I just do not understand Paris

[Aerows]

How can you indiscriminately take lives like that?



What motivates people to be so evil against people that never did a mean thing to them?

[world wide wally]

1. In a word….. religion

[JeffHead]

3. Beat me to it. nt.

[Aerows]

5. I'm still broken up about it, though

*HOW* can human beings sink that low? I don't even want to regard the people that did this as human beings.

It's heinous.

Destroying the lives of people they have never even met. The only word I can come up with is evil.

[raccoon]

19. You have just perfectly described Shock and Awe.

Destroying the lives of people they have never even met. The only word I can come up with is evil.

[BlueMTexpat]

21. + a millions or so. eom

[Munificence]

100. Or maybe

the description fits the "Doctors Without Borders" hospital?

[randys1]

105. That's it, and while not all of our sins were committed by the criminal Bush family and friends,

and while there is much blame to go back many years before them, they jump started a war against the west that they will not suffer for but we will.

They will continue to fly on private jets, live in mansions, while we struggle to buy food and die in wars.

We gotta do something about that...

I want someone to ask all 3 tonight if elected will the prosecute Bush for his illegal war.

[HughBeaumont]

33. Someone's doing the thinking for them.

Fundamentalcases are small in number but loud in action and voice.

It's sad for people of faith. Not that I AM one, obviously, but still.

[RKP5637]

47. Yep, there is pure evilness in the world. How one arrives to that state can be many factors, but

the two components IMO are predisposition and conditioning. And some feel highly rewarded by being evil. It's chilling, absolutely chilling, the murder and maiming of innocents. A constant WTF to me.

[NurseJackie]

58. 100% Agreement!

[whathehell]

14. Nonsense. Tell me bow "all religions" of western democracies slaughter concert goers..

Oh that's right, you can't.

Faalse equivalence. It's Radical Islam. Period.

[rainy]

20. Western democracies just substitute the word patriotism

for religion and kill in the name of that.

[whathehell]

35. Nice try. Lol

but that's simply a way of avoiding the appearance of contradicting yourself on your earlier "Religion =Murder" nonsense.

[WinkyDink]

62. Oh, yes. We deliberately target sports stadia, discos, restaurants, concerts.....

[peace13]

101. Hospitals...weddings....schools...

Homes...businesses...places of worship. And we don't even say we're sorry. We can take ownership of our doings. It's a shitty feeling...but it's ours. And now that it continues to blister across the globe what is to be done? Shove the genie back in the bottle?

[rainy]

112. Does murdering people not deliberately

make it less murder? Weddings, funerals children and other people generally in the way of our endless wars and occupations?

[stevenleser]

51. Christianity and Judaism have had 600-3500 more years to evolve...

...if you go back to the same amount of time Islam has been around and apply that to both Christianity and Judaism and observe how practitioners of those religions behave, you would see that the barbarity isn't very different at all.

Islam is approximately 1400 years old. 1478 years after the birth of Christianity you have the Spanish Inquisition. 1940 years after the birth of Christianity you have supposedly what had been one of the most modern and progressive Christian countries in Europe putting to death 12 million people for being either Jewish, Gay, Roma or Slavic.

Many of the very horrific practices of Sharia have exact parallels in the Old Testament, to which it took thousands of years for Jews to decide they were essentially not going to observe them anymore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_and_corporal_punishment_in_Judaism

The issue with Islam is that fundamentalist interpretations of it have not yet evolved yet the rest of society and culture has, particularly in the last 200-400 years.

[WinkyDink]

63. Can we FOR ONCE, GODDAMNIT, speak of the PRESENT CENTURY?! JHC.

[B Calm]

66. G W Bush claimed he was on a mission from God.

[stevenleser]

68. For once? I dont see a whole lot of ancient history discussed in G-D or G-DP

and I would argue that with discussion of religion, history including ancient history is bound to come up with some regularity.

[WinkyDink]

121. You DO agree that the Crusades, the Inquisition, et al. were not since 2000 CE? Did you read

the post to which I specifically commented?

[whathehell]

67. Oh please..

Enough with the ancient history apologist explanations. As a civilization, they were once ahead of Europe in important ways.

For some reason or reasons, they stopped.

In an age of mass communication, especially, there's just no excuse for this shit.

[stevenleser]

71. No, I wasn't apologizing for anyone. Barbarity is barbarity. And that includes

today's fundamentalist Muslims, 1940's Christians in Germany, the Spanish court and those who supported it in the late 1400s, and the Jews described in the bible and their treatment of other people or those who they viewed as not conforming to the law.

Applying fairness in the description of barbarity is an odd basis for an apologia claim.

[whathehell]

77. The 'Christians" of 1940's Germany were not acting on behalf of religious beliefs or goals..

Their religion was incidental.

That is not the case with Muslim extremists, they ARE acting on behalf of their religion, and there's simply

no getting around that fact without going back to the medieval period, which kind of makes the point.

[brush]

83. It's complicated all right — the Sunni v Shia rift, but W/Cheney had a lot to do with ISIS's . . .

Last edited Mon Nov 16, 2015, 04:50 PM - Edit history (1)

creation. The invasion of Iraq destroy the balance of the Middle East with their "strong men" maintaining the stability of the region.

Not defending Saddam, Assad and the Saudi royals and the rest of the dictators but they kept the Sunnis and Shias from each others' throats.

Bush/Cheney, not caring, or not understanding that that region of the world needed to sort out their own rifts over time, were determined to invaded Iraq for oil and damn the consequences.

They had Bremer fire the Iraqi army — bad, bad move. All those troops eventually became the bulk of ISIS and took over huge swaths of land in Syria and Iraq with startling speed because they were lead by professional solders, Saddam's fired generals and colonels.

Now they're attacking Europe with terrorism. This won't be the last and they've probably got plans to attack here.

It can all be laid at the feet of Dumya and evil Cheney.

[whathehell]

89. I know that, and don't deny their part in this mess..

but you can't leave out the backward, vicious terrorists themselves, either.

[brush]

91. Of course not.

I just think that W/Cheney's invasion spawned a huge new wave of Western hatred — i.e., ISIS — who dispatched those vile terrorists to Paris.

ISIS has officially taken credit for the attacks.

[stevenleser]

94. Yes, they were at least partially. They were trying to rid their country of Jews.

That is a religious motivation.

[Lizzie Poppet]

99. I disagree.

"That is a religious motivation."

I don't agree. It was a classification of people based on religious heritage, but it was not in any meaningful way based on those persons' religious actions. It was based on secular actions (or, more accurately, the false perception of those actions, based on ignorant stereotypes). There is a religious origin, centuries old, for the distrust and hatred of Jews in Europe...but the Third Reich's genocidal acts were non-religious in motivation.

[stevenleser]

104. The easy way to refute your point is to remind you and everyone of Der Sturmer

http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/sturmer.htm

Background: These are cover cartoons from Julius Streicher’s Der Stürmer. Streicher, one of Hitler’s earliest followers, published the paper from 1923 to 1945. I also include two promotional flyers from the 1930s. During the Third Reich, Stürmer display cases were found all over Germany.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Anti-Semitism of the Nazis extended to made up caricatures of Jewish religious ceremonies and beliefs taken right from the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion hoax.

[Lizzie Poppet]

108. I'm aware of that propaganda.

I'd argue that those examples of religious bigotry were intended to reinforce public support for actions taken for purely secular reasons. The motivations for getting rid of the Jews were not religious in nature, for all that the efforts to gain popular support may have contained religious elements. The motivations were secular (and largely economic, as well as to provide a "them" to counter the "us," a key element to successful propaganda).

[whathehell]

118. That was an attack based on ethnicity or "race" -- The Aryan/non- Aryan race concept.

The Nazis didn't give a damn about religion and happily did away with all Christians who opposed them.

[WinkyDink]

122. The Nazis were, in fact, occultists.

[whathehell]

125. Okay, but I'm not sure any ideology beyond

Aryan world domination was very important to them.

[WinkyDink]

128. True. The "Aryan" bit came from their belief that Iran/Mesopotamia was their true "homeland."

http://thirdreichocculthistory.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-genisis-of-ubermensch.html

[whathehell]

15. Funny, I haven't heard of lutheran or Presbyterian Terrorists slaughtering concert goers recently

An oversight on my part, I'm sure.

[rainy]

22. See my above post!

[whathehell]

36. See mine.

[CJCRANE]

29. There is the LRA and christian militias in central Africa

and Buddhist militants in Myanmar.

Muslim extremists are top of pile right now because they have billions of dollars of funding directly and indirectly.

[whathehell]

30. But not, as was specified earlier, in the Western democracies of Europe, America

Australia, which are traditionally Christian in the main.

[CJCRANE]

31. But it's our money paying for this ideology

with petrodollars and then we allow it to spread in the west.

We can either be honest with ourselves and look at the real source, or more likely look away and let it increase and increase until it consumes us.

We've lied to ourselves for 14 years of fighting a force that we are in fact making stronger.

[KittyWampus]

92. Our money? We now get more of our petrol from Canada.

And it's asinine how DU'ers refuse to put the blame on the Arabs/Muslims funding this.

[whathehell]

38. I would expand on your explanation regarding Muslim extremists..

on their 'top of the pile" position isn't just about funding - It's also because their

extremist religious views have been encouraged by their non-democratic governments.

[CJCRANE]

39. Iraq, Libya, Egypt and Syria were all secular. The muslim fundie countries are mostly our allies.

That's where the funding comes from.

[whathehell]

43. They may be secular, but they're not democracies and at this point,

Europe is a bigger client of Saudi oil than we are.

[CJCRANE]

46. But I refuted your point. Muslim fundamentalism was not encouraged in Iraq, Libya, Syria or Egypt.

Saddam kept a tight lid on fundies even peaceful ones. Christians were accepted - his second in command was a christian.

Gadaffi, Mubarak and Assad also accepted christians and religious minorities and kept a lid on fundies.

[whathehell]

49. Not so much..

Intolerance, whether promoted by dictators or not, flourishes more easily in anti- democratic states.

[CJCRANE]

53. But the problem of muslim fundamentalist extremism and terrorism was much less under their rule. nt

[whathehell]

60. I'm not denying the part the Bush administration, especially, has played in all this..

I'm just not exempting the extremists and their governments either.

[Drahthaardogs]

40. Nonsense. Muslims have been doing this FOREVER...like since 625 A.D.

They are an ethnic cleansing and imperialistic religion. From the sacking of Constantinople to 9/11 to this ridiculousness yesterday. They are responsible for it.

[CJCRANE]

44. Muslim fundies were under control in Iraq, Libya, Egypt and Syria.

They were all secular countries for much of the 20th Century.

We created the Mujahidden holy warriors in the 80s to fight the godless commies. And right now we're supporting them in Syria.

[Drahthaardogs]

57. The Iranian Shaw came after us because we had the audacity to give medical treatment to someone he

wanted to kill.

Not to say our policies in the Middle East have not perpetuated a fair amount of this, but I am not going to let you sit there and pretend the peace loving Muslims were incited into war by the western world. They have quite fragile egos and get upset pretty easily.

[choie]

69. Ever hear about our role in overthrowing

Mossadeq of Iran? THAT'S one of the reasons the Iranians were anti-American....history is your friend...

[Drahthaardogs]

80. Or, maybe,

Muslims like wars.

I read lots of history, and you know what one common theme throughout the history of the world? Muslims conquer and destroy when and where they can. They are imperialists.

[hifiguy]

132. This.

But the ME proper (Iranians are the descendants of Persians, not Arabs) has been a slaughterhouse ever since the Sunni/Shia schism save for the era when the Ottoman Peace was enforced in Turkish controlled or allied areas. And IIRC the Turkic peoples originated in Central Asia IIRC. Centuries-old religion-fueled blood feuds are the very woof and warp of much of the culture in the region.

It has always been a place where tribalism and nutbar religion override all other considerations. All Bushco did was give the ever-boiling hornets' nest a decidedly unneeded kick. But it has been the world center of mindless butchery for more than a thousand years. The main difference between then and now is that they have modern weapons instead of camels and scimitars.

[Art_from_Ark]

82. Say what???

The Shah of Iran, Reza Pahlavi, was installed in a coup that was supported by the US in 1953. Although the Shah was secular, he had a secret police called the SAVAK that was responsible for numerous human rights violations. In 1979, the Iranian Revolution overthrew the Shah and installed the Ayatollah Khomeini as the theocratic leader of Iran. The Shah, who was in ill health, fled Iran. Henry Kissinger, who was not Secretary of State at the time, persuaded President Jimmy Carter to allow the Shah into the United States for medical treatment. Carter reluctantly agreed. The Iranians demanded that the Shah be returned to Iran for trial. The United States refused, and in retaliation, the Iranians overran the US Embassy and held embassy workers captive for more than a year.

[Drahthaardogs]

85. Exactly,

They retaliate on a ridiculous level. ALWAYS.

[stevenleser]

97. Exactly? You had it wrong. nt

[stevenleser]

96. The Shah is the person that came here for treatment. The Ayatollah and his followers were the ones

who were upset at us for that.

[Drahthaardogs]

117. I typed it wrong, but know the story, but the point is

Muslims get butthurt over EVERYTHING. Cartoons, not extraditing someone, perceived alliances, etc. The bottom line is THEY want an ethnic cleansing of non-Muslims. Convert or die is the law of the land.

[choie]

133. Yeah because he was a damn tyrant...

n/t

[CJCRANE]

28. Nazis, Bolsheviks, Khmer Rouge, Hutu fighters in Rwanda...

Religion doesn't have a monopoly on violence.

It's just the latest flavor of radicalism.

[katsy]

74. ^^^this nt

🇫🇷

[Catherina]

75. Religion has nothing to do with it

Last edited Sat Nov 14, 2015, 12:21 PM - Edit history (1)

[bananas]

79. Great quote, sad to see so many don't get it. nt

Last edited Sat Nov 14, 2015, 11:20 AM - Edit history (1)

[earthside]

84. Bunk.

Western imperialism was/is rationalized by evangelical/catholic Christianity.

Of course, religion being the reason for all wars and conflict is not 100 percent -- there is fanatical politics, which actually shares many traits with religious extremism.

[Catherina]

88. Thanks. Don't want to get it n/t

[snooper2]

86. right on cue...I guess them screaming "Allahu Akbar" means "I hate Soccer" now

[KittyWampus]

93. the ones screamin "Allah Akbar" aren't the ones who make plans. They're the useful idiots

manipulated via religion to benefit others seeking political power.

You confuse the stick to the hand wielding it.

[snooper2]

95. Oh, not at all, religious brainwashing three times a day since birth

So the old fundie men can have multiple wives, fuck 14 year old brides, and stone people who don't agree with them...

[Myrina]

106. + a brazillion

Thank you.

[world wide wally]

110. Be honest.

Do you think these wackos were budding politicians?

[Catherina]

113. Sorry. Totally uninterested in some back and forth go nowhere discussion n/t

[Igel]

81. Narrow answer.

You got the same kind of attitude among secularists and atheists in the late 1800s and into the 1900s.

Two parts:

1. A conviction that your way is the one true way and that everybody else, for their own good, must adopt it.

2. A conviction that causing them to adopt that one true way is, at least in part, your responsibility and obligation.

That may mean viewing the actions as revenge to stop something negative or coercion to force something "positive."

Either way, this is often "evil" because those doing these things are convinced that they are doing good, however they define it, and are acting for the good of their community or the good of mankind.

Religion is a common motive--"adopt my religion as the one true way" because "I'm doing God's will". Not always, to be sure. Baader-Meinhof, FARC, or SLA weren't exactly into theism. Nor were Pol Pot, the promulgators of the Cultural Revolution or the GULag system.

[KittyWampus]

90. More than that, for some it's suicidal impulses that've been harnessed

by others for political reasons. Religion can just be the sort of skin covering the bones.

[backscatter712]

127. Christopher Hitchens was right. Religion poisons everything. n/t

[JeffHead]

2. Religion. nt

[Aerows]

4. In the words of Voltaire

Those that can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

[RKP5637]

48. That, is the bottom line of it all!!! ... believing absurdities can make one

commit atrocities.

[Warpy]

6. It takes total faith in your inability to be wrong about anything

Screwball religion or crackpot politics also help.

[Aerows]

7. But dammit

*WHY*?

[Warpy]

8. Angry men, usually young ones, are given a direction in which to vent their anger

They're easily manipulated.

[Aerows]

9. What in the hell

is this world coming to?

[The2ndWheel]

10. Coming to?

Human history is violence. That's how we figure out who gets to make the rules.

http://www.context.org/iclib/ic07/schmoklr/

The new human freedom made striving for expansion and power possible. Such freedom, when multiplied, creates anarchy. The anarchy among civilized societies meant that the play of power in the system was uncontrollable. In an anarchic situation like that, no one can choose that the struggle for power shall cease. But there is one more element in the picture: no one is free to choose peace, but anyone can impose upon all the necessity for power. This is the lesson of the parable of the tribes.

Imagine a group of tribes living within reach of one another. If all choose the way of peace, then all may live in peace. But what if all but one choose peace, and that one is ambitious for expansion and conquest? What can happen to the others when confronted by an ambitious and potent neighbor? Perhaps one tribe is attacked and defeated, its people destroyed and its lands seized for the use of the victors. Another is defeated, but this one is not exterminated; rather, it is subjugated and transformed to serve the conqueror. A third seeking to avoid such disaster flees from the area into some inaccessible (and undesirable) place, and its former homeland becomes part of the growing empire of the power-seeking tribe. Let us suppose that others observing these developments decide to defend themselves in order to preserve themselves and their autonomy. But the irony is that successful defense against a power-maximizing aggressor requires a society to become more like the society that threatens it. Power can be stopped only by power, and if the threatening society has discovered ways to magnify its power through innovations in organization or technology (or whatever), the defensive society will have to transform itself into something more like its foe in order to resist the external force.

I have just outlined four possible outcomes for the threatened tribes: destruction, absorption and transformation, withdrawal, and imitation. In every one of these outcomes the ways of power are spread throughout the system. This is the parable of the tribes.

[longship]

13. They get 43 raisins.

Sorry. All those dudes who mistakenly told you virgins, were wrong. Here are your raisins. Enjoy them for your much shortened eternity. BTW, what kind of kook believes that they were virgins? Nope! Raisins. I suggest that you eat them slowly.

[mdbl]

24. Religious nonsense causes these killers to cross over into the twilight zone

Especially the suicide bombers. They are mentally unstable from a weird indoctrination that tells them they will be rewarded for their twisted violence.

[Quantess]

16. Muslim Extremists.

[JonathanRackham]

27. Evil Exist

Not limited to one religious group, one political group, one group.....

Evil can exist in the heart and mind of one person with cataclysmic results.

[Quantess]

32. Really? What other religions were involved in recent terror attacks?

I think I understand what you're trying to express, that humans in general have the capacity for evil, which I fully agree with.
But right now, it's ALL on the muslim extremists.

[whathehell]

45. Thank you

Getting tired of the false equivalence.

[JonathanRackham]

65. It's historical.

Humans have been this way for 5000 years.

[Quantess]

72. Understood, but as of lately, terrorists have been muslim extremists.

[mmonk]

17. It's too bad the human species can't evolve past killing.

[yuiyoshida]

18. Cnn right now is claiming that

Isis is taking responsibility for the attacks.

[Scootaloo]

23. Absolutism

The belief that you, and those you associate with are absolutely right, and that everyone outside your chosen "tribe" is absolutely wrong. Seen through this polarizing lens, it's easy enough to fall into the belief that 'those people" aren't people. or worse than non-people, they're some sort of subhuman threat.

It is an amazingly easy outlook for humans to fall into.

[Yo_Mama]

25. Ideology. Non-humanistic ideology. n/t

[randome]

26. Some of us retreat into cause and effect, thinking these acts don't occur on their own.

Thinking there is a linkage between our meddling in the Middle East and Paris. But there isn't. Horrific acts like this occur on their own. The evidence is that not a single one of these monsters has claimed retribution for any offenses during past decades/centuries.

As observers, we are traumatized, as well. Not nearly as much as a Parisian, of course. But it's trauma, nonetheless. And we search for a reason because there must be a reason. But often there is not. At least nothing we can understand.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Smarmie Doofus]

37. "Meddling" seems an odd and loaded term.

Is that what Iraq (2002 to present) was/is all about?

We're "meddling"?

[randome]

76. No, Iraq was a war crime. Has anyone attributed that to the Paris attacks?

Other than those, like us, on the outside looking in?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[CJCRANE]

41. What about Russia's meddling in Syria? Did or will that have any repercussions? nt

[randome]

52. Paris is easier to attack.

ISIS claimed the attacks were because Paris is "a capital of prostitution and obscenity". Pay-back has absolutely nothing to do with this.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[CJCRANE]

55. So what about the Russian plane. Why was that attacked? nt

[randome]

59. Same thing. It's easier to smuggle a bomb on board. ISIS goes after low-hanging fruit. Always.

The terrorists in Paris apparently had weapons smuggled in -iow, a man on the inside. Planting a bomb on a plane no doubt required that, as well.

They are not at war with anyone but themselves because they don't dare confront their supposed 'enemy' directly.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[choie]

73. Wasn't a Russian plane

just blown up?

[mythology]

34. I think that the people who do this would disagree about the innocence of those harmed

They would argue about violence against Muslims in general and probably about how Muslim immigrants are treated in France. I'm not saying they are right, but they believe themselves to be.

[DinahMoeHum]

42. The most dangerous weapon on this planet is not nukes.

It is an educated, unemployed, marginalized, angry young man.
Add religion and rhetoric to this, and you have a lethal killing machine.

One definition of terroriam: Humane grievances inhumanly expressed.

[99Forever]

50. I too, cannot wrap my head around this.

[redgreenandblue]

54. Well, if Chris Kyle were alive you could ask him.

I think, in essence, it takes a complete and utter inability to give a fuck. In other words, a psycopath.

[TBF]

56. They think they are being targeted -

whether it is their view that Israel is taking their homeland, or that multi-national corporations are taking their resources. And if we are honest there is some truth in the losses they are feeling on those larger points. Whether that leads someone on a campaign of violence - well, it can if people get together and this is the best way they can think to respond. Whether rightly or wrongly they feel under siege and that Westerners are the problem.

This has been going on for decades and has only intensified. I'm very happy we have President Obama sitting in the White House today and not any Bush ... I truly have no clue how he should respond, but I do trust that he will make good choices. Or at least better than most would.

((hugs))

[randome]

64. ISIS has not claimed any of this was in retribution.

They said Paris was attacked because it is "a capital of prostitution and obscenity". So where is the retribution?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[TBF]

87. That is the response to "why Paris" -

it is not the underlying reason that has caused this mindset over the decades. These are not people who decided on a whim to attack one random city. Ignoring the entire history does not help anyone and in fact is quite disingenuous.

[randome]

102. This mindset over the centuries, you mean.

This part of the world has been on murderous rampages long before the West ever came to power. Still no excuse for targeting innocent civilians -including children- and claiming it is because you want to establish your own religion to rule over all.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[TBF]

107. I can't disagree with that. nt

[JI7]

115. ISIS also said nothing during the Israeli Gaza thing last year

[WinkyDink]

61. Paris? Do we not recall Rome airport? Bologna's train station? The Bali disco? Need I go on?

[Chathamization]

70. Angry, lost young men are dangerous; we've been averaging almost a mass shooting a day in the U.S.

We've gotten so used to the attacks when they come from "good, all-American" guys that something like the Umpqua Community College shooting is virtually forgotten a month later.

Of course you can expect the bigots to ignore all the other attacks and say only Muslims do this.

[librechik]

78. Westerners perform atrocities against Others on a daily basis--without a clue they are doing it

they really only think about themselves and everybody else is a puny annoying Other. The terrorists are desperate to wake us up about our actual offenses so we can make amends and they can live like humans rather than animals.

I know some will hate what I am saying. They might say I am supporting the terrorists. No. But the West has to wake up somehow. Just ignoring the problem is not working.

[MineralMan]

98. Fanaticism.

Religion, politics, whatever. Fanatics of many things act in incomprehensible ways.

[RKP5637]

103. Exactly, the core of it all is fanaticism, no matter what it's cloaked in. n/t

[GoneFishin]

109. Wow Aerows. Your OP really brought out the right wing crazy in a few people.

[alarimer]

111. hideous, backwards, barbarian ideologies

from the 12th century, partially, but not wholly, based on religion.

Ultimately we must fight for true liberal values around the world. I do not believe in cultural relativism. Some things are just wrong, no matter where they occur or who perpetuates them. Whether it is the treatment of women as second class citizens in Christian religions or in the Middle East. It is wrong, full stop.

But it also means the promotion of a diverse, multi-cultural society in which everyone has the right to believe as they wish and speak out as the wish without violent retribution for doing so. These barbarians don't want that either. They want everyone to be subject to their ideology or be killed as apostates.

Make no mistake, this was as much an attack on liberal values and a free society as much as anything else and it should not go unpunished.

[Quantess]

124. Come to Europe!

I mean that most sincerely.

[Arugula Latte]

114. Rejection of Reason in favor of Mythology and Superstition

Last edited Sat Nov 14, 2015, 07:43 PM - Edit history (1)

i.e. Religion, coupled with our invasion of Iraq and destabilization of the Middle East.

[WinkyDink]

123. I believe the "rejection of Reason" would apply to the Middle East, not to the countries of the

Enlightenment.

[agnostic102]

116. unfortenately

crazy religious people will find ways to kill for there beliefs. as someone who grew up in the middle east. i saw it all to often. thats why i joined the forum with my name. i wish there was a way to believe or not believe in god and not have religion a part of it. i feel like spirituality should become the new major "religion" if you will.

[Waiting For Everyman]

119. Bullies don't need a reason.

The "reason" is just rationale and cover story for what they'd be doing, regardless of any reason, anyway. The "reasoning" is a diversion, to lead off in a direction away from the fact of it: pure delight in aggression, destruction, and exercising power (including life and death) over others.

They're psychopaths. But the Islamic strain today is virulent in that it spreads. It is a cult of killing... of, by, and for killers.

[Blue_In_AK]

120. I was reading an interesting article today

posted by a good friend on Facebook. I'm not finished with it, as it's quite long, and I'm not sure if I agree with everything, but it does seem that the author has researched this and can explain the "religious" component of ISIS's appeal. According to the author, they seriously do want to take the world back to the earliest days of Islam and consider that they are waging a holy war against the evils of modernization. It's mass delusion, of course, but they really believe it. They are apocalyptic, like some of our evangelicals, and believe that the end is upon us. Apparently it's their job to rid Islam of heretics (i.e., Shia) and enslave Christians and other heathens.

I had been inclined to discount the religious component and just assumed these were disaffected murderous thugs, but I'm not so sure that's the whole story. I think the modern Muslim community must deal with this, and I don't think we can help by arming this or that group of "rebels" when the arms invariably fall into the wrong hands. I don't know what the answer is, but somehow this group has to be marginalized and hopefully by the world's Muslims who are the ones who should be most concerned. They are the ones dying in disproportionate numbers at the hands of these fanatics.

I guess religious fundamentalism has appeal to certain types of individuals, no matter where they live or what culture they're immersed in. We're lucky that we have laws and civil rights and that our own religious right doesn't often use these tactics (aside from killing abortion doctors and so on). With their oppressive ideas, some of them might like to, and they do seem to be growing bolder, but we have legal protections to keep them largely at bay.

Anyway, here's the link to the article.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

[hifiguy]

131. They are quite literally Iron Age barbarians,

who loathe and despise everything about the modern world except the weaponry, explosives and vehicles.

The modern equivalent of the Huns, Visigoths and Vandals, they want to destroy civilization simply because it exists.

Sweet reason is not going to be a viable option for dealing with them. Isn't it the Russians' turn to step in with massive force (and possibly some tactical nukes) against these monsters in semi-human form?

Religious fundamentalism has always had the most base of appeals - any atrocity committed because an Invisible Man In The Sky wants it done is by definition gawd's will and not an atrocity. To the contrary, TIMITS approves very much.

The "holy books" always set the poetical passages not far from those demanding the annihilation/enslavement/rape/torture/forcible conversion at swordpoint of the unbelieving heathens. And they always have.

Religion is bullshit.

[hifiguy]

129. Their Invisible Man In the Sky told them

it is their duty. And they always do what he tells them to.

Flat out clinical insanity, IOW.

[Aerows]

130. No kidding, my friend.

It's just freaking nuts to me.