OK pacifists...what would you do about ISIS?

[trumad]

Ideas?

[Gman]

1. Good question.

I would like to be enlightened too.

[floriduck]

104. I'd prefer to know what the

prior war mongers want to do, based on the results of their prior decision mistakes. Do we make the same dumbass mistakes and expect different results? I think there's a term for that.

[Archae]

2. I'd send them one of our old nukes.

"Look Muhammed! A nuclear weapon!"

"Why is it ticking though?"

[al bupp]

3. This is a really good question...

the answer to which I, for one, am at a loss to give.

[Rex]

4. Hug it out?

Nothing, pacifist don't believe in violence so they would not have a solution. This calls for violence, sad yes, but the world still works that way. Maybe someday it won't.

[oldandhappy]

5. good question

I was thinking about this as I was getting dressed this morning. I am sooo tired of war and violence and hurting each other. Magic wand? Smile. I do not know what ISIS wants other than to control their world. But I do not see what they want to do with their world -- other than the control and restrictions, etc. I do not know how to work with that.

[melman]

16. "I do not know what ISIS wants other than to control their world. "

No.They want to control the world.

[Ex Lurker]

21. From my reading, they seem to be an apocalypitic cult

that wants to bring about the end of the world.

[hifiguy]

115. Yep.

They want to destroy western civilization for no other reason than it exists. They are the Vandals of the modern world. Death and destruction for its own sake because their invisible man in the sky wants it.

Humans are a very disappointing lot.

[Nevernose]

20. The whole world, not their corner of it

Religious fanatics with an extremely literal view of the Koran.

IMHO, this should be mandatory reading:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

[cilla4progress]

62. Completely agree -

just read most of it.

Yes, to your analysis. Literalists abound in all religions, looking forward to the apocalypse with glee. Some have more followers and arms than others...willing to use them on their own, as well as others.

[KingCharlemagne]

6. Im not a pacifist although I generally favor resolving disputes through non-violent means. I would

Round up Bush, Cheney and the entire Junta and offer to turn them over to Daesh to face justice, probably as part of some larger diplomatic rapprochement with Daesh.

[Bad Thoughts]

11. Why would that help?

This is a group for whom violence is pornography. Yes, Bush and Cheney disrupted Iraq, helping IS to flourish, but they did not create the violent religious fervor that is at the route of its ideology.

[KingCharlemagne]

22. they committed war crimes and crimes against humanity. They must face

Justice, lest all our cant about human rights be revealed as so much stale putrefying shit.

[Bad Thoughts]

33. Prosecute them, yes, but don't delude yourself that IS cares about human rights

They are exploiting the vacuum of power to establish their regime, not to get justice for the Bush admin.

[geek tragedy]

14. Is this a parody account? nt

[KingCharlemagne]

39. I dont know. are you a parody of

Sophocles?

[geek tragedy]

40. Lol, I have my answer nt

[Bonx]

17. So, work with ISIS and hand them them our former leaders

That sounds like an absolutely terrible idea.

[Nevernose]

25. They literally do not believe in diplomacy

It's either join them or die (or slavery and/or forced marriage).

[oberliner]

97. This can't be real

You are doing a spoof right?

[oneshooter]

131. Would you include Hillery in that?

After all she did vote for the war.

[FrodosPet]

148. So the Daesh executes them, and they will be safisfied?

They will lay down their arms and disband, returning to lives of peaceful contemplation and public service?

All they want is a little patch of the desert and a few oil wells to support themselves and to provide their children a future of growth, peace, and friendship with their neighbors, right?

[Ed Suspicious]

7. What is the root cause of ISIS? I would go back in time and fix that fucker of a problem.

[geek tragedy]

41. Abraham. And colonialism. nt

[Mosby]

71. blaming Judaism and Islam for ISIS?

You really mystify me, Geek.

[geek tragedy]

87. And Christianity. But mostly colonialism. nt

[hifiguy]

120. Various tribes and religulous factions in the ME were butchering each other

with gleeful abandon centuries before colonialism came along for reasons incomprehensible to any rational human being. All the US did was pour more fuel on fires that have been burning since the time of the Shia/Sunni schism more than a millennium ago, and reshuffle the alliances among and between the various barbarian hordes.

The difference is now that they have modern weapons, explosives and vehicles instead of camels and scimitars.

[geek tragedy]

122. It was actually pretty stable under the Ottomans, who knew something about the people

they were governing. What colonialism did was place rival tribes inside the same paper borders, leading to inherent and eternal conflict.

[hifiguy]

125. Indeed.

There was a Ottoman Peace that existed for a couple of centuries, but that was centered in Istanbul rather than the Gulf. Ottoman sultans commanded forces sufficient to maintain stability over a large part of the region and were not afraid to use them.

[geek tragedy]

126. Post-colonial governments managed to combine the worst elements of tribalism

with European-style nationalism and statist authoritarianism.

[hifiguy]

129. Yep, and the people there added their own

traditional home-grown religious insanity for good measure.

A devil's cauldron of most forms of human madness was the end result.

[Tree-Hugger]

51. Some jackass

...blaming a woman for eating an apple. It went downhill from there.

[EL34x4]

90. Do you have a Plan B?

Time machines don't exist.

ISIS is here and now. Understanding how they came to be doesn't change this.

[femmedem]

145. Understanding how they came to be helps prevent more followers from joining.

Otherwise there will always be a new generation coming up.

And if you know the root cause, you also have a better shot of finding a remedy for the current recruits. For example, if it starts with money and greed at the highest levels, you use diplomacy and intelligence to cut off funding, as other posters have said. If, on the other hand, it starts with a resource shortage/battle, a different solution might be in order. If it is about religious fundamentalism, then diplomatic or financial solutions might not exist, but at least you know to pursue other options.

[Initech]

108. Money is the root cause of ISIS.

I said it in multiple threads and I will say it again: we cut off ISIS' cash flow and we stop them for good. The question is though is who is supplying ISIS with their ill gotten gains?

[hifiguy]

123. The money trails always, inevitably lead back

to that asshole of the world, Saudi Arabia, and the other oil-rich Wahhabist Gulf states.

And the day any American President allows the world to say so much as "boo" to the butchering bankers and Wahhabi Imperial Grand Poobahs of Riyadh will be the day the devil himself straps on ice skates and does a triple lutz.

[Blue_In_AK]

132. I so agree with this.

I do not understand why the Saudis are always given a pass, even when it is clear to most of us that they were complicit in 9/11. The hijackers were Saudis, so we bomb Iraq. Brilliant.

[hifiguy]

133. "House of Bush, House of Saud"

explains much of why the Saudis are always given a pass. The secret word is MONEY.

[Initech]

135. Saudi Arabia is pretty much the worst country in the world no question.

[hifiguy]

143. Forced to choose between exile to North Korea or KSA

I would choose NK in a heartbeat, Kim Jung Cartman and all. At least I could get drunk and forget I was in North Korea. Saudi Arabia is unquestionably the worst place - and worst culture - on the planet.

[pnwmom]

140. What was the root cause of Jim Jones? Or the root cause of any band of apocalyptic crazies?

[Octafish]

8. Buy them something nice.

Plumbing. Sewers. Clean water, say.

PS: I'm not necessarily a pacifist. I just hate war.

[randome]

98. Air drop smart phones. They'll spend years trying to get them to work.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Initech]

110. Or they'll just get addicted to Candy Crush and Angry Birds.

[Chan790]

100. They have made a point of destroying what few "nice things" they could in Syria and Iraq.

I don't know if you're a gamer, but they are very much like Caesar's Legion in Fallout: New Vegas. I actually know someone who works in the US intelligence field as an analyst that plays Fallout: NV as a member of the Legion in order to access the ISIS way of thinking in order to do their job better.

They despise modernity as weakness, are expansionist, brutal, capricious, and believe that everybody who won't join them or violates their arbitrary rules should be killed in horrific, painful ways. They view brutality, rape and murder of those unlike them as the highest good.

They don't want nice things...they want to watch Europe and the Middle East drown in fire and blood as the first step of their jihad (struggle) for a global caliphate. The only way to relate to them is kill them or to create the conditions that they are slaughtered to the last...which has its drawbacks in that being exactly what they want and it being a hell of a recruitment tool for them.

The problem is as much as you hate war...they love it 10x as much. They will wage it in the face of peace even more vehemently than they wage it now in conflict, in order to provoke that peace into war. They hate peace more than you have probably ever hated anything in your life.

[Kip Humphrey]

9. Translation: Now that we war hawks fucked it up yet again, what are you "pacifists" going to do to

fix it???

How about you war hawks don't cause ISIS in the first place?

[niyad]

13. exactly

[WestCoastLib]

26. So...time travel?

I am generally a pacifist myself and your premise is pretty correct.

However, it doesn't answer the question.

If somebody breaks a bottle of wine on your floor and then leaves, it doesn't make it your fault. But, I'm guessing you wouldn't just let it sit there for years without cleaning it up. The damage has been done. How would you fix it? Or would it be your desire to just let it continue unopposed?

[jamzrockz]

82. This, plus

But how about you give up on Syria. Your reckless goal of removing Assad that is responsible for the rise of ISIS is over. Just give up now and let Russia, Iran and Hezbollah to mop up the terrorists.

This means no more air drops of weapons to moderate beheaders, no air strikes on oil fields that the Syrian people would need after they defeat ISIS to rebuild (also if they wanted to destroy the oil fields, they have Russia to do it for them, they don't need the US and its allies). We just go home and leave the mess we made to Russia & co who would be more than thankful to cleanup the mess without US interference.

[femmedem]

10. I'm not a pacifist, but my first step would be communication

Even in marriage counseling, you learn to reflect back the point of view of the other person and find some part that makes sense, setting aside the rude, unskilled ways that the other party uses to get their point across.

Usually whoever is least angry listens first, because in that moment they have the greatest capacity to listen. But they get their turn to speak as well.

Until you understand what may be a rational anger motivating an irrational response, you can't solve the problem.

[trumad]

15. Seriously not dissing pacifists in this thread.

I have no idea how to make stop ISIS other than force.

Sure if we could go back in time, there are things we could do. Unfortunately we can't and we are stuck with a monster.

[TDale313]

42. Not a pacifist, but sadly I don't see a good solution.

We can't do nothing, but violence is only going to radicalize more people in the Middle East and make them stronger, and they're not interested in peace or diplomacy. So, genuinely, not sure what the answer is. Those suggesting more Intelligence and Infiltration and very targeted action are probably on the right track.

[magical thyme]

91. the problem is that force doesn't make them stop, either.

it just makes another generation highly susceptible to their recruiting.

I honestly don't know how you clean up this mess or heal this disease. It's not like a self-contained tumor that you can remove or irradiate. It's mestasticized to pretty much every organ, every region.

To stop or slow the recruiting, though, means giving every young man a reason to live. They have to have more to lose than gain.

Somebody asked earlier on DU what would drive them to suicide. Why would the promise of a bunch of virgins drive them to off themselves? Because they have nothing to live for. They have nothing left to lose.

[lame54]

117. force hasn't proved to work either...

it's just seems to make them grow

start by getting the hell out of the middle east

[geek tragedy]

18. Are you familiar with Daesh and what they want? nt

[backscatter712]

23. Daesh isn't interested in talking. They only understand killing. n/t

[femmedem]

47. But how do so many people reach that point? Be willing to die for that point?

It isn't a natural human condition. Something has caused it. Something causes them to choose their particular targets as well. I am in no way condoning their actions, or being an apologist. I'm just trying to be practical: if you don't want it to keep happening, you need to listen to someone within Daesh explain how they got there.

[Chan790]

107. They're an apocalyptic Islamist (NOT Muslim, there is a difference) death cult.

I appreciate that it isn't a natural human condition, but wherever it has occurred in history it has presented as a generally-irreversible human condition. They're not interested in talking, they reject any common ground, want nothing we can give them, and despise peace. There is no point talking or listening to someone whose sole desire is to watch you burn in subjugation.

[backscatter712]

137. At this point, it's academic. The question is how to make the attacks stop...

...and right now, the only solutions I see involve violent force, though my specific solution involves the use of intelligence services, special forces, and dirty tricks to factionalize them and turn them against each other, rather than airstrikes and invasions. But I still think the only way to end this is to murder the fuck out of them.

[gratuitous]

12. Like you'd listen anyway

The lesson, however, will continue to be presented over and over again in various ways and forms. You'll have lots of chances to figure it out.

By the way, how did our violent reaction to 9/11 work out? Was it cheap? Was it effective? Did it solve all our problems? Did any new problems crop up that didn't exist before we set out on our course of war? Do we just need to give it more time, or should we apply even more violence?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

50. Congratulations, you've proved war isn't always a good idea.

Yes, the US has unquestionably engaged in wars and military actions with more negative than positive consequences.

Of course, it's also engaged in wars with more positive than negative consequences (Kosovo, first Gulf war, WWII are the first three examples).

The answer to your final question is that at this point unfortunately yes, application of more violence is the least worst option.

[gratuitous]

61. So how much more?

Can you say, prospectively, that if we'd just killed another hundred, thousand, or hundred thousand, in Iraq and Afghanistan that we'd be at peace and terrorism would have been eradicated? How do we know we've "won" against these people?

I'm sorry that you and others in this thread think that pacifism is an attitude or a way of life that can just be slipped on and off to suit the circumstances. As for violence being the "least worst option," what other options have you considered? Why are they worse than violence, considering that it's been violence that brought on yesterday's attacks? Are you ready for more of that carnage? Because that is what's going to happen again. How can the result be any different when the same solution is applied?

[backscatter712]

19. Not exactly a pacifist, but I prefer an intelligence-based response.

Last edited Sat Nov 14, 2015, 02:27 PM - Edit history (1)

Infiltrate their organizations, assassinate virtually all of Daesh's leadership, cut off their money, turn them against each other and let the head-choppers tear themselves apart.

Something like what happened to the Ku Klux Klan. They're a shadow of what they used to be. Go to a Klan meeting, and half the people there will be FBI informants.

[femmocrat]

85. I have wondered why the convoys were not bombed or droned or whatever.

They must be easy to spot from the sky. But what do I know.

I think your ideas all sound very feasible. Wonder what happened to Anonymous' efforts to hack their accounts on social media.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

24. I guess I'm the board's temporary Republican, because I want an overwhelmingly violent response.

I can already imagine a lot of responses my subject line might garner, but whatever. I'd like to gut shoot these fucks and leave them to die in the street, and I'd like a full-on slaughter wherever they have training camps or other aggregation points. I also want their relatives interrogated. As Walter Sobcheck might have said, they need to understand that they're entering a world of pain.

[JCMach1]

30. ISIS is closer to a Mafia type organization than a Nation State...

They have to be taken down in the same kind of ways that we used to fight the Mafia.

You can probably substitute drone attacks and targeted assassinations for arrests though.

[geek tragedy]

32. There's nothing Republican about wanting theocratic, medieval barbarians

to be eliminated as a problem.

It's not Republican to realize that radical rightwing religious fanatics like Daesh cannot be reasoned with.

[FLPanhandle]

35. Being a Democrat doesn't mean sitting still while people kill all around you.

It does mean going after the right target and I agree with you. Kill them, bomb their locations, round up their supporters.

Democrat does not equal wimps.

[restorefreedom]

27. if pacifists had been in charge all along,

isis would not exist,since cheneys war for oil never would have happened.

the best way to deal problems is to prevent them.

[KittyWampus]

31. Those who solely focus on Cheney etc ALWAYS forget the Saudis

and the other Muslim/Arab elites.

[restorefreedom]

37. oh for sure, their hands are not clean either

and we should not forget how cozy the saudis and the bushes have been

[Donald Ian Rankin]

43. If pacifists had been in charge all along, as a European Jew, I wouldn't exist either. N.T.

[restorefreedom]

49. if we are going to go that far back,

then we have to decide how far into human history to take this thought experiment. but as a non pacifist, ww2 was certainly a time when action was needed. but the isis problem was completely man made by us.

[Chan790]

111. Indeed. It never stops disappointing me how often pacifists forget the lesson of Neville Chamberlain

Against an enemy that despises peace...pacifism is about as useful a method of self-preservation as suicide is.

Not at all.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

134. I don't think the issue here is self-preservation.

Even if the West does nothing about ISIS, and continues to suffer terrorist attacks, it still won't kill a fraction as many people *in the West* as, say traffic accidents.

The main reason I think the West should probably attack ISIS is what they are doing to people in the region they control, and the risk that that region may expand.

[MH1]

64. irrespective of the other good answers to your post, what do you do NOW?

Going back in time is not an option.

[restorefreedom]

72. first, i am not a complete pacifist

i think the world had to confront hitler.

as for now, a worldwide response to isis (similar to the coalition after 911 before we pissed away the support of the world community) would have to commence. it could involve freezing assets, infiltration with small teams of people from that region to gather intelligence, and other nonviolent actions to start. and i hate to say it, but closing borders temporarily and heavily screening refugees might stop the flow of new fighters and equipment/weapons into the region. i think that an initial attempt to cut off their financial and human resources should be the first step. try and isolate and weaken them. and then if no other options exist, the regional armies would have to fight them with the support of the world community, including muslim countries.

no us/nato/western led intervention. it will make things so much worse.

[MH1]

94. Thank you for your response.

In theory, the CIA should already have been doing most of the things you mention, such as cutting off resources and infiltrating.

I don't think the regional armies are going to be successful without strong backing from big states like the US and EU. For example, the Kurds. Even with the backing we've given so far, progress has not been very good.

I agree with the spirit behind the comment "no us/nato/western led intervention" but if the other methods continue to fail, that is probably what will happen. At that point things get even uglier, much uglier, than they already are.

[restorefreedom]

112. sometimes i fear the attempts at nonviolence

cutting off funding and the like are half hearted, since so many want to jump right into war. the regional armies if they all worked together (think turkey for example working with SA) could make a difference. nato partners could help, and i might not be opposed to limited action(intelligence, air strikes, and rescue of hostages). but the most important thing is the list of countries participating. it would have to include practically everybody, else it would be seen as another act of us/western aggression.

[redstateblues]

102. we'd also be speaking German

[restorefreedom]

118. i already addressed that

49, 72, 112

[MohRokTah]

28. They'll bake cookies and look for unicorns.

That seems to sum up their reactions to necessary war.

[KittyWampus]

29. I am not a dogmatic pacifist. But heavy Infiltration would be a start.

[MH1]

65. infiltrate with who? how do you find willing infiltrators?

when the potentially willing must know that if they are detected or even suspected as such, they will probably face a horrible death?

[emulatorloo]

93. Infiltrators would have to take part in Daesh atrocities to succeed as infiltrators.

Which no opponent of Daesh is willing to do.

So agreed infiltration won't work here.

Not my original thought, btw. Read it in one of the articles I read earlier, sorry don't remember link.

[Ex Lurker]

95. There are people even now in IS territory in communication

with western intelligence agencies, usually through NGO intermediaries. Everybody has a cell phone, and IS doesn't have eavesdropping capability. It's a big desert out there, and the "borders," such as they are, are very porous. Eyes are on the IS operatives, and intelligence agencies know where they congregate. That's how drone strikes happen.

[Nye Bevan]

34. What we did to Jihad John was almost perfect.

Targeted, precise, got the right guy, and with minimal collateral damage (assuming that the reports are true).

So I think we need more like this. Spend less on older style warfare and more on infiltration, intelligence, intercepting communications, anything that will help us take out the bad guys without thousands of "boots on the ground" and civilian casualties.

[think]

36. I'm antiwar. Not a pacifist. But there are things that could be done though that pacifists would

agree with.

1. Support Kerry's efforts to convene a peace effort in Syria including a cease fire in Syria.

2. Stop selling weapons to middle east countries known to have persons who traffic weapons to terrorists in Libya & Syria.

3. Stop training and arming rebels in Syria.

4. Stop assisting Saudi Arabia in bombing hospitals in Yemen.

5. Stop U.S. support for dictators in the middle east.

There are undoubtedly many more intelligent and practical things that can be done that don't involve war and killing people.

{Edit:} To be clear I am most certainly antiwar. Antiwar doesn't mean I feel that war is completely unnecessary. It just shouldn't be a first option rather than diplomacy. And it also means acting in a manor that avoids unnecessary violent confrontations with other people by operating in manor that respects their rights and beliefs.

My understanding of pacifism is that the philosophy is against war in any situation. There are very few pure pacifists.

[femmedem]

53. Excellent post.Your username suits you well. n/t

[Metric System]

69. That's all good, BUT none of that would deter Daesh from pursuing its stated goal of a caliphate.

[think]

78. The list is things pacifists might agree with as asked for by the OP. Pacifism won't stop ISIS.

As to stopping ISIS/DAESH from creating a caliphate I agree with Sanders that we should support the fight against this terrorist group but the countries of the middle east need to take the lead.

Still if we were actively doing the things listed in my post the recruitment efforts of Daesh/ISIS would be less robust and there would be less funding getting to them.

[Jeroen]

38. That's like asking 'what would you do to clean up the mess we've created?'

Like so many, I knew that the WMD was just an excuse to go to war.
Like so many, I knew it would destabilize the ME and have grave consequences.
Like so many, I knew that countless lives would be lost as a result.

This is the moment for us, pacifists, to point our finger at YOU.
Not the other way around.

[WestCoastLib]

44. Congrtatz on being right.

[URL=][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Comrade Grumpy]

45. Support a negotiated ceasefire and settlement in Syria.

Support Syria and Iraq in their fights against ISIS.

[sadoldgirl]

46. The one thing I detest are

knee-jerk reactions, and that is exactly what
you are asking for imo.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

48. You act as if this is something new...

Europe was at war for hundreds of years -two really big ones - the middle east has that to look forward to. The spillover will not be pleasant but it is for them to come to terms with.

We lost our chance at peace when we elected raygun and turned away for encouraging third world development.

The blind support for Israel has just inflamed the situation.

Bottom line - bush opened Pandora's box - forces are at work that cannot be managed.
We can not impose rational solutions on others - it must come from themselves.

History will have to run it's course.

You want an answer???

Saudi Arabia - Iran - Jordan - Kuwait - UAE - Turkey - Israel - Egypt - must take the all who want to come to their country and all that want to leave the greater middle east.

The waste lands that are left must be starved of everything.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. Cut off their supply of money, arms, and ammunition.

And, do the same for the countries in the region.

Stop throwing kerosene on the fires by indulging in PR wars in the region.

Facilitate, (not run), peace talks in the region between hostile countries.

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Isaac Asimov

[Crystalite]

54. Cut our military budget in half, take care of our own people, jobs, families, infrastructure.

Stop being cop to the world, but be supportive in peaceful and diplomatic ways.

Instead of asking how might we put out the fires, we should ask what role we played in setting them.

Over and out.

[morningfog]

55. Choke their money supply, ramp up Intel.

Prevent attacks, make arrests, bankrupt them.

[librechik]

57. +++++++ n/t

[restorefreedom]

89. ^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^ nt

[Bigmack]

56. So... NOW it's up to pacifists to fix the clusterfuck that war started...

Nice deflection.

I think that most pacifists are pragmatists, too. No wars for crass material gains...no wars for profit...no wars of oppression. Like that.
Defensive wars...wars that are TRULY defensive... shouldn't cause any but pure pacifists to object overmuch. Very few of us are pure anything.

Let's have a little perspective here...
The CIA estimates ISIS's total manpower at 31,500 - about one-third of the capacity of Rose Bowl stadium - or, roughly, 0.0019% of the world's total Muslim population.
It's important that we keep perspective, and not fall into the trap that radical Islam is laying for us.... that is, blaming all Muslims and doing something stupid like invading someplace unrelated to the problem...like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan.
We tend to try to use a sledgehammer instead of a surgical instrument to solve our global problems.

How about cutting off their money? We don't have hackers who can get into their accounts? Cut off their support in the Arab world. Sanction governments who allow their citizens to contribute. Even if it's the Saudis.

Use surgical strikes and missions to cut their infrastructure. Use surrogates - like the Kurds - to do our fighting. We have proven time and again that we have no knowledge of the languages, cultures, and loyalties over there. Let the people on the ground solve their own problems... which coincidentally mirror ours. Be careful with military aid to the proven losers like the Afghan/Iraqi army. Then give our real allies rewards. For the Kurds... a Kurdish state.

Hell... anything would work better than the whack-a-mole policy we have currently. How about working smarter not harder?

How about bombing them with DVD players pre-loaded with medium-core porn, with lots of large-breasted blondes? Give those young guys something to think about besides strapping on a bomb vest. Those virgins in their minds might pale next to a bimbo on the screen. (Tongue in cheek here, but we can be a LOT more creative than we have been.)

War - the way we practice it - is not the answer. Or, putting it a different way... it hasn't worked out all that well in the last 50 years.

[Hoyt]

58. I would handle them like the international KKK, and incentivize governments to help within

their borders.

[bowens43]

59. kill them.

[Bigmack]

60. Seriously? You don't think the entire US military has been trying for years to do just that? nt

[Lizzie Poppet]

76. That's precisely what I think.

The "entire US military" has been doing nothing of the sort. Our actual military efforts against ISIS have been very modest, indeed.

While a part of ISIS is like any other distributed network of terrorists, a whole lot bigger part of it greatly resembles an actual military force: they take and occupy territory. That requires some degree of concentration, which makes them vulnerable to military operations, thus a year or so of airstrikes and actual boots-on-the-ground fighting by the Kurds, etc. I fully expect the French (and any country that gets on board with them) to massively ramp up military operations against these concentrations of ISIS forces. Those forces are pretty much fucked: they have no chance against modern, professional forces in anything resembling conventional battle. No air force, completely inadequate anti-aircraft assets, half-assed logistics, minimal artillery, and so forth.

That will leave the terrorist components, who I expect to be a bloody, gruesome problem for some time. But you can kiss their pitiful fucking "caliphate" goodbye...

[Bigmack]

101. You said....

"...concentrations of ISIS forces. Those forces are pretty much fucked: they have no chance against modern, professional forces in anything resembling conventional battle. No air force, completely inadequate anti-aircraft assets, half-assed logistics, minimal artillery, and so forth."

The Taliban never numbered more than 30,000, either. CIA estimates say only 10,000 of those were actual fighters. We had total control of the air, unlimited supplies, the latest technology, the best trained troops in the world... and yet the Taliban kept expanding their area of control.

The war killed more civilians than Taliban.
2370 Americans troops were killed in Afghanistan, together with a like number of US citizen "contractors".

ISIS hasn't got all the things you listed. Neither did the Taliban. It's hard to fight a conventional war with unconventional enemies. We have been proving this since Vietnam, and we still haven't learned.

The Caliphate will burn itself out. Problem is, that's in historical time. Could be decades. Could be days. They keep adding to their area of control, and extending their terror arm. Military might won't stop them. We need to think about other ways.

[lake loon]

63. Exterminate them

... nothing else will work, sadly.

[ucrdem]

81. They're already dead.

[Bigmack]

106. As I said elsewhere in this thread...

The Taliban never numbered more than about 10,000 fighters. We had every advantage...control of the air, unlimited supplies, best trained troops, modern technology... and yet the Taliban kept expanding their area of control

Don't you think the entire might of the US military was trying to "exterminate them"?

ISIS has about 20-30,000 fighters, and we're killing about 1,000 a month. And yet, their area of control is expanding....as is their terror activities.

Not intending to be cruel here, but "exterminate them" is easier said than done.

[ucrdem]

66. Well, we could round up the usual suspects,

based on the usual evidence, but I'd suggest that going full-metal Sarkozy would only make things worse.

[Agnosticsherbet]

67. For a non-violent solution both sides must want that solution.

From what I have seen, ISIS has no non violent solution. At minimum, all Shia are apostate and must die. Non Muslims either convert or pay an onerous TX and live as second class citizens with no rights.

For them all the lands controlled by Muslims are their's and all other nations are the lands of war.

A pacifist solution would be to refuse to fight and accept what came.

A peaceful solution would be to find what ISIS is willing to accept not to wage eternal war that everyone else could accept.

[cilla4progress]

68. Princeton Professor Haykel

(see "What Isis Really Wants" in the The Atlantic) proposes a slow bleed as the best strategy ...

[Throd]

70. Convert to Sunni Islam.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

73. Not sure I'm a pacifist but for sake of discussion let's say I am;

Questions I'd ask- Is ISIS an organized entity with a central command that plans strategy and issues commands? Do they occupy some part of some country? Are all the ISIS people ever gathered together in one group in one place? How are they funded? What issues are driving their existence? How do they recruit members? What role does American (and France and the Western world) Foreign Policy play in this scenario?
It seems many people propose the way to solve this problem is to destroy ISIS. But ISIS is more of an ideology than a place or group of people.

[Vinca]

74. I've always considered myself a pacifist, but I'm having second thoughts.

ISIS and other terrorists cannot be bargained with, reasoned with or otherwise negotiated with. They aren't interested. They want the world . . . preferably with all of us gone from it. We have 2 choices. Continue what we're doing taking a few out here and there while they still continue to kill us or unite with other countries for a serious elimination of the threat. If there is a peaceful solution, I'd love to hear it.

[Initech]

75. Easy: bankrupt the shit out of them.

As long as they have the money to wage war, the longer we keep bombing them, the longer that is going to keep getting passed down to newer, angrier generations who will devise attacks a million times worse than what happened in Paris. We take away their money, we stop them for good. It is that simple.

[jeepers]

77. Unilatel disarmament

Close the armament industry in this country and work to interdict arm shipments from other countries
Take all the profit out of war. Work for clean water food and families worldwide.

But you're not serious are you.

[Throd]

80. After all that they still want you dead.

[EX500rider]

146. China-Russia-North Korea all like your idea of the US unilateral disarmament.

[valerief]

79. Take the military budget and create a gazillion solar/wind energy jobs at home.

What's the ME and its ISIS without its oil?

[Rex]

83. Okay warmonger...what would you do about ISIS?

And keep in mind eliminating them down to the person might just make more of them at a later date. How do you violently kill an ideology?

Trap them all in a compound and play Kidz Bop?

[nolabear]

84. I'm playing devils advocate but what if we worked AROUND them?

Forget Isis; they're going to do what they do for reasons we all know. Power. We might well have to work to destroy them.

But what if we as a Western world opened our arms to all those suffering, starving, terrified people, helped them eat, helped them learn, gave them hope and respected their religion and their culture? Talked to them like people. Stopped being Us and Them. Expressed sadness about having to be careful with them because we fear them. Felt some sorrow about the necessity of killing to protect ourselves and assured those who we have a chance of joining with that we recognize their right to find their own way and solve their own problems. It's not a sudden change but long term it seems most humane, and least likely to create as many Jihadists.

[LiberalArkie]

86. I am a pacifist. Been beaten up many times and never fought back. But that being said.

During World War 2, the Germans and Japanese would not quit. They believed that they could go to the last man and win. The only way to stop the fighting was the Dresden and the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings as much as I hate to say it. History has been back and forth. I would not be able to do it, but I do understand why sometimes a massive show of force to totally demoralize your opponent has to happen.

So what would I do? Load the B-52's up with regular bombs, fly them to the ISIL controlled areas and level them. Wait a week or so, airdrop leaflets warning the next area to surrender or face the same.

[Capt. Obvious]

88. The Paper Tiger roars

[laundry_queen]

92. Not a pacifist

by any means...but I am sick of all this BS.

So my ideas:

Take in as many refugees as possible. Evacuate people from the war torn areas. Shelter them, feed them. Make friends and allies of them. One day, you want them to turn against ISIS instead of sympathize with them. Making them stay in their hellish homes, and bombing them will not accomplish this.

Strategic bombing of known ISIS hide outs. (Not much different than what is being done now).

Intel, good police work and arrests of those who are plotting and planning attacks. Take some of that money usually used for war, and pour it into spies. Infiltrate groups. Eliminate threats from within.


So I'm not saying war, and I'm not saying we must stop all killing immediately. I think it needs to be more strategic. Might is not making right any more. It's not enough to be stronger, we must be smarter.

I'm sure this is all some wild fantasy though, I'm sure immediately there will be posts coming along to tell me why this is all wrong I'm willing to listen.

[ThoughtCriminal]

96. Invest in ending world dependence on Middle Eastern oil

Would go a long way in cutting it's financial backing.

[riderinthestorm]

99. Starve the beast. Find the funding sources and CUT IT OFF!

These are a few things that will not solve the terrible and tangled web of causation and violence in which the attacks of Friday night were spawned. A 242-ship Navy will not stop one motivated murderous fanatic from emptying the clip of an AK-47 into the windows of a crowded restaurant. The F-35 fighter plane will not stop a group of motivated murderous fanatics from detonating bombs at a soccer match. A missile-defense shield in Poland will not stop a platoon of motivated murderous fanatics from opening up in a jammed concert hall, or taking hostages, or taking themselves out with suicide belts when the police break down the doors. American soldiers dying in the sands of Syria or Iraq will not stop the events like what happened in Paris from happening again because American soldiers dying in the sands of Syria or Iraq will be dying there in combat against only the most obvious physical manifestation of a deeper complex of ancient causes and ancient effects made worse by the reach of the modern technology of bloodshed and murder. Nobody's death is ever sacrifice enough for that.

...

Abandoning the Enlightenment values that produced democracy will not plumb the depths of the vestigial authoritarian impulse that resides in us all, the wish for kings, the desire for order, to be governed, and not to govern. Flexing and posturing and empty venting will not cure the deep sickness in the human spirit that leads people to slaughter the innocent in the middle of a weekend's laughter. The expression of bigotry and hatred will not solve the deep desperation in the human heart that leads people to kill their fellow human beings and then blow themselves up as a final act of murderous vengeance against those they perceive to be their enemies, seen and unseen, real and imagined. Tough talk in the context of what happened in Paris is as empty as a bell rung at the bottom of a well.

...

It's not like this is any kind of secret. In 2010, thanks to WikiLeaks, we learned that the State Department, under the direction of then-Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, knew full well where the money for foreign terrorism came from. It came from countries and not from a faith. It came from sovereign states and not from an organized religion. It came from politicians and dictators, not from clerics, at least not directly. It was paid to maintain a political and social order, not to promulgate a religious revival or to launch a religious war. Religion was the fuel, the ammonium nitrate and the diesel fuel. Authoritarian oligarchy built the bomb. As long as people are dying in Paris, nobody important is dying in Doha or Riyadh.

...

It's time for this to stop. It's time to be pitiless against the bankers and against the people who invest in murder to assure their own survival in power. Assets from these states should be frozen, all over the west. Money trails should be followed, wherever they lead. People should go to jail, in every country in the world. It should be done state-to-state. Stop funding the murder of our citizens and you can have your money back. Maybe. If we're satisfied that you'll stop doing it. And, it goes without saying, but we'll say it anyway – not another bullet will be sold to you, let alone advanced warplanes, until this act gets cleaned up to our satisfaction. If that endangers your political position back home, that's your problem, not ours. You are no longer trusted allies. Complain, and your diplomats will be going home. Complain more loudly, and your diplomats will be investigated and, if necessary, detained. Retaliate, and you do not want to know what will happen, but it will done with cold, reasoned and, yes, pitiless calculation. It will not be a blind punch. You will not see it coming. It will not be an attack on your faith. It will be an attack on how you conduct your business as sovereign states in a world full of sovereign states.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a39727/paris-attacks-middle-eastern-oligarchies/

[closeupready]

103. I've put you on ignore in the past for many reasons.

I now have another.

[cantbeserious]

105. The First Step - Eliminate Neocons From The World Stage - HRC Must Withdraw As A Candidate

eom

[restorefreedom]

113. neocons out, yes step one, most important. nt

[guillaumeb]

109. Given that the endless war has only accentuated the problem,

who at DU suggests more of the same violence?

[yurbud]

114. stop using groups like that as weapons against other countries

The real scandal is our bipartisan policy of using groups like ISIS, Al Qaeda, and any other religious extremists who dislike the same governments our government does.

ISIS didn't seem to move from our friends to enemies list until they started to bedevil Iraq as well as Syria.

Washington didn't seem to mind the religious extremist in Libya when they were after Khadaffi, but only only noticed they're bad guys when they killed our diplomats.

The same is true of our allies in Afghanistan. Our troops are rightly horrified that some of these practice child sex slavery, but our government doesn't care as long as they are on our side.

We should certainly find and punish (however you want to interpret that) whoever did this Paris attack, but the long term response should be to stop using these guys and telling our Gulf allies like the Saudis to stop funding, training, and directing them as well.

I won't hold my breath for that happening no matter which of the two parties enter the White House.

[Chan790]

124. Yes, that would do wonders.

These were not people we should have armed to wage war against the Soviets in Afghanistan; should not have armed to wage war against the Taliban and Iranians and Hezbollah and Saddam and Qaddafi; and these shouldn't be people we're arming to wage war against Assad now.

Let's stop giving weapons to people that hate us and sending them to fight people we hate.

[w0nderer]

116. not a pacifist

send all syrians of 'army age' say 18-47 years back to syria with a gun and 180 rounds

fight for your county!

[mwrguy]

119. Drop all support for murderous regimes like Israel and Saudi Arabia

For starters.

eta: I am not a pacifist.

[GoneFishin]

121. First, I would recommend that we don't invade Iraq. Oh yeah, too fucking late. Some shitty ass

decisions just can't be fixed with excuses, apologies, revisionist history telling, or liar media pundits.

[matt819]

127. Let's flip that

Ok warmongers, what would you do?

Isis is not a nation. It doesn't have a hierarchy or a military or anything we know of that represents a centralized command and control.

Who do you bomb? Who do you attack? Where? How many more American lives are you willing to sacrifice for 150 dead in Paris? How many more billions are you prepared to spend? These attacks aside, do you really think we could cobble together anything more than an anemic coalition of the pissed but not really willing?

No easy answers whichever side of the divide you are on?

[Generic Brad]

128. Keep giving them our lunch money until they weary of beating us up for it

At some point their fists will swell and their arms will get tired from repeatedly punching us. And then their bullying and intimidation will magically stop.

[Truprogressive85]

130. Beating the war dream

War Hawks seem love to beat their chest and have the solution in wake of tragedies but seem to be always wrong .

Just today US conducting air strikes in Libya oh where was ISIS during Qaddafi reign

Where do Hawks want US to bomb Libya ? Yemen? Syria ? Iraq? - we are already bombing these countries and yet ISIS seems to be still growing

The US loves to call KSA and other Gulf states allies,but when in fact they seem to the financiers of groups like ISIS an share Wahhabi ideology


So if we don't have real information on where ISIS is hiding,and kill every single member than we will achieve nothing. if we start a full bombing campaign we are likely to kill more innocent people than the terrorist did yesterday.

[PowerToThePeople]

136. I would start with peace and justice.

eom

[TexasBushwhacker]

138. Well, violence isn't working

It's just creating more violence. Drone strikes, cluster bombs, etc all seem to be just making things worse. What if we just stopped?

You know what they say when you find yourself in a hole. If you want to get out, the first thing you have to do is QUIT DIGGING.

[tjwash]

139. I would look at what the U.S. did in response to 9-11, and then do the exact oppsosite.

But - like everywhere else on the intertubes, this whole site seems to be in "fuck patience...let's go kill something" mode. Enjoy your little dick-waving contest. First prize is hummer, right?

[B Calm]

141. How many more American soldiers do we sacrifice before we win?

[L. Coyote]

142. Simple, cut military spending by about three-quarters and bring everyone home.

Use the massive surpluses to kick start the global economy and secure a future with bridges, schools, playgrounds, trees, air to breath, etc. And most importantly, provide a sense of security for people everywhere by not dominating the whole world with militarism.

In other words, quit going around starting illegal wars and disrupting entire regions of the world and stealing resources to prop up a 1% global hierarchy enjoying their yachts and private jets .....

[ileus]

144. They just need to work this out of their system...

It's been pent up for hundreds of years, now we're getting their paybacks, and many of us believe it's only fair.

A few hundred more years of attacks like this and they'll get tired and maybe have a reformation much like the protestants did several hundred years ago.

[killbotfactory]

147. try to stop our allies from supporting them. nt

[miyazaki]

149. Bend over, stick their head between their legs and kiss their ass goodbye.

What they usually do, whether confronted by terrorism, home invasion, witnessing violence against
others and looking the other way etc. Read it here almost everyday.

[deutsey]

150. I'm not a pacifist, but from what I've read and learned about it

from pacifists: pacifism isn't just a non-violent response to particular violent actions by individuals and groups. It's a larger way of living cooperatively with others, nature, etc., and creating and maintaining social structures that benefit everyone, not just a few that have to resort to violence to get their way (that's not really doing pacifism justice, but I'm not going to write a treatise here).

Basically, from what I understand: for pacifists, it's not that I have to win and you have to lose. It's I win and you win. We all benefit from just and humane social structures, which help to diminish the resentment and violence resulting from unjust social structures.

I'm concerned that with centuries of western imperialism in Muslim countries (and the repression and exploitation and dire impoverishment it's wrought for many in that part of the world for generations), it may be too late to stave off the violent fury people there feel against the West. And I certainly can't imagine that our ruling elites (or the average citizens, for that matter) being open to beginning the daunting work of reworking our imbalanced world economic/political/social systems to be more equitable.

I don't excuse these vile terrorist acts we're seeing more and more of, but there's something more going on here than that the perpetrators "hate us for our freedoms."

Sadly, I think we're going to be entangled in this "snake and mongoose" fight for a while.

[Warren Stupidity]

151. 1. Stop fucking with regime change in Syria.

[99Forever]

152. Let them the fuck alone.

Glad you fucking asked.

[Quantess]

153. There has never been a more appropriate moment to trot out the verbal gem:

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!