It's time to prosecute those responsible for the war in Iraq

[marym625]

Executive order or not, this must not go unpunished. If there is no way around the executive order, for instance using evidence discovered since it was written, then the executive order itself must be attacked to get past it. Why is an executive order allowed to use for illegal acts that break ever single piece of legislation, treaty, etc that addresses war? We have an obligation to our troops, their families, the Iraqi people, the troops in other countries, the U.N. and the world to prosecute these bastards.

I will not stop talking about this. I will continue to bring it up in every conversation I can. While campaigning for Bernie Sanders, while collecting signatures for the CAFreeAct, while standing on the corner shouting support for Planned Parenthood, I will make it part of the conversation.

We attacked, a first strike, against a country that did us no harm. Shock and Awe, bombing innocent people into oblivion. Children scarred, burned, mutilated, murdered by the United States of America. For what? Control of oil. For money.

Planned in the dark rooms of the Bush white house. Planned for well over a year to lie to the citizens of the country he fought dirty to run. Planned using classified emails and memos to foreign leaders to lie to their people, their citizens, their soldiers. Planned with malice. Planned with no emotion, no thought to the millions of innocent people they knew would suffer. Planned with not an iota of compassion for the hundreds of thousands they knew would die.

Planned to include the "collateral damage" of young men and women from the country they swore to serve and protect, men and women that wanted only to save our country from what they believed to be a threat. Our own children, wives, husbands, parents, murdered by the scum of the earth. Over 5000 of our own, sent to die by the warmongering, money hungry devil that is George W. Bush.

And the U.S. main stream media remains silent. The silence is deafening. The silence shouts out, "we're bought and paid for."

The last lines of the song, Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye, is what I pledge to do my best to make sure it will never happen here again.

"They're rolling out the guns again, but they'll not take my sons again. No they'll not take my sons again, Johnny I'm swearing to ye"

Not in my name.

Arrest, try and convict Bush, Cheney, Powell,Wolfowitz, Rice and anyone else that conspired for that wretched, illegal war.

#Bernie2016

[Rochester]

1. K and R

[marym625]

2. Thank you

I can't help but think that what happened in Paris wouldn't have happened if we had not attacked innocent people

[tecelote]

6. Exactly.

The logic is simple. Our illegal war created more terrorists (people mad that we killed their grandmother) so we need more war to combat the terrorists. Rinse and repeat.

Cheney was an evil genius and we're still fighting his wars.

But why? The conclusion must be oil (profit). Why else?

We need to stop this in 2016 by making sure our candidates know we want peace.

I hope with all my heart but I have little faith. 'Want to bet we're still at war in 2020?

[marym625]

10. "We need to stop this in 2016 by making sure our candidates know we want peace."

Damn straight we do. And one way to do that is to make sure we prosecute every last person with blood on their hands.

In Nuremberg we prosecuted those that followed orders. Now we prosecute those that refused. So many, young, caring people, that enlisted under the belief they would be sent to defend our country, were incarcerated because they refused to go, or go back, to fight in Iraq, after learning the truth. Now they have felony records, unable to obtain a job. While the monsters that lied us into an illegal war walk free and rich.

No one ever said life is fair. But this particular inequity must be rectified.

[Dustlawyer]

143. Their profit was from the U.S. American Taxpayers!

They made their money off of the war itself, that's why it never ends.

[malaise]

3. Precisely

+1,000

[marym625]

11. Thank you, malaise.

[raccoon]

4. Well said! nt

[marym625]

12. Thank you.

[Skittles]

5. anyone who excuses IWR MAKES ME SICK

K&R

[marym625]

13. Same here. I have no idea how anyone can do that.,

Though, here, it's obvious why.

[Skittles]

120. I am not a rabid fan of ANY politician

but I CANNOT understand how THE WORST FOREIGN POLICY DECISION IN AMERICAN HISTORY gets a complete pass from SO MANY PEOPLE

[marym625]

122. it is mind boggling

And here we go again.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

20. Don't wander into GD-P then. nt

[Hepburn]

105. What got me ther other day were the complaints about the girl lying on the grave

From some, no sympathy whatsoever for her...only bitching about how it reflected on Hillary.

What the hell?!?!?!?!?! She lost her love and the ONLY grief is for Hillary????

[Octafish]

7. Will go a long way toward restoring Justice.

Traitors, warmongers and banksters all need to be held to account.

[marym625]

15. god, I had forgotten that. "money trumps peace"

Sick fucking bastard.

The war in Iraq was treason. So was the economic collapse. The End Game Memo, written by a long time and current Clinton advisor and nominee for Federal Reserve Chairman under President Obama, Larry Summers, should be the first of the banksters to be prosecuted.

Damn, that video is sickening

[Octafish]

28. Grandfather Prescott had his eyes set on Iraq's oil in 1959.

OP's a busted link now, but this chestnut has Sen. Prescott Bush's writings in "Readers' Digest"

To Preserve Peace Let’s Show Russians How Strong We Are

By Prescott Bush
U.S. Senator from Connecticut;
member of the Senate Armed Services Committee
The Reader’s Digest July 1959

MAN’S GREATEST danger, it is said, is ignorance. In a very real sense, the Soviet Union’s ignorance of our military strength may be the source of her gravest peril—and ours. Kaiser Wilhelm started World War I because he miscalculated Allied power. Hitler, mistakenly thinking he could blitz the world, launched World War II. Kruschev today lacks firsthand knowledge of our country; he may be given what others think he would like to hear—rather than an objective report on our actual military strength. Although it seems impossible that any sane person could start a war, we would be wise to take no chances.

Why not invite the Soviet high command to the United States for a conducted tour of our military might? We are bringing Russians to see our farms and factories, our scientific laboratories and research centers; we exchange dancers and musicians. Why not have their military leaders over for the most beneficial look of all? Our expressed policy, the aim and purpose of our entire defense system, is to deter the Kremlin from starting a war. What better way to deter than to show?

What we could show is nothing more nor less than the greatest military might ever assembled in the history of the world. If the Soviet high command could see what we have, they should be of our mind—that for them to start war today would be an act of insanity.

We could start in a Pentagon briefing room. There, with maps, globes, films and sound-projection equipment to help illustrate our points, we could give them a good hard look at the distribution of American power. Then we could fly the group to Mountain Home Air Force Base in Montana, where bombers of the Strategic Air Command are on 24-hour alert, many ready to take off within 15 minutes. We could see an awe-inspiring line of B-47’s, any one of which can, in a single mission, deliver explosive power equivalent to that of all the bombs dropped by all sides in World War II. We could invite the commander of the Soviet air force to ride in one of these planes, and see it refueled in the air, thus quietly demonstrating that, while most Soviet bombers would have to fly one-way missions, ours can strike any target in the world and return nonstop.

SNIP...

The demonstration at SAC should effectively dismiss from Soviet minds any speculation about the possibility of their gaining an advantage from all-out war any time soon. But we must face the fact that in a few years the Russians may be able to zero in our SAC bases with ballistic missiles. To drive this temptation out of their minds, we could show them other deterrents.

SNIP...

It’s fortunate for them that we want only peace with justice. Our entire record attests to that. We have no history of aggression, profess no desire for world domination, as do the Communists. Only by their continued menace have we been forced to take these measures for defense.

I ASK, “Why don’t we show the Russians many of these defense measures?” What I would not show them is any self-satisfaction on our part about the future, any slowing-up of plans to produce the new weapons which must inevitably take the place of the old ones. I believe we are in a continuing struggle to keep on top in this business of declaring war. I think that the Russians are never to be underrated. I also believe that the Communists are master bluffers that they seek to put us off by arrogant threats to Berlin and to the peace of the far Pacific, and, while our people are preoccupied with these threats, they may try to take over Iraq as the Chinese Reds have conquered Tibet.

CONTINUES…

The Reader’s Digest
July 1959 pp. 25-30

Very pro-business approach to mineral extraction, skipping the owners.

[marym625]

51. It's beyond any words I have.

Truly.

Thank you for this.

[Enthusiast]

139. It is little wonder the Bush boys are the way they are.

Sick fuckers.

[Township75]

8. Let's get Hillary Biden and kerry in that bunch too

As well as any.one else that voted to back the bush war.

[marym625]

16. There is no doubt in my mind, they knew the truth. n/t

[Township75]

24. Everyone is so outraged and wants so much justice until it comes back to bite their favorite

politicians...just goes to show, some people only want to give the impression of being against illegal wars, when really they are only against someone and the illegal war is largely irrelevant.

[marym625]

32. absolutely.

There's so much that we, as Democrats, have been angry about for years, that suddenly are given a pass. And while giving that pass to some, these same people are critizing others for voting to spend money to keep our troops safe.

No Child Left Behind, the Bankruptcy bill, the Patriot Act and the illegal war in Iraq, are all, suddenly, ok.

It's disgusting

[Skittles]

121. YOU NAIL IT

and it is sickening beyond BELIEF

[Hepburn]

107. +1

[geek tragedy]

95. Voting isn't a crime. Votes for the Enabling Law in Nazi Germany weren't prosecuted. Nt

[NuclearDem]

110. Minor problem with that:

...shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their attendance at the Session of their Respective Houses, and in going to and from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place.

Pesky document, that.

[marym625]

162. Breach of peace. Pesky little document.

[NuclearDem]

166. Voting to authorize a war does not constitute "breach of the peace."

http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/disturbing-the-peace.html

Disturbing the peace, also known as breach of the peace, is a criminal offense that occurs when a person engages in some form of disorderly conduct, such as fighting or threatening to fight in public, causing excessively loud noise, by shouting, playing loud music, or even allowing a dog to bark for prolonged periods of time. When a person's words or conduct jeopardizes others right to peace and tranquility, he or she may be charged with disturbing the peace.

Disturbing the peace laws are covered by state or local ordinances. While disturbing the peace is not considered a serious criminal offense, it is an offense punishable by jail time, monetary fine, or both.

[marym625]

167. The rankor and lies in speeches, citing false facts,

Or more accurately, lies, most certainly breaks the peace and tranquility of everyone in the nation.

From your own link

breach of the peace

n. any act which disturbs the public or even one person. It can include almost any criminal act causing fear or attempting intimidation, such as displaying a pistol or shouting inappropriately.

[NuclearDem]

170. Are you seriously suggesting members of the branch of government responsible for declaring war

can be held criminally responsible for voting to authorize military force?



Lying doesn't constitute a breach of the peace. Walking down the street at 2am screaming at the top of your lungs for no good reason is a breach of the peace.

I'm not having this Stalinist purge shit in my country.

[marym625]

171. lying to people to justify bombing innocent people,

Lying to use our military, our children, mothers, fathers, to blow away and be blown away, is hardly a vote.

It disturbed the peace of millions of Americans and anyone that lied to cause this atrocity, is guilty of treason.

[NuclearDem]

175. What enemy of the United States did they aid or give comfort to?

That's still not what "breach of the peace" means. Again, you're saying members of Congress who constitutionally have authority to declare war should be charged with treason for doing what the constitution explicitly gives them the authority to do, just because you don't like what they voted for.

Take this unconstitutional, unamerican horseshit elsewhere.

[marym625]

176. they caused an army to take arms against the U.S.

That's treason.

And the definition I used of Breach of Peace is correct. Much peace, of many, across the country and abroad, was breached.

That's unamerican. It's treason. It also breached the peace.

What you're saying is horse shit

[NuclearDem]

178. You've got to be kidding me.

they caused an army to take arms against the U.S.

That's treason.

No, it isn't. Not by any stretch of the imagination. I can't even believe you seriously think that's treason. I'm so dumbfounded by that, in fact, that I'm having trouble finding a way to tell you how wrong that is.

Treason is committing acts that give an enemy of the United States aid or comfort. American citizens enlisting in the Wehrmacht after 1941 would be treason. Sending money or arms to the North Vietnamese Army would be treason.

Voting to declare war or authorize military force leading to an opposing military force fighting back is not treason. That's how armed conflict fucking works.

definition I used of Breach of Peace is correct. Much peace, of many, across the country and abroad, was breached.

No, it's not. Somebody else tried this nonsense to say that lobbyists should be tried as domestic terrorists. Voting, legislating and debating are the functions of Congress, and the Constitution explicitly protects them to engage in it regardless of whether what they're saying is popular.

A breach of the peace requires a direct act--playing music too loudly, shouting, waving a gun around, or throwing a tantrum. If a Congressman starting flipping desks and throwing furniture, he could be restrained by the police for breach of the peace.

Voting to authorize military force is explicitly delegated to Congress as its responsibility. Voting does not in any way, ever, at all constitute a breach of the peace.

That is just unbelievably stupid, even by DU standards.

[marym625]

179. Obviously, you have not read SCOTUS decisions on treason.

Nor have you read what those decisions are based on.

Nor do you understand that peace was breached.

Never once did I say that the vote is treasonous. Nor do I believe it is. But the planning, the collusion with foreign nationals, the lying to cause an army to fight against the U.S. is treason.

[NuclearDem]

181. Considering you think Congressmen can be arrested for treason

for lying because Adam Gadahn was indicted for treason for being an al-Qaeda propagandist, I don't think you understood any SCOTUS decision you read.

Nor do you understand what "breach of peace" means, no matter how much you torture the definition to get it to say what you want it to. Breach of peace has absolutely fuck all to do with war, and everything to do with disorderly conduct and being a nuisance in public.

I'm done here. This is a waste of my time.

[marym625]

184. wrong again.

But definitely right about a waste of time.

[mnhtnbb]

9. You know, I saw Bridge of Spies the other night. And this morning I was thinking

I wonder if we could put a stop to some of this endless terrorism, bombing, terrorism by
offering up Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Wolfowitz, and Powell (along with Tony Blair) to The Hague to be tried
for war crimes?

And then I'd like to see the US close about 1/2 our military bases around the world and transfer
some of that funding for the military to helping countries which have been targets of our empire
building and investing some of the rest of that budget into providing education and jobs
for people at home so they don't have to join the military to survive.

[marym625]

19. It sure wouldn't hurt. The fact we have done nothing, absolutely nothing,

to tell the world, in anyway, even show any kind of remorse, for the horror we forced upon the people of Iraq, has got to help fuel the fire.

I've thought the same thing

[Stevepol]

138. Sounds like a good idea to me.

The leaders of this terrible tragedy that has brought so much suffering and hell, Bush and Cheney and his crew, should be locked away I think for as long as they can be. Let it be a show trial done to heal the wounds but let there be a trial. If we continue to lack the courage to face the truth, we will never get past it, and we will be destined to do the same thing at some point in the future. If we have the courage to face it head on, we will perhaps be able to at least partly rid ourselves of this unholy period in our history and the criminals who ushered it in. It will be a service not just to ourselves but to humanity.

[mwrguy]

154. Throw ourselves on their mercy and try to make amends

[theboss]

177. It's unbelievable how little people here seem to understand ISIS

They aren't the IRA - who were violent terrorists with a very specific, narrow, and generally obtainable goal.

[wildbilln864]

14. long past time but

we're looking forward now!

[marym625]

21. Until we prosecute, the only forward is more Syrias,

more Paris. We are to blame for so much of what is happening now in the world.

Those words make me sick. I'm with you on your frustration

[wildbilln864]

92. I completely agree. n/t

[smirkymonkey]

17. K&R

[marym625]

22. Thank you, smirky

[KingCharlemagne]

18. we're too busy looking forward to

Look back

[marym625]

23. forward looks like more Syrias and Paris.

Those that forget the past are doomed to repeat it. Looking at who is looking forward, that's one scary thought

[KingCharlemagne]

25. its the 30 years war, v 2.0. the first iteration, between protestants

Last edited Sat Nov 14, 2015, 12:19 PM - Edit history (1)

And Catholics in Europe was a particularly brutish, nasty affair. No reason to think the new version will be any nicer.

[marym625]

49. good analogy. Thank you. n/t

[Thinkingabout]

26. What is the executive order to prevent the prosecution of those responsible for the Iraq War?

[tularetom]

27. I think we may be closer than ever to actually doing something about that

First, Daddy Bush writes a book in which he essentially throws Cheney and Rumsfeld under the bus, in the process making his son look like an unwitting stooge.

Then a story comes out that they had a lot more warning than the famous PDB ("bin Laden determined to strike in US&quot , that the CIA was practically begging them to take action, and that the files are full of CYA documents from various intelligence officials.

It all makes me think that there is someone fairly close to the decision making process who is about to go public with information that will cast a very unpleasant light on the whole crew.

It will be most uncomfortable for the entire Bush administration but also for those legislators who voted to start a war with a country that had jack shit to do with the events of 9/11.

And once the connection between the Iraq war and the rise of ISIS is clear, there will be no place to hide for a lot of people. Even complaint media won't be able to keep it covered up.

It may be wishful thinking but IMO the rumbles are starting.

[peacebird]

31. I hope you are correct

[marym625]

36. That would be beautiful.

The emails, which prove a much, caused problems for Blair in the U.K., while being practically ignored in the U.S., may actually be the beginning of justice for our troops, their families and the people of Iraq.

[Ghost Dog]

140. The BLIAR is on the hook, wriggling...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7306464

Ministers who had a copy of Attorney General's report claiming the war was illegal were told to 'Burn it. Destroy it'
Attorney General Goldsmith told Mr Blair on the eve of the war that it could be challenged under international law
It has long been suspected Labour put pressure on Goldsmith to change his mind, and 10 days later he did a U-turn
Disclosure is one of the most shocking indications yet that Mr Blair and his inner circle were intent on going to war

[marym625]

157. +100

[spanone]

29. on m$nbc this am - michael chertoff and tom ridge

they crawl out from under rocks to put on the make-up and spew their bullshit.

they are never questioned about their administration's decision to go to war in iraq and if that's a contributing factor (that would be rude, eh?)

...now they are simply 'experts'

[Cleita]

34. I had to turn MSNBC off when Ridge was on. I'm watching BBC News now. It's much better

and I don't have the urge to hurl a hammer at my TV.

[marym625]

38. We have no real journalists in U.S. mainstream media

Despicable. Each and every one

[KingCharlemagne]

187. Seymour Harsh and the McClatchy pair of reporters are the

Exceptions, I think.

[marym625]

190. Absolutely, Hersh is by far one of the top investigative journalists

around. But I don't think he can be called mainstream anymore.

[KingCharlemagne]

191. oh, right. The MSM largely adhere to the Judith

Miller Approach: access to power is far more important than the truth.

[marym625]

192. Yeah, and worse. Not even access anymore. Just

talking points dictated by the powerful, aka oligarchs.

[niyad]

101. I had forgotten how ill simply looking at those two makes one. chertoff looks more like a cadaver

than ever.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. Yes. No matter how powerful, rich, or connected.

[marym625]

39. +1

[Cleita]

33. Yep that whole PNAC crowd starting with Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld need to be put on trial

for war crimes. We need to right this wrong. It was them who cooked up the idea of removing Saddam and bringing the whole ME under a Pax Americana and now we are seeing the results, endless war and terrorist attacks on innocent people.

[marym625]

40. absolutely. They are to blame for all of it.

Including what happened in Paris yesterday.

[onecaliberal]

35. Prosecut them all, I don't care which party.

Everything going on now can be directly connected to the illegal invasion of Iraq. All of this is beyond sickening.

[marym625]

43. I am going to contact the legal division of the ACLU Monday

and ask about getting around the executive order. If there is no way, then we should start by calling for the arrest and prosecution of those that are not covered by it.

[onecaliberal]

47. Please let us know what they tell you. These people should not be allowed to walk free.

What the hell will it ever take to stop the madness.

[marym625]

55. I don't know. Endless war seems to be the objective.

It's the cash cow they've wanted for nearly a century. Now, they build the armies to fight the armies that they created. The largest military budget in the history of the world, paying private corporations, building more terrorists and armies, to spend more money on weapons, to oust more leaders, to build more resistance and more armies, to sell more weapons and garner "charitable donations" to obtain more weapons.....


I will let you know what they say.

[LuvLoogie]

37. I don't think this is on any of our candidates' short list.

The investigation would likely take several years. Then you would have to consider what charges to bring to whom with what evidence. Then they would have to be served.

I don't think Cheney or Bush would show up to be arraigned, so they would have to be arrested. They would be surrounded by right wing Militias on a some ranch in Texas. Texas and Oklahoma would become an armed camp. Bernie Sanders would then have to escalate into a regional conflict.

If Bernie arrested Bush and Cheney by stealth there would be an armed march to DC.

[marym625]

44. there may be something to that. Frankly, I don't care.

I don't care if it takes decades. It must happen.

[onecaliberal]

50. The fucking republicans have spent years investigating Benghazi.

Wasting millions. An investigation that went on longer than the 9-11 commission,!which was a joke. I don't care how long it takes, millions of people are dead, more people will die. We should all be ashamed these war criminals walk free. We need investigating NOW. Ample evidence to convict a lot of them is already public.

[LuvLoogie]

84. It is going to take years of FOIA requests and cooperation from the media

To instill public will for an investigation that will ultimately need to be initiated by Democrats. I don't think we have the Democrats in Congress that would investigate without the people behind them.

I understand that justice should be the motivation regardless, but it is the American DNA to tolerate a lot of injustice. We as people will first have to adopt a more perfect notion of justice.

Cheney will not die in prison. George Bush will not die in prison. --As long as they stay in the United States. They don't leave because they know The U.S. would not send commandos to free them from the Hague.

[onecaliberal]

93. There is already a mountain of evidence in the public domain.

[LuvLoogie]

114. Granted, but you still have to bring charges.

You can bring charges in absentia I suppose, even though we would know where they are. An investigation of this gravity would consume the Justice Department. It would have to become the focus of the administration that took it on.

I doubt that any of our candidates is going to base his/her candidacy on a pledge to prosecute the Bush Administration.

[onecaliberal]

115. Considering justice does prosecute big banks

This might give them something to do.

[MohRokTah]

41. Never gonna happen and it's foolish to think it ever could. eom

[marym625]

45. I still believe in justice.

[MohRokTah]

48. Attempting to put a prior administration on trial would result in the worst injustices the world has

ever seen.

Never gonna happen and it's foolish to believe it ever could.

[KingCharlemagne]

52. How, oh wise one, would it result in "the worst injustices the

world has ever seen"????

you said it, you own it. Now you have to explain and defend it.

[MohRokTah]

54. Once you set that precedent there would never again be a peaceful transfer of power in the US.

It would end 225 years of constitutional rule in a single act.

Every administration would be compelled to round up the opposition, put them on trial, convict them, and get rid of them from that point forward. And every incumbent administration would be compelled to arrest the opposition before they would ever have a chance to do it.

In essence, the only super power on the face of the earth becomes a dictatorial regime over night if you do that. That means the entire globe would suffer under brutal police state rule by whatever party seizes power after the prior administration has been put on trial.

[choie]

60. So other countries and/or the World Court

can put their leaders on trial for war crimes, but the "only super power" who claims to be the bastion of truth, justice and freedom can't??

[MohRokTah]

63. There is nothing to put them on trial for, other than for political purposes.

You will NEVER see anybody from the Bush administration put on trial over the Iraq War.

It will simply not happen.

[choie]

80. Those are two separate thoughts

I'll deal with only the first one "There is nothing to put them on trial for" - are you kidding me? How about war crimes? Nice to see that there are still apologists on this board...

[MohRokTah]

83. Not kidding. No crimes.

Only a demand for a political kangaroo court.

Seriously, I think this bullshit is what's been the reasoning behind every Anti-Obama leftist out there.

AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!

[choie]

87. and I'll repeat HOW ABOUT TORTURE...

I think it's pretty obvious who you're trying to protect...

[KingCharlemagne]

62. No, I'll tell you about the 'worst injustices the world has ever seen." 1,000,000+

innocent Iraqis dead FOR NOTHING and the perpetrators walking around free men. That's a far worse injustice than arguable 'end of 225 years of constitutional rule." Or do you place constitutional rule above the lives of 1,000,000 civilians?????

[MohRokTah]

68. There were no crimes committed in going to war with Iraq

US law was followed to the letter in the lead up to the war in Iraq. Not a single US law was broken taking us to war in Iraq.

What you are demanding is a political kangaroo court because you, like I, disagreed with the decision to go to war in Iraq.

[KingCharlemagne]

69. Bothered to read the U.N. Charter recently? Familiar with the precedents laid down

at Nuremberg and in the 1956 round of the Geneva Conventions are you?

Nah, I thought not.

BTW, the U.S. was an original signatory to both the U.N. and Geneva. Any treaties we enter into have the FULL FORCE AND WEIGHT OF THE CONSTITUTION, since you're so into constitutional rule and all.

[MohRokTah]

71. A coalition was FORMED.

There was international support for the war in Iraq.

The UN never condemned the war in Iraq.

Ergo, international law was not broken in the lead up to war in Iraq

Just because you do not like a political decision does not make that political decision illegal.

[KingCharlemagne]

74. Jesus, you are dense. Only the U.N. Security Council can authorize any act

of preventative war. Since Iraq was never for the purpose of defending against an imminent attack it was, by its nature, preventative.

Please show me, then, where the U.N. Security Council authorized said extra-legal 'coalition' to invade Iraq.

You can't and so you won't. you stand convicted along with Hillary, Kerry, Biden and the entire Bush cohort before the bar of history, of justice and of morality. THose 1,000,000 Iraqi deaths are on your hands too.

We are done.

[MohRokTah]

78. ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE!

There was no UN resolution on Kosovo. We went anyway.

Is Bill Clinton a war criminal too?

There was no UN resolution on Grenada.

There was no UN resolution on Nicaragua.

We don't need a UN Resolution.

[EX500rider]

141. Not to mention the 1st Gulf War ended with a cease fire that the Iraqi's broke..

....by firing on US planes enforcing the no-fly zone over the north. Once the cease fire has been broken the US is under no obligation to not attack Iraqi forces.

[stupidicus]

172. I'm not sure dense does it justice

the war was illegal under US and international law, simply because there was no "imminent" threat (as is required by the WPA of 1973, what the Iraq AUMF was grounded in.has to comply with) upon which to justify the invasion/bombing.

[choie]

82. and I suppose

no crimes were committed when we tortured people with impunity, huh?

[MohRokTah]

86. Crimes? Probably.

Enough to gain a conviction? Definitely not for any administration official. Possibly for low level people who carried out some actions, though doubtful.

[okasha]

137. Hell, yes, Constutional rule comes first.

Constitunional rule protects millions
more--it protects your own freedom of speech on this board because to advocate overturning the Constitution is equivalent to calling for the overthrow of the United States government.

Go watch A Man for All Seasons, Roper.

[KingCharlemagne]

159. well, Moore, since u are such a fan of 'constutional rule' (sic), you probly

Know but may have forgotten that any treaties the U.S. becomes a party to have the full weight and authority of the Constitution behind them (the Supremacy Clause in Article 6).

So you might wish to review the U.N. Charter (to which we are signatories) for details on who may authorize a preventative war such as Operation Shocking and Awful. HINT: It ain't POTUS.

[choie]

56. Crickets....

[MohRokTah]

57. No violation of United States law there. eom

[KingCharlemagne]

67. He is an 'exceptionalist' as in the U.S. is the sole exception to otherwise

prevailing norms of civilized behavior.

Because . . . 'constitutional rule' or something.

[MohRokTah]

70. What's laughable is declaring a political decision illegal because you disagreed with it.

I disagreed with it. I was on the losing side of the political battle over whether or not we would do it. I, unlike you, accept that I lost that political battle.

You desire a kangaroo court over the loss of a political decision.

[MohRokTah]

81. The only spin I see are demands for arrests when no crime was committed. eom

[Rex]

108. He likes to defend that group of people, funny ain't it?

Pretends nothing happened.

[marym625]

58. You can believe what you want. I still believe in justice.

[MohRokTah]

59. What you are suggesting is not "justice". It is taking out those who disagree with you.

End of discussion.

[marym625]

64. "taking out those who disagree with you" That's absolutely ridiculous.

Seeking to prosecute those responsible for war crimes is not, in any way, shape or form, "taking out those that disagree." Your statement is obsurd.

Yeah, end of discussion. No point in "discussing" the absolutely ridiculous.

[MohRokTah]

72. It's foolish to think that will ever happen.

Foolish in the highest degree.

End of discussion.

[marym625]

76. I just have to point out, pontificating and then closing, is not a discussion.

[leveymg]

85. A system that perpetuates its obvious failures is worse than foolish.

It's doomed to a cycle of perpetual warfare, disunity and destabilization, resulting in eventual social and economic collapse.

Now, brush that one off, Mort.

[Skittles]

123. that attitude right there is the reason why

[choie]

66. End of discussion my ass...

you may think it's "taking out those who disagree with you" but there are laws that are SUPPOSED to be respected and followed. If leaders do not do so, they should be prosecuted.

[MohRokTah]

79. No laws were broken.

End of discussion.

[leveymg]

88. Plenty of laws were broken. Only the justice system is too broken to prosecute anyone.

Different concept. Grasp the distinction, Mort?

[Rex]

106. We know it bothers you to even think about it.

[rhett o rick]

130. I understand your devotion to the Oligarchy that wages war with our family members

but sooner or later the People will prevail. You can only push us so far before we fight back. The millions turning out in favor of Sen Sanders are tired of the corrupt political games played by Wall Street and their political puppets. Your friends with the billions to spend may be successful in pushing Clinton into the Presidency, but our movement to get money out of politics has just begun.

I am guessing you were against Citizens United until it started helping Clinton.

[MohRokTah]

131. Actually, based upon your response, you don't understand a single damned thing about me. eom

[rhett o rick]

132. Actually, I think I do. You need the leadership of someone strong and authoritarian.

Doesn't matter what their principles are as long as they are tough. You don't like open-minded people and hate whistle-blowers.

[MohRokTah]

133. I'm here to tell you, you have not a clue about anything related to me. eom

[rhett o rick]

134. You openly support the 1% and disparage those that don't. Your flyswatter

is to mock a progressive that was caught up in the purge. Those are huge clues.

[MohRokTah]

135. And that response just absolutely PROVED, you have no clue about anything related to me. eom

[99Forever]

42. I am so with Mary.

The awful tragedies these War Crimes have caused just add to need for justice for these fucking monsters.

[marym625]

46. Thank you, 99Forever.

We won't know peace until we do the least we can, which is prosecute the monsters responsible.

[moondust]

65. Um, they control both houses of Congress now.

The lockstep GOP was mainly responsible for pushing the invasion of Iraq onto the world, yet American voters turned around and gave them big victories in 2010 and 2014. They may also have a shot at winning the White House next year since control often changes hands after two terms of one party, which is probably part of the reason for so many GOP candidates this time.

That's how fucking crazy U.S. politics has become.

[marym625]

75. Absolutely insane.

Ad they've made sure that rural, right wing, Americans depend greatly on the war machine for an income. Both by having no choice but to enlist in the military for the promised, yet often undelivered, education, and working at munitions plants.

[moondust]

90. Grrrr...

I've thought for a long time that the GOP likes high unemployment because it creates a big supply of unemployed young people who may have little choice but to join the military for the benefits and then die in their crazy wars for oil and empire. Plus large populations of unemployed tend to depress wages generally.

[MannyGoldstein]

91. Everyone with a brain knows what's going on

But do we have heart enough to right the wrongs?

[marym625]

97. we don't even have heart enough to report the emails proving steps to war based on lies.

Well, the oligarchs and their msm, aka, American Pravda, doesn't have heart.

[niyad]

94. YES!!!!!!!

[marym625]

98. we have to cause action. I'm trying to figure out a course

Calling the ACLU first thing Monday.

[niyad]

99. please let us know if you get any sort of positive response and suggestions.

[marym625]

103. Will do.

[JI7]

96. i don't believe bernie sanders supports this

[marym625]

100. I don't know if he does or doesn't.

And while I hope he does, doesn't change what should be done, what is the legally and morally responsible thing to do or how I feel one iota.

[Hepburn]

102. KNR

Fuck that shit!

[marym625]

104. Thank you.

Yeah, fuck that shit

[Metric System]

109. Fine but, much like the honey badger and Janice in accounting, ISIS don't give a fuck.

[marym625]

116. no, but maybe it would stop some from joining in the future

[LongTomH]

111. I'm usually against capital punishment; but, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al, could justly be......

.......hanged under the Nuremberg principles, especially Principle VI, which includes crimes against peace (a war of aggression), war crimes (Ill-treatment, torture, of prisoners of war), and "wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity" (Remember Fallujah?).

[marym625]

117. yes, I remember Fallujah.

I don't believe in the death penalty, period. But I sure understand the emotion behind it

[cantbeserious]

112. Does That Extend To Those That Enabled The War - Like Uber War Hawker HRC

eom

[marym625]

118. if there is proof she knew anything about the lies, Damn straight

[spiderpig]

113. The Bush Family Evil Empire is up to their elbows in this

They created Cheney, Blackstone, Guantanamo, Al Queda, ISIS...

I can't go on because I'm trying to cut down on cuss words.

[marym625]

119. I understand.

I'm not. Fucking monsters

[B Calm]

124. Better yet give them a gun and send them to Syria!

[marym625]

127. they would weasel out of it, somehow

How about sending them without a gun

[PufPuf23]

125. It is past time but not too late to prosecute those that lied us into war.

Good rant too. I have nearly every day for years had the same conversation in my head.

[marym625]

128. and now that they're setting it up for more boots on the ground,

They'll get more of a pass than they already have.

Disgusted

[KingCharlemagne]

188. As Cold Case (my fav TV show ever) makes clear, there is no Statute

Of Limitations for murder.

[Catherina]

126. Oh hell yes. All of them. Regardless of party n/t

[marym625]

129. absolutely regardless of party

Though, there's very little difference in this aspect

[libodem]

136. No More Bushes Ever!

[img][/img]

[marym625]

145. Love that graphic. Yes, no more Bushes, ever.

For me, that includes those they call "family."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/05/politics/george-w-bush-hillary-clinton-jeb-bush/index.html

[daleanime]

142. Past time.

[marym625]

146. long passed time. But never too late. Not as long as they're alive.

[daleanime]

148. It would be better if they were alive.....

but even if they were dead we need to state clearly and loudly that these kinds of actions are unamerican and will be persecuted.

[marym625]

149. absolutely. 100% agree.

[IHateTheGOP]

144. Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld should be in prison awaiting execution...

For war crimes, violations of international law, and violations of the US Constitution.

[marym625]

147. definitely in prison for life.

[EdwardBernays]

150. While we're at it, can we also....

Prosecute all of those in power responsible for all the other US wars, coups and funding and propping up dictators around the world.

Americans are sooooo upset about Iraq - because it affects them - but the same sort of illegal foreign policy disasters planned and executed and paid for by the US have been affecting millions of non-Americans for decades and Americans don't seem to care.

It'd be nice if we cared as much about what out government does to other countries and their innocent civilians as we do when the blowback of an illegal war affects us.

[marym625]

152. somewhere in this thread, I talk about that

We're set up to be a war machine and everything we do is about war. Every aspect of our economy. We literally breed to have troops, as the republicans and oligarchs have set this economy up.

I am just as angry and have been for decades. Confessions of an Economic Hitman is an outstanding book about how we keep the war machine turning

[EdwardBernays]

158. It's just pathetic at this point

That as a country we can't be bothered to learn what we do and have done.

Very irresponsible.

[marym625]

161. It's by design

Not sure where your anger is placed.

While I agree we should all take responsibility for making sure we're educated, part of the plan by the oligarchs and republicans, was to dumb down America. Unfortunately, they've succeeded.

[EdwardBernays]

173. My anger

Isn't REALLY anger.

It's just frustration and disappointment.

[marym625]

174. I understand that.

[KingCharlemagne]

189. Kissinger (HRC's BFF) first! - nt

[merrily]

151. Yes, ma'am! We do.

[marym625]

153. Thank you!

[SoapBox]

155. K & R!

Very good OP, Mary.

[marym625]

156. Thank you,Soapbox.

[madokie]

160. The first step towards peace

would be to prosecute the war mongering war criminals of the bush/cheney administration.
Until we do that we will never have peace. We must push for that end. We owe it to the world, we owe it to ourselves and especially toour children and grand children

[marym625]

163. We do owe it to them.

I wholeheartedly agree. In fact, I believe I said the same somewhere in this thread.

It's exactly what they want, perpetual war. It's been designed into the fabric of our economy.

[madokie]

164. sure it is

"It's exactly what they want, perpetual war. It's been designed into the fabric of our economy."

[marym625]

165. it's sickening. n/t

[NobodyHere]

168. Should we prosecute Bernie too?

After all he helped fund the wars.

[marym625]

169. he voted to keep our troops safe.

Evidently, that's not something you believe in

[deutsey]

183. And to care for them upon their return n/t

[wildbilln864]

180. k & freaking r! n/t

[marym625]

185. Thank you! haven't seen you in a while

[wildbilln864]

193. and thank you...

I've been around here & there. Hope you are doing well?

[marym625]

195. I am, Thank you. And you?

[wildbilln864]

198. great! thanks. n/t

[deutsey]

182. K&R, but I don't believe it will ever happen

But here's to hoping.

[marym625]

186. I think if we fight hard enough, we can make it happen.

Though I don't know if the will is there, yet.
Thank you!

[Octafish]

194. Kick for the only way it's going to happen.

DEMOCRATIC ACTION.

[marym625]

196. Action! Letters to editors, calling our reps, but real protest

And nonstop on all fronts

Thank you

[Octafish]

197. The media right now are frothing at the mouth for war.

Those who remember may find it weird to see this reaction is just like 9-11.

Prosecuting the terrorists who lied (or misled - hi Judge Silberman!) America into war will go a long way toward stopping the global war on terror and the terrorists war on the world. It certainly would restore Justice.

[marym625]

199. yeah, and to see what we're seeing here, this week especially,

Makes me very sad. This is not the same place.

But, I refuse to accept defeat