Logic failure being promoted as wisdom re: wages on Facebook right now:

[Tommy_Carcetti]

I've seen two of my FB friends share this photo from a "D.J. Abstrack" as if it actually has a logical point:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1839220392971068&set=a.1390247224535056.1073741829.100006493742566&type=3

In case you can't get it, it shows a picture of an automated order machine at a McDonald's counter with the caption:

"Congrats to all the McDonalds employees who demanded $15 an hour. Your replacements are arriving that'll make sure my order is right every time."


Lest I be one to challenge the wisdom of someone named "D.J. Abstrack", but if McDonald's does plan on rolling out automated order machines, why exactly would they go ahead with it if wages are $15 an hour but hold back on it if wages are $8 an hour?

Sure, automation and its effects on jobs is an issue that will have to be dealt with. But I don't see how the minimum wage is an issue at all? If a company's going to automate, they're going to automate, regardless of the amount of minimum wages.

[Facility Inspector]

1. why the fuck does mcdeath always forget my extra hash brown?!?!?!?

it happens like every time.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

3. Automated fast food. What could go wrong?

[Facility Inspector]

4. I like munny

Listen Joe, I supersize with you . . .

[Donald Ian Rankin]

2. No, that doesn't follow.

A company will only automate if it saves them money.

I have no idea how much the machines cost. But there will certainly be a price range where humans working for $8 are more cost-efficient than machines, which in turn are more cost efficient than humans working for $15.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

6. Only if you assume that the cost to operate and maintain the machines comes to an amount....

...that is total to a sum greater than labor costs at $8 an hour but less than labor costs at $15 an hour. And we're putting the cart before the horse if we say that it lands softly in that magical zone.

Funny though, because the individual who posted this picture and made this comment lives in Florida just like me, and we certainly don't have a $15 an hour minimum wage.

I don't think the minimum wage is what's driving this.

[jamzrockz]

5. Not quite sure if you are being serious

But the idea is that if you raise the minimum wage too high to the point where automation becomes cheaper than human workers, companies would replace their current workers with machines. This is just common sense for companies whose goal is to make profits

why exactly would they go ahead with it if wages are $15 an hour but hold back on it if wages are $8 an hour?

First of all, wages are not $15 yet, but this could be McDonald's preparing for the time when the minimum wage is $15. Think of it like a trial balloon, if it goes well in the stores that it is being tried on now, they will evaluate it and make correction. Then when the minimum wage goes to $15, they can take the machines live to all their stores.

Yes, the threat from automation is real. There was a thread from last month that talked about how virtually every single job in the US could possible be replaced by machines. It focused mainly on self driving cars and trucking job. I think it is inevitable that burger jobs will be replaced with machines but unrealistic increases in the minimum wage only speeds up the process.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

8. Do you have evidence though that supports those numbers?

I.e., that the cost to operate with automated service machines exceeds the current minimum wage levels but would fall below a $15 minimum wage level?

I'm not being hypothetical or sarcastic. If you have that evidence, I'd be happy to reconsider.

[jamzrockz]

13. No, I don't know their internal numbers

But one thing I know for sure is that the faster you increase the minimum wage, the faster you close the cost gap between the human workers and machines workers. This speeding up the day human workers are replaced. Like I said before, I think technological advancements is going to close the gap regardless of whether we raise the minimum wage or not.

Just like the automobiles replaced the horse drawn carriage, robots are going to replace human fast food workers and then it would come for our jobs . Good thing I work in healthcare, my job will be among the last to be replaced.

Can't find the thread but I think this is the video the article linked to. Watch and weep

[Tommy_Carcetti]

14. Unless the cost to automate is already less than the current wage levels.

In that instance, it's just a matter of perfecting technology to the point of implementing these systems nationwide. Because nobody wants to be stuck with machines that are inefficient and counterproductive to business, even if they are cheaper to operate than a human counterpart.

But without any figures pro or con, any talk that it's minimum wage that's driving automation is merely speculative. And so far, it's not as though McDonald's has come out and said that it's pushing automation because of the minimum wage debate.

[jamzrockz]

16. I don't need McDonalds

to come out and say it. I don't think its hard to believe that a company like McDonald's is not doing any forward thinking about their business. Minimum wage workers are the life blood of the company and the federal govt is aggressively pushing to double that rate. Even republican states are raising their minimum wage, I think its safe to say that they see the writing on the wall and are reacting to it.

But regardless of their stated reason, raising the minimum wage on everybody gives companies like McDonald's an upper hand in the industry. If this new machines costs even a dollar or two lower than a human worker to operate, they are going to destroy the competition.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

17. Again, though, without any proof....

...that the profits from automation would exist in a world with $15 wages but not $8 wages, claiming that the current debate on minimum wages is what's driving automation is just aimless speculation.

Perhaps you are misinterpreting me here, but I'm not denying automation is coming to the service world (in fact it is creeping as we speak) and the effects are going to be significant. I'm just saying that "D.J. Abstrack" coming out and saying "Hur de hur de hur, they want $15 an hour and now McDonald's is going to replace them with machines" is false logic, and that the cause and effect is being misapplied here.

[RadiationTherapy]

7. Robots are the inevitable consequence of capitalism as well as the inevitable demise of capitalism.

Automation means "60%" or more unemployment: Capitalism will fail in the face of it.

or

Automation means a global living stipend as a result of hyper-efficiency: Capitalism will fail in the face of it.

[closeupready]

9. If there's one thing we know about McDonald's, it's that they will lay you off in a heartbeat

if they can do it without any downside. Bean counters rule, seems to me.

So this meme rings very hollow. Even if it were true, it's merely a numbers game; feeling have absolutely ZERO to do with it, and by that I mean, they aren't vindictive about their workers demanding a living wage; they are simply taking advantage of improvements in technology.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

10. Exactly.

I'm not denying that automation is going to pose a threat to people with jobs in the service industry. That's undoubtedly a very real issue to be grappled.

What I'm saying is that the current debate over minimum wage levels has very little do with automation issues.

But who am I to argue with the likes of "D.J. Abstrack"?

[closeupready]

12. True. D.J. Abstrack won the Nobel Prize, if I'm not mistaken, and

an Oscar, the Pulitzer, and has a Ph.D. in surf science from Pepperdine. So you and I really can't argue against his wisdom. (And what's his DU name, I'm wondering...)

[BlueJazz]

11. What closeupready said.

[valerief]

15. McDonald's foodstuff kills people. nt

[gratuitous]

18. So, when does labor get saved?

We've been automating, automating, automating for about 70 years now. All these "labor-saving" gadgets were supposed to unshackle the worker from the mindless, repetitive chores and do more creative things on the job. This was supposed to shorten the work week. People could make a decent living and have ample free time to do as they pleased.

Instead, over the last 35 years, worker productivity has gone steadily up, hours have gone up, and yet wages have remained stagnant, adjusted for inflation. Where has all the additional wealth created by labor gone, since it's not making its way into the pockets of the working class?

Puzzling. That's all that can be said.