Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
Wed Nov 18, 2015, 07:00 PM Nov 2015

No, Muslims Are Not More Violent Than People of Other Religions. Here Are the Facts to Prove It.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/no_muslims_are_not_more_violent_than_people_of_other_religions_20151115

Contrary to what is alleged by bigots like Bill Maher, Muslims are not more violent than people of other religions. Murder rates in most of the Muslim world are very low compared to the United States.

As for political violence, people of Christian heritage in the twentieth century polished off tens of millions of people in the two world wars and colonial repression. This massive carnage did not occur because European Christians are worse than or different from other human beings, but because they were the first to industrialize war and pursue a national model. Sometimes it is argued that they did not act in the name of religion but of nationalism. But, really, how naive. Religion and nationalism are closely intertwined. The British monarch is the head of the Church of England, and that still meant something in the first half of the twentieth century, at least. The Swedish church is a national church. Spain? Was it really unconnected to Catholicism? Did the Church and Francisco Franco’s feelings toward it play no role in the Civil War? And what’s sauce for the goose: much Muslim violence is driven by forms of modern nationalism, too.

I don’t figure that Muslims killed more than 2 million people or so in political violence in the entire twentieth century, and that mainly in the Iran-Iraq War 1980-1988 and the Soviet and post-Soviet wars in Afghanistan, for which Europeans bear some blame (the secular nationalist Young Turks also committed genocide against the Armenians during an invasion of eastern Anatolia by Russia).

Compare that to the Christian European tally of, oh, lets say 100 million (16 million in WW I, 60 million in WW II– though some of those were attributable to Buddhists in Asia– and millions more in colonial wars.)
64 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
No, Muslims Are Not More Violent Than People of Other Religions. Here Are the Facts to Prove It. (Original Post) KamaAina Nov 2015 OP
Where does female genital mutilation fall on that metric? NickB79 Nov 2015 #1
FGM is a regional practice in north and east Africa, not a Muslim practice KamaAina Nov 2015 #3
Not practiced by the majority of Muslims. Crunchy Frog Nov 2015 #4
yeah it's just a couple million girls a year no big deal right? snooper2 Nov 2015 #61
a ringing endorsement: "my" religion is less murderous than "your" religion lol (not referring to msongs Nov 2015 #2
We'll just have to wait to see what kind of tally they can run up, then. maxsolomon Nov 2015 #5
Because Maher opened his yap most recently. KamaAina Nov 2015 #6
And he also has a weekly TV show upon which BuelahWitch Nov 2015 #27
Exactly! cpwm17 Nov 2015 #7
Anyone have a link to that actual study? Lee-Lee Nov 2015 #22
Here's more I found from the author of the study cpwm17 Nov 2015 #25
The fact that he hasn't published his work anywhere for people to review makes me question more Lee-Lee Nov 2015 #49
The ongoing 'Othering' of Muslims is calculated. Maedhros Nov 2015 #8
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Nov 2015 #13
I also refuse to take part in it BuelahWitch Nov 2015 #28
Good post. I don't ignore, though very often want to, Hortensis Nov 2015 #40
It's mostly evangelical atheists trying to prove how smart they are by insulting others. Maedhros Nov 2015 #41
Oh, those. Yes, their extreme bigotry scares me, actually, Hortensis Nov 2015 #42
I agree and I'm an atheist also. cpwm17 Nov 2015 #50
That's not enirely true. cleanhippie Nov 2015 #54
I believe what you post. cpwm17 Nov 2015 #57
We're mostly on the same page. cleanhippie Nov 2015 #58
Well, at least you've found a way to make yourself feel superior... cleanhippie Nov 2015 #52
+1! 2naSalit Nov 2015 #59
knr Douglas Carpenter Nov 2015 #9
It's nice to see that you're still posting. cpwm17 Nov 2015 #10
Yeah. Because World War One and Two were wars that occurred due to religion. linuxman Nov 2015 #11
As long as people believe they are fighting for an invisible man in the sky, we're screwed NightWatcher Nov 2015 #12
I'm the first to realize we often rationalize many imaginary things as more tangible... LanternWaste Nov 2015 #24
Militarism, mutual defense alliances and imperialism had a lot to do with many of those wars. herding cats Nov 2015 #14
It depends on definition and motivation. Snobblevitch Nov 2015 #15
WWI and WWII are violence by mostly Christians cpwm17 Nov 2015 #18
"WWII are violence by mostly Christian" No.. EX500rider Nov 2015 #29
Germany is a Christian nation, the same with Italy. cpwm17 Nov 2015 #31
And yet more Shendao Chinese were killed by Shinto Japanese EX500rider Nov 2015 #32
In the 20th Century there was a lot of killing by a lot of different groups. cpwm17 Nov 2015 #43
This is a good point. closeupready Nov 2015 #37
I always thought it was a mistake to go back into Iraq. Snobblevitch Nov 2015 #38
You're not scaring anyone with this. You must not be a republican. pampango Nov 2015 #16
This is so fucking deceitful-- and when it's begun with an accusation of bigotry, it's particularly Marr Nov 2015 #17
Nobody that supports violence against Muslims, Netanyahu and his aggressive wars, cpwm17 Nov 2015 #19
I watch Real Time almost every week maxsolomon Nov 2015 #26
I haven't had access to cable in years. cpwm17 Nov 2015 #30
when was this? maxsolomon Nov 2015 #39
I haven't seen his show in the last eight years or so . cpwm17 Nov 2015 #48
because she's left the faith she doesn't get to claim it culturally? maxsolomon Nov 2015 #60
Maher is an Islamophobic bigot. closeupready Nov 2015 #20
The fact is that gays, women... Marr Nov 2015 #23
Bigotry is about being unfair to religious minorities, not just sexual minorities. closeupready Nov 2015 #33
Well stated. nt el_bryanto Nov 2015 #34
Thanks. closeupready Nov 2015 #35
And where would your evidence be leftynyc Nov 2015 #53
How Iran Solved Its Gay Marriage Problem snooper2 Nov 2015 #62
... closeupready Nov 2015 #63
You are spot on. katsy Nov 2015 #36
Hear, hear! smirkymonkey Nov 2015 #56
Exactly. cleanhippie Nov 2015 #55
The problem comes from toppling secular regimes and supporting fundamentalist regimes and rebels. CJCRANE Nov 2015 #21
I would venture to suggest that a gay couple holding hands would be safer in Dublin Nye Bevan Nov 2015 #44
I would venture to suggest that it's safer to doubt god in Dublin Yorktown Nov 2015 #45
Probably most of those activities are also safer in Vatican City Nye Bevan Nov 2015 #46
I don't care for Christianity, but they don't chop hands Yorktown Nov 2015 #47
Currently, Islam inspires the most terrorism... MellowDem Nov 2015 #51
Good post here Go Vols Nov 2015 #64

NickB79

(19,253 posts)
1. Where does female genital mutilation fall on that metric?
Wed Nov 18, 2015, 07:04 PM
Nov 2015

Because I consider that one hell of an act of violence.

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
3. FGM is a regional practice in north and east Africa, not a Muslim practice
Wed Nov 18, 2015, 07:09 PM
Nov 2015

although some of the countries where it is practiced are Muslim.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation#Prevalence

FGM is mostly found in what political scientist Gerry Mackie describes as an "intriguingly contiguous" zone in Africa – east to west from Somalia to Senegal, and north to south from Egypt to Tanzania. As of 2014, 133 million women and girls were thought to be living with FGM in the 29 countries in which it is concentrated. If the rate of decline (as of 2014) continues, this figure will increase to 196 million by 2050 because of population growth.

Egypt, Ethiopia and Nigeria had the highest number of women and girls living with FGM as of 2013: 27.2 million, 23.8 million and 19.9 million respectively. (Egypt outlawed FGM in 2007, Ethiopia in 2004 and Nigeria in 2015.) In 2014 prevalence rates for women in sub-Saharan Africa were 39 percent and for girls aged 0–14, 17 percent. For Eastern and Southern Africa the figures were 44 and 14 percent, and for West and Central Africa 31 and 17 percent.
 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
61. yeah it's just a couple million girls a year no big deal right?
Fri Nov 20, 2015, 02:50 PM
Nov 2015

WHO estimates that between 100 and 140 million girls and women worldwide have been subjected to one of the first three types of female genital mutilation. Estimates based on the most recent prevalence data indicate that 91,5 million girls and women above 9 years old in Africa are currently living with the consequences of female genital mutilation. There are an estimated 3 million girls in Africa at risk of undergoing female genital mutilation every year.


Types I, II and III female genital mutilation have been documented in 28 countries in Africa and in a few countries in Asia and the Middle East (see Annex 3). Some forms of female genital mutilation have also been reported from other countries, including among certain ethnic groups in Central and South America. Growing migration has increased the number of girls and women living outside their country of origin who have undergone female genital mutilation (Yoder et al., 2004) or who may be at risk of being subjected to the practice.

The prevalence of female genital mutilation has been estimated from large-scale, national surveys asking women aged 15–49 years if they have themselves been cut. The prevalence varies considerably, both between and within regions and countries (see map), with ethnicity as the most decisive factor.

In seven countries the national prevalence is almost universal, (more than 85%); four countries have high prevalence (60–85%); medium prevalence (30–40%) is found in seven countries, and low prevalence, ranging from 0.6% to 28.2%, is found in the remaining nine countries. However, national averages hide the often marked variation in prevalence in different parts of most countries.

The type of procedure performed also varies, mainly with ethnicity. Current estimates indicate that around 90% of female genital mutilation cases include Types I or II and cases where girls’ genitals were "nicked" but no flesh removed (Type IV), and about 10% are Type III (Yoder and Khan, 2007).


msongs

(67,420 posts)
2. a ringing endorsement: "my" religion is less murderous than "your" religion lol (not referring to
Wed Nov 18, 2015, 07:05 PM
Nov 2015

KamaAina, just a general reference)

maxsolomon

(33,345 posts)
5. We'll just have to wait to see what kind of tally they can run up, then.
Wed Nov 18, 2015, 07:29 PM
Nov 2015

Boy, Bill Maher sure is the whipping boy here today. What about Richard Dawkins, or Sam Harris? Why does Maher get all the credit?

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
7. Exactly!
Wed Nov 18, 2015, 07:34 PM
Nov 2015

It's only through a selective interpretation of history and current events that people from a Muslim background are determined to be more violent. The facts don't back that up. Bill Maher is clearly a bigot.

It is often people that support aggressive wars or support politicians that support aggressive wars by the US that make this claim.

Bill Maher has stated that Muslims are more violent and the way to deal with Muslims is with violence. That's why he likes Netanyahu, a lover of violence.

http://www.vox.com/2015/1/30/7951309/islam-violence

Predominantly, Muslim countries average 2.4 murders per annum per 100,000 people, compared to 7.5 in non-Muslim countries. The percentage of the society that is made up of Muslims is an extraordinarily good predictor of a country's murder rate. More authoritarianism in Muslim countries does not account for the difference. I have found that controlling for political regime in statistical analysis does not change the findings. More Muslims, less homicide.


In the 20th century Muslims did not lead the world in violence, not even close. At this moment in history there are some problems in parts of the Muslim world, much of it caused by outside forces, especially the US. Certainly no one in the US that supports any candidate for president that supported the aggressive war against Iraq has any standing to condemn Muslims for being violent - screw that tribal American exceptionalism crap.
 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
22. Anyone have a link to that actual study?
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 12:59 PM
Nov 2015

I'm curious what countries he used for the numbers, and how he gathered homicide statistics from places like Afghanistan and Pakistan where things like honor killings are routine and not even investigated, much less catalogued at a national level.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
49. The fact that he hasn't published his work anywhere for people to review makes me question more
Fri Nov 20, 2015, 07:49 AM
Nov 2015

In places like Afghanistan and Pakistan an honor killing wouldn't even be reported to the most local authority in many cases, and if they do know about it they won't report it higher.

I question his conclusions just based on the fact that you can't get reliable statistics from places like Pakistan, and places like Saudi Arabia and Iran are anything but open and likely are not honest about any statistic that can make them look bad too.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
8. The ongoing 'Othering' of Muslims is calculated.
Wed Nov 18, 2015, 08:44 PM
Nov 2015

It's the equivalent of the Two Minute Hate against Emmanuel Goldstein in Orwell's '1984'. The objective is to normalize hatred against Muslims so that the population doesn't question the suffering and murder inflicted on them by our military and our President.

I refuse to take part in it, and I put anyone who does on ignore.

Response to Maedhros (Reply #8)

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
41. It's mostly evangelical atheists trying to prove how smart they are by insulting others.
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 04:56 PM
Nov 2015

I am an atheist, but I have no interest in demonizing religions or people.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
42. Oh, those. Yes, their extreme bigotry scares me, actually,
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 04:59 PM
Nov 2015

even though if I were inclined to put a label on "beats me," I might myself an atheist.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
50. I agree and I'm an atheist also.
Fri Nov 20, 2015, 12:07 PM
Nov 2015

It's no huge achievement to become an atheist. I don't know why so many atheists on the internet are so full of themselves and are such selfish asses. Statistics show that American atheists are more pro peace than the average American. The internet holy-warring xenophobic atheists I presume aren't typical.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
54. That's not enirely true.
Fri Nov 20, 2015, 12:20 PM
Nov 2015
Happiness: The most secular nations in the world report the highest levels of happiness among their population.

Altruism: Secular nations such as those in Scandinavia donate the most money and supportive aid, per capita, to poorer nations. Zuckerman also reports that two studies show that, during the Holocaust, "the more secular people were, the more likely they were to rescue and help persecuted Jews."

Outlooks and Values: Zuckerman, citing numerous studies, shows that atheists and agnostics, when compared to religious people, are actually less likely to be nationalistic, racist, anti-Semitic, dogmatic, ethnocentric, and authoritarian. Secularism also correlates to higher education levels. Atheists and other secular people are also much more likely to support women's rights and gender equality, as well as gay and lesbian rights. Religious individuals are more likely to support government use of torture.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201103/misinformation-and-facts-about-secularism-and-religion

http://pitweb.pitzer.edu/academics/wp-content/uploads/sites/38/2014/12/FAC-Zuckerman-Sociology-Compass.pdf
 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
57. I believe what you post.
Fri Nov 20, 2015, 12:48 PM
Nov 2015

As I wrote: "Statistics show that American atheists are more pro peace than the average American. The internet holy-warring xenophobic atheists I presume aren't typical."

A large percentage of proponents of actual peace are Atheists. I don't mean those phony xenophobic war-is-peace atheists, but actual supporters of peace.

It's hard to say whether living in a happy and secure area puts people in the correct state of mind, so that they are more likely to become atheists; or becoming an atheist makes you happier and more peaceful.

Certainly hardships and oppression causes people to become insecure and more conservative and reactionary. Our terrible foreign policy and wars that have devistated the Middle East have drastically changed their culture.

 

linuxman

(2,337 posts)
11. Yeah. Because World War One and Two were wars that occurred due to religion.
Wed Nov 18, 2015, 11:43 PM
Nov 2015

Even the Iran/Iraq war of the 80's wasn't religious. Yes, each side was mostly Shia or Sunni, but that wasn't the reason for the war.

The entire premise of the article is abject shit.

NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
12. As long as people believe they are fighting for an invisible man in the sky, we're screwed
Wed Nov 18, 2015, 11:53 PM
Nov 2015

And as a subset of that, as long as we believe there is an invisible man in the sky, we're just as doomed as a species.

I understand religion in times of darkness and ignorance, but when we should know better it is unforgivable.

The sun doesn't come back because of feasts thrown on the shortest day of the year. We know about orbits and ellipses and whatnot. We've got to stop wallowing in fables and parables and archaic ceremonies when we know why things happened. Believing in Santa Clause is cute until age 7 or 8, after that it's just sad, and for an adult to believe is a mental illness.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
24. I'm the first to realize we often rationalize many imaginary things as more tangible...
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 01:21 PM
Nov 2015

"As long as people believe they are fighting for an invisible borders around an imaginary country..."

Six of one, half a dozen of the other... though I'm the first to realize we often rationalize many imaginary things as more tangible abd mature of thought than other imaginary things.

herding cats

(19,565 posts)
14. Militarism, mutual defense alliances and imperialism had a lot to do with many of those wars.
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 03:19 AM
Nov 2015

Last edited Thu Nov 19, 2015, 04:03 AM - Edit history (1)

I'm not making excuses for the bad guys in those wars, I'm just stating facts. To imply that they were religious wars is at best deflection, and at worst total bullshit.

I will say WWI was 100 years ago. WWII was 70 years ago. All the military actions he mentions in an attempt to balance out what people like ISIL/Daesh and Boko Haram are doing were ages ago, and waged for reasons other than forcing a person to assume your religion, or be tortured, raped (if you're female) and threatened with death if you refuse.

I am one of the last people to condemn all people of the Muslim faith under an umbrella of what their extremist are doing in the name of their god, but I don't think this type of excuse is doing anyone any real favors.

I believe that all religions are prone to extremist, and they can do vile things as history shows. Problem is, that's not what he's really trying to say here. Which leads me to disagree with him on his premise. He's blaming people like myself (secular) for wars waged tens of decades before my birth, and trying to equate them to what the extremist in ISIL/Boko Haram are doing today. 100/70/60 years later. When they weren't waged for the same reason, and even if several were wrong, they weren't the same and they predate most of us now by multiple decades.

He's not helping, he's essentially making excuses for things which shouldn't be apologized for. Condemn those who commit atrocities, and save your defense for those who don't. Those of all of us who don't commit atrocities are still in the vast majority globally. That's what we need to be focusing on.

Snobblevitch

(1,958 posts)
15. It depends on definition and motivation.
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 03:21 AM
Nov 2015

Usimg WWI and WWII as an example of Christian violence is ridiculous. Thise ears were not motivated by Christianity. What happened recently in France was motivated by Islam.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
18. WWI and WWII are violence by mostly Christians
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 12:01 PM
Nov 2015

The US has been in a long term holy war against Muslims, rationalized by the false premise that Muslims are more violent than other people. The facts don't back that up. They aren't more violent.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/eye-opening-graphic-map-of-muslim-countries-that-the-u-s-and-israel-have-bombed/

This “three-decade war for domination of the Middle East” becomes apparent when we consider how many Muslim countries the peace-loving United States and her “stalwart ally” Israel have bombed:...

Under Barack Obama, the U.S. is currently bombing Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and Libya. According to some reports (see here and here), we can add Iran to this ever-expanding list. [Update: An Informed Comment reader named Shannon pointed out that in fact the United States bombed Iran in 1988 during Operating Praying Mantis, an act that “cannot be justified” according to the International Court of Justice.]

Thanks to American arms and funding, our “stalwart ally” Israel has bombed every single one of its neighbors, including Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. Israel has also bombed Tunisia and Iraq (how many times can Americans and Israelis bomb this country?).

The total number of Muslim countries that America and Israel have bombed comes to fourteen: Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, Iran, Sudan, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Tunisia.


Our holy war against Muslims has devastated the region. From the looks of it, it may get much worse. Presidential candidates from both parties are very fond of wars against Muslims.

EX500rider

(10,849 posts)
29. "WWII are violence by mostly Christian" No..
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 02:10 PM
Nov 2015

....China (not Christian) lost the most dead from the attacks of (not Christian) Japan. The next most dead was in the USSR, a officially atheist country at the time.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
31. Germany is a Christian nation, the same with Italy.
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 02:17 PM
Nov 2015

WWI & WWII had a shit load of Christians murdering a shit load of Christians.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
43. In the 20th Century there was a lot of killing by a lot of different groups.
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 05:39 PM
Nov 2015

Muslims didn't come close to standing out as more brutal than other groups:

If we're going to be pointing fingers of blame for the savageness of the Century -- and you know you want to -- raw numbers are probably not enough. There have been plenty of episodes of concentrated brutality that don't show up on the list above simply because the affected population is so small. Meanwhile, a major reason that Russia and China stand so prominently at the top of the list is that they have so many potential victims to begin with. Therefore, I've taken all the episodes of mass killing of the 20th Century and divided them by the population of the country that suffered the losses.

The 25 highest percentages of national populations killed during periods of mass brutality (20th Century):



If you look carefully at the chart with the intention of determining which race, religion or ideology has been the most brutal, you'll see a pattern emerge. It's quite a startling pattern, so I'd rather you find it by yourself. Go back and take a second look. I'll meet you at the next paragraph after I explain that, honestly, I did not manipulate the data. I simply took the most likely death toll (military and civilian) among the natives of each country (such as all the South Vietnamese -- ARVN soldiers, civilians and Viet Cong -- who were killed in the Vietnam War), and divided it by the population of that country (prewar). I didn't take, say, only the military dead, or only the victims of genocide. I didn't arbitrarily decide to split one horror into two in order to make each seem smaller (the only borderline case is that I calculated the Russians dead from WW2 and Stalin separately. A judgement call.), or eliminate countries of a certain size. No, I had no predetermined point to prove. I did the math and let the chips fall where they would. (Here are the raw numbers if you want to check behind me.)

That's why I was so startled to discover that there is absolutely no pattern to the chart. If I had simply picked 25 countries out of a hat, I could not have gotten a more diverse spread than we've got here. We've got rich countries and poor countries; industrial and agrarian; big and small. We've got people of all colors -- white, black, yellow and brown -- widely represented among both the slaughterers and the slaughterees. We've got Christians, Moslems, Buddhists and Atheists all butchering one another in the name of their various gods or lack thereof. Among the perpetrators, we've got political leanings of the left, right and middle; some are monarchies; some are dictatorships and some are even democracies. We've got innocent victims invaded by big, bad neighbors, and we've got plenty of countries who brought it on themselves, sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind. Go on -- take a third look. Find any type of country that is not represented among the agents of a major blooding, and probably the only reason for that is that there aren't that many countries in that category to begin with (There are no Hindu or Jewish countries on the chart, but then, there's only one of each on the whole planet, and they're both waiting in the wings among the next 25.).

In a way, it's rather disheartening to realize that we can't smugly blame the brutality of the century on the Communists, or the imperialists, or the Moslem fundamentalists, or the godless. Every major category of human has done it's share to boost the body count, so replacing, say, Moslem rulers with Christian rulers, or white rulers with black rulers, is not going to change it at all.

Snobblevitch

(1,958 posts)
38. I always thought it was a mistake to go back into Iraq.
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 04:19 PM
Nov 2015

At first I thought eradicating al-Qaeda would be a good thing for the people of Afghanistan. Now I realize that we should just stay the hell out of conflicts in the middle east. I really wish to get in a pissing contest with you, but I have not seen to many Christian suicide bombers in the U.S.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
16. You're not scaring anyone with this. You must not be a republican.
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 10:36 AM
Nov 2015

Without appealing to fear, how can you hope to get elected?

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
17. This is so fucking deceitful-- and when it's begun with an accusation of bigotry, it's particularly
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 11:54 AM
Nov 2015

galling.

I've never heard Maher argue that crime stats are higher in Muslim countries, and I've certainly never heard him defend Christianity as being harmless. What he, and other people with a regard for consistency argue is that Islam today is a much more oppressive force in it's native lands than other religions are elsewhere. Gays, women, intellectuals, atheists... everyone that liberals claim to stand for in the west, they utterly abandon in the Middle East, because they're afraid some perennially-offended nitwit is going to call them a bigot.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
19. Nobody that supports violence against Muslims, Netanyahu and his aggressive wars,
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 12:45 PM
Nov 2015

and ethnic cleansing against Palestinians has any standing to condemn Muslims. Bill Maher is a holy warrior. That bigot has nothing worthwhile to say on the subject.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
30. I haven't had access to cable in years.
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 02:12 PM
Nov 2015

I used to watch his shows. He's famous for his support of Netanyahu and Israel and its wars.

I watched Bill Maher explicitly claim that Muslims are inherently more violent than other people, so he said that the way to deal with Muslims is with violence – clearly showing who is the violent one in this picture. That might have been the last time I watched his show. That might have been the last straw. I really hated his guts after that.

He brought on to his show a book by Benny Morris, an Israeli historian and supporter of the ethnic cleansing campaign against the Palestinians at Israel's birth. Benny Morris documented the Zionists' methods to expel the Palestinians and he documented that the Zionists were the aggressors. Bill Maher acknowledged that the Palestinians weren't the aggressors but he agreed with Benny Morris that the ethnic cleansing was a good thing.

maxsolomon

(33,345 posts)
39. when was this?
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 04:22 PM
Nov 2015

like 10 years +? because I never saw that. I get very fed up with the panel occasionally, mainly because there's never a substantive discussion if there's a Dem pol or a RW pundit on. too shouty. and Bill's not the deepest thinker, but he's on OUR team. he gave Obama a million $ in '12.

Maher's very explicit in calling out the SUPPORT for terror among muslims, which is borne out by surveys, and the cruelty of passages in the Koran and Hadiths that explicitly sanction violence. at least lately.

he has a fair number of muslims on the show - like Ayaan Hirsi Ali - and yes, most of them don't have nice things to say about Islam and its misogyny. he doesn't see many ways to deal with Jihadis except through violence, and he's not alone. most every other country's leaders see it as a legitimate tool.

I have lately seen him talk against our Israel policy passionately and heatedly, so IDK where the Netanyahu accusation is coming from.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
48. I haven't seen his show in the last eight years or so .
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 10:26 PM
Nov 2015

Ayaan Hirsi Ali isn't a Muslim now. She's a neoconservative atheist that works for the American Enterprise Institute. That's why the "new atheists" like her. They support her pro-war stance against Muslims.

She's also a fraud. Her past isn't what she claims, including her given name, which is Ayaan Hirsi Megan.

https://reason.com/archives/2007/10/10/the-trouble-is-the-west/1

Hirsi Ali: Only if Islam is defeated. Because right now, the political side of Islam, the power-hungry expansionist side of Islam, has become superior to the Sufis and the Ismailis and the peace-seeking Muslims.

Reason: Don’t you mean defeating radical Islam?

Hirsi Ali: No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.

Reason: We have to crush the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims under our boot? In concrete terms, what does that mean, “defeat Islam”?

Hirsi Ali: I think that we are at war with Islam. And there’s no middle ground in wars. Islam can be defeated in many ways. For starters, you stop the spread of the ideology itself; at present, there are native Westerners converting to Islam, and they’re the most fanatical sometimes. There is infiltration of Islam in the schools and universities of the West. You stop that. You stop the symbol burning and the effigy burning, and you look them in the eye and flex your muscles and you say, “This is a warning. We won’t accept this anymore.” There comes a moment when you crush your enemy.

Reason: Militarily?

Hirsi Ali: In all forms, and if you don’t do that, then you have to live with the consequence of being crushed.

maxsolomon

(33,345 posts)
60. because she's left the faith she doesn't get to claim it culturally?
Fri Nov 20, 2015, 02:28 PM
Nov 2015

can she at least be Sudanese?

Asra Nomani was on last week - she's no AEI employee. At the end of their conversation, Maher said "I guarantee on Monday, you'll be called "Islamophobe" and I'll be "Bigot".

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
23. The fact is that gays, women...
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 01:17 PM
Nov 2015

...all the people already outlined, are aggressively oppressed in the Muslim world, in ways that simply do not happen in the west. They're oppressed specifically and directly on the guidance of scripture.

To deny that and pretend that these groups are just fine and dandy is like denying white privilege, or defending people like Kim Davis-- only several times worse. Gays aren't just denied marriage in the Muslim world, they're fucking executed. You want to defend that or offer one of these 'yeah, buts...', that's your prerogative.

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
33. Bigotry is about being unfair to religious minorities, not just sexual minorities.
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 02:55 PM
Nov 2015

Particularly to a white person like Maher, having successfully exploited the Western commercial establishment (for personal gain) better than almost anyone. And certainly, as a member of the 1%.

Further, you can pretend Maher's whiteness and his family's religious background don't matter in explaining his hatefulness towards a minority group which is mostly non-white, and which is a minority group of which most arabs count themselves as members; it's a free country, and you can espouse your beliefs as you wish. Democracy is an ugly business.

And as you might know from my past posts on this board, I am gay, so there's that.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
53. And where would your evidence be
Fri Nov 20, 2015, 12:16 PM
Nov 2015

that Islamic countries are not bigoted towards religious minorities? Christianity is bashed regularly on DU in very hateful ways but bring up what Islam is about and you're a bigot, an Islamophobe, a hater. The difference is there for anyone who cares to look.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
62. How Iran Solved Its Gay Marriage Problem
Fri Nov 20, 2015, 02:56 PM
Nov 2015

Recommend read the whole thing...


Here are some snips-


"Furthermore, while Iran has very liberal laws with regards to transgender individuals, and in fact the government will help pay for such surgeries, these policies are actually used as another tool to destroy and persecute gays and lesbians in Iran. That’s because Iranian homosexuals are actually told and encouraged by religious clerics, and even their own families, that they must undergo sexual reassignment surgery for their own benefit because the reason they are attracted to members of the same sex is that the true gender of their soul is trapped in the wrong body. Many of these innocent gay men and women are forced to make these life changing decisions at relatively young ages. They then must live with the pain and emotional scars and confusion of life-altering surgery that had been brutally forced upon them.

If this is shocking and disconcerting, it should be. Yet do we ever hear about these human rights violations in the news or from our politicians or even President Obama? Do any of the gay lobby groups, or any other groups who claim to be so focused on human rights violations, bring up these injustices in a significant way that the average citizen of the United States could at least be aware that this is happening and voice their outrage as such stone-age barbarism?

Maybe it’s the fear that publicly speaking out about this topic could be construed as Islamophobic and is thus best swept under the rug. Or maybe it is the soft bigotry of low expectations that subconsciously accepts the idea that individual rights, freedoms, and the need for total equality is important for Americans but it really is not as important for Iranians.

There is actually a very good way of testing the true feelings and intentions of anyone who claims to care deeply about defending the rights and freedoms of a particular group or demographic. That test involves their attitude towards that group not just in the US but in the rest of the world."

http://observer.com/2015/05/how-iran-solved-its-gay-marriage-problem/

katsy

(4,246 posts)
36. You are spot on.
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 03:04 PM
Nov 2015

The level of misogyny, anti-science, executions of gays and atheists is astounding. Shooting a young girl in the face for advocating education for all young girls... Charming.

That democrats can defend their actions astounds me. To throw atheists under the bus for their open disdain of Islam boggles my mind.

Of course Islam is the most vile of modern religions IMO. Christianity is mostly under leash by laws and it's more barbaric versions not practiced. There are fundie clerics calling for the extermination of gays and yes, these types of xtian practices are as bad as the Islamic nutters. They preach similar messages. Death to "others". That message is shit coming from xtians, Koran, Buddhists or atheists. The fucking sneakiness of daesh & their AlQ counterparts goes one step further by using innocents to hide behind. This type of warfare is odious. Bombing concert halls, bombing planes, stealing little girls or shooting them in the face and hiding behind non-combatants is vile.

I'm an atheist and stand with bill maher against these ideologues.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
56. Hear, hear!
Fri Nov 20, 2015, 12:32 PM
Nov 2015

I have a feeling that one of these days, many of these people are going to eat their words.

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
21. The problem comes from toppling secular regimes and supporting fundamentalist regimes and rebels.
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 12:50 PM
Nov 2015

The west's rhetoric of spreading "liberal democracy" doesn't match our actions and their results.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
45. I would venture to suggest that it's safer to doubt god in Dublin
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 07:05 PM
Nov 2015

than in Baghdad?

Or to have premarital sex?
Or to date without fear of being lashed (physically)?
Or to have the right to move freely as a woman?

The OP presents one item as if it was all the bigger picture.
Islamic societies are free and fair to all? Women? Gays? Unbelievers? Jews?

And btw, assuming the crime rates are the same in muslim or non muslim countries, the consequences are different: chopped hands, anyone?

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
51. Currently, Islam inspires the most terrorism...
Fri Nov 20, 2015, 12:13 PM
Nov 2015

based violence. Of all the violence done in the name of religion in the present day, Islam holds the lead.

I wonder why that makes Maher a bigot?

Especially as Islam is an explicitly bigoted religion in its texts and dogmas.

Christianity has been neutered by secularism and still inspires terrible shit thanks to also being an explicitly bigoted belief system.

What's the point of trying to equivocate hateful, bigoted belief systems on DU?

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»No, Muslims Are Not More ...