What to do re: ISIS? How about this? Get our US Military OUT of ME countries, period.

[99th_Monkey]

By now it's a patently bullshit argument that "if we don't fight them over there, we'll have to fight
them in our precious Homeland" ... Like this ^ is some kind of sensible solution to end the bloodshed
and violence that threatens to engulf more people every day.

It's not the solution, it's the fucking problem.

Like Bill Mayer said on his show last night, with panelists Dylan Rattigan, Michael Steel, & Jay Leno ..
"What a concept: How about we just stay out of Muslim lands?"

Let the ME nations deal with their own terrorist assholes, they have armies, and could crush ISIS in
1 week if the US would just stop throwing more gasoline on the ME firestorms of death & misery,
with bombings, drones, and now boots in Syria, all of which simply keeps the cycle of violence and
revenge-seeking going.

If we get attacked on US soil, so be it. Deal with THAT, smartly & preemptively, as a criminal act
invoking swift & deliberate justice. This is what we do already, like with the Boston bombing, et. al.
as well we need to, but let's stop pretending like we can go over there and "kick ass" .. like Bill
Mayer said in the above interview, we know damn well that if we "go after ISIS with boots on ground"
that they will immediately "melt back into the civilian population just like they did in Iraq and
Afghanistan .. "

[cantbeserious]

1. It Is Increasingly Clear That HRC Must Withdraw From The 2016 Election For Her Role As A Neocon

eom

[Metric System]

3. It Is Increasingly Clear That You Can't Be Serious.

[cantbeserious]

4. HRC Voted For The Neocon Dream Of Exporting Democracy - She Is Accountable For ISIS

Better she withdraw with dignity than have her shame exposed.

[KittyWampus]

7. Sanders voted to pay for it.

[cantbeserious]

12. Sanders Voted To Supply Troops That Were Placed In Harms Way By The Likes Of HRC

eom

[retrowire]

72. this. n/t

[tecelote]

75. Bernie is a the morally superior option - no two ways about it.

In 2009, Bernie strongly opposed a proposed 40,000 troop surge in Afghanistan, saying it would be “a very, very, very bad idea”.

After President Obama announced a timetable to withdraw troops in 2011, Bernie released this statement:

“This country has a $14.5 trillion national debt, in part owing to two wars that have not been paid for. We have been at war in Afghanistan for the last 10 years and paid a high price both in terms of casualties and national treasure. This year alone, we will spend about $100 billion on that war. In my view, it is time for the people of Afghanistan to take full responsibility for waging the war against the Taliban. While we cannot withdraw all of our troops immediately, we must bring them home as soon as possible."

[Fast Walker 52]

95. Exactly. I honestly don't see how any Democrat can prefer the warhawk Hillary

over the more sage approach of Sanders.

People are so tired of this war on terror bullshit.

[SusanCalvin]

98. Yep.

Once they are put in harm's way they must be supported until withdrawn.

[hifiguy]

125. You are never, ever going to stop beating

that long debunked dead horse, are you?

[JoePhilly]

19. I think you mean ...

... he can't be taken seriously.

[cantbeserious]

47. Serious Is As Serious Does - HRC Is Complicit As A Neocon - When Will She Take Responsibility

eom

[JoePhilly]

53. Ok Forrest.

[cantbeserious]

56. HRC Voted For The Neocon Dream Of Exporting Democracy - She Is Accountable For ISIS

Better she withdraw with dignity than have her shame exposed.

[SunSeeker]

80. Her voting history is well known, what is to "expose"? nt

[Spitfire of ATJ]

100. Let's see if she tries to out-Neocon the Republicans.

[Throd]

5. Living up to your name again.

[cantbeserious]

9. Ad Hominem Attacks Are Against DU Rules - Clearly One Is Unable To Face Reality

eom

[bahrbearian]

15. Hillary kept us safe after 9-11

[cantbeserious]

16. HRC - Another Neocon Version Of Dubya - Different Stripes - Same Corporate Backers

eom

[Orrex]

44. You're right--it's about time we had a Republican in the Whitehouse

Unless you can think of someone else who might reasonably be expected to win the general election.

[cantbeserious]

51. Bernie Sanders - Beats All Republicans In General Election Polling

eom

[Orrex]

54. I'm sorry--for a second it looked like you wrote "Bernie Sanders."

Bernie Sanders - Beats All Republicans In General Election Polling

So does Clinton, and she's beating Sanders in polls now.

[cantbeserious]

60. So Sorry That One Is Having Vision Trouble Today - Maybe A Trip To The Ophthalmologist Is In Order

eom

[Orrex]

64. And you should have your funny bone checked--it's clearly misfiring

But as long as you vote for Clinton in Nov 2016, I guess it's ok.

[cantbeserious]

65. Ridicule - The First Sign Of Nothing Better To Say

[Orrex]

67. Interesting!

Ridicule - The First Sign Of Nothing Better To Say

You should make that point to the benighted soul who posted THIS bit of ridicule!

[cantbeserious]

68. Ones Link Is To Ones Self - Amazing

eom

[Orrex]

70. Not if you click the link that I posted. It links to reply #60

In which some benighted soul ridiculed one's vision. A sign of nothing to say, I'm sure you'll agree.

[cantbeserious]

73. Clearly - THe Recommendation Was Warranted

eom

[Orrex]

78. Why so nasty?

Would your candidate support such personal attacks? Are you Feeling the Bern? Maybe you'd better feel him again.

[ToxMarz]

81. And the Rethglicans have not attacked him yet

If he looked likely to win nomination, or did, the attacks would be swift, and hard. Who knows their effectiveness, but most Americans know very little about him. They would get their education from the Koch machine. They have already fired their canons at Clinton and she's still standing.

[DCBob]

93. You cant be serious?

[complain jane]

99. Do you post this in every single topic or just lots of them?

[Metric System]

2. But isn't Daesh's stated goal to EXPAND their territory?

[99th_Monkey]

11. Hint: Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Pakistan ALL have strong military forces

It makes NO sense for US to be "Cops of the World". none.

It only makes things exponentially worse by the day, by creating more martyrs, more
innoncent civilian deaths that fuel extremist Muslim revenge-seeking, and so on. You
know the list probably as well as I do.

The least we can do is stop bankrupting the US Treasury on military misadventures in
the ME that only makes things way worse.

[Mnpaul]

173. We have to make it safe for corporate exploitation

They have defunded most of the consumers here.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

103. Yeah,...they claim they'll be flying their flag over the White House.....

They can't even hold onto a TOWN for long.

Not one single COUNTRY has fallen before them nor will they.

One of the PROBLEMS is they are Sunni so countries like Saudi Arabia don't see them as a threat. Chopping off heads is what they do during their children's matinee.

[Rex]

6. Well if we do that, please make sure to take all our military assest with us!

It is pathetic enough we spend 600 billion on the DoD...only to have them leave behind hardware that the enemy is now using against us!

[99th_Monkey]

13. Agreed! -nt-

[tecelote]

76. Great point...

With $8.5 Trillion Unaccounted for, Why Should Congress Increase the Defense Budget?

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/03/19/85-Trillion-Unaccounted-Should-Congress-Increase-Defense-Budget

[jwirr]

147. At the very least the equipment should be destroyed. We

used to do that.

[geek tragedy]

8. So let Daesh conquer Syria, Iraq and commit genocide

in the process?

[jwirr]

150. It is assumed that if we get entirely out which gives them

an excuse to keep fighting that the leaders of the ME would finally realize that this is their war to end. They help us a little but they all want to fly the planes and no one wants to fight on the ground.

[geek tragedy]

151. We're flying planes right now. So how would affect the calculus on the ground? nt

[jwirr]

154. Okay - but we are not the only ones flying planes - Jordan

and Saudi - to name a few. But who is it that has done anything of much on the ground?

[geek tragedy]

159. Besides Assad and the Iraqis, there's the Kurds, Hezbollah, and Iran nt

[jwirr]

163. Finally. But those are mostly the countries that have already

had trouble with ISIS. They cannot deal with it alone when it is in their country. The whole of the ME must demand this stop. ISIS has to see that they cannot chip off one country at a time. They need to see that the ME has a united demand for the fighting to stop.

[onecaliberal]

10. Hear, hear!

[restorefreedom]

14. but we can't stay out!

how will the greedy corporate mic make their billions?

[99th_Monkey]

17. Oh snap! you're right. What was I thinking?

[restorefreedom]

43. :)

[Thinkingabout]

18. There has already been an attempt on US soil, just as with France, they were attacked on their soil,

on two different occasions. We are not immune to the attacks from ISIS, there could be another attack here.

[bvar22]

24. If we don't stop killing their sons, daughters, mothers and fathers, friends and families,

neighbors, and homes, I GUARANTEE another attack on US soil.

We have already crossed the Rubicon. I believe that when Obama was elected, there was a window
or opportunity for possible healing...but that window closed long ago.
We have murdered so many innocent Iraqis (and Libyans, and Somalis, and Yemenis) that forgiveness is no longer possible. We have radicalized the Middle East. Militant Islam is on the rise....because of US.

These tribal families have long memories, have proven to be very patient, and REVENGE is a part of their ancient culture.
We WILL reap the Whirlwind for our crimes against these people.


Leaving the ME, lock, stock, and barrel,
paying reparations, for all the killing and destruction,
and immediately STOP sending more weapons into that region
is the only sane policy at this point.

I would make sending more weapons to the Middle East a capital crime.

[Thinkingabout]

40. Explain in a competent method how we should sit down with this bunch of terrorists and say

"we're sorry we will not be offending your group any more,please dont kill any of us and capture and rape women and children" and this is going to stop them. The women and children families was nit doing ANY of the killing but it is alright for these thugs to rape any one, male or female. They simply are not rational.

[tecelote]

77. Thanks for the sane and reasonable response.

"I would make sending more weapons to the Middle East a capital crime. "

Here is just what you're suggesting:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027345290

Follow the money and prosecute those profiting from war.

[EX500rider]

111. "If we don't stop killing their sons, daughters, mothers and fathers, friends and families"

Who were we killing on 9/11/01?

[Hydra]

123. "Use the Google!"

As Keith said so well once. Any idea why we didn't target Saudi Arabia for the 9/11 attacks?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6308.htm

January 2001: Tenth anniversary of the U.S. war on Iraq: sanctions are still in place and the UN estimates that 4,500 children are dying per month from disease and malnutrition as a result. The U.S. planes, which have flown over 280,000 sorties in Iraq over the past decade, continue to attack from the air. In the past two years, over 300 Iraqis have been killed in these bombings.

[EX500rider]

139. And that's what motivated a bunch of Saudi murder's in Afghanistan? Unlikely. They hate Iraqi Shia

[bvar22]

140. Over 1/2 MILLION innocent Iraqi children died from the Clinton Sanctions.

Is 1/2 MILLION children enough for you?
There are more.

[EX500rider]

142. And Sunni terrorists in Afghanistan couldn't care less about dead Shia Iraqi's.

[bvar22]

143. That was rude.

You ask me a question.
I responded, and asked you a question in return, "Are a MILLION innocent deaths enough for you?"

Very rude of you to try and change the subject.
Are you afraid of the answer?

[EX500rider]

144. That was neither rude nor changing the subject.

The Saudi Afghan based 9/11 attackers did not care one bit about dead Iraqi Shia. They think all Shia are heretics who deserve death and certainly had nothing to do with their attacks on the west.

[99th_Monkey]

27. Of course "there could be another attack here." Duh.

Last edited Sat Nov 14, 2015, 04:31 PM - Edit history (1)

Not only could there be another attack here, (that is true whether or not we are in
the ME bombing, droning and killing innocents) but it makes it WAY more likely to happen
the more WE keep killing innocent ME civilians and invading and bombing other sovereign
ME nations.

THIS ^ is fueling the cycle big-time, which couldn't be more obvious, to me at least.

[Thinkingabout]

41. What part of this fueled the raping of anyone?

[restorefreedom]

45. have we forgotten so soon?

iraq war
abu ghraib
guantanamo
Libya
and now, syria

they are sociopaths, no argument. but our actions are seen as unwarranted imperialistic attacks against islam/countries that did nothing to us.

[Thinkingabout]

83. I forgot, what did the religious group on the mointain to deserve getting attacked and the women

Kidnapped, raped and abused? Which of the incidents you listed was participated by this group?

[restorefreedom]

86. i said they are sociopaths

they don't need a reason. but our forays into the me where we don't belong certainly fuels their hatred and increases the risk of the west being targeted.

[Thinkingabout]

137. Exactly, they do not need a reason, al-Qaeda did not have a reason to attack on 9/11, hate yes they

hate. This bunch now has to be annihilated, they do not understand peace nor do they want peace. In the case of ISIS they seek to control, it is not the ME military action. Continued saying it is the military action in the ME is wrong.

[restorefreedom]

169. miltary action may solve the immediate problem

i.e. killinng the psychos, but western presence in the me on an ongoing basis allows them to recruit more fighters to deal with the 'invaders'

there is no good solution.

[eridani]

135. Right--let's just invade their countries to make them stop oppressing women

We'll blow the women up, which will prevent them from being raped, obviously.

[99th_Monkey]

46. Killing innocent ME people fuels revenge-seeking. It's pretty simple really.

"who's doing the raping?" <-- I thought this was Trump's line

[Thinkingabout]

84. A religious group on a mountain in Iraq did not attack and kill any member of ISIS.

ISIS members are "given" the females, they are held against their will. This brutal group attacked in France twice, they attempted an attack in the US but it was foiled.

[99th_Monkey]

87. Yes, there are 25,000 ISIS armed murderers & rapists on-the-loose in the ME

I am not disputing that fact. Nor am I in anyway "condoning" or sympathizing with them, so
can we put away that Strawman now?

What I am disputing is the US's knee-jerk militaristic Cops-of-the-World interventionism
in the ME, that only fuels anti-US Jihadism.

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, Pakistan ALL have VERY strong military forces, that are more
than adequate to deal with their own 25,000 armed assholes in 1970 toyota pickups.

Why do you want to bankrupt the US Treasury and spill American blood, only to fuel more violence
and revenge-seeking Jihadism by Muslims who see their sons, daughters, fathers, mothers etc. killed
by US interventionism. ?

[Thinkingabout]

91. For a while this group has only been in the middle east, now in France for a second eave, an attempt

In Texas this year, it is not in the middle was any more.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

104. All the more reason to tell our allies they should spend some of that oil wealth on a task force....

It's not like they don't have the money.

I half expect to hear one of the Saudi Royals is buying a Picasso for 30 gazillion smackers.

[Thinkingabout]

106. It is true ISIS is a problem for the world, now they have shot down a Russian passenger plane so

They apparently think they can hit everyone. Back some years ago there was some kidnapping occurring, the kidnappers made a mistake and grabbed a couple of Russians. Shortly some of the kidnappers were returned to their families with their testicles in their mouth. They left the Russians alone.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

116. It wasn't "shot down". It >may< have been a bomb....

BTW: Isil would take credit for flooding in the Mississippi.

[1StrongBlackMan]

20. Well ...

How about this? Get our US Military OUT of ME countries, period.

And ISIS will just go away!

Please do not embarrass yourself by offering foreign policy advise.

[99th_Monkey]

28. Hint: Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, Pakistan ALL have VERY strong military forces

It's a ME problem, how about ME nations stepping up to deal with their 25,000
murderous assholes?

Why do you want to bankrupt the US Treasury and spill American blood, only to
fuel more violence and revenge-seeking by Muslims who see their sons, daughters,
fathers, mothers etc. killed by US interventionism. ?

[wordpix]

166. news flash: Sale of US Arms Fuels the Wars of Arab States (NYT article)

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/world/middleeast/sale-of-us-arms-fuels-the-wars-of-arab-states.html?_r=0

It's the US that is supplying arms to the nations you list there, minus Iran and possibly Pakistan.

Thank you for destabilizing the ME, GWBushCo

[99th_Monkey]

168. True. So why don't said nations USE the arms GWBush sold them, to take out ISIS? -nt-

[TeddyR]

21. I don't feel like it is as clear cut

As let's just leave the Middle East. As citizens of the world, should we sit idly by and watch ISIS butcher people in Iraq and Syria? I don't think the US can be the world's police, but at the same time I don't think that we should simply allow all butchery. There's been too much of that -- Rwanda and Bosnia come to mind as recent examples. ISIS is comprised of homophobes, misogynists and butchers and is the enemy of every enlightened individual, and is certainly the enemy of liberal Democrats. In fact, I would posit that ISIS is the antithesis of what liberal Democrats believe in.

[99th_Monkey]

29. Iraq and Syria, as well as Iran, Turkey, Pakistan

ALL have their own fucking military forces. I no longer buy the canard that they "need"
the US Military to find a backbone, to deal with their own terrorist assholes.

[TeddyR]

62. You really think that Iraq

Has a military force? Hahahahahaha.

[jwirr]

152. Not a willing one as long as we fight the war for them. That

is why we need to let them solve this on their own.

[Mnpaul]

174. They had one

we disbanded it.

[jwirr]

157. The problem is that we are both the excuse for ISIS to do

what they are doing and a country that has not been of much help since we invaded Iraq. As was said last night this is a war within a religion and as such must be dealt with by the leaders in that religion. I don't believe that the USA is ever going to be able to end this because they are seen as the enemy even by the religion of these people - remember the "Great Satan".

[randome]

22. Oh, so that's why they enslave and brutalize women and children. To get back at us.

Why didn't I see this before?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[riderinthestorm]

23. We need to find and stop the funding!!

The winning candidate will pledge to do what it takes to find and destroy the money chain that's funding ISIS.

Starve the fucking beast! That would be a huge help.

It's an inconvenient truth that it's our "allies" (cough) like the Saudis and the other Gulf States but it's long past time to break off this relationship, expose it to the disinfectant of sunshine and be done with it..

[smirkymonkey]

25. You know, I don't think that would be a bad idea.

However, I don't think that is going to stop them. They want to conquer the western world and turn it into an Islamic Caliphate. Nothing that we can do will change that. These people can not be reasoned with. They want to destroy our way of life and that is all.

[99th_Monkey]

31. It's not about "reasoning" with ISIS, it's about not,continuing to fuel their recruitment campaign

by creating more and more dead children, brothers, mothers, sisters, fathers etc. who are NOT
terrorists, but who never-the-less get killed as collateral damage of US Military activity in the
region.

[smirkymonkey]

34. Do you actually think that will stop them?

I don't. These people are fanatics. It doesn't matter what we do. They have an ideology that will persist regardless of whether we bomb them or not. Personally, I don't think we should continue to bomb them, but I don't think anything we do is going to stop them. They are determined.

[hifiguy]

38. Yep. It's a 9th century mindset that wants to destroy

anything and everything that is not encompassed within it. They are barbarians in the dictionary sense of the word. And reason is useless when battling barbaric nihilists.

A mirror analogy would be the Khmer Rouge, but they turned their nihilistic fury inwards, on the population of only one country. These maniacs turn their inchoate madness outwards at anyone who is unfortunate to cross their path.

[99th_Monkey]

39. How has 15 years of intense US Military intervention in ME worked out for us so far? -nt-

[hifiguy]

55. The ME has been a tribal slaughterhouse for a thousand years.

All the US did was pour more fuel on a fire that has been raging for the better part of a millennium and reshuffle the alliances among the various participants in the ongoing insanity.

[smirkymonkey]

89. If you ask me, we have not been aggressive enough.

We need to destroy those that are funding the terrorists. We need to destroy the Saudis, but we won't do that.

[99th_Monkey]

94. We might start by calling-out Saudi Arabia for their complicity in

turning a blind eye to their own billionaires funding AQ and ISIS,

and insist that SA use their own military to take out ISIS, instead
of expecting US to do their dirty work for them, along with a number
of other ME nations with perfectly capable armed forces.

[smirkymonkey]

131. YES! Thank You!

Saudi involvement! Brilliant!

[RichVRichV]

90. How would they accomplish it?

The only thing they can do to the west is lash out with random attacks such as what happened in France (most of which get stopped before they ever have a chance of happening). They have zero ability to actually wage war on our lands.


Our focus should be on intelligence to stop these types of attacks, not on creating even more enemies in the middle east with more wars. If we want to go after ISIS we should do it by financially bleeding it into irrelevance, which further insulates us from them being a threat. There are plenty of countries already capable and willing to fight ISIS without us.

[blackspade]

130. There is no way that they will 'conquor' the Western world.

That is a senseless fear.

[cilla4progress]

26. This is basically what Bernie says -

at least, the ME countries must step up, with us as backup.

But, when it comes to "our" shores...we being the west? This is an incomplete answers.

[99th_Monkey]

33. Yes. I think he's making sense on this.

it may be too rational and sensible for the US electorate; but I still hope he
makes the case tonight.

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. Does that go for the Yazidis too? Must they leave 'Muslim lands' to stop getting killed?

[tularetom]

32. Um, oil

As long as there is money to be made, we'll never leave the ME.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. But..but...we're helping to spread democracy!! K&R

See Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Congo, Honduras, Nicaragua, Angola, Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan, Chile, and countless other countries we've "helped" and the consequences for precedents.

[99th_Monkey]

52. +10 Exactly! -nt-

[jack_krass]

36. We broke it, we shouldn't just walk away and let them all kill each other

We have a responsibility to help fix it, BUT this should be done in collaboration with the rest of the world, prefferably through the UN.

[Hydra]

124. That would presume that our leaders WANT to fix it, that this was somehow an undesired result

We have not yet seen any evidence to contradict that.

[wordpix]

167. I agree but think we should turn the richie rich neocons upside down & shake out their petrodollars

After they get their fair trials. Let them pay for their misdeeds, not US middle-class and low-income

[hifiguy]

37. It would be an excellent beginning.

But it will do nothing to reduce this kind of terrorism. A not-insignificant number of Muslims want to destroy western civilization simply because it exists.

[msongs]

42. exactly how many not-insignicicant muslims are there? nt

dron

[hifiguy]

49. Itis clearly not an insignificant number

as people from around the world turn up in groups like ISIS and al Qaeda. And their ranks are increasing, not diminishing.

Muslims from my home town of Minneapolis have joined ISIS; the stories have been in the local papers.

And does the precise number of homicidal maniacs, potential homicidal maniacs and homicidal maniac wannabees really matter? I think not.

How many rats carrying plague fleas are too many?

[smirkymonkey]

92. +1000

[jwirr]

158. And this is an excuse we are giving them when we destroy

the whole damned country - all they see is another crusade. The hate of the west is as old as that.

In the invasion of the ME we fulfilled every prophecy of their religion regarding the west - we are the crusaders, the Great Satan, returned to take over their country.

That is the propaganda that they use to recruit for their fight. I wonder how many of the different religious sects agree with that idea? Do we really have any true allies over there?

[TipTok]

48. Ahh... The 'hide under the covers and hope it turns out ok' strategy...

Pass...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. Are we at "Red Alert" yet? Maybe we should "Smoke 'em out" and "Bring it on" again.

Those tactics worked ever so well the last dozen times we threw kerosene on the fires.

[99th_Monkey]

58. No.

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, Pakistan ALL have VERY strong military forces.

It's a ME problem, how about ME nations stepping-up to deal with their own 25,000
murderous assholes?

Why do you want to bankrupt the US Treasury and spill American blood, only to
fuel more violence and revenge-seeking by Muslims who see their sons, daughters,
fathers, mothers etc. killed by US interventionism. ?

[TipTok]

63. That implies we have no interests in the area...

[99th_Monkey]

71. Oh, we have "interests" all right. They're called Exxon, Shell, BP and the US MIC. -nt-

[joshcryer]

102. You dehumanize many people with that idiocy.

[99th_Monkey]

105. Your rude name-calling is hardly an "intelligent" reply

to my merely pointing out the obvious, that US oil interests and MIC are a significant factor
pushing the US to sustained military interventions in the ME.

[joshcryer]

110. The Kurds don't have oil.

And you bet they are grateful no maniacs are in charge who would break their alliance over a small band of psychos.

Think about this stupidity. 5 million Kurds in Iraq, 25k psychos in ISIS and your solution is to break our alliance with the Kurds. (Among many others, just giving an example of how stupid this is.)

They will not be happy until they kill or convert the world. In a civilized world this ideology must be resisted. Period. Fortunately, ISIS ideology is unsustainable, and will rot away eventually.

[polly7]

113. Hunt Oil, a close friend of GW Bush, was the first into Iraq - the Kurdish region. nt.

[Waldorf]

50. Until our Country can find an alternative to oil, we will be staying there. Oil was discovered in

the ME in 1908 by a British company. We've been somehow involved in the region since then. The military will stay to ensure we get that black gold.

[snappyturtle]

88. It's not the oil per se but the petro dollar that keeps us embroiled in the

ME. We get most of our oil from other sources:

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/11/150444802/where-does-america-get-oil-you-may-be-surprised

[guillaumeb]

59. The US must remain in the Middle East until all of our oil is pumped out

from under their ground.

And until Israel stretches from Turkey to the Suez.

[99th_Monkey]

69. That appears to be the US game-plan

They didn't originally call the Iraq invasion Operation Iraqi Liberation for nothing.

[guillaumeb]

74. I never thought of that.

A Freudian slip, no doubt.

[Oneironaut]

61. That's not going to help.

Everybody who doesn't subscribe to their view of Islam is an enemy. Just "leaving them alone" would be like just leaving Hitler alone. They want to forcefully convert or kill anyone who doesn't agree with them. If they ever got their hands on a nuclear weapon, they would immediately use it with the intent of maximizing civilian casualties.

I don't think we can "go over there and kick ass" with boots on the ground, but ISIS needs to be contained and destroyed. They aren't rational. If you just "left them alone," they would still continue to attack.

[99th_Monkey]

66. 20,000 - 30,000 Murderous assholes in 1970 toyota pick-up trucks

do NOT equal Hitler's Armed Forces.

BTW - How has the past 15 years of intense US Military ME intervention worked out for US so far?

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, Pakistan ALL have VERY strong military forces who are sitting home
safe & sound, letting the US deal with their "bad boys" .. it's complete nonsense.

[GoneFishin]

79. Yep. It's bullshit. But people still believe what their TV tells them. Including Fox News.

People believe anything that a guy in a suit on TV tells them. It's pathetic really.

[Oneironaut]

141. It's common sense.

ISIS is a direct threat to the US. Putting our heads in the sand is not going to change that.

[Oneironaut]

138. My point was, do you really think, even if the US left them completely alone, they would stop?

If we pulled out completely and left them completely alone, they wouldn't say, "Oh, the West pulled out and is leaving us alone. Let's do the same." They're going to say, "Good - The West pulled out. Let's expand our operations further and continue our war against the infidel." They don't care if the West is attacking them or not. They will continue to attack regardless of what the West does. They want to take over the world, just like Hitler.

They want to kill you and everyone else. The only way you could change that is by completely converting to Islam and living under their rule. Even then, they would probably still kill you.

[riderinthestorm]

148. We must find and cut off the funding for ISIS (and AQ etc)

it doesn't have to be just pulling out militarily.

We can and should be taking a multi-prong approach.

Starve the beast

[99th_Monkey]

156. Good point re: cutting off ISIS funding sources. -nt-

[99th_Monkey]

155. "They (ISIS) don't care if the West is attacking them or not."

Actually I think they do care, they actually WANT to suck US into endless ME military engagements. In fact,
the stated goal of ISIS is to do just that: draw the US and it's allies into a WWIII apocalyptic bloodbath. I
would rather the US not oblige them in this regard.

I do agree that if the US got completely out of the ME, ISIS would still be a threat, at least in the near
future. However, I stand by my belief that continued US military engagement in the region is one of ISIS's
most powerful recruitment tools, because every time an innocent civilian -- a son, daughter, father, mother, etc
of an Islamist -- is killed, maimed or displaced, it engenders a deeper hatred toward the US and lends more
credence to the notion that the US is the "Great Satan". It is like putting more gasoline on the ME fire, and
I would rather not oblige ISIS recruiters in this regard either.

I am fine with arming the Kurds, strategically, to continue their ground war against ISIS. Secondly, I support
using diplomacy to force our ME allies (Turkey, Pakistan, Jordan, Isreal, et. al.) who have huge standing armies
and all the military hardware we've provided them, to put THEIR boots on the ground to rid the ME of the ISIS
scourge.

Bottom line, we probably still disagree about most of this: so be it. I don't expect to convince you of my POV,
or that you'll convince me otherwise, so perhaps this is where we 'agree to disagree' and move on.

[underpants]

82. Arm up the Kurds and give them a nation if they pull it off

Turkey will never go for but I think that is the most obvious option. Other than getting the Saudii royals to put a foot down on their weird cousins who have been financing the Wahabbis.

[Blue_Tires]

85. If we leave but European nations stay, what's been gained?

And does the ME mean Africa, too?

[B Calm]

97. How many more American soldiers do we sacrifice before we win?

[Blue_Tires]

118. What's your solution, then?

and it needs to be something more substantial than "Just withdraw completely and hope they leave us alone"

[B Calm]

132. So you want to continue wasting American lives fighting an endless war? Myself I

want a complete withdraw just like we did in Vietnam.

[riderinthestorm]

153. We must find and cut off the funding for ISIS (and AQ etc)

it doesn't have to be just pulling out militarily.

We can and should be taking a multi-prong approach.

Starve the beast

[Blue_Tires]

160. That could be a good start

but it would be a monumental undertaking since there are so, so many ways to hide money these days... It's hard enough to track it down in political campaigns, and those are supposed to be *legal* fundraising avenues...

[riderinthestorm]

161. We have our Five Eyes spying already in place

and the NATO countries are now more motivated than ever to begin hard core work on this I believe.

Create an international criminal investigative team.

Start with the Gulf States...

It's not like this is any kind of secret. In 2010, thanks to WikiLeaks, we learned that the State Department, under the direction of then-Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, knew full well where the money for foreign terrorism came from. It came from countries and not from a faith. It came from sovereign states and not from an organized religion. It came from politicians and dictators, not from clerics, at least not directly. It was paid to maintain a political and social order, not to promulgate a religious revival or to launch a religious war. Religion was the fuel, the ammonium nitrate and the diesel fuel. Authoritarian oligarchy built the bomb. As long as people are dying in Paris, nobody important is dying in Doha or Riyadh.

...

It's time for this to stop. It's time to be pitiless against the bankers and against the people who invest in murder to assure their own survival in power. Assets from these states should be frozen, all over the west. Money trails should be followed, wherever they lead. People should go to jail, in every country in the world. It should be done state-to-state. Stop funding the murder of our citizens and you can have your money back. Maybe. If we're satisfied that you'll stop doing it. And, it goes without saying, but we'll say it anyway – not another bullet will be sold to you, let alone advanced warplanes, until this act gets cleaned up to our satisfaction. If that endangers your political position back home, that's your problem, not ours. You are no longer trusted allies. Complain, and your diplomats will be going home. Complain more loudly, and your diplomats will be investigated and, if necessary, detained. Retaliate, and you do not want to know what will happen, but it will done with cold, reasoned and, yes, pitiless calculation. It will not be a blind punch. You will not see it coming. It will not be an attack on your faith. It will be an attack on how you conduct your business as sovereign states in a world full of sovereign states.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a39727/paris-attacks-middle-eastern-oligarchies/

[99th_Monkey]

107. You make some good points re: "A Middle East fully engulfed in war would be an unmitigated disaster"

yet it still fails to address the question, as to what is so unreasonable or infeasible about applying MUCH
more pressure on ME nations with very capable armed forces from stepping-up WAY more to be on the
front lines with boots on the ground to deal with 25,000 armed assholes in 1970s pickup trucks.

Yes of course the US "has a role" but why is it "dreaming" to expect Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Pakistan, Iran,
et. al. to deal with this shit in their own back yards, instead of the US being the Cop of the World for
the above mentioned ME nations?

[joshcryer]

101. Would be easy if we didn't have allies over there.

As it stands now you don't turn your back to those allies.

[hifiguy]

126. With "allies" like Saudi Arabia

one doesn't need enemies. KSA is the worst country - and culture - on this dogforsaken planet.

[joshcryer]

128. Bush actually removed bases from Saudi Arabia.

Which was one of Bin Laden's key demands.

But yes, the day of reckoning is coming. The Saudis can't keep it up.

[dreamnightwind]

108. Agreed, this is all blowback from our troops in their countries

Time to stop fueling the madness.

[99th_Monkey]

109. But good luck trying to point that out, without getting called a "dreamer" and an "idiot"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7345887

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7345785

The WarHawks have got their hard-ons up, and there's no telling where this will take us,
yet it's exactly this kind of interventionst hysteria that GOT us into the ME quagmire in
the first place.

[dreamnightwind]

114. Yes, I've seen that sentiment raging around here

Last edited Sat Nov 14, 2015, 10:03 PM - Edit history (1)

I think many people are just not all that evolved in their thinking, and their views are reactive and derivative, put in place by the MSM zeitgeist.

I may well be a dreamer, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. Sometimes, when you're been walking the wrong path for a long time, you need to re-evaluate what got you into a situation, rather than doubling down. I've been dealing with this in my own life. I think that's where we are as a nation and as a society. Usually there are external signs that such change is needed.

The fires of hate need fuel and oxygen to burn. The fuel is of course the hatred that emerges from other acts of violence and oppression, and the interests of those who profit from war and from the resource extraction industries. The oxygen is all of the attention and hair-on-fire focus given to the latest outrage.

This fire serves the interests of many, from the MIC to the MSM to the politicians they support, and on the other side the extremists who would love to blow our whole system to pieces. And I have to say they have some very valid reasons for that sentiment, which is why I work so hard for us to reform it through the political process. It must change, one way or another.

It's in the interests of the average person, most all of us, to withdraw from the whole war mentality.

We have to radically retool our energy approach anyway because of climate change.

Our troops in their lands will endlessly create more radical terrorists. There is no winning that war, the wars themselves by definition create more enemies.

The ordinary people in those countries are no more our enemy than the ordinary people in our own country. I spent a year as a child in Iran, I have some actual experience with the people there, they're people like us, living in a different context, with the same human needs we have, mostly good-hearted with the usual variance you find in any population.

Before the U.S. was fully captured by corporate interests, we were one of the most loved nations on this earth. Since we've been waging resource wars, and smaller acts of interference (coups, assassination of labor leaders, meddling in elections) in many more nations, all to support corporate interests, we are now hated by literally billions. There is no way to fight our way out of that, it only makes it worse.

Mind our own business when possible, when we have to act, do so as a police action, rather than as a military. Work as hard on restoring positive relations with the people in the middle east as we have worked to secure access to their resources. The vast majority of them don't want endless violence and war, especially not in their lands. And we don't need their resources anymore. With the money we spend on our military, we can retool our energy use to renewables, and we must, because climate change.

Terrorism is, for the most part, the last resort of people who have been completely disempowered in their own lives and nations, and who have no armies to fight for their interests.

We have a serious lack of external perspective in this country. How would it feel to have other countries' troops all over our country? To live in the shadow of drones? To live under governments set up and propped up by a foreign nation?

I can't imagine living in the shadow of drones overhead that can strike out of nowhere at anytime, extinguishing life with massive explosions, killing innocents as well as the people they rightly or wrongly target, where the targeting criteria is entirely in the hands of a foreign power.

If that were happening in our own country, I don't think many of us would see the people resisting it as evil-doers.

Restoring that perspective is the way out of this. In the meantime, some precise anti-terrorist actions will be necessary, but will only help if they are limited to targeting the actual terrorists. Otherwise, we're just adding fuel to the fire.

[99th_Monkey]

117. Thank you for this

It's a very compelling, humane and rational piece of writing ... people seem to so easily forget how
the people in nations we cavalierly dismiss as our "enemies" are just like us in most every way, yet
TPTB get us all hating on each other so easily.

I hope you keep giving voice to your truth and that it gets more widely read than just me.

Definitely OP-worthy IMHO.

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply.

[dreamnightwind]

127. And thanks for your OP

[Drunken Irishman]

112. This is a very simple, naive belief.

Yes, much of the violence we've seen is a direct result of our meddling. No, just leaving ins't going to make 'em peaceful and perfect. Just look at Iraq, we pulled pretty much everyone out of there and it got worse. Not better. The damage is done and won't be undone by waving a wand and hoping the terrorists magically reach rational thought.

The fact is, they HATE us. That hate isn't going to end the second we isolate ourselves from the world community. It's illogical to believe that type of hatred that leads to these people beheading and slaughtering thousands of innocents will just vanish if we pull completely out of the Mideast.

Your problem is believing we're dealing with a rational group. We're not.

[99th_Monkey]

119. I think you misunderstand my POV

I'm not saying to completely disengage or isolate; but I am saying that our role in the ME
needs to change drastically, from being the first-line Cops of the World whenever military
action in the ME is called for. This only fuels even more fanatical anti-US Jihadist fury.

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, Pakistan ALL have VERY strong military forces, that are more
than capable to deal with 25,000 armed murderous assholes in 1970 toyota pickups. These
(except perhaps Iran) are supposed to be our "allies", so they need to begin acting like it.

I don't want to continue to bankrupt the US Treasury and spill American blood, only to fuel more
violence and revenge-seeking Jihadism by Muslims who see the US as their #1 enemy because
their sons, daughters, fathers, mothers etc. are being killed by US interventionism on a daily
basis.

[Drunken Irishman]

120. Unfortunately, the house is on fire...

Just leaving the house isn't going to end the fire. This could have been stopped back in the early 00s but so much tension and hatred has built out of the Afghanistan/Iraq Wars that we've reached the boiling point - the point of no return.

If we completely remove ourselves from the ME, they're not going to be happy. They're not going to be pacified - they're going to continue hating and no one will be there to stop 'em.

Look at what happened between the 90s and 00s. We were waging conflicts in the ME, but not at near the level we did in the 80s/early 90s under Reagan-Bush. Yet bin Laden's hatred and reasoning behind 9/11 was entirely tied to something that happened a decade earlier with the first Gulf War.

9/11 wasn't blowback for anything that recently happened in terms of U.S. foreign policy. It was blowback from something that happened years before.

My point is that these people hate and hate is inherently irrational. The war has already begun in their minds. We can remove ourselves but that war will only continue.

And they'll continue plotting against us, despite disengagement from the region. Worse, though, they'll be able to build their ranks.

There is nothing logical or rational about ISIS or even al-Qaeda. Because of that, ignoring it, or removing ourselves from the situation, won't solve anything.

[99th_Monkey]

121. My very first sentence of last post: " I'm not saying to completely disengage or isolate"

Then you respond saying "Just leaving the house isn't going to end the fire" and "If we
completely remove ourselves from the ME..."



How can I take anything else you say seriously when you insist on attacking a straw man
of your own making, even after I flatly stated that it isn't what I'm saying?

[Drunken Irishman]

129. We have as limited of a role in the ME as we've had since 9/11 occurred.

There are fewer boots on the ground in that region than in 2008. Yet it hasn't stopped 'em one bit. Pulling out of Iraq in 2011 didn't stop 'em one bit.

So, what's an acceptable level of disengagement?

[99th_Monkey]

136. You rightly point to a vacuum of military force in the region

And it's that vacuum that I don't feel is the US's role anymore, if it ever was.

Saudi Arabia, Jordon, Turkey, Israel, Pakistan ALL have VERY strong military forces, that are more
than capable of dealing decisively with 25,000 armed murderous assholes in 1970 toyota pickups.
These nations are supposed to be our "allies", so they need to begin acting like it, especially in
their own back yards; instead of expecting the US to do it for them.

There's a good reason Russia left Afghanistan in 1989

[Drunken Irishman]

170. Thing is, we're responsible...

It's kinda shitty for us to pull back after all the destruction and say, "oh well." - especially when it's leading to the slaughter of thousands of innocent people who can't defend themselves.

[smirkymonkey]

145. +1000

[jwirr]

162. IMO our first mistake was to see 9/11 as a military problem.

Is it entirely too late to change this into what it should have been in the first place - a criminal case? What I mean is in response to the hate that will indeed continue we would use our resources to prevent them from reaching into Europe and the USA with terrorist acts.

And yes I know - nothing works perfectly. But by being the main force at war in their countries we are merely building more hatred daily. And I am also not assuming that the war in the ME will come to an end easily. They are not just going to set down and vote for a leader. They are going to fight it out until the strongest one wins.

The CIA is correct and we had better realize that as climate change, water shortages and droughts causing food shortages get worse there is going to more and more of this tension in the world.

[azmom]

115. No one has any solutions for this mess.

It's a quagmire within a quagmire. I say we get the hell out of there.

[99th_Monkey]

122. I agree. It's not a solution exactly, but it's what we are left with, thanks to GWB

and whoever voted for invading Iraq.

I really like Bernie's position re: calling the bluff of our supposed ME "allies" i.e.
Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Israel, Pakistan, et. al. all of which have very capable
armed forces, to step-up and deal with this ISIS mess, since it IS in their back
yards, not ours.

Play a supportive role? Of course. But be the ME Cops of the World? not so much.

[Yupster]

133. How about we just stay out of Muslim lands?"

Do we recognize the concept of Muslim lands?

I don't.

[CJCRANE]

134. Many of them weren't "muslim lands" per se, they were secular

with christians and other minorities accepted, until the west intervened and removed the secular regimes.

[Yupster]

164. Yeah we made them do it

We sure are bad fellas.

[CJCRANE]

165. Well our gulf allies are islamists

and we supported islamist rebels in Libya and Syria, so we had some influence over the matter.

[WinkyDink]

146. That will have ZERO impact on the ideology of conquest of ISIS. ZEEE-RO.

[CJCRANE]

149. Ideology is only a part of it. What matters are funds and supply routes.

Cut their funding, cut off their supply routes, reimpose the borders in Europe, sanction any country or individual that funds them.

[WinkyDink]

172. But there are, for lack of a better word, cells already in central Europe. Just like with Munich '72

[craigmatic]

171. Too late for that we're already there. The question is what to do now.

Obama is probably supporting the Iraqis and the Kurds with materials which is probably the smart thing to do. Let the Russians fight in Syria.