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ananda

(28,865 posts)
Sat Nov 14, 2015, 03:51 PM Nov 2015

"Carthago delenda est."

Since 9/11 and the Bush Doctrine of seeking to attack a country or group
simply because it might be a threat in the future, I have been thinking
of the similar philosophy of the degenerating Roman Empire and those
haunting words of Cato the Elder, who would end every speech with a
version of "Carthago delenda est" (Carthage must be destroyed). Indeed,
the Punic Wars of Rome seem to have served as a kind of harbinger for what
Bush and the USA adopted as primary tactics, and that mindset still
resonates as some have been calling for ISIS to be destroyed. And then,
once it is dealt with, scorched earth and all, they'll start thinking like
Scipio and want to salt the battlefield (in some modern form) for good
measure.

Rome also exhibited too much arrogance, to the point of hubris, as each
emperor became more and more willful, eccentric, and decadent... until
at last, Rome fell. Can we say that the warmongers, the profiteers, and
the MIC are now also arrogant and willful because there are no real
checks and balances to keep them in line?

I am also reminded of Nietzsche's cautionary words to this effect: beware
of fighting monsters lest you become one. Sometimes I think we came
out of the war with Nazi Germany and somehow turned into a neofascist
monster state as a result of that engagement. Now it looks as though it
has turned into a never-ending cycle, like morphed shades of a rather
grotesque eternal recurrence of empire, crusade, torture, and terrorism.

Enough.




14 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
5. I wouldn't use Carthage as an example
Sat Nov 14, 2015, 04:03 PM
Nov 2015

After Carthage was destroyed, Roman power was practically uncontested in the western Mediterranean. They flourished and then became the most powerful state Europe has ever seen.

Conquering and incorporating northern Africa made them powerful.

DavidDvorkin

(19,479 posts)
7. That happened during the vigorous days of a growing Roman Republic
Sat Nov 14, 2015, 04:03 PM
Nov 2015

Not during a degenerate Roman Empire.

ananda

(28,865 posts)
8. Thanks. Emendation.
Sat Nov 14, 2015, 04:11 PM
Nov 2015

Since 9/11 and the Bush Doctrine of seeking to attack a country or group
simply because it might be a threat in the future, I have been thinking
of the similar philosophy of the burgeoning Roman Empire and those
haunting words of Cato the Elder, who would end every speech with a
version of "Carthago delenda est" (Carthage must be destroyed). Indeed,
the Punic Wars of Rome seem to have served as a kind of harbinger for what
Bush and the USA adopted as primary tactics, and that mindset still
resonates as some have been calling for ISIS to be destroyed. And then,
once it is dealt with, scorched earth and all, they'll start thinking like
Scipio and want to salt the battlefield (in some modern form) for good
measure.

Rome also exhibited too much arrogance, to the point of hubris, as over time
each emperor became more and more willful, eccentric, and decadent... until
at last, Rome fell. Can we say that the warmongers, the profiteers, and
the MIC are now also arrogant and willful because there are no real
checks and balances to keep them in line?

I am also reminded of Nietzsche's cautionary words to this effect: beware
of fighting monsters lest you become one. Sometimes I think we came
out of the war with Nazi Germany and somehow turned into a neofascist
monster state as a result of that engagement. Now it looks as though it
has turned into a never-ending cycle, like morphed shades of a rather
grotesque eternal recurrence of empire, crusade, torture, and terrorism.

Enough.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,320 posts)
11. You need to change more than 'degenerate' to 'burgeoning'
Sat Nov 14, 2015, 04:46 PM
Nov 2015

It didn't happen during the Empire at all. It happened during the Republic, when they had 'checks and balances'. There was no emperor for over a century after Cato the elder, and Rome reached its peak of power over a century after that. The internal struggle about who had power was far more important to how Rome developed than which rival was defeated, and how.

ananda

(28,865 posts)
13. OK.
Sat Nov 14, 2015, 05:53 PM
Nov 2015

Since 9/11 and the Bush Doctrine of seeking to attack a country or group simply because it might be a threat in the future, I have been thinking of the similar philosophy of the burgeoning Roman Empire and those haunting words of Cato the Elder, who would end every speech with a version of "Carthago delenda est" (Carthage must be destroyed). Then the Roman general Scipio Aemelianus took his troops and made it so. Indeed, the Punic Wars of Rome seem to have served as a kind of harbinger for what Bush and the USA adopted as primary tactics, and that mindset still resonates as some have been calling for ISIS to be destroyed. And then, once it is dealt with, scorched earth and all, they'll start thinking like Scipio and want to salt the battlefield (in some modern form) for good measure.

I suppose I can be called to task for comparing Carthage to a relatively amorphous terror group, especially since Carthage was actually destroyed and Iraq as a substitute for al-Qaeda and Wahabbist Saudi Arabia was not destroyed in the same scorched earth/salted battlefield sense, but instead al-Qaeda or some form of it transmogrified or morphed into ISIS. However, for both Rome and the USA, neither Carthage nor Iraq question posed an actual threat but was rather perceived as a possible threat, that possibility being used as an excuse for attacks made for ulterior reasons that the public might not so easily support.

In a more direct sense, Gaza might be seen as a closer correlative to Carthage, perhaps indirectly cautionary for the USA as an ally of Israel. But, more cautionary for the USA and Europe was using the pretense of imminent threat as an excuse for attacking countries who posed no actual threat or for bombing regions where terrorists are located, when the actual reason was more of a question of economic hegemony and mercenary profiteering, a matter of cynical “qui bono” and never a one of preserving and protecting the higher aims of liberty, equality, or democracy.

However, now that ISIS has proven to be more of an actual threat to Europe, the parallel with Rome is more apt than ever although the idea of destroying an amorphous terrorist group that hides itself among various civilian populations seems rather irrational. ISIS delenda est; but the question is, where is it? And what will have to be destroyed in order to root it out? The entire Levant? The entire Middle East? Then what? All Muslims living in western countries? It gets to be a reductio absurdum of really sinister proportions.

Rome also exhibited too much arrogance, to the point of hubris, as over time it became an empire gradually declining, with each emperor becoming more and more willful, eccentric, and decadent... until at last, Rome fell. Can we say that the warmongers, the profiteers, and western leaders are now also arrogant and willful because there are no real checks and balances to keep them in line?

I am also reminded of Nietzsche's cautionary words to this effect: beware of fighting monsters lest you become one. Sometimes I think we came out of the war with Nazi Germany and somehow turned into a neofascist monster state as a result of that engagement. Now it looks as though it has turned into a never-ending cycle, like morphed shades of a rather grotesque eternal recurrence of empire, crusade, torture, and terrorism.

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
14. There was no empire. Rome was a republic.
Mon Nov 23, 2015, 07:24 AM
Nov 2015

This is starting to be like that scene in Life of Brian.

Also it was Scipio Afracanus who legendarily salted the earth. The person generally called Scipio was Lucius Cornelius Scipio, Council of Rome and father of Scipio Afracanus. He did not see his son's triumph. Why you ask? Because he was killed by the Carthaginians in the Second Punic War. When Hannibal invaded.

Honestly, you picked the best example where a war of aggression solved something.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
9. And the Roman empire collapsed completely a mere 1599 years later.
Sat Nov 14, 2015, 04:19 PM
Nov 2015

619 years later if you want to count the strategic withdrawal from the poorer and harder to defend western empire.

Also Carthage was a mercantile empire based on shipping. Other than being in North Africa it has precisely fuck all to do with IS.

Could everybody please stop making historical arguments if you're not any good at history? It makes the baby Jesus cry.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
10. "Carthage must be destroyed" is kind of an understated translation...
Sat Nov 14, 2015, 04:29 PM
Nov 2015

The context of the time was closer to "Carthage must be wiped off the face of the map/erased from existence" with the chilling decree of Not one stone will be standing on another by the time we're done -- This wasn't a matter of the Romans simply conquering a people to bring them in line: Military aged men slaughtered, women and children enslaved, crops burnt, fields sewn with salt, wealth taken, and historical records destroyed...

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
12. Three things:
Sat Nov 14, 2015, 05:40 PM
Nov 2015

1) The Roman Empire didn't exist as an entity until 27 BC, when Octavian was declared Caesar Augustus after defeating both the assassins who killed Julius Caesar and then his former ally Marc Antony. The Third Punic War was fought almost 120 years before that.

2) The Empire peaked in power under Trajan, during the 2nd century CE, almost two hundred years after Carthage was destroyed.

3) The Western Empire went into decline due to ineffective leadership, corruption in the civil service and military, and an inability to defend its borders from the barbarians in the British Isles and Central Europe.

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