Paris attacks...Will this be the end of Schengen?

[True Earthling]

Poland tells EU: No more migrants without security assurances

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/14/poland-tells-eu-no-more-migrants-without-security-assurances.html

"The attacks mean the necessity of an even deeper revision of the European policy towards the migrant crisis," he said at a Saturday briefing.

"We'll accept (refugees only) if we have security guarantees. This is a key condition, and today a question mark has been put next to it all around Europe," he added without elaborating on what he meant by security guarantees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

The Schengen Area (English pronunciation: /ˈʃɛŋən/) is the area comprising 26 European countries that have abolished passport and any other type of border control at their common borders, also referred to as internal borders. It mostly functions as a single country for international travel purposes, with a common visa policy. The Area is named after the Schengen Agreement. Countries in the Schengen Area have eliminated border controls with the other Schengen members and strengthened border controls with non-Schengen states.

[SoCalNative]

1. We can only hope

eom

[BlueMTexpat]

2. Why? eom

[SoCalNative]

5. Because while it's nice to travel unemcumbered

through a lot of countries, I believe that it is important to know who is coming and going through your country. To not have to present a passport or other document when you cross a border isn't a good idea.

[BlueMTexpat]

7. I live in Europe.

Frankly, I - and most Europeans - find the situation here much less scary than it is in the US, where nutcases can carry guns everywhere. The number of US citizens killed in gun violence every month surpasses the tolls in events like this, terrible as they are. Terrorists represent a tiny fraction of humanity here.

While open borders is the norm in the Schengen area, that does not mean that people aren't required to show that they are who they say they are and that they have permission to be here. In fact, ID is required everywhere. If asked to produce your papers, you'd better have them or face some pretty serious consequences.

Yes, this situation is currently dire and should - and will - be taken very seriously. But life here doesn't stop. And throwing the baby out with the bathwater is not the answer.

[SoCalNative]

10. I currently live in Europe too

and again, while it's nice not to have to pass through customs and border security while visiting Schengen countries, I still think everyone would be far better served by having to be processed through borders. The UK wisely decided not to be part of the treaty, and I have to endure the third degree going through customs and border protection every time that I go there. Why should it be any different elsewhere in Europe?

[BlueMTexpat]

12. Ah yes, passport controls

Last edited Mon Nov 16, 2015, 09:02 AM - Edit history (2)

worked so well to prevent 9-11, didn't they?

Passport controls were not even a factor in Oklahoma City, where the terrorists were homegrown, as it seems at least some of the terrorists in Paris were.

People must present passports to enter the Schengen zone and to provide evidence of residence and/or where they will be staying while here. After that, it's like traveling from one state to another within the US and that is what it was intended to be.

The UK decided not to be part of Schengen so yes, if you travel there, you are subject to border controls. That is fine for the occasional visit. Whether that was indeed wisdom or mere xenophobia is still up for grabs. You would likely hear UK citizens complaining as loudly as anyone else once they enter Continental Europe if passport controls started being implemented at every single border again.

I live no more than ten minutes from two major border crossings with France. Many of my neighbors here are frontaliers (people who live in one country but work in the other) and they have a daily transborder commute. In exceptional circumstances, as now, people will put up with the inconvenience. But there would be strong opposition to completely overruling Schengen - on BOTH sides of the border - except, of course from the National Front and their ilk.

It takes much more than passport controls. It takes knowing who your neighbors are and acting like a community. Otherwise, it's a return to the xenophobic nation-state mentality - which too many US neocons would absolutely LOVE to see happen here.

[SoCalNative]

14. "People must present passports to enter the Schengen zone

and to provide evidence of residence and/or where they will be staying while here."

I traveled from Amsterdam to Berlin last month. After I went through security at Schipol airport, I went directly to my gate, never showed anyone a passport or my residence permit. When I landed in Berlin, went directly from the plane, to baggage claim and out the door to get a taxi. Same in reverse when I returned to Amsterdam. So, not sure who exactly has to provide their papers when entering the Schengen zone, but I sure didn't.

[BlueMTexpat]

18. Amsterdam and Berlin

are both within the Schengen zone. You had to present your papers when you first entered Continental Europe (via Amsterdam?) and you will likely have to present them again when you leave. You don't usually have to present them within the zone again unless there is some kind of a spot check in exceptional circumstances or some situation.

Here's the Schengen area: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

The UK, which you mentioned earlier, is not part of the Schengen zone. It is, however, part of the EU. Switzerland, where I have lived for the past 20+ years, is not part of the EU. It is, however, part of the Schengen zone. Neither the UK nor Switzerland is part of the Eurozone.

It does make one's head spin a bit.

A long-time US expat friend who has residence in Thailand (mainly for medical reasons), but who has spent much of the past couple years subletting in Paris flew from Paris to Thailand via Helsinki last year. She had no trouble boarding her plane to Helsinki in Paris, but when she tried to board her flight from Helsinki (the Schengen zone departure point), she was stopped, questioned, and ultimately received a stiff fine (several thousand Euros) because - unbeknownst to her - her French residence had gone beyond its validity point. She had been under the mistaken impression that traveling from France into Switzerland would count as leaving the Schengen area for an automatic renewal. It doesn't since Switzerland is part of Schengen.

They did finally let her leave from Helsinki but informed her that she would not be allowed to re-enter the Schengen zone again at any entrance point until she had resolved her residence situation with the French consulate in Thailand. Much of her short visit in Thailand was spent in completing paperwork to re-enter Europe.

That was a lesson she will not soon forget.

[SoCalNative]

22. When I first moved here

yes I had to present my passport. The only time I have to do it now is when traveling to the UK or the US and back. Otherwise, from the security check you go right to the gate of your flight or you get on a train and nobody asks for your papers when you leav or arrive at your destination.

[BlueMTexpat]

23. That is so.

Basically, the idea of the Schengen Agreement was to make travel - and employment - within European countries as easy as travel and employment between states of the US or between provinces in Canada, etc. Even though Schengen was mostly implemented in the 90s and did not include Switzerland, the Swiss voted (by referendum, which is the usual major decision-making technique here) in 2005 to become part of Schengen.

This is one reason why my unfortunate friend got caught up in her expensive dilemma. She moved from here to Thailand in 2003 and had not realized how Switzerland's joining the Schengen area during her absence might also affect residence requirements in Schengen areas.

The UK and Ireland, both EU members, had opt-out provisions. These opt-out provisions are not available for new members of the EU, however. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement#History

More recent EU members, primarily from Eastern Europe and often with questionable histories of treatment of their own minorities (culminating in significant collaboration with the Nazi Regime in the 20th century to send their own Jewish and Roma minorities, among others, to concentration camps/gas chambers) are not happy about the Schengen requirements - as evidenced by the RW in Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, and Czech especially. Shame on them, IMO!

People too often focus on the open borders aspect as a minus. They conveniently forget its other aspect: to provide equal opportunity and footing for all EU nationals in Schengen countries, which is why it is much easier for Schengen-area nationals to be employed anywhere in the Schengen-EU area than it is generally for non-Schengen-non-EU nationals, including US citizens.

In my friend's case, this made a significant difference for employment. Prior to 2005, she was able to teach courses on a part-time basis at the Geneva branch of Webster University, even when she was not a resident of Switzerland. After 2005, she no longer had that option because the University would have had to make a specific determination that she was more qualified than any Schengen Area national. This would have been very difficult to do since she taught humanities courses rather than scientific or technical courses.

[TransitJohn]

16. Wow

Very authoritarian and illiberal post.

[EL34x4]

3. Two things are going to happen:

One, ISIS recruitment among disaffected Muslim youth in Europe is going to skyrocket, guaranteeing future attacks and two, Europe's far-right parties are going to grow more powerful as well.

Things are going to get worse before they get better. 70 years of European liberalism ended yesterday.

[LittleBlue]

4. It's sad but Schengen has to go

It was great until now. Hungary and Poland didn't sign up for unlimited immigration from Africa and the ME.

[smirkymonkey]

8. +1000

It just isn't going to work. It never was.

[Moondog]

6. Yes. n/t

[Dawson Leery]

9. Liberal post-war Europe is gone.

[pampango]

11. Yes. The right hates Schengen and loves nationalism with its strong borders. It is coming back.

Conservative parties and governments in Europe have been fighting against Schengen and the EU for decades. It looks like their wish may finally be coming true.

Nationalism in Europe does not have a wonderful history - to say the least. Blaming your problems on your neighbor and trying to keep your neighbor's problems isolated with strong borders, while it sounds good, simply does not have a good history in Europe. The liberal, open post-war Europe, while it has problems, does not breed the nationalism that has historically hurt everyone on the continent.

[CBGLuthier]

13. My sister in law and her family crossed the border yesterday from France to Geneva

No one was manning the old border shack just like it has been for years. They didn't do a very good job of closing the border. For that matter when I visited her earlier this year we crossed into Switzerland and back on a country road with not a soul in sight. So they have a long way to go to get a tight controlled border.

[BlueMTexpat]

21. By Sunday, things were a bit looser, I understand.

Switzerland did not close its borders at all even though the reactionary parties were having hissyfits about that. And they still are. Border police and patrols were stepped up, as were cantonal police patrols. But they weren't stopping anyone as far as I have heard.

I understand that the situation on Saturday was different, at least from the French side, in any event. I heard reports of minimum delays of 1.5 hours on that day and that several people who had planned visits to Geneva from France turned back because of the delays. There is a major exhibition in Geneva right now (https://www.palexpo.ch/en/agenda/automnales) and it usually gets a lot of cross-border traffic. I would expect that there will continue to be a lot of security in that area.

[CJCRANE]

15. The EU is not a unified polity. In a democracy the citizens need democratic control

of their own borders, currency, economy and military.

Schengen and the euro should go IMO.

[AZ Progressive]

17. So Terrorists aren't just helping to destroy the U.S., but Europe as well

Last thing we need is Europe to go back to Pre-WWII Europe. Terrorists are helping right wing nationalists to do this.

[BlueMTexpat]

19. I love how so many here - presumably US citizens -

are deciding how Europe should settle its own internal issues.

Are you even listening to yourselves? Do you understand how you are parroting RW nationalist and fascist language?

I am quite surprised that so many here - whom one would think to be more enlightened - are every bit as reactionary as Le Pen's Front National. What a shame!

[DFW]

20. Well, the area is named after a small town in Luxembourg where the treaty was signed

A small town named Schengen (SHENG-en), to be precise. And we didn't strengthen border controls with non-Schengen countries, we just left them in place. My wife and I took a train from Germany, passing through Belgium, and arriving in Paris yesterday. Despite all the reports, we still didn't see a single border guard or customs agent.