We are juggling live grenades in the Mideast

[arendt]

and that is with the "sane" party in the WH.

I found these titles in DU Latest Threads since last midnight:

Four Syrian Soldiers Killed in US-Led Coalition Airstrike
Khamenei advisor: Assad’s fate a ‘red line’ for Iran
Iraq gives Turkish forces 48 hours to leave country
Yemen's Aden governor killed in IS blast
Turkey seizes four Russian ship in Black Sea
Russian ships flaunting missiles during Bosporus Strait passing is provocation: FM Cavusoglu (Turkey)
Russia equips bombers over Syria with air-to-air missiles for self-defense
After Paris Attacks, Proposed French Law Would Block Tor and Forbid Free Wi-Fi
France far-right leader Le Pen welcomes 'magnificent result' in poll
Extremist Group the CIA is Paying to Kill Innocent Civilians in Afghanistan
Syria air strikes: Britain is only dipping a toe in this war on Isis
West stands alone in anti-Isis alliance as regional partners slip away
Poland Considers Asking for Access to NATO Nuclear Weapons

The ME is a bar room brawl; and the first time someone smashes a chair over our heads, I want to be on another planet.

This looks like the same bravado-driven sleepwalk that started WW1, only this time there are nukes. Is everyone out of their mind? The ME is not a videogame. Real people are dying, and major powers are bringing major forces into this powder keg of a region.

Why doesn't someone knock some sense into Turkey? Shooting down planes on dubious excuses. Walking into Iraq's oil region with thousands of troops and tanks. Bombing our allies, the Kurds, instead of ISIS. Supporting ISIS and refusing to close the border. Seizing Russian ships on the high seas. Ergodan is a dangerous lunatic who thinks he can recreate the Ottoman Empire.

Meanwhile, the Saudis are pulverizing Yemen instead of fighting ISIS. In fact, ISIS just blew up the Saudi-backed governor of Aden. The Saudis are armed and dangerous to any Shia.

Next door, Syria just keeps bubbling away. American air strikes kill Syrian soldiers. Russian airstrikes kill Turkomen jihadis. Britain and France join in the bomb-lobbing. I missed the headline where the Israelis bombed some Hezbollah people in Syria. On the other side, the Iranians will not stand for Assad being run out of town by the Sunnis.

The only sane/de-escalating titles I saw were:

Past CIA Directors: 'We can neither kill nor surveil our way out of terror.'
Saudi must stop financing fundamentalist mosques abroad: Merkel's deputy

Even the f-ing CIA understands that more violence is counter-productive. Can someone get the warmongers on the cluephone?

Everyone not paid by the Corporate Media understands that Saudi Arabia is the main funder of ISIS and has been the main funder of lunatic Salafist terrorists since the 1980s war in Afghanistan. The Germans are way ahead of us in saying this out loud. Too bad the French seem to be busy debating their own, even more Draconian version of the USA PATRIOT act.

Based on the number of headlines, it looks like suicidal fundamentalism is in the driver's seat, both in the ME and the West.

Tomorrow, I'm calling my Congress critters, because we have to de-escalate this mess before it blows up and takes the world with it. I can only appeal to the self-preservation instinct of the critters, since my government was long ago sold to the highest bidder.

--------

NOTE: this is my first lengthy post here in quite some time. I just wanted to move the discussion off the utterly irrelevant squabbling about primaries that won't happen for months. We could all be nuclear toast by then.

I'm sure someone will show up to call me a bedwetter. Fine. I'd rather be a live bedwetter than a nuclear cinder.

[Historic NY]

1. I have a feeling that Turkey is going to suffer first...

NATO country working against the rest....of the organization. With the intelligence coming out I can see a violent initiated coup there, while the rest of NATO sits on the sidelines. They are playing both sides against the middle.

[politicman]

6. How can people only understand black and white and not attempt to understand the grey areas as well

Turkey are looking out for their own interests the way that Iran has been looking after their own interests by backing Assad from the start of the civil war, the way that Russia has been backing Assad as well, the way that America has been interfering in that region for decades, the way that every country in the region and the world has been looking out for their own interests.

Turkey seems to be the latest scapegoat on these forums and everywhere else, but god forbid that anyone use their brains for a second and realise that ISIS hold all the territory they do because the Sunni's in those areas either support them or wont fight against them just to allow the Shiites/Alawi's and other governments to rule over them again and treat them the way that the puppet Iraqi government did after being installed by the U.S.


The world is not as simple as many on here want to believe, those that think that if Turkey or Saudi governments simply did what everyone else wants them to do then ISIS would become weaker and soon collapse.

Just look back at the Iraqi resistance during the U.S occupation for evidence of this.

The Iraqi resistance was fighting the mighty U.S army which had unlimited funding and an overwhelming military advantage but the Iraqi resistance was never defeated or even weakened.

[Aerows]

10. What I see is that by us staying out of the ground fight

we are letting the whole bunch of them weaken themselves, now including Russia. Russia has totally overextended themselves by capturing territory that they cannot hold, and now they are in Syria, too. Russia doesn't have nearly the budget that the US has to attempt to wage an extended conflict - which is exactly what they have just waded into.

President Obama has got to be given massive credit for playing the long game - I realize that there is a meltdown in these countries due to what Bush stirred up, but at least our President had the sense not to make it any worse. By staying out of it, it gives those that wish to fight among themselves the opportunity to just go ahead and do it without wasting American lives on a conflict that isn't ours and that we can't win.

[flamingdem]

2. Who does Poland want to nuke?

Gawd the news just keeps getting better..

[Aerows]

7. I read that, too

There is a lot of intel floating around out there that Russia's nuclear early warning system is messed up - i.e. they can't tell when they are getting fired at. There are more than one or two folks that would like to put pressure on Russia for any number of reasons.

I absolutely do not trust Russia. I also absolutely do not trust Turkey, either.

It's a freaking morass with the two of them being actors in Syria.

[Jim Beard]

3. Every American should read your thread before they scream more troops.

Its a damn complicated mess.

[Aerows]

8. I couldn't agree more

The fact that we haven't waded right the hell in is one of the things I absolutely applaud President Obama for. He has had the wisdom to let them all weaken themselves without us getting our own troops too involved.

They need to deal with this mess themselves, and frankly, Russia getting bogged down in Syria is a positive result, in my mind. Putin has over-extended himself. Crimea hasn't had electricity for 2 weeks, and doesn't look to be having it any time soon since Ukraine cut them off (and even Sevastopol isn't fairing very well!).

The longer Russia stays in Syria, the more Putin drains resources, those that have been encroached upon like Georgia and Ukraine will decide for themselves what they want to do about it. Ukraine has pretty clearly determined that they aren't going to support the Crimean Peninsula with electricity if they want to be part of Russia attempting to take over their country.

[Tsiyu]

4. K & R

American are asleep.

At their peril.

[Aerows]

5. Saudi Arabia

Is stirring this pot, too - and frankly, I think they are the ones that are whipping the froth the hardest.

Until we drop them as "allies" and see them for who they really are, it is impossible for us to address the real problems.

[nationalize the fed]

9. Meet the best new Democrat in Congress

She shares your concern

U.S. Congresswoman: CIA Must Stop Illegal, Counterproductive War to Overthrow Assad

She questioned the NeoCon Defense Secretary last week

More videos https://www.youtube.com/user/tulsipress
More info https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsi_Gabbard
Website: https://www.votetulsi.com/

[snot]

11. What would we lose if we just walked out and let the ME blow itself up –

I mean, seriously, even our fearless leaders have never spoken more than nebulously about US "interests" there – which seem mainly to be the interests of Halliburton & co.

Sorry if I'm being obtuse, but. It kinda seems like our actions there have helped Halliburton et al. but not particularly helped ME denizens, but have rather enraged them against us.

[Cayenne]

12. Assad prioritized over ISIS

The troops would be there to remove Assad and the Russians firstly, IS secondly. Our geopolitical interests apparently lie in a sunni order there.

[Cassiopeia]

13. Yet, tonight Obama asked for greater authority.

Excellent post, K&R

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. We are told "the world's a dangerous place". And, then make it more "dangerous".

[Journeyman]

15. K & R. . .

[arendt]

16. Thanks for all the comments...

but they seem to be rather blase about the risk of escalation.

I heard a lot of "Russia has entered the quagmire" comments. But, Russia is already signaling a readiness to shoot Turkish planes out of the sky. And Turkey is seizing Russian ships and creating a de facto blockade during "peacetime", in violation of the many-decades-old treaty on the Bosphorous.

If Russia can credibly demonstrate (as it already has with massive photographic evidence) that Turkey is supporting ISIS; and if Turkey gets hauled before the UN because of its troops in Iraq, then it is possible that China would politically support them in a campaign against Turkey. (Because we have been dicking with China over those man-made islands in the SCS.)

Regardless of China, the Russians feel they have their backs to the wall. From their POV, NATO continues to support Ukraine, which has recently refused to restore electricity supplies (destroyed in Ukraine by Ukrainian "terrorists&quot to Crimea. NATO asks Montenegro to join it. Poland asks NATO for nuclear guarantees. NATO member Turkey shoots down one of their planes. The fact that the hyper-conservative Russians are in Syria at all speaks to how little they can afford to give up anything more to the NATO encirclement.

Yeah, if, if, if. Never gonna happen. All that will happen is that the MIC will just get more money: US Defense contractors thrilled with financial prospects of escalated Middle East Conflicts.

That's what they said about that silly little assassination in Sarajevo. Cooler heads will prevail. Historians tell us that about 25 people were "in the loop" on the tit-for-tat escalation that started WW1. More recently, it has been opined that about 25 neocon assholes started the 2002 Iraq War. So, let me start counting: General Breedlove (massively provocative head of NATO), Ash Carter (Mr. inside the Pentagon crypto-neocon), Vladimir Putin, Ergodan, the Saudis, the Iranians, what is left of Iraq, the Kurds (both inside and outside of Turkey). Can we count to 25 yet?

Could someone please speak to the risk of escalation.