Do you want vengeance or peace? Because you cannot have both

[nadine_mn]

First let me say the obvious...my heart goes out to everyone in Paris. I cannot imagine the horror, fear and sadness that is being felt.

Secondly, I completely understand the desire to bomb the shit out of whoever did this (which at the time of this post, ISIS has claimed responsibility). You hurt me or someone I love, I will hurt you.

But cannot we all acknowledge by now that violence, esp against groups like ISIS and Al Queda, only fuels more violence? Boots on the ground, bombings, drone attacks...that has done nothing to stop this war. This is not like previous wars where both sides had something to lose.

Attacking terrorists has really only resulted in two things...horrific loss of life and justification for the attacks on the Western world. There has been no better recruiting video for ISIS than the nightly news.

Terrorists don't fear death, many welcome it because they feel they will be rewarded in the afterlife. We aren't going to scare them into stopping violence by threatening to bomb or send in troops...because that is exactly the response they want.

And of course, the more people start broad brushing all Muslims as terrorists and spewing bigotry, the easier it is to recruit more terrorists. We start to live up to their propaganda.

Thousands of soldiers and innocent civilians have lost their lives or had their lives completely shattered by the "war on terror". It's not working, and we owe it to the memory of those lost to do better.
I do not know the answer to how to stop the terrorists. I only know that our current strategy isn't the solution. My fear is that a knee jerk reaction of violent retaliation (which again, I completely understand and if I were a Parisian I would probably be completely advocating for) will only create more horrific nights like last night.

[Kalidurga]

1. My heart is torn

I hate war. I hate it a whole lot. I think it does everything you claim and more. But, I have dealt with bullies my whole life and yes on two occasions a bully used a weapon that could have been deadly a knife once and on the other. Standing down does nothing to make them stop being bullies. We have the same situation here re bullies extreme conservatives that make the lives of out groups miserable even to the point of passing draconian laws, standing down with them doesn't work either. I have no solutions at this point just making an observation in regards to people with a bully mindset.

[GoneFishin]

32. 1000% correct. When Democrats "ignore" rightwing bully bullshit it encourages them.

It's why the Republican party has been taken over by wack-a-doodles which grow batshit crazier every day. No Democrats call them out on their insanity.

Always afraid to draw attention to themselves, Democrats have been discrete and polite rather than calling out the crazies and saying "You are nucking futz and you are going to get a lot of innocent people killed."

[MannyGoldstein]

5. Are you implying that the OP suggested this?

I don't see that.

[hobbit709]

6. People with that kind of mindset won't stop with just that.

[Igel]

18. They have in the past.

Not much civil war and such in Saudi Arabia.

Those who are attacked and killed resist. The Borg are very much at peace among themselves, unless there's outside meddling.

[snooper2]

30. Apparently you can live as a Jew in a Caliphate as long as you pay a big tax

It's in their "holy" book

[redwitch]

17. Assimilate. Resistance is futile.

Our Borg enemy. Isis needs to be ended. There is no good and kind solution to their madness. The world cannot just hope they go away on their own.

[FLPanhandle]

7. The world isn't black or white. Vengeance or Peace. That's for bumper stickers

Sometimes force is required. Sometimes hard choices need to be made. Usually the answer is a multi faceted. Part force, part diplomacy, part working on underlying causes.

The world is too complicated for simple bumper sticker choices.

[nadine_mn]

31. I am sorry you see it as so black and white

Reaction has been to meet violence with violence. I am not saying some force may not be necessary, what I am saying is that what we are doing isn't working

Blindly attacking doesn't work. There needs to be a different way of thinking..simply bombing the bad guys is not a strategy.

But it is tempting when your country has faced terror...to get revenge. The goal should be peace IMO, not retaliation. I am asking for a change in thinking.

[Fairgo]

71. The dichotomy is not black and white

It's complex vs simple. Violence is the simple answer to a complex problem...and it doesn't work unless you kill everyone. Then the only peace you have is that of the grave. But simplistic thinkers will not grasp the difference.

[GliderGuider]

72. +1 nt

[Marr]

73. +1, Fortune cookie wisdom isn't productive.

This is a complex problem that doesn't have a clean solution, but must nonetheless be engaged.

[Skittles]

74. usually

the people who say force is required never bothered to actually serve

[marble falls]

10. I wonder if Conservatives will be putting French Fries back on the menu?

[tecelote]

11. Thank you for a sane reply to this mess.

"But cannot we all acknowledge by now that violence, esp against groups like ISIS and Al Queda, only fuels more violence?"

If someone bombed your house and killed your mother, would you decide the bombers were righteous and join their side or would you fight back? We have to stop the bombing and begin diplomacy.

[99Forever]

12. I share in your view.

What we have been doing has clearly only made matters worse, but I have no real idea of how we change this dynamic now.

I dread to think of just how this feeds the War Machine's unquenchable thirst for more violence and wasting of our precious resources on playing whack-a-mole.

[Mister Ed]

13. I simply want them found and stopped.

By way of comparison: sometimes - all to often - we read of an unknown criminal committing a string of rapes and murders. When that happens, I want the criminal found and stopped, and prevented from ever, ever harming anyone again.

I do not feel the rage and hatred toward him that others may justifiably feel. I do not thirst for vengeance. I only feel a cold, intense desire that he be found and stopped.

I do not care how he is prevented from harming anyone again. Some may wish that he be put to death once convicted. Others feel it's wrong to kill him, and prefer that he be caged for life. I have no quarrel with either of those groups. Kill him, cage him, I do not care. I only care that he be prevented from harming anyone again.

If he has partners in crime, then I want them found and stopped as well. I would hope it would go without saying, though, that I do not want harm to come to his family, or his neighbors, or to innocents who may resemble him.

And so it is with the terrorists of Paris. I want them rooted out and stopped. I want those who are in league with them found and stopped. And I understand that what happens to them may not be pretty.

But what happens to them must not spill over onto their families, or their neighbors, or people who resemble them. It would be better to have no justice at all than to have that horrendous injustice, which, as the OP declares, can only fuel the cycle of violence.

[CBGLuthier]

14. We can want peace all we wish but if ISIS insists on vengeance we are foolish children hoping

for peace. Turn the other cheek and those bastards will bloody it too.

[Depaysement]

15. That isn't a convincing argument

without specifying an effective way to prevent future attacks.

[Marengo]

16. The reality of the world is that some folks just need killing...

The Daesh, collectively, falls into that catagory.

[KingCharlemagne]

21. Lets just dispense with such niceties as due process, shall we? /sarcasm/ - nt

[geek tragedy]

41. Is this a parody account?

No rational person would think that a foreign enemy who is actively waging war against a country can't be met with force in response.

We didn't hold the Nuremberg trials before WWII.

[KingCharlemagne]

43. Are you a parody of Sophocles? I take it

You agree with the statement "Some folks just need killing"?

[geek tragedy]

44. Yes, as does anyone who has ever taken a history class and who is

in full possession of their mental faculties.

The Nazis who invaded other countries? Needed killing.

Imperial Japan's armed forces? Needed killing.

Daesh? Need killing.

[KingCharlemagne]

45. and what about those 500,000 Iraqi children during the 90s? Did they also

need killing? Please proceed.

[geek tragedy]

47. No, of course not. You should take a remedial course in logic

if you aren't running a parody account.

"Some XYZ" does not imply "All XYZ"

[KingCharlemagne]

51. you might wish to take a remedial course in the

Development of western jurisprudence, esp. the section on due process. Or are you going to designate yourself as the person who decides who 'just needs killing?

[geek tragedy]

53. I have a law degree, and it is patently obvious you have no idea what due process

actually means, and instead are talking about it as though you were a rightwinger's caricature of lettering pacifists.

[KingCharlemagne]

56. sure you do - nt

[Marengo]

77. Your welcome to serve arrest warrants to the Daesh soldiers in their fighting postions...

Due process on the battlefield?

[KingCharlemagne]

79. please show me where the U.s. Congress has declared war. Until then you should probly

Edit your use of the term 'battlefield.'

[Marengo]

86. Only in cloud cuckoo land is it not a battlefield...

And only in that same rarefied atmosphere is this not a war.

[DAngelo136]

19. For those of you say "They have to be stopped"...

I have the following questions for you:

* What tactics will you use? Violent ones or non-violent ones?

* If you choose violence (force), where will you use it? On whom?

* Will YOU be volunteering? Or will you send someone else, instead?

* How long are you willing to carry on this operation? How much are you willing to spend to do it?

* What will constitute "victory"?

These are the questions we have to ask before any actions are taken on our behalf and in our name.

[KingCharlemagne]

22. excellent questions. to which I would add only: if you

Choose violence, will you accept that your enemy can also choose to strike at a time, place and manner of his or her choosing?

[randome]

24. Since ISIS' goal is a caliphate across Europe, I doubt that leaving them alone will work.

As for defining 'victory', how about killing or imprisoning anyone who, by word or deed, claims to be part of this fundamentalist death cult? It's time for other Middle Eastern nations to step up and declare this more loudly. They are reluctant to do so because they are frightened they will be targeted next.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[smirkymonkey]

26. +1000 Agreed

There is no such thing as peace with these people. They will not stop until they get what they want. To think they can be reasoned with is naive. I am not sure firepower is the answer. I am thinking biological weapons might be better.

[KingCharlemagne]

27. A contrarian alternative: put Bush, Cheney and the entire Bush Junta on trial for war crimes and cri

against humanity. Then at least our preaching about the mission civilizatrice will not carry with it the stench of utter putrefying hypocrisy.

Just a thought.

Oh wait, were supposed to be looking forward

[randome]

34. You know I would have no problem with that at all.

And ISIS/Daesh would continue brutally enslaving and abusing women and children as well as anyone else who stands in the way of a European caliphate.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Mister Ed]

64. I'll try to answer as best I can.

Upthread, I've compared the terrorists of Paris to those criminals in our own society who commit strings of grisly rapes and murders. I'll continue with that analogy.

First, I know that action must be taken to stop the criminal. If no action is taken, there will be more victims. We have a responsibility to try to protect those prospective victims.

Candlelight vigils and outpourings of sympathy are good and important things, but they will not prevent the criminal from taking another victim. Indeed, he may take perverse delight in our massive display of suffering and pain.

I know that I will not be one of the police detectives who takes on the ugly and soul-sapping work of tracking the psychopath, chasing him down the dark mental tunnels of an otherworld of evil. I know also that I will not be one of the brave police officers who ultimately corner him and apprehend him, at great risk to their own lives. Those people will have my gratitude and support, but I know that I am unlikely to be working shoulder-to-shoulder with them.

In the extremely unlikely event that I should find myself between the criminal and an intended victim, then yes, I will die to protect her. I am not brave and I am not heroic, but I will do no less than I have asked of those law officers whose efforts I support.

Of course, I will not support any type of "law enforcement" that calls for embattling and occupying the criminal's entire neighborhood and demonizing his neighbors, and I will staunchly oppose local politicians who try to exploit our fear and anger over the rapes and murders for the purpose of increasing their own power and wealth.

It should be understood that, in all of this, there is no such thing as victory. At least one woman has been cruelly, viciously raped and murdered. Nothing can reclaim her life, or undo her suffering. There will be no cause for celebration when the criminal is finally halted.

It should also be understood that there can be no end to this effort to protect the innocent from the evil. After this criminal is stopped, another will appear. I am glad that there are those who are fighting the long battle, and working to understand and change the psychological and societal conditions that allow such criminals to develop and flourish. I will support their efforts as well.

And so we return to the terrorists. Action must be taken, just as it must be taken against the murderer/rapist. The action must be very sharply focused upon the terrorist organizations themselves: upon their foot-soldiers, upon their leaders, and upon their wealthy and powerful financial sponsors. That's the short battle. The long battle is to understand, and change, the conditions that provide fertile soil for evil such as ISIS to flourish.

We must, above all, prevent the even greater evil of mass retaliation against the innocent, as happened in the wake of 9/11. I think that we in the U.S. are fortunate to have someone like President Obama as chief executive, for he has given me confidence that he possesses the wisdom, determination, restraint, morality, and conscience that are needed - and that his predecessor so sorely lacked.

[Bluenorthwest]

20. You theory that the bully only bullies because his victims fight back is sort of twisted.

The way you state it, any reaction France takes would 'create' more attacks against them but somehow those who attack them are left out of your accountability loop.
I don't dig that double standard thing.

[KingCharlemagne]

23. France bombed Syria first, if we are looking for first causes. - nt

[randome]

25. And yet ISIS claims Paris was targeted because it is "a capital of prostitution and obscenity".

Funny they don't see things as we might expect.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[smirkymonkey]

28. This scum will always find a reason. They want to conquer Europe.

It doesn't matter what France does. They will find a reason to terrorize them.

[Bluenorthwest]

67. So they picked vengence. But 'first causes' are basically a matter of when you start the timeline.

Not to mention the fact that Islamic State claims to be a State, and it is not Syria, according to Syria. Syria did not do these killings. They seem to want to have their caliphate and eat it too.

[KingCharlemagne]

68. Well, the military historian in me would say they (the irregulars in the assault) engaged in

Retaliation and not vengeance. But that's sophistry, I suppose.

[davidpdx]

29. I want peace, but I also want the killing and retaliatory killing to end

There is no easy answer.

[obliviously]

33. I wonder what Islam will rename France

Will they keep the Eiffel Tower?

[Hortensis]

46. ISIS wants Spain, which was once part of Islam. France is

not a territory it needs to capture in preparation for the apocalypse. Here's ISIS's map of the lands it "plans" to take under the caliphate by 2020, with a whole LOT of help from their god, of course.



As you can see, the new caliphate could at least help stabilize the EU. (No, that is a joke.)

[obliviously]

60. I don't know, that is an awful lot to mow!

[Hortensis]

65. ISIS must be planning to swing the sword of Islam round the clock.

[pinebox]

35. I don't know, i'm torn

I think we need to look long and hard at our past especially as it relates to World War 2 and how we took on Germany. In some ways, it's very similar. The difference is the world came together then and right now, we aren't. We have forces fighting ISIS who aren't even on the same page. If we go all in on this then we need to put our differences aside just as we did with the Soviet's during WW2 and work together to defeat it.

As far as what I want to do, I can't answer that yet, I'm still evaluating everything.

[Metric System]

57. Um, the US didn't join WW2 until Pear Harbor in 1942 so it actually took a few years for the world

to come together back then.

[pinebox]

59. I'm well aware however this has been going on for a "few years" now

We need to tackle this and whatever path we choose it needs to be the full regalia.

[Marrah_G]

36. Unfortunately doing nothing will not stop ISIS

They are pretty clear about their goals and what they are willing to do to obtain them.

[nadine_mn]

82. But declaring war is exactly the result they want

they are preparing for some crazed apocalypse and the end of days. They have chosen their battlefield, Dabiq, as they wait for the 'crusader' armies.

There has to be some other multifaceted approach that does not exist solely of declaring war and bombing - and causing more loss of innocent life.

[Marrah_G]

87. There has to be war to stop them

With that said. I think that war needs to come from other middle east countries and not our own. They will only be stopped by death and if not stopped they will continue to murder, rape and enslave.

[WestCoastLib]

37. I want neither vengeance or peace

To more frankly put it. Peace with these people is simply not possible at this time and there is no means by which to get there that I am willing to take.

But I don't care about vengeance. I'm not mad in that way, because none of the attacks yet (knock on wood) have affected me personally. Sad for Paris, but why would I want vengeance for people I don't know? I wouldn't and I don't.

What I want is for them not to be capable or willing to do this anymore. And as I said above, there is no peaceful means by which to get there that I am willing to take.

[Rex]

38. That is the problem, I want peace but ISIS wants revenge.

So how do you stop a homicidal death cult from killing people when it is in their charter?

[LittleBlue]

39. It's clear that if we do nothing, we won't have peace

Isis will continue to take down passenger jets and attacking European capitals. Doing nothing is the same as accepting perpetual killing.

It is totally inhumane to allow Europe to suffer this, never mind the Syrian people under their yoke.

[geek tragedy]

40. So, we just bow down before Daesh and proclaim our fealty and beg them

to not hurt us?

[nadine_mn]

50. Could you point where I said or even suggested that?

I am saying a knee jerk reaction of just bombing will do nothing to curb the cycle of retaliatory attacks on all sides.

Peace does not mean surrender by any means.

The end goal should be peace...as in reducing the power and influence of ISIS instead of fueling it. ISIS has a clear agenda of radicalism that cannot be stopped by diplomacy, but nor can it be stopped by just violence.

Otherwise it will just be years more of loss of innocent lives...with no end in sight. Taking away power can be done through strategic use of force - not blanket bombing. But in the aftermath of the attacks there has been the call for war. You cannot wage war against a belief system rooted in centuries old strict adherence to radical religious beliefs. Once you declare war, you create an us vs them mentality.

[geek tragedy]

52. You said you opposed armed force against terrorists who want to conquer territory.

That means ipso facto surrender.

Violence is not the entire answer, but it is part of the answer.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. K&R

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. Friedrich Nietzsche

[Liberal Veteran]

48. The best vengeance would be peace.

Fuck people who see violence as the answer to all life's problems.

[Ron Green]

49. I think it's important to say "crime" and not "war."

Language is used to make people do the wrong things.

[hay rick]

76. Agree.

If we agree the terrorists represent a country or religion then we are accepting their rationale and we should be seeking to defeat their country or religion. If we say they are just self-deluded criminals then we are denying that they represent a larger group or have a noble cause. We fight them- in the name of justice.

[backscatter712]

54. Fuck it. I want vengeance. Peace is impossible with Daesh head-choppers. But do it smart.

But I think we should be smart about getting our payback. Having a temper-tantrum and just blasting the shit out of the Middle East won't bring us closer to our goal.

We need to wage an intelligence war against Daesh. Put the CIA and NSA to work doing what they're supposed to be doing instead of snooping on Americans. Infiltrate their organizations, fill them full of moles, do some good old fashioned spying. Start formenting internal chaos, turn factions against each other. Cut off their money. Assassinate their leaders, put polonium in their tea.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

55. You cannot have peace, period.

ISIS is not going to go away if appeased.

They're going to continue murdering large number of innocent people until they're stopped by force.

[KingCharlemagne]

58. Sort of like the US did in Iraq, you mean? - nt

[Throd]

61. Victory.

[Agnosticsherbet]

62. The question is whether we can have peace at all.

Is ISIS a peaceful people who will leave everyone alone if we leave them alone?

[Rex]

63. That is the question.

And it would be NO, they are a death cult. The only way to make peace with a death cult, is when everyone is dead. Our War on Terror now has a face and a name. It is a death cult that takes in anyone as long as they promise to kill themselves at a later date.

How do you rationalize with a group like that?

[Agnosticsherbet]

69. If one side in a conflict refuses all options but violence,

Peace is not posdible.

I have seen no indication ISIS wishes to get along.

Also, this is not about revenge. After a second attack in France this year, I see no choice. Their citizens are being murdered.

[Rex]

80. Agree, I am not a violent person by nature

but there seems to be only one response ISIS understands.

[Whiskeytide]

66. Standing down won't work...

The refugees essentially didn't fight back, and yet they have been slaughtered, raped and tortured anyway.

We have to pull our economic interests from the Middle East. Most of the conflict results from our efforts to prop up regimes and protect our economic interests.

And we have to defund them. The problem with that is that we are doing a lot of business with the people who fund them. Until we take these steps, the cycle will never end.

[Kaleva]

70. There has never been peace at any time throughout all of human history

[Avalux]

75. Peace, always. I don't know how we get there but war isn't it.

War begets war. Why, as intelligent beings, do we ignore this fact? Could it be that we put more importance on 'things' instead of life?

[nadine_mn]

81. I feel like war has been the go to answer for too long

and with the Paris attacks, you know the GOP will be foaming at the mouth to ramp up military action.

[Vinca]

78. Peace . . . but how do you get there?

ISIS does not want to negotiate, does not want to talk, is not reasonable. ISIS does want to control the entire world without us in it. I can't imagine the magic wand that will make peace break out anytime soon. And while we're waiting for Houdini, we're being blown to smithereens. I'm more than open to all peaceful solutions, but I think they're probably fantasies.

[marions ghost]

83. America is hopelessly dependent on a war economy

--there is no incentive at all for America to invest in Peace. Not after the radical changes brought to us by Booshco. The creation of new wars (or continuing the same old ones) is to our advantage. Wars R Us.

Not until enough Americans get tired of this will anything change.

Peace takes creativity and work. America puts none of that into achieving it.

I'm with you and Gandhi, but America is all about revenge and profit.

[nadine_mn]

84. you are so right and it just makes me sad that we have generations

that have never known the US not at war with someone

How can you go for peace if you have never experienced it?

[marions ghost]

85. War is the backdrop of our lives

--we talk about peace and love and rainbows--while living in a ruthless war economy. We allow domestic killings on a par with any terrorist attack, related to and supporting our engagement in those wars. This is damaging us more than people realize. Most people cannot see the big picture.

[Yorktown]

88. If you think appeasement will mellow the ISIS hearts, you are mistaken