Why can't we at DU mourn one thing at a time?

[kiva]

Why can't we just be outraged and sad and furious and appalled that three people were killed because a man hated women? Isn't it enough of a discussion for us to have, to talk about the fact that some men - in every country, locality, and city - hate women, want to control women, and resent the fact that women make choices based on what is best for them instead of what the man wants?

Why do some posters want to turn this into a diatribe about their own concern - was he a fundy Christian? Why was the white killer not shot by cops like black teenagers have been? Why is the media talking about the cop and not the civilian victims? Why isn't the media calling him a terrorist? Is he a conservative who got his ideas from the hate radio?

One of our favorite sayings here, when we comment on frivolous topics, is that we can multitask. I'm suggesting that maybe, sometimes, we stop trying to multitask and just focus on the obvious issue at hand - if, indeed, the killer's target was Planned Parenthood (which seems pretty clear) can we talk about this hostility toward women?

Here's one example, a young man who agrees with the shooter:

https://twitter.com/SlyFlyAndHigh

If she aborts your baby you gotta kidnap her after she leaves the clinic and then proceed to aborting her future. See how her parents feel.

[Rex]

1. Because a lot of those issues are tied together. If you pull one string they all come unwound.

Fundies hate women, for some reason they think their religious book(s) gives them dominion over females. Stupidest shit I've ever heard of, but still some see it as fact and based on history. So when a women stands up for herself and wants the world to know she is a human being, it offends these men to their core. Partially because they already hated the idea of women as equals and partially because they believe their religious book(s) tells them to.

[onecaliberal]

2. ^^^THAT^^^

[malaise]

4. Precisely

Women as inferior beings is central to most religions - it's about control.

[marym625]

5. I just said pretty much the same thing

Hadn't seen your post yet

[kiva]

7. See, I just don't believe that if religion didn't exist,

that hatred of women would disappear. I think that many religions sanction the control of women, but they only confirm a desire that already exists.

I don't believe that all or even most men feel this way, but I do believe that the anger over the inability to make women do what they want them to do is present in all cultures, all age groups.

[Rex]

11. I can understand that, my point is more along the lines of recorded history.

Wherever there is a fundamental belief in owning humans as property, we can see some kind of ritualistic worship involved in their thinking process. Not always, but there is a pattern throughout history that shows this.

You could be very well right, but how will we ever know? I have a feeling religion is here to stay and many use it to subvert the rights of others. Almost always women and minoritiy groups.

It doesn't have to be this way, but has been this way for thousands of years. Just look how fast Catholisim ousted female priests in the beginning of the religion. Made sure they would never have any kind of power.

A female pope? Ever? A female calphate? Ever? A female rabbi? Okay in recorded history 2 female rabbis...done in secret.

There is a pattern.

[Chemisse]

15. I agree.

Those men who want to control women in order to make themselves feel big and important, would find a way to justify it if there were no religions.

It's inexplicable to me. I know very few men who have this need to control the woman in their life. It's hard to fathom whole communities of them.

[kiva]

16. Exactly.

In real life I don't know these men, for which I am very grateful, but I recognize that they exist and want them to be identified as what they are - murderous bastards who hate women - rather than change the topic from gender to race or gun control or religion.

[marym625]

3. That's some seriously messed up stuff

While I feel your frustration, I think it's all part of the same discussion. The same things are leading to this and msm is a great deal of the problem.

The agenda:
Control women
Control minorities
Control the poor
Make the middle class poor
Christian is Good. Muslim is bad. Christian is Good. Christian is Good. Muslim is bad.
Control.

To allow this not to be called what it is, domestic terrorism brought forth by "Christian" fanaticism, part of the plan to control the 99%, which has women, black people, immigrants, Muslims and the poor at the top of the agenda, mitigates the real problem behind the hate.

This absolutely sucks and is a culmination of the establishment's attack on women.

And every point is valid. Imho

[malaise]

6. Excellent post

[marym625]

10. Thank you, malaise.

That means a lot coming from you

[Hatchling]

9. + a lot! nt

[kiva]

12. No, it isn't.

I respect that these are all important issues but it minimizes the issue of violence toward women by making it just a piece of this landscape of social ills.

Some minority men also want to control their women; so do poor and middle-class men as well as rich men. Some Muslim men want that control, as do some Christian and likely men of every other religion. I have no desire to defend Muslim and immigrant and other men who sanction the control or and violence toward women by saying they are all victims of the establishment.

[marym625]

13. neither do I

But if you can't see the connection, well, I just won't say any more

[Chemisse]

17. I see it as a primitive human tendency.

Most humans have good control over these ancient notions of male and female roles, and (most of) our social norms dictate mutual respect.

But some men, bolstered by religious doctrine and a subculture that permits it, not only embrace their desire to control women, but come to believe it is their god-given right. It's hard for me to understand how they reach a murderous rage, but clearly they do. We see this time and again when a woman leaves a controlling boyfriend. I suspect that for some men, the woman in their life is the ONLY thing that they can control. Why that has extended to other men's wives and girlfriends who seek abortions is hard to fathom, unless they are just trying to protect the culture of control. There is no way that it is because these brutes have tender feelings toward little babies!

The 1% may or may not use this to control the masses. Certainly they stoke the embers of other primitive tendencies, like our suspicion of people who are different from us (racism, anti-immigrant sentiment) and our drive to survive at the expense of others (disdain toward the poor, support for capitalism, etc).

[Hatchling]

8. We really can't anymore.

It's all interwoven now.

[cwydro]

14. Good post kiva.

[kiva]

18. Thank you, cwydro. n/t

[madinmaryland]

19. It's a discussion board? What do want us to do. Walk all in lock and step like the pukes...

Fuck that, we all have opinions which varies from DUer to DUer.