I'm with Keith (Ellison, D-MN) ... it's "Daesh", not Islamic State because: "They are neither...

[ChisolmTrailDem]

...Islamic nor are they a state."

They hate being called "Daesh", saying they will cut out the tongue of anyone using it. So, like Keith, I'm going to call them Daesh.

You probably will not, as you've already been asked several times and have failed to do so.

[Throd]

1. Daesh it is. "Evil Bag of Dicks" works too.

I never understood why we refer to them by the name of their choosing.

[forest444]

55. DOUCHE is more like it.

And what we need is an international coalition that can not only dash the douchebags to pieces - but who'll finally do something about their sugar daddy: SAUDI ARABIA.

[NaturalHigh]

75. Heh.

[NaturalHigh]

2. First time I've read this.

Daesh works for me.

[Codeine]

3. Not Islamic my ass.

I'm fucking weary of people making that excuse.

[Marr]

43. So am I. And liberals, of all people.

Women, gays, intellectuals, atheists, free thinkers of any stripe are the particular targets of that group, and they aren't just doing it because it sounded like a neat idea. They're doing it because of their religion.

I do not understand this bizarre push on behalf of so many western liberals to rehabilitate the image of a religion that they aren't even a part of. I mean, how fucking weird is it for some western atheist/christian/pagan/whatever to point at a jihadist-- someone is openly and proudly murdering/terrorizing people in the name of his religion-- and say, 'he's no Muslim'?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

54. Tell that to Muhammad Ali or Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

[JDPriestly]

61. Does anyone belong who is not Islamic? No.

Does it call itself Islamic? Yes.

Do other Islamic people want to recognize it as Islamic? Some do. Some don't.
So I would say it is Islamic but it does not represent all Islamic people, just some of them.

But yes, it is Islamic. It is not the entirety of the Muslim religion. But it is a part of it.

And all people of the Muslim religion who disapprove of it need to express their disapproval and explain to young Muslims why they disapprove.

Good point that you make.

[leftynyc]

77. Screaming

Allahu Akbar is apparently not Islamic enough for some people. Weary is the least of my emotions.

[treestar]

92. look at the video in post 52.

It is their claiming to be the Islamic State - they are not, they are just a terror group.

[trotsky]

4. I love Keith but I disagree with half of that.

They are indeed Islamic. Not HIS version of Islam - thankfully - but they have their own interpretation.

How is it pronounced? DAY-esh?

[ChisolmTrailDem]

6. They are definitely different enough from Islam that they can be considered to be something else. nt

[Marr]

44. According to who? Not Pew polls. Not the Quran. Not the Hadith. /nt

[jwirr]

83. Do you really believe that we can determine the meaning

of words with a poll?

[Marr]

87. I don't understand your question. I was referring to opinion polling that has shown

strong majority support in the Muslim community for statements like, 'the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists deserved to be prosecuted for drawing cartoons of Muhammad', 'it should be illegal to criticize Islam', and in many places even 'suicide bombing is often a legitimate tactic'.

Fundamentalist views are mainstream views in the Muslim world. Keith Ellison is an outlier here, not the representation of the 'real Islam'. Claiming otherwise is just telling yourself a feel-good story that isn't true.

I don't understand why people insist that these moderate types of people, regardless of religion, who (very sanely) ignore whole swaths of their religious texts, dismissing them as metaphor or allegory or just plain, outdated garbage, are somehow more legitimately pious than people who live their entire lives according to the dictates of their holy book. It's absolutely backward.

[Codeine]

51. Different in that they recite the exact same prayers

to the exact same deity at the exact same times all over the world? Or different in that they worship in the same language, using the same book, all across the globe?

These people would happily kill me for being an atheist. They would kill my friends for being Jews, gays, or pagans. Why the rush to defend the indefensible?

Fuck them. Fuck their beliefs.

[randys1]

76. And from there just a hop, skip and a jump to assuming refugees are dangerous cuz

they are mostly Muslim.

Maybe we only close the Mosques where really stern looking men are in charge....

Yep

[Marr]

94. You can't ignore reality because someone else might use it for ill.

Though I'll be the first to admit, I've often resisted agreeing with people on some of these points-- and even argued against them-- for exactly that reason. In hindsight, however, I think that's wrong. It's much simpler and to discuss the world as it is, warts and all, not just take sides according to where the political line of scrimmage falls that day.

[Codeine]

96. Total non-sequitur. nt

[randys1]

97. So your unfounded fear of refugees has no negative consequences?

[Codeine]

99. The fuck? I have zero problems with refugees.

This is about the ridiculous denial by a certain segment of the left that ISIS/ISIL/Daesh isn't Islamic.

Do they represent the whole of the religion? Of course not.

Are they representative of a movement and a tendency within Islam? Absofuckinglutely. Ii is patently absurd to assert otherwise.

I'm completely fine with Syrian refugees being allowed entry into this country and into my state. Immigration of all sorts is a net positive IMHO.

[KamaAina]

7. Dah-ESH, I think.

Though I don't speak arabic.

[brucefan]

18. President Obama used it in Turkey

He pronounced it Dash

[KamaAina]

26. NOOOOOOO!!!!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027350366

[spedtr90]

52. Pronounced Dah-sh (video - includes what it means)

[treestar]

90. very helpful thanks

I also came across the Muslim Brotherhood idea, or that of its founder, that they "excommunicate" other Muslims who are not so extreme and will attack them as infidels.

[Rotegard]

64. Keith is right its Daesh

There are over 1.6 Billion people on this planet professing one of the many forms of Islam. Calling Daesh IS, ISIL, or ISIS is buying into its claim to represent the only "legitimate" Islam. Sufi teachers in the west, like the late Idries Shah or Pir Vilayet Khan will tell you that fundamentalists from the Islamic tradition usually are more fanatical than their Christian or Hindu counterparts. Many of the most enlightened and creative people I have known have come from Islam and that Includes Keith. Don't buy into Daesh's BS.

[treestar]

91. Exactly.

Thinking of all the Muslims in India, Indonesia, or other places who are just living their lives and might be considered "infidels" by the members of Daesh. We need that word in the dictionary too as it auto corrects to Dash.

[backscatter712]

72. Religion is something that is self-identified.

Sort of like sexual orientation or gender identity - if a person says he or she is gay or trans, for example, the civilized, respectful thing to do is to respect the person's self-identity statements.

Daesh self-identifies as Islamic, so they're Islamic.

I do understand that there are plenty of flavors of Islam that are not batshit and murderous though.

[treestar]

89. The point IMO is that they do not have an "Islamic State"

or, we do not want them to succeed with that, as they would be as bad or worse than the Taliban.

[ck4829]

5. Saying Daesh is Islamic, saying they have a state, saying the Muslims they kill are the apostates...

If anyone says that, they might as well be handing them guns and ammo, just cut out the middleman.

[TwilightGardener]

8. They're Islamic. Extreme radical Islam. I'm tired of this denial shit.

It doesn't impugn all Muslims to point out that they have some really bad--even evil--elements in their religion and in their religious governments, like SA.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

12. So, you won't call them daesh?

Is "ISIS" too cool, like action movie cool?

[TwilightGardener]

15. I think too much is made of "oh, they hate Daesh so let's call them that"--

I think that's kind of an overblown myth that grew legs and makes people feel like they're doing something. I call them ISIS. I don't think it matters a goddamn what they're called.

[jwirr]

85. But using Islamic paints the refugees in the same light.

Daesh allows us to separate them.

[philosslayer]

29. From this point forward i will only refer to them as Daesh

Because that other name (unfairly) links them with peace loving Muslims. Which Daesh is not.

[brooklynite]

100. I trust you won't be complaining about the Westboro Baptist Church in the future...

...since clearly they're "not Christian".

[leftynyc]

78. I just think it's as

fucking stupid as those who trash the President for not saying Islamic Extremists. Who cares what we call them? When they stop killing in the name of Allah, I'll stop calling them Islamic.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

79. They care what we call them. So, I will call them what that hate to be called: Daesh. nt

[leftynyc]

80. Because they'll know

what anonymous posters on the internet call them? I just don't see the point in this discussion.

[pnwmom]

35. They are to Islam what the KKK is to Christianity.

We don't call the KKK Radical Christians, nor followers of David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.

We shouldn't call these terrorist jihadists Radical Islamists.

[TwilightGardener]

38. No, I think the comparison with Westboro to Christians below is pretty apt, actually.

Just an ugly, extreme perversion of a religion--what happens when you take teachings and beliefs to their most ludicrous exaggerated ends.

[Lordquinton]

60. We should.

I agree that calling them a state gives them too much legitimacy, but they follow the same book, and I know several peace loving Muslim countries where an atheist like many here would be murdered for apostasy just as fast as they would by daesh.

[doc03]

39. I agree 100%, it's not radical Presbyterians murdering people. I quess that is Obama's

latest thing to be politically correct or his idea of a strategy to rid the world of the SOBs.

[jwirr]

84. There is not a religion on earth that has not been used by

someone for evil. And many times.

I love genealogy and always wanted to find a Jesse James in my tree. Well I did finally find the bad guy I was looking for but I would love to deny him.

He turns out to have been one of the most evil Christian crusaders in history. That also does not impugn all Christians. But it happened.

When we call them Islamic without any explanation we are saying that they are all alike. Daesh gives this evil group an explanation that divides them from people like Keith.

[treestar]

88. It is not denying they are Islamic

It is denying that they have the "Islamic State" they claim to want.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

9. Yes, they are Islamic! It's ridiculous to keep saying they aren't!

They are Islam's version of Westboro Baptist Church, but with the power to chop off heads and throw gays off of rooftops.

UGH

How many of those suicide bombers do you think expect to be meeting their 72 virgins? I'd bet virtually every one of them!

[ChisolmTrailDem]

10. So, you disagree with Ellison. Got it. I will still call them "Daesh". I don't see why...

...we all can't do that.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

21. Daesh is a perfectly good name to me

Why we should refer to them as the Islamic State as if they are a state is beyond me.

[pnwmom]

36. When you start calling the KKK "Radical Christians"

I'll consider calling them Radical Islamists.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

40. I think they're probably mostly Christians

however loosely affiliated. (And WRONG.) I don't think it's a requirement, though, I don't exactly know.

While some may justify their beliefs with the bible, do they routinely actually claim to act in God's name and holler "Jehovah" when they commit a crime?

I think the better analogy is Westboro Baptist. These people are extremist Christians who claim to be acting in God's name.

[Brigadier Pudding]

53. Explain something to me then

How does ISIS's wars of conquest differ from Muhammad and the first Muslim's wars of conquest?

[ColesCountyDem]

71. For one thing, Muhammad isn't leading them.

[closeupready]

11. Oh gawd. People are so silly.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

14. Ellison is silly, or I'm silly for agreeing with him? Or both? nt

[closeupready]

19. Both.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

20. "Daesh" it is! I guess I'm just silly that way...

[jwirr]

86. Yes they are - they do not seem to realize that using the

wrong names allows the kind of hatred we are seeing for all Muslims. The are daesh.

[Journeyman]

13. How is "Daesh" pronounced?. . .

Is it with a long A, like "base," or a short A, like "bash"? Or is it something different, where both the A and the E are vocalized?

And then there's the question of how to pronounce the "sh" at the end -- hard or soft?

I'm not being snarky. I just rarely watch televised news, so have no idea how to pronounce it.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

16. Ellison pronounced it "Day-sh". nt

[closeupready]

17. And the Christian geniuses here who know what Islam is and what it isn't,

even though they are living in backwater USA ...

If the SCTV cast were doing their thing today, they'd be really busy.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

25. No true Scotsman, huh?

Are Baptists Christians?
Methodists?
Catholics?

Fundamentalist Christians might argue that Catholics aren't really Christian, but most of the world lumps then in with the Christians - at least, for the bashing part.

[LanternWaste]

22. I'm certain they will afford you all the attention your actions indeed warrant

I'm certain they will afford you all the attention your nomenclature indeed warrants. No doubt, sticking your tongue out at them will affect them much the same...

[ChisolmTrailDem]

24. Yea, Ellison is sticking his tongue out at them. Thanks for playing. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

23. Does Keith say the same about KSA? How about Brunei?

Keith, too many States say they murder LGBT and artists to be Islamic for you to be able to wave it all away with split hairs and sophistry.

[arcane1]

27. What does "Daesh" mean? It's new to me.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

28. Perhaps you'll find an answer here: (My apologies, my leisure time on DU has run out for the day)...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Daesh&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

[mishi48.59]

32. they hate the name . . . .that's reason enough for me

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/123909/world-leaders-have-taken-to-calling-isis-daesh-a-word-the-islamic-state-hates

[geardaddy]

30. Besides ISIS is the spy agency from Archer

[Liberalagogo]

56. WAS the spy agency

ISIS was dropped in season six, because of the terrorist group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_%28season_6%29

[geardaddy]

58. Oops, yeah, I forgot.

[cpwm17]

73. That reminds me of this unfortunately named product:

[treestar]

93. I dislike the goddess getting mixed up with it too!

[IMG][/IMG]

[geardaddy]

102. +1

[mwrguy]

31. "ISIL is not Islamic. No religion condones the killing of innocents." - Barack Obama

[MBS]

42. + 1000 n/t

[maxsolomon]

62. However, they do condone the killing of Apostates.

Or is that in dispute?

[Blue_In_AK]

33. The first time I saw that term used

was by a photographer friend in northern Iraq who was posting pics of Kobane refugee kids. He explained to me that it is the derisive term used by locals.

[FSogol]

34. "You probably will not, as you've already been asked several times and have failed to do so."

[muriel_volestrangler]

37. What's in a name? A whole lot these days

We have arguments about whether we need to be using 'Daesh', and not the English equivalent 'ISIS' or 'ISIL' (and we had discussions, though not so heated, about which of those was better to use); whether 'Islamic State' is ever appropriate (the BBC was criticised for sometimes using that, and now uses more frequently "so-called Islamic State", though I've also seen atheists criticising them for that because that was taken as implying they're not really Islamic, and they wanted "the Islamic so-called State" instead, despite the ugliness of that phrasing); and whether they should/can/must be called "radical Islam", "militant Islam", "Islamic terrorists", and the difference between Islam/Islamist/Islamic/Islamicist.

What I find notable is the amount of bad faith assumed about people who don't use the exact language that a complainant insists on. I think this is a 'first world problem' par excellence, and may be a symptom of our uselessness in prioritisation.

[FSogol]

57. Completely agree, assuming bad faith about the people here in general is crappy. n/t

[LuvNewcastle]

70. I agree, muriel. Silliness.

[MBS]

41. The extra cool thing about this is that Cong. Ellison is himself Muslim

So if anyone has the authority to explain why it's important to use "Daesh", it's him.
As you said: if Ellison says to do this, then we should.

[geardaddy]

45. He's my rep and I'm glad he is.

He is awesome.

[MBS]

50. great to get confirmation from an insider! : ) n/t

[geardaddy]

46. Technically it's (DFL-MN)

[Marr]

47. Yeah, that'll um... show 'em.

I guess.

[Codeine]

63. Never let it be said we aren't willing to sacrifice. nt

[CJCRANE]

48. ISIS is what it is.

It's kind of like the Teabaggers: the name they gave themselves is memorable for all the wrong reasons.

[WDIM]

49. Daesh would be better than ISIS.

Obama calls then ISIL which is also better

Isis is a goddess not a terrorist.

They are islamic but they are not a state nor are they the Islamic State. I agree we should not be calling then a State or caliphate. They are a roving gang of thugs and tyrannical butchers. Daesh is a much more fitting term.

I think US media sticks with ISIS because its catchier andbrolls off the tongue. It more about propaganda then being correct.

[oberliner]

59. Daesh means Islamic State in Arabic

It's an acronym, identical to ISIS, but in Arabic.

[Rotegard]

68. Also a pun in Arabic

Can be construed as Arabic term for stomping, or a bigot who sows discord. The Pun is why they will cut out your tongue if you call them that.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

65. They most certainly are Islamic

They most certainly are NOT representative of the vast majority of Muslims, no more than Westboro Baptist is representative of the vast majority of Christians, but to claim they aren't Islamic is laughable.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

66. Well, alrighty then! Rep. Ellison and myself are sufficiently, most certainly admonished! nt

[SickOfTheOnePct]

69. If you choose to feel that I've admonished you

Have at it, that's your choice.

But keep in mind that you've been admonishing people from the start of this thread, basically saying that anyone that doesn't agree with you and Ellison are wrong.

Sauce. Goose. Gander.

[moondust]

67. Satan, The Devil, Lucifer, Old Scratch, Old Nick...

Does it matter? ISIS is easy to recognize and remember.

[NaturalHigh]

74. Kick

[SoCalDem]

81. and, it's pronpounced "dye-esh"..not DASH

like Kerry calls it..

I always bristle every time I hear one of our "leaders" say EYE-rack, instead of EEEEErock


If you are going to acknowledge a thing, person,place, at least pronounce the name properly....the way THEY say it..

[Codeine]

95. Do you say "Paree" or "Paris"?

Is Angela Merkel from Germany or Deutschland? Are you the sort of person who likes to mention the time he went to "Barthelona"?

Every culture mispronounces the names of foreign places and people. My own state was governed by a man whose accent was so thick he never quite managed to pronounce the name of the place correctly.

Also, dye-esh isn't exactly right either. It's closer than what Kerry manages, but it's still off.

[backscatter712]

101. To be fair, the Arabic letters for the Daesh acronym have a letter that has no English equivalent.

Arabic letters and Arabic phonemes do not map 1-to-1 with English letters and phonemes, so trying to express how to pronounce Daesh using English letters and pronunciations never quite gets it right.

[jwirr]

82. Thank you. I have been sending donations to Keith even

though he is not in my district but I like where he stands. So from now on Daesh.

[brooklynite]

98. Disagree...

They are a State in that they control AND administer territory and population.

They are Islamic in that they govern themselves based on an interpretation of Islam.