The Hard Truth About Islamic Fundamentalism

[ericson00]

Last edited Sat Nov 14, 2015, 04:02 AM - Edit history (1)

During the Bush years, it was very tempting to blame GW Bush’s foreign policy, historical Western imperalism, or both for Islamic fundamentalism. I did this myself, instinctively. In June/July 2007, a water mane exploded in NYC, people thought it was terrorism, and in my head, I said “I can’t wait till GW Bush is out of office so the Muslim world will stop hating us so much.” I myself used to think “if only we didn’t support Israel as much, this stuff and 9/11 wouldn’t have happened.” Or “maybe we shouldn’t have gotten involved in Desert Storm, as OBL said our troops helping SA was a (not the) pretext for 9/11.”

Many people hoped Obama would improve relationships with Muslims as the lead ambassador for America in the world and for the American brand. Myself and many others thought Obama putting daylight between the US and Israel would clear things up, as well as pulling out of Iraq, not talking “crusades,” etc.

However, if one thing has proven true about the world since 12:00:00 pm, January 20, 2009, its this: radical Islamist fundamentalism is independent of what party our President is, how close or unclose America is with Israel’s leadership, or where are troops are in the world.

No, I don’t think all individual Muslims are responsible for Islamist terror. I do not see ending Islam or outlawing it as any sort of remedy in anyway to this problem. There is zero good reason for Muslims to be barred from any aspect of American life on the sole basis of religion. However, the indisputable fact is that more attacks in more places with more casualties happen expressly in the name and cause of Islam than of other religions, today, in 2015, not 1315. There is a big difference between a violent act which a person who happens to be of a religion undertakes than people who undertake a violent act in the name and cause of a religion.

This has nothing to do with race or skin color. Radical Islamists come in all colors and races around the world. Look at the white-skinned Australian and his kid who beheaded a bunch of people on video. Look at John Walker Lindh, or thousands of other examples.

It is also independent of whether the country attacked is friends, enemies, or neither with Israel. It happens in France, not exactly a friend to Israel, in Syria (no diplo relations with Israel, still at war), Russia (lead opposition to Israel during Soviet times, still not too close today), China, countries in Africa (many of which have Muslim majorities), and so on. Somalia, Nigeria, etc. have nearly no links with the US or Israel yet attacks occur in such places very often.

Colonialism has been dead for 70 years in nearly the entire world. Yes, the Muslim world has legit gripes about colonialism’s legacy, and they have every right. Thank God my country, America, didn’t carve up Africa and the Middle East as Europe did. But if colonialism is the excuse of Islamic extremists, then they are babies. How about the non-Muslims of Africa and Asia, as well as South America, who number in the billions together? You don’t see groups proclaming to act on behalf of a religion in revenge for colonization.

Or the Crusades. They not only happened almost 1000 years ago, but it was nothing close to this caricature of united rich white Europe oppressing poor brown disunited Muslim world. The Crusades occurred in the context of Caliphate-European wars with mutual savage warfare and religious intolerance at hand. Ultimately, the Caliphate won in the end, culminating in taking the Anatolian Peninsula, Southeastern Europe, and nearly getting to Vienna.

While yes, Islam isn’t popular in the Western world, excuses of Muhammed drawings/depictions are not OK to be reasons for terror. Matt Stone and Trey Parker depict Jesus as a talk show host and America or Stone/Parker do not get international death/terror threats and attacks tried on them.

Just as we cannot blame all Muslims or the existence of Islam itself, Islamist groups cannot blame Israel, America, the Crusades, or Colonialism. Fact is also that in most scenarios, most people would never think that pleasing such geopolitical demands on threat of terror is close to an option. Holds for this. Jihadists are the people who get offered a hand, take an arm.

If this problem weren’t global, it would not warrant such attention. A solution to Islamic fundamentalism should occur along the lines that things like Vatican II, and other religious edicts/figures did. Leading Islamic Scholars (and in the Middle East, there are several) need to propagate interpretations of Islamic holy text that help curb the tide of fundamentalism. No, they don’t need to rip up the Koran or denounce it, but there needs to be a mass reinterpretations by religious leaders as Western societies did. Yes, I know Islam is newer than Christianity and Judaism, but old or new, religious extremists have access to dangerous weapons today, now. I don’t advocate more ground invasions. We need the Muslim world’s help. They can help us defeat Islamic fundamentalism. But no more BS excuses for it.

[CJCRANE]

1. Who funds the ideology?

Who funds the fundamentalist mosques all over the world? Who provides the weapons?

Don't want to look at the 800lb gorilla in the room?

[ericson00]

2. see, the thing is its not the Saudi gov, but Saudi citizens

and another big problem is that the alternative to the Saudi family is ISIS (and used to be Al Qaeda itself). And still, Saudi citizens funding isn't the core reason behind the ideology.

I do think we need to get off oil, tho perhaps America should've done something about the oil fields as we drew down from Iraq.

[Blue_In_AK]

3. Is there some reason why you said the exact same thing twice?

[flamingdem]

4. Salafism

Saudi Arabia an Quatar.

The Shia do not act like that.

[ericson00]

5. how about Iran and Hezbollah?

they're no better, especially with respect to Lebanon. Hezbollah also does have cells around, has conducted in other parts of the world. Iran's links to terror are rather wide, and it does fund Hamas, which is linked to the Brotherhood (and actually is an offshoot of it.)

There is tho much less Shiism than Sunnism, of which Salafism and Wahhabism is a branch.

[CJCRANE]

6. Are you in Lebanon? nt

[flamingdem]

7. Should have said less

There is money being made, pipelines at stake, it all has to be revealed but the US is stuck with unsavory allies

[CJCRANE]

8. It's a mess. Our western leaders (plus their allies) are trying to act like one bloc

to counter Russia and China but they can't tell us, the citizens, what they are doing and that they need to support religious extremism to do it.

They also can't tell us that their actions will probably destroy western civilization and the freedoms and traditions we take for granted and they're okay with that, just to get their profits and to help their regional allies.

[flamingdem]

9. Oil still rules.

That is the undoing of civilization and our dear planet

[ericson00]

12. that is a big problem, and a conundrum

because that oil is where the money comes from that goes to jihadists, but then again, the ideology behind jihadism is also a huge problem.

[SereneG]

38. Wrong

You are so wrong in reference to the Shias. The conflict in the middle east is mostly instigated and dominated by Shias. Other than the Salafis, the majority of Sunnis are secular.

[ericson00]

42. the problem includes both shia and sunni elements

as Iran (shia) not only arms shiite (Hezbollah) and Hamas (a Sunni Brotherhood offshoot), but ISIS is Sunni, as is Al-Qaeda, et.

[akbacchus_BC]

10. Are you a professor of Islamic Fundamentalism?

You need to precis your verbiage, it is too long to follow. More importantly, where did you get your ideas from? I have an idea but will get reported if I mention it on here.

[ericson00]

11. why, what's factually wrong about what I'm saying?

and this is not, and should not be a Democrat or Republican thing. That's a problem, and politically, if the GOP uses it to its advantage, we could wind up with Donald Trump as President.

[akbacchus_BC]

14. I asked if you are a professor of Islamic Ideology. Please answer the question.

Trump being the president, note lower case p, is not going to happen in your wildest dreams.

[Blue_In_AK]

15. Your post would be much easier to read

if you would delete the repetition. Saying it twice doesn't give it more weight.

[ericson00]

19. my bad, I didn't realize that

n/t

[CJCRANE]

13. The funny thing is, many of the best Islamic scholars are American.

Today's Middle Eastern fundamentalist imams tend to ignore the 1400 years of Islamic philosophy and theology and make up their own interpretations.

The OP would do well do read up some of the books written by American Islamic scholars.

[akbacchus_BC]

16. I so agree with you about the American Islamic scholars. They probably broke away

from the fundamentalists from the Middle East Plus, religion, just like economics, evolves. Look at the Catholic Church, so much has changed with different Popes, they embrace more awareness and what works for their congregation.

Having said that, I am just asking that person what his/her credentials are for making that statement.

[ericson00]

18. given how Islamist terror affects people on all inhabited continents,

one does not need to be a student or member of Islam to comment. I have observed the Middle East over the years and read several informative historical texts, but thats besides the point.

[akbacchus_BC]

20. Oh please, is that your answer? You are a fake in representing Islam or what it stands for!

Go play in another sand box.

[ericson00]

21. can you read? This diary thread isn't about Islam as a whole! Or Muslim individuals!

it is about the ideology which motivates more attacks expressly in the name of a religion than others in more places around the world with more casualties.

[akbacchus_BC]

22. I can read very well. You are just being a pretzel on here. Give it up!

You are no professor on islamic ideology! You read crap and that qualifies you to generalise a whole religion? Just go away!

[ericson00]

23. where did I generalize about a whole religion?

i explicitly did the opposite. People like you accuse those who have a nuanced approach, try to claim "racism" even tho it has nothing to do with race, its really sad.

[akbacchus_BC]

24. Where did I imply you are racist. I have no clue who you are, this is the internet!

You know what, it is a waste of time trying to communicate with you. So, let's agree to disagree and goodbye to you!

[ericson00]

17. the ones with influence are in the Middle East

given their proximity to the populations from where many of the immigrants come from, and the native citizens of those countries live. That's why their work to reinterpret things needs to occur, and with the help and guidance of the international community. I think there needs to be a meeting of leading Islamic scholars from the Middle East and world leaders, given that this is a global problem.

You can see how influential Middle Eastern scholars are here. While yea, some are gonna try to compare it with some RW nuts here, fact is here, this kind of thing is confined to the fringes of society and is not as widespread. You can find reasonable voices and reform minded people here.

[longship]

25. In Saudi Arabia you might be beheaded for such a post.

The beheadings will continue until everybody conforms.

There's your problem. It is the different sects of Islam fighting amongst themselves. Which profit is on the top? Who represents the true Mohammed? And those Jews and Christians are apostates and deserve only death. Oh! And before I forget, so do those Muslims who don't believe like me. All must die.

I am increasingly believing that Christopher Hitchens was correct. Islam is a very real problem on this planet. And yes, religion does indeed poison everything.

[akbacchus_BC]

26. I would like to comment on your post but it might be against

DU policies. Saudi Arabia is not a friend of the US. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. The blind will always be blind! Bush wanted another Pearl Harbour to open up the American economy, he said it openly and then 9/11 happened.

[ericson00]

28. I don't and didn't like the Bushes

but no, Bush didn't "want" another Pearl Harbor to "open the American economy." I have no time for conspiracy theories.

Saudi Arabia's government is a friend, but their people and much of their ruling elite is not. Also, the poster didn't say Iraq had to do with 9/11.

[longship]

32. Well, you have a good point.

But I live in a state with the highest Islamic population outside the Middle East. It is kind of ironic that the city which excluded Blacks for decades -- thank you Henry Ford and Orville Hubbard -- Dearborn, Michigan, has the highest proportion of Muslims in the Western Hemisphere, and likely the most mosques per capita.

Yet there are no terrorist attacks in Dearborn, or anywhere near Dearborn.

I say this as a lifelong atheist. It is not Islam that is the problem. It is fundamentalist religion, no matter which profit one worships. (IMHO, they are all false, but no matter.)

I despise religion. But I do not despise believers. At least to the extent that they do good. My main complaint with religion is not how they believe, but how they act. I know it is difficult to separate the two, but then there's Dearborn, Michigan, an Islamic city which is peaceful and tolerant. What more could anybody want?

Meanwhile Saudi Arabia continues their beheadings. Clearly this is not just about Islam who would kill for rendering their profit in a cartoon, or professed Christians who want gays to be put to death, or Jews who think God gave them some land.

Houston! We have a problem.

How does one solve the problem of fundamentalism? That is the problem.

My belief is that religion and government are a toxic mix. The extent that one puts them together is the extent that one gets utter insanity.

[ericson00]

27. touche! and not just Hitchens, but Bill Maher as well,

Alan Dershowitz, and many others.

Some elements of the left need to pull their heads out of their asses with respect to Islamic extremism. Aside from hurting the Democratic Party, it could hurt the country and the world.

[akbacchus_BC]

30. You forgot to mention Cheney, how could you forget that evil guy!

[akbacchus_BC]

29. What you know about the Saudis, except they were friends of George, the lesser of two evils?

[ericson00]

40. this isn't about Bush

and not everything Middle East related is.

[hifiguy]

43. Agreed. 100%

[Warpy]

31. Salman Rushdie keeps trying to point out this is basically a war for the heart and soul of Islam

and it's being fought now because for decades the House of Saud has been exporting the narrowest, most vicious, intolerant interpretation, Wahabbism, through "free schools" all through the Islamic world.

Islam has been stagnant for centuries, its scholars looking backward instead of forward. Now the whole religion will force everyone in areas where it is dominant to retreat backward in lifestyle, as well, if the Wahabs win.

[rockfordfile]

33. you sound like a right winger

[akbacchus_BC]

34. That person is a right winger, can you not guess?

[Flying Squirrel]

35. At least they're honest about it.

What about the hundreds of thousands of casualties in the never-ending war on terror, headed up by a so-called Christian nation? But not in the name of Christ, of course.

[akbacchus_BC]

36. I may be wrong but I think you are being sarcastic. Iraq did not do anything against

the US for the US to invade and kill so many people. All these retaliation against the West is a direct result of the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. It is a horrible situation now and the repercussion is not nice.

Do you ever wonder why the US and the world never intervened in Rwanda during the slaughter? Africa is a desert of no progress for the west but the middle east is a barrel of oil for the west. Money and more money makes people greedy!

I am just typing as am frustrated. After South America, it is the Middle East, when will America stop invading sovereign countries?

[Flying Squirrel]

37. I did include a sarcasm tag.

It's partly for profits and partly fundamentalist Christian mentality, not to be confused with true Christianity.

[Scootaloo]

39. The hard truth is that most of your posts is meaningless pablum

The rest is bad history, poor understanding of modern geopolitics, and the usual attempts to blame all Muslims for terrorism without looking Islamophobic.

You seem more worried with making sure that terrorism perpetrated by Muslims is uniquely isolated from history, politics, or anything else that would actually influence it (and maybe look bad on your society as a result) than you are with actually understanding what's going on.

You're taking a very complex subject, and trying to turn it into a saturday morning kid's western, black hats, white hats, and all.

[marmar]

41. Exactly. And par for the course.