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What would happen if the richest people in this country were asked to pay a higher tax rate? (Original Post) kpete Oct 2015 OP
Roger That cantbeserious Oct 2015 #1
The main argument I hear.. ion_theory Oct 2015 #2
And yet we work to make sure the local population is disarmed... ileus Oct 2015 #3
do you live in america? maxsolomon Oct 2015 #25
Good riddance. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2015 #4
Exactly, and the rich people know it too.. ion_theory Oct 2015 #5
Your wording was just fine for me to understand. Good post. n/t A Simple Game Oct 2015 #14
This is why they want all the trade agreements with the jwirr Oct 2015 #17
Fine- ruffburr Oct 2015 #6
Agreed. n/t ion_theory Oct 2015 #11
People or corporations? n/t Igel Oct 2015 #8
Both. ion_theory Oct 2015 #12
Corporations are people, my friend. KentuckyWoman Oct 2015 #19
Totally agree with you assessment of the corporations and jwirr Oct 2015 #16
My g-pop was a Marine in WWII... ion_theory Oct 2015 #20
I understand what you are saying and I don't think that jwirr Oct 2015 #21
I shouldn't have said 'war.' What I meant was military action. ion_theory Oct 2015 #23
I also feel that the monster we have created must be stopped jwirr Oct 2015 #27
... Scuba Oct 2015 #7
Brilliant! smirkymonkey Oct 2015 #29
I'm still waiting for that one example... Wounded Bear Oct 2015 #9
Exactly what happened last time. Igel Oct 2015 #10
I think it depends on the extent of the increase. If we impose Social Security tax above the Hoyt Oct 2015 #13
Alot of the super rich live in America to not pay taxes olddots Oct 2015 #15
They Keep being rich Shoulders of Giants Oct 2015 #18
It would also increase charitable giving and business investment - including worker pay. n/t lumberjack_jeff Oct 2015 #22
$2.1 trillion. That is TRILLION hifiguy Oct 2015 #24
Just saying is all portlander23 Oct 2015 #26
Any bill would die in the House of Representatives is what would happen. n/t PoliticAverse Oct 2015 #28

ion_theory

(235 posts)
2. The main argument I hear..
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 09:59 AM
Oct 2015

is that those corps will just set up shop in a different country. I call complete bullshit on this for a few reasons. First, many of these corps don't pay anywhere near enough taxes as they should be already. Secondly, both the corps and individuals park a HUGE chuck of their wealth overseas in tax havens already. Lastly, the #1 reason why these corps haven't up and moved to a different country already is because the US has the largest military machine to ever exist. They need that might to use when a local population decides worker rights are more important than becoming 'modernized' and 'economic growth.' Most wars are eventually fought for monetary reason already IMO and the rich feel they have invested to much in the American war machine so would rather fight tooth and nail here to keep taxes low than re-locate and build up protection in other countries.

maxsolomon

(33,400 posts)
25. do you live in america?
Mon Oct 19, 2015, 05:16 PM
Oct 2015

because I see the exact opposite. the government has been liberalizing firearm regulations for the last 30 years.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
4. Good riddance.
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 10:14 AM
Oct 2015

Ban them and their products from American markets if they do. A vacuum will be created that will be filled by other people willing to stick around and pay the higher taxes and still get rich.

ion_theory

(235 posts)
5. Exactly, and the rich people know it too..
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 10:23 AM
Oct 2015

Demand is what really drives the economy. Those who are able to provide a good or service to people who want it will always be making money. What we are arguing about is how much money they should be making and keeping. Walmart knows that there are thousands of small business owners willing to pay moderately higher taxes than Walmart does and still make a good living. However, Walmart doesn't want that because that is money they feel they should be making. I think I worded this weird but I hope my point comes across hah.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
17. This is why they want all the trade agreements with the
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 01:03 PM
Oct 2015

international courts etc. - so that we cannot set ourselves up again.

ruffburr

(1,190 posts)
6. Fine-
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 10:23 AM
Oct 2015

Let them leave the country, Then make it so they cannot do business in america at all, Meanwhile those that believe in America can build new plants and factories and start producing American made products again, In an environmently positive way , bringing jobs back to the country etc.

ion_theory

(235 posts)
12. Both.
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 11:44 AM
Oct 2015

There's nothing wrong with people making money. Certain people have either more skill or are better at allocating those with more skill to get a certain task done, and they should be compensated for that fairly. However, when those at the top (many which inherited their wealth) reach a point where their 'skill' cannot amass any more wealth they need to essentially take it from other people any way they can. To me, the corporations ARE just a group of those individuals for the most part. Unless I'm misunderstood your question.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
16. Totally agree with you assessment of the corporations and
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 01:00 PM
Oct 2015

the MIC. I don't think we have fought a single war in modern times that wasn't about protecting American companies from the people in the countries they locate in.

And I think that was also part of WWII to some extent. If you take out the horrors of this war that would have been a legitimate reason for war and look at just the industrial and economic reasons it comes down to a war for superior standing in those area throughout the world.

And yes I know my father would be turning over in his grave because I have said this. But to me this was the reasons the corporations and the Military were so willing to get involved in it.

ion_theory

(235 posts)
20. My g-pop was a Marine in WWII...
Mon Oct 19, 2015, 07:13 AM
Oct 2015

I didn't know him very well because he never really talked that much, but I do talk to my father. When I first told him about my view of the finances of war and how there are hundreds of reasons for us to go to war "for a good reason" right now. The world has horrible ppl doing horrible things everyday. Why do we just focus on the Middle-East? Why not invade Africa and stabilize that region? Why not send 20K troops to Mexico to combat the drug lords who essentially run the country? I think you see what I'm getting at here. If we go to war for strictly humanitarian reasons, we should be at many different places than we are currently fighting.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
21. I understand what you are saying and I don't think that
Mon Oct 19, 2015, 11:01 AM
Oct 2015

going to war over humanitarian issues works much better than going to war for oil. War itself is causes suffering for the innocent victims not just the soldier.

My point about going to war for corporations and profit is that it our corporations to treat people as if they are property and expendable. We back them up in the horrible things they do just because the call themselves American companies.

ion_theory

(235 posts)
23. I shouldn't have said 'war.' What I meant was military action.
Mon Oct 19, 2015, 05:10 PM
Oct 2015

Say there are mass killings on the scale of genocide in an area of the world and all forms of diplomacy have failed. That's when I can understand some type of military action or at least some action to physically stop one groups from murdering another. Not just to stop people who we label as terrorists or governments that veer away from 'American interests.' I agree that this reasoning has been abused countless times in the past, but I just don't see how else to stop a group like ISIS from doing what they are doing. The best way is to stop participating in their creation, but putting aside that, is there really any other way to stop them other than someone, not necessarily the US, intervening?

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
27. I also feel that the monster we have created must be stopped
Mon Oct 19, 2015, 05:18 PM
Oct 2015

because of the way they act. But will we ever be able to end it now that it has turned into chaos? All that remains to happen is for all those countries we have toppled into chaos to start fighting each other and that appears to be where we are heading. In fact that is what we are calling for.

Heavens this is depressing. War without end.

Wounded Bear

(58,713 posts)
9. I'm still waiting for that one example...
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 11:13 AM
Oct 2015

of a wealthy person who was impoverished strictly due to being 'overtaxed.'

and waiting

and waiting

and waiting

and waiting

and waiting

and waiting

and waiting

and waiting

......

Igel

(35,359 posts)
10. Exactly what happened last time.
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 11:27 AM
Oct 2015

Tax avoidance, the same thing that the rest of us do.

I claim what I can for deductions to avoid paying tax. It lowers my adjusted income. My marginal rate for the upper $60k of my family's gross income was 35%. My effective tax rate last year was something like 5%. All numbers are federal income tax. Nothing state, no payroll tax, not including sales tax or fees. Without that tax avoidance, even if the tax rate for the first $35k been 0% my effective rate on my income would have been 21%.

I avoid taxes with the standard deductions for me and dependents. Child care credit. Unreimbursed work-related expenses. Nothing really unusual.

One means of tax avoidance is having my health insurance paid pre-tax. Another is by having a retirement account. A third is by having a pre-tax health savings account. All legal. All fairly standard, if you have health insurance through your work like about half of Americans do. Don't know how many have any sort of retirement account.

If not for a few thousand in self-employment income from having my MIL use my wife's online account for some pay-for-piecework job she had years ago, but which is linked to my wife's SS#, I could use 1040A or even 1040EZ. I don't itemize. No accountant or paid professional has reviewed my tax forms. Ever. I'm in my mid-50s and have been doing my own taxes for over 30 years.

When I was a kid the top marginal rates were very high. And the result was two-fold. Family trusts to spread the income over many people. That's one reason for the old "rich family" trusts and their longevity. It's a lot harder for kids to not squander their inheritance if they're given cash instead of a disbursement from a family trust. It's one reason for a lot of the large endowments: If you, Richie Rich, have the choice of having a lot of your income go to the government for what the government wants or to a non-profit for what you want, you tend to shed lots of money in favor of non-profits that support your values, goals, and endeavors.

The other result was tax shelters, to reduce income in ways that shifted its impact on your life. You find losing investments that will later, when your income is lower, produce income but reduce your taxable income in the present. You find ways to put your wealth in munis so the income you receive is sheltered. When I was a kid, lots of people talked about tax shelters. Now, not really. With lower marginal rates and a lot of ways to avoid taxes, we don't need them nearly so much. We hear about offshoring cash, but a lot of those accounts are truly huge and furthermore involve wealth, not income. We don't have a wealth tax (and if we did, while it would be emotionally satisfying to some, it wouldn't continue to produce a lot of government revenues over time--wealth doesn't continuously grow if the income stream's also reduced).

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
13. I think it depends on the extent of the increase. If we impose Social Security tax above the
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 11:52 AM
Oct 2015

current limit (essentially a 14 percentage point tax on salary, if we limit it to that), impose a 5 to 15% percentage point increase in income tax rates, a high tax on wealth, close loopholes (and some consider mortgage interest a loophole), etc., I think we'd have a serious problem.

If, however, we impose a much lower tax for SS (without an increase in benefits as the current law would require), reinstate previous tax rates plus a moderate increase, look at reasonable tax deduction reforms, and the like, we'd likely be better off than now. Plus, if we cut military budget, spend some on infrastructure, establish a health system for the 21st Century, education reform . . . . . .we'd have something. Sadly, that's more than some folks can handle.

 

olddots

(10,237 posts)
15. Alot of the super rich live in America to not pay taxes
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 12:44 PM
Oct 2015

We have become Pimplandia where the 1% can flaunt their greed and the 99% adore and envy them.

18. They Keep being rich
Sun Oct 18, 2015, 01:41 PM
Oct 2015

Hopefully the money goes to people in poverty and not our bloated prison and military systems.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
24. $2.1 trillion. That is TRILLION
Mon Oct 19, 2015, 05:15 PM
Oct 2015

held by US corporations in overseas tax havens.

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/10/6/top-us-companies-keep-21-trillion-in-tax-havens-abroad.html

At least $21 trillion hidden in financial black holes by the world's ultra-rich.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-18944097

Time to repatriate every nickel owned by Americans to this country and publicly hang the hoarders.

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