what they do are typically the biggest innovators, the ones who truly create the next wave of productivity. For many people that means higher education to acquire the necessary educational tools. For the United States it ensures a higher quality of life for everyone: from the engineer who designs your hip replacement to the teacher who educates our children.

[lumberjack_jeff]

134. "People who enjoy what they do are typically the biggest innovators, the ones who truly create"

Like... say, Bill Gates?

[riderinthestorm]

136. Who was in college when he was inspired. Exactly.

College CAN and often is, the inspiration for great thoughts, innovation and ideas.

Thanks for proving my point so eloquently that college/university can be the ultimate think-tank. I can add Mark Zuckerberg as well for your edification. The guys who started Google too. Mark Zuckerberg's new wife is a newly minted MD in pediatrics - another worthless "student loan" debt hole although its a good thing she has a few billion to help her along so no need to go through your personal "education death panel" on whether pediatricians offer value to society vs. their student loan debt.....

[lumberjack_jeff]

137. Maybe he "learned how to think" just from walking into the admissions office.

Inspiration hit him like a ton of bricks when his dad wrote that check for the first semester, undoubtedly.

[RadiationTherapy]

34. I graduated this past December.

It cost roughly $15,000 per semester (their estimate).

[RadiationTherapy]

35. Ah, I deduce you did not read my post, but only the title.

I was confused for a moment.

[Bake]

39. My apologies. You did say that loans are a necessity.

I reacted a little too quickly. Sorry!



Bake

[RadiationTherapy]

46. No probs!

[yellowcanine]

23. Not to mention that colleges often don't provide basic information about the cost and amounts of the

loans. There are many horror stories of students only finding out how much they truly owe and what the pay back will be after they graduate. Yes, the students bear a lot of responsibility in this - they signed off on the loans - but so do the colleges. Maybe colleges should be required to provide financial advisers to students who are independent of the college administration. They could work the academic advisers to give unbiased advice to students on the best strategies for getting a college degree with the least amount of debt.

[SoutherDem]

36. So many jobs need a degree

I once heard it said this way, "We don't care what the degree is in, it could be in basket weaving as far as were concerned, we will train you on how to do the job, we just require all our managers to have a college degree".

Between jobs that need specific training and those which want the education balance that a degree shows a BS/BA.

People do feel forced to take the degrees.

The problem is some of those degrees today aren't worth the paper they are written on. Yes, those from many of the proprietary colleges but even some from major universities.

Perhaps we need to look at value of the education. If the degree cost more than the value of the degree perhaps those loans should be limited, and even forgiven for those who were duped by the schools. When I went back to college, I was 38, I was told how much I would make with the degree. I didn't know how to verify this and trusted the college. Yes, I do hold responsibility for the loans, but so do the school which promised much more than the degree will give. I am lucky, mine were government loans so my pay back is limited to my income but I will be paying on these "forever".

[treestar]

41. It's part of a strategy

I know people who took years to get through college by working their way through, taking only as many courses as they could handle with the job they had at the same time.

If there is a good job market and the interest rates are low, then the loan might be a strategy for speeding up the getting of the degree.

[snooper2]

47. If you can't afford to go to college or don't WANT to take out a student loan

There are other ways to make good money in this country---

I think this question is a false choice. Like, you have to go to college or you will be poor

[RadiationTherapy]

48. I find it suspicious you did not take an opportunity to list these "ways to make good money".

Perhaps you would be so kind?

[snooper2]

51. Setting mobile homes, skirting

did that when I was 19 making 200-400 a day---

High Rise painting-- (high risk pay)

Welding-- Underwater Welding

Rig Workers, Drillers--

DayCare Operation--

Home Interior/Exterior Design (if you are good)

Nursery Business

Window Cleaning Business

Windshield Repair/Replacement

[RadiationTherapy]

55. Thank you for this list.

[joeglow3]

57. Computers

A friend of mine dropped out of college (while working on a broadcasting degree). He went to work at a company, working on their network. He made crap money, but stuck with it. 14 years later and he is making $80,000 a year (great for the midwest) and they are paying for him to get his college degree now. The key is to differentiate between a job and a career.

[4th law of robotics]

80. Here's a few:

http://www.moneycrashers.com/10-high-paying-jobs-that-dont-require-an-undergraduate-degree/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/moneywisewomen/2012/01/23/highest-paying-2-year-degree-jobs-in-the-us/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsmith/2012/05/17/the-best-jobs-that-dont-require-a-four-year-degree/2/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/17/high-paying-jobs-college-degree_n_1525346.html

Many are even solidly white-collar.

So spend 5+ years earning nothing and accumulating 100,000 in debt for a degree that may or may not get you a job or . . get a job that pays ok right out the gate and start earning promotions/seniority right away while accumulating no debt.

It's not the false dichotomy people like to push of "college or flipping burgers".

According to the Feds only 27% of Americans have a bachelors degree. Meaning that 73% of all Americans are cripplingly poor all the time in between part time burger jobs?

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. It is a false choice, central to the college scam.

The people with unaffordable student loans are victims of that scam.

The solution is not more education paid for by someone else.

[stevenleser]

61. I do not understand the thought processes of those who are happy with the current situation.

I view it as absolutely necessary that anyone on the political left, even if it is center left, have empathy for people.

The position that one is happy with onerous loans in order to have a modern and complete education is one that is completely lacking in empathy IMHO.

Am willing to discuss this at length with anyone who disagrees with me.

[snooper2]

74. depends on what your idea of a "modern and complete education" is

[stevenleser]

86. That's pretty easy

I would expect someone with a modern and complete education to know the following:

1. In what continents are Burkina Faso, Guyana and Nepal, respectively?

2. Name at least one of the Newtonian laws of motion.

3. Which of the following are elements (note: more than one): Steel, wood, gold, carbon, water, Glass

4. Which of the following are Greek Philosophers (note: More than one): Plato, Alexander, Socrates, Odysseus, Hercules

5. Describe in very general geometrical terms what the difference is between differential and integral calculus.

6. Who were the members of the axis and allied powers in World War II.

7. In which of the following wars was the UN directly involved on one side. Vietnam, Korea, Grenada, World War I, World War II.

8. Most automobile engines have how many cycles/strokes?

9. The amount of sperm released by a fertile human adult male is generally measured in the (dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions, billions)

10. What are the general philosophies and differences between the Democratic and Republican Parties in the US.

11. Due to the chemistry of tar, this liquid is a good choice to put on a rag to remove road tar from car paint.

12. Who wrote Das Kapital and Atlas Shrugged respectively. What are the general philosophies of the authors of each work.

13. What is the difference between fiscal and monetary policy and in the US, who is responsible for each.

14. Name the elements that compose salt.

15. Scientists have determined that the planet earth is composed of multiple distinct layers. Name two of them.

16. Einstein and Schrodinger, among others, determined that Newtons laws of motion do not apply to extremely large and small objects and developed a new model to describe the motion of these objects. What is the name of this new model.

17. How many continents does the earth have? Name the tallest mountain on two of them.

18. In psychology, what does the DSM describe?

19. What are the names of the two most popular personal computer operating systems.

20. Name eight European countries and their capitals.


Given time I could put together a better exam, but I think you get the general idea. A person properly prepared for modern society and the modern world needs to know these things.

[white_wolf]

106. Great definition.

I'm wondering how many of the anti-education posters in this thread could answer even half of those questions without going to Google.

[snooper2]

140. What exactly is an "anti-education" poster?

I'm anti-4-8 years of college for everybody. It's stupid...

First of all, some people don't even have the aptitude for it. Shit, look at Sarah Palin


Luckily our workforce requires a vast variety of skills, a lot of which can't be learned with any four year degree. I would be alarmed if there was a single ivy league college that have a class where you actually learn how to splice fiber. I learned that getting a two year associate degree at a community college.

Some people just are lazy and will never make anything of themselves. That is a simple fact. For other folks an associate degree in automotive repair or AC/DC theory or any trade school will get them started down a path to a good career. And then of course society needs doctors and geologists who will need many years of schooling.

So, what is an "anti-education" poster? I remember a few years back somebody on DU told me that anybody in this country can do any other persons job. I literally LOL in the office that day to people coming over wonder what was so fucking funny

[stevenleser]

145. And that is a sad thing, isn't it?

My expectation is that anyone who has an associates degree ought to be able to answer 90-95% of those questions without looking them up and that everyone should at least receive that level of education.

The math, chemistry and physics questions all reflect discoveries and theorems that are 100 or more years old. It's not as if I am asking people to know what Stephen Hawking discovered two weeks ago. I also did not ask people to solve any problems or equations. It tests general knowledge. I dont expect people to know how to solve calculus problems, but I do expect people to know the issues that calculus is meant to tackle.

I've been to Europe around 8 times in my life. Everytime I go and talk with people, they are shocked that an American has some knowledge of the geography, history and politics of Europe. Is there any wonder why we are getting our butts kicked in international trade and business?

I dont think people who are on the "People are not forced to take student loans" side of this really understand what it is they are arguing against. I guess that is part of the problem. Those folks dont even understand the question.

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. Oh ast week our guide to Puebla

Was shocked Americans did not know of the Popo, the volcano that is active oh forty miles from the city or so. We had to explain CNN for domestic in the US is radically different from CNN-I or CNN-Español

As we joked, while we took file photos, Americans might learn of this when CNN breaks into scary Muzak and graphics, when the Mexico City Airport closes...fer the same reasons as St. Hellen's. The airport in Puebla has closed a few times already.

[white_wolf]

82. As to your first sentence.

The problem is the left isn't left anymore. Republicans have moved the national discourse so far to the Right that people who would have been conservatives 30 years ago are now center left.

[lumberjack_jeff]

108. Here's the other side of the empathy coin.

There are a great many people, working in retail for example, who are perfectly capable of being promoted successfully into managerial roles. Sadly, those jobs are reserved for brand-new college graduates. To make the situation doubly problematic, those managers straight out of college aren't making enough to repay their loans.

The line level workers are restrained from advancing and their managers are resentful, inexperienced and not applying their expensive education in a socially-useful way.

Colleges have convinced us that we need to pay them whatever they ask or risk immediate peril. In fact, mediocre private colleges inflate their tuition to stratospheric prices, then offer scholarships (i.e. "sale pricing&quot to attract customers. Because this has created a glut of "educated" people, the job requirements for even the most rudimentary of jobs is inflated far beyond that which is really required to execute the job well.

The greater the proportion of people with degrees, the greater HR managers use this as a proxy for actually evaluating individuals skills.

The only jobs that will be immune from this phenomenon are those from which colleges are intended to insulate our precious kids from.

Wanna make a good, honest, dependable living? Drive a septic truck. No student loans, no meaningful job competition, and decent if not stellar pay. People who shower when they come home from work each night deserve empathy too.

[stevenleser]

144. Very well thought out post. Here is why I disagree

If I was in the position of a director of a company and I was going to promote someone into a sales manager position, or any other position that would interact with clients and represent my firm, I would be concerned about someone who wasn't well educated.

I would be concerned because if that person interacts with a client who IS well educated and in conversation the lack of education of my employee became evident, it would reflect negatively on my firm. In competition for overseas business, I think this is a killer. I think most Americans come off as having a much poorer education than their Central/South American, Australian, European and Asian competitors.

I think that instead of us trying to make arguments for why its ok to saddle people with massive amounts of debt for having the temerity to want to be educated, or make arguments for why it is OK for people to not receive an education that properly prepares them for citizenship in the modern world, we should be trying to solve how to educate everyone to make them ready.

[lumberjack_jeff]

149. The education that everyone needs to be a citizen = secondary education

We can argue that secondary education is inadequate, in which case it may be appropriate to raise the aggregate water level of mandatory education to 13 or 14 years.

But college is optional. No matter how we try, not everyone will have an above average education. Raising the employers academic expectations (credentialism) doesn't raise salaries, nor does it create more jobs or raise the job duties. All it does is place additional costs onto workers without raising their aggregate value, and creates additional employment barriers for the poor.

When I was a business unit manager for business-to-business technology company, my education never really came up as a topic of conversation when dealing with (primarily government, including representatives from the Japanese government) clients. We didn't always succeed in landing clients, but I'm unconvinced that the reasons had anything to do with our level of education.

[stevenleser]

150. In third world countries, people say the same thing about grade school.

Grade school is not enough and secondary (junior and senior high) is not enough.

The most modern science and math taught in these grades is over 300 years old. The perception that this is adequate comes from existing in a culture that is overwhelmingly inadequately prepared for modern life and has cobbled together an existence from within that reality.

But college is optional.

Only in a country and culture that is happy to struggle and be left behind.

No matter how we try, not everyone will have an above average education. .

Define 'average'. Our secondary education is substandard according to every other first world country.

Raising the employers academic expectations (credentialism) doesn't raise salaries, nor does it create more jobs or raise the job duties.

Sure it does, because someone who has a better education wouldnt have the same kinds of jobs.

All it does is place additional costs onto workers without raising their aggregate value, and creates additional employment barriers for the poor.

Not true and empirically proven not to be true. The most conservative estimates show that a college graduate will earn $450,000 more over their lifetime

[lumberjack_jeff]

154. You're still in Lake Woebegone.

Jeff the genie just scaled down the working-age population of the US to 100 people.

About 25 of them don't seek work by choice. Many of them are stay at home parents.

Of the remaining 75, (the workforce participation rate) roughly 25 have college degrees.

It is very true that if one of the 50 workers who lack a college degree were to return to school, they would be better able to compete for one of the jobs, and will probably make a higher wage than would otherwise be possible. Enough to recoup the investment? Maybe if they are lucky.

But what happens, on average, if 10 of those workers get degrees?

In this scaled-down country, there are 65 jobs. Of those, generously, 15 are professional or quasi-professional, requiring a meaningful amount of postsecondary education. The fact that there are only 65 jobs means that about 10% of the working age population want a job but can't find one.

Nothing about more aggregate education creates jobs. "More workers = more jobs" is as false a premise as "more capitalists = more jobs". Only consumers create jobs. With that in mind, what does diverting workers disposable income into education do to their ability to buy stuff?

So, the same pool of people are competing for (optimistically) the same pool of jobs, but instead of 10 people being underemployed relative to their training, now 20 people are. They are broke, dissatisfied with their job and are less experienced on their job than the incumbent worker whom they displaced, either onto lower rungs of the economic ladder... or off the ladder entirely. This increasing aggregate level of education enables credential creep, a job which requires only a high school level of education is advertised to only holders of bachelor's degrees.

Unnecessary spending on an arbitrarily large amout of college is a disservice to workers. It increases the average cost of being a worker without raising the average wages.

If secondary education isn't doing an adequate job of creating an informed citizenry, then fix that.

[raouldukelives]

71. I believe they conspire but.

I don't believe college is necessary for an "education". Only the ability and desire to read. I do think higher education should be something we as a society strive for and that free thought is our greatest gift. We can't make wise decisions if we don't realize what wisdom is. Being trained to perform a task or trying grasp the idea of humankind's role in the universe are two totally different things.

[blueamy66]

83. work you ass off in High School

I got an academic scholarship....then lost it cause I goofed around.

Went to work for AT&T and they and the union paid for me to finish my degree.

Too many people want shit handed to them these days.

My nieces worked their butts off for their MAs and I am so very proud of them for doing so.

Use your head and figure it out for cripes' sake.

[RadiationTherapy]

87. After high school I was a scholarship earning physics/chemistry major.

My father and brother each had (different) tumors, surgery, and permanent disability and I dropped out to help. I was able to return to school 16 years later.

[grantcart]

85. My father died when I was attending an expensive private college.

I worked two jobs at the time and graduated with savings in my pocket.

I had one daughter that I would have walked on coals to fund as she was ready and motivated and did well.

I had another daughter that wasted the 4 years after high school and had she been able to go free to college then she would have wasted her time and any money she borrowed.

She has now turned her life around and this would be a great time for her to go back and if she does she would value it.

The problem with your poll is that few people are really ready at 18 to assume a huge financial liability for the rest of their life by takin a major college loan. For people that are over 25 I would make it a lot easier to get loans, for those under 25 more difficult.

[4th law of robotics]

99. Encouraging people to work random jobs

or maybe go in to some sort of national service (national guard, Americorps, etc) for a year or two after high-school may be a worthwhile endeavor.

Get some valuable life experience (living on your own, making a budget, etc) and grow a bit mentally.

Then go back to school when you're just a bit more mature and possibly more certain on what you want to do with life.

It worked out ok for the returning GIs in the 40s.

[grantcart]

100. well everyone is different. At 18 college was perfect for me. For some its not.

[blueamy66]

142. Exactly.

When I went back to school....it meant alot more.....got all As....

great post

[lynne]

95. Sorry, but no, loans are NOT necessary -

- My son is attending college while working almost full time. A few classes at a time, it will take him a while but he'll get it done. My eldest didn't get her degree until she was almost 30, married, and had a child BUT she got it without a loan.

I wouldn't advise anyone to take a loan in this current economy, especially given that college grads are going without jobs. Can't pay back a loan with dirt. AND - as many get degrees without loans - I'm not in favor of loan forgiveness UNLESS the requirements and interest for new loans are adjusted to be the same as those loans that were forgiven.

[Octafish]

104. Ever since Washington cancelled the Pell Grants VISA and MasterCard have been happy.

No one besides Corporate America and the Ownership Class get a break anymore. Can't afford it, ya know.

[Motown_Johnny]

113. Change "Forced" to "Compelled" and I can vote on this

but right now I abstain

[Liberal_in_LA]

121. kick. good poll

[4 t 4]

124. just wondering ? Why stop

at High School for a free education ?

[RadiationTherapy]

128. It isn't free. It is a collective choice of tax expenditure.

It is not free.

[ibegurpard]

138. unless you come from a fairly well-off family there are few other options

[aikoaiko]

146. forced versus "forced"

The first option is literal and second is not. Why change it up?