Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

bhikkhu

(10,718 posts)
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 12:41 AM Dec 2015

When I was young, long before "political correctness", I was taught to be respectful

To not hurt people's feelings if it could be avoided, to not judge people in whose shoes I hadn't walked. I was given the idea that if you understood someone it would be difficult to hate them, and if you hated someone it was probably because you didn't understand them. And that the ability to have compassion was a great strength, while resort to anger showed a great weakness.

This afternoon listening to NPR it was mentioned that Trump's campaign energizes people who are sick of political correctness. It seems to me that, in practice, this means little more than being freely disrespectful, uncaring of people's feelings, judgemental of anyone who doesn't fit a certain mold, and unapologetically hateful toward anyone who shows compassion for people who are different or less fortunate.

I am inclined to think that when "political correctness" is referred to dismissively it has nothing to do with politics and much to do with wishing that the old easy path of anger, hate, narrow self-interest, and childish meanness was somehow ok again. It is disturbing to think that so many people can think that is such a fine thing these days, but those on the right side of the problem, I would hope, should continue to set a good example and have high expectations of anyone who is in a position of representing others, or holding any post of government including teaching or public service.

The ability to respect other people is something well-learned, and one who can show respect is one who can be respected. If a person has no respect, he deserves pity; certainly not airtime, adulation and votes.

(probably preaching to the choir here, but this has been on my mind).

47 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
When I was young, long before "political correctness", I was taught to be respectful (Original Post) bhikkhu Dec 2015 OP
Before you insult someone, walk a mile in his shoes Xipe Totec Dec 2015 #1
Love it. N/T Roy Rolling Dec 2015 #20
Made me laugh out loud! :-) n/t ljm2002 Dec 2015 #37
It is a label smacked on decent manners loyalsister Dec 2015 #2
True that ashling Dec 2015 #12
so true about the brutality nt steve2470 Dec 2015 #31
Isn't that the truth? meow2u3 Dec 2015 #44
that's the impression I get also. deafskeptic Dec 2015 #26
Here's an example of extreme political correctness: Nye Bevan Dec 2015 #3
There's the baby, and there's the bathwater bhikkhu Dec 2015 #6
The vast majority of DUers are respectful and compassionate people. Nye Bevan Dec 2015 #9
Brainstorming is a red-herring, isn't bigotry, it doesn't stigmatize non-targets HereSince1628 Dec 2015 #39
I remember reading this... deathrind Dec 2015 #7
Except that doesn't seem to be what Trump and his supporters think "political correctness" is. BlueStater Dec 2015 #8
This is exactly what they want. haikugal Dec 2015 #10
The phrase "ugly people" might be offensive to attractiveness-challenged folks. Nye Bevan Dec 2015 #15
Oh hell, I thought this was a safe space! haikugal Dec 2015 #16
Real beauty is on the inside; or not. bhikkhu Dec 2015 #18
Trump and his supporters want a license to be disrespectful meow2u3 Dec 2015 #45
There are two issues with "brainstorming" Roy Rolling Dec 2015 #23
k&r... spanone Dec 2015 #4
Ditto! deathrind Dec 2015 #5
In addition to respect, PCness also demands to stifle criticism (and gallows humor) Yorktown Dec 2015 #11
I think it asks us to be better people bhikkhu Dec 2015 #22
I'll give you an example of gallows humor that would be censored in public Yorktown Dec 2015 #25
Spot on. NCLefty Dec 2015 #13
Good for you and us. rusty quoin Dec 2015 #14
I agree with you 100% passiveporcupine Dec 2015 #17
you are so right KT2000 Dec 2015 #19
Thank you for your thoughtful post. Yes, another way of putting it is pnwmom Dec 2015 #21
What a great post! calimary Dec 2015 #24
K & R SunSeeker Dec 2015 #27
People who complain about political correctness... 47of74 Dec 2015 #28
Also they tend to faint or safeinOhio Dec 2015 #29
the vast majority of times when I hear the term "politically correct" it is an Douglas Carpenter Dec 2015 #32
This ^^^^^^^ treestar Dec 2015 #33
+1000. Yes, it is a term often used by frustrated bigots. n/t Tanuki Dec 2015 #41
Agreed Sherman A1 Dec 2015 #30
Excellent post, bhikkhu. nt brer cat Dec 2015 #34
Will the Term "Master Bedroom" No Longer Exist? Nye Bevan Dec 2015 #35
Perhaps a better understanding, which might elude the majority now bhikkhu Dec 2015 #40
Authors told not to write about sausages or pigs in children's books to 'avoid offence' Nye Bevan Dec 2015 #36
A consistent reliance on Reductio ad absurdum LanternWaste Dec 2015 #38
Have you walked in their particular shoes? The2ndWheel Dec 2015 #42
Yes. And there is a fairly easy way to dismiss that common objection bhikkhu Dec 2015 #46
Animal Academics: Using the Word ‘Pet’ Insults Your Pet, er, Companion Nye Bevan Dec 2015 #43
Great post n/t Strelnikov_ Dec 2015 #47

Xipe Totec

(43,890 posts)
1. Before you insult someone, walk a mile in his shoes
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 12:45 AM
Dec 2015

Then you will be a mile away, and you will have his shoes.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
2. It is a label smacked on decent manners
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 01:21 AM
Dec 2015

and respect for others. It's a way of saying "I have a natural right to be as crude, obnoxious, hateful as possible and no one has standing to criticize me because I'm an American.

ashling

(25,771 posts)
12. True that
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 02:04 AM
Dec 2015


It is related (first cousin I think ... or maybe it's first cussin') to the statement, "I'm going to be brutally honest with you"

I have found that 90% of the time, people who would describe themselves as brutally honest are more enamoured with the brutality than the honesty

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
3. Here's an example of extreme political correctness:
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 01:24 AM
Dec 2015
'Brainstorming', the buzzword used by executives to generate ideas among their staff, has been deemed politically incorrect by civil servants because it is thought to be offensive to people with brain disorders.

Instead staff at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (DETI) in Belfast will use the term 'thought-showers' when they get together to think creatively. A spokeswoman said: 'The DETI does not use the term brainstorming on its training courses on the grounds that it may be deemed pejorative.'

Sources inside the department said there was concern that the term would cause offence to people with epilepsy as well those with brain tumours or brain injuries.

But the Campaign for Plain English complained that the decision had 'reached the point of real ridicule'. 'You do sometimes wonder if some people haven't got anything better to do with their time,' said spokesman John Wild. 'Do they just sit down and search out enough words until eventually they can say: "I can make that out to be politically incorrect"?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/jun/26/uk.politicalnews

bhikkhu

(10,718 posts)
6. There's the baby, and there's the bathwater
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 01:30 AM
Dec 2015

"brainstorming" is trivial. Respect and compassion are the real issue.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
9. The vast majority of DUers are respectful and compassionate people.
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 01:41 AM
Dec 2015

When they complain about "political correctness" it's not about not being able to use the n-word, it's about stuff like people insisting on "Holiday Tree" instead of "Christmas Tree" and phrases like "manhole cover" being declared to be sexist.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
39. Brainstorming is a red-herring, isn't bigotry, it doesn't stigmatize non-targets
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 10:02 AM
Dec 2015

on the other hand a statement like 'Donald Trump is certifiably mentally ill", is bigoted, overbroad and uses an innocent third party (people with unspecified/broad-brushed mental illness) to represent flaws in Trump.

The result goes beyond merely suggesting Trump has failings of character, but underscores the presence of false pathologies in Trump re unspecified symptoms supposedly present in the third party. Such statements reinforce stereotypes, prejudice and lead to discrimination against the third party.

But such language use shows up regularly herein because, it has been argued (even by DU Admin), that political discourse can't survive without such statements.

We should contemplate what that really means, and I suspect it doesn't evidence problems with opposing Trump or availability of vocabulary but rather the liberal/progressive quality of the degree of enlightenment revealed by writers' choices to endorse and exploit negative social attitudes re the third party.

Adding On Edit... Brain-storming uses storming as in an overwhelming use of force...storming beaches. The weapon of that force is the brains of the storm troops. The notion is coming up with a group of options on how to attack a problem by generating, sharing ideas.

deathrind

(1,786 posts)
7. I remember reading this...
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 01:33 AM
Dec 2015

and thinking that the PC concept has gone too far. But sure enough we stopped using the term where I work. Now it is referred to as "Let's get the group together and table top this issue for a solutions"

SMH...

BlueStater

(7,596 posts)
8. Except that doesn't seem to be what Trump and his supporters think "political correctness" is.
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 01:36 AM
Dec 2015

Their idea of "political correctness" is to mock a man who was born with a physical disability which limits the movement in one of his arms and then being rightfully called out as an asshole by decent people. They want to go back to the "good ol' days" when they could be openly hateful to whomever they wanted and not be criticized for it.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
15. The phrase "ugly people" might be offensive to attractiveness-challenged folks.
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 02:13 AM
Dec 2015

Please consider rewording or adding a trigger warning.

bhikkhu

(10,718 posts)
18. Real beauty is on the inside; or not.
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 02:31 AM
Dec 2015

Though even if "not", its still there, hidden away or suppressed or taught out of a person. People are basically good, but life can take its toll.

It actually took me a long time to learn that one, to not form opinions based on appearance. The genetics that form our physical appearances are fairly distinct from those that form our minds, and upbringing is independent of both.

meow2u3

(24,764 posts)
45. Trump and his supporters want a license to be disrespectful
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 01:21 PM
Dec 2015

of anyone who doesn't look or act like them. Which is par for the course, since they have no self-respect.

Roy Rolling

(6,918 posts)
23. There are two issues with "brainstorming"
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 02:51 AM
Dec 2015

1. It is arrogant of whoever thinks they can unilaterally change the meaning of a well-established word in the English language. Not gonna happen.

2. It's just a stupid rule. Those afflicted by brain disease and behavioral disorders (the REAL term for "mental illness&quot are not offended nor disparaged by the word "brainstorming". There are real issues of insensitivity that political correctness addresses, but this "cry wolf" whining about the term "brainstorming" is not one of them.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
11. In addition to respect, PCness also demands to stifle criticism (and gallows humor)
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 02:03 AM
Dec 2015

That's where Political Correctness can be overbearing.

bhikkhu

(10,718 posts)
22. I think it asks us to be better people
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 02:50 AM
Dec 2015

...especially those who represent others, or who stand as examples or public figures. I'm not sure where stifling criticism would come in, though gallows humor (and plenty of comedians I can think of) are pretty much exempt. That's a fairly compartmentalized thing, and has its own more or less complicated ethic.

A Yeats quote I've been fond of: "I have believed the best of every man, and I find that to believe it is enough to make a bad man show him at his best, or even a good man to swing his lantern higher".

Its not about finding the high ground from which to criticize others, but a common ground where we can be better people together. Having grown up among peers who were comfortable with racism, sexism, homophobic slurs, etc, which would alienate a significant portion of any population from "our" group, I'm very pleased to have seen a significant (though incremental) widening of the circle during my lifetime, some evolution toward an end to purposeless exclusion and alienation. The minutiae of language police and rule-making side can trivialize that, and perhaps there are many who prefer rules to understanding, but there is a larger point.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
25. I'll give you an example of gallows humor that would be censored in public
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 03:03 AM
Dec 2015

I won't waste time googling the actual names but there's this anecdote of a journalist who reported a group of actors who are friends and included Samuel Jackson or Morgan Freeman, forgot which, who jokingly called one of the white actors by the N word and got answered back in the same tone.

One can choose to be righteously offended in the name of PC principles or one can use common sense and see intention first, i.e. a group having fun. But I'm pretty sure that had the journalist been one of those people who take PC-ness oh-so-seriously, he would have taken offense.

 

rusty quoin

(6,133 posts)
14. Good for you and us.
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 02:10 AM
Dec 2015

I was telling my wife earlier that I cannot understand these people, how they hold people who have nothing to do with an attack somehow responsible for it.

I guess I understand it on an intellectual level, but my gut cannot believe it's happening.

It's mob behavior.

KT2000

(20,584 posts)
19. you are so right
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 02:35 AM
Dec 2015

what is wrong with being respectful and showing manners. I do not get it - so many people support Trump and doesn't he go against what most of were taught as children? Actually it makes me sad.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
21. Thank you for your thoughtful post. Yes, another way of putting it is
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 02:45 AM
Dec 2015

following the "Golden Rule."

Maybe they're not teaching it anymore in school, but they should be.

 

47of74

(18,470 posts)
28. People who complain about political correctness...
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 03:31 AM
Dec 2015

....are usually the same ones who are upset because they can't use the N word in public with impunity.

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
32. the vast majority of times when I hear the term "politically correct" it is an
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 05:52 AM
Dec 2015

attempt to justify some kind of discrimination, racism and/or bigotry. Okay, I'll agree that there are people who go overboard looking for things to shout bigotry over - but that is rarely what people mean when they use the term politically correct. Almost always they are bigots who don't to want be restrained in any of their bigotry.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
33. This ^^^^^^^
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 06:45 AM
Dec 2015

And they are upset at any pushback over the new-found group they believe that can have carte-blanche to feel superior to - Muslims. It's almost like they are surprised. "You're going to defend this group? They are out to kill us. (I thought I had a group I could hate without that stuff)."

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
35. Will the Term "Master Bedroom" No Longer Exist?
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 08:24 AM
Dec 2015
Some designers, architects, developers are moving towards a more politically-correct term for the largest room in the house.

Would you ever call your master bedroom, an "Owner's Suite"? Or what about "Owner's Bedroom?" An article on Gawker cited a survey from the Washington Business Journal that found some real estate developers in the Washington, D.C. area no longer use the term "Master Bedroom" in their floor plans. Some people believe that there are negative connotations to the term, gender-wise and historically. Of the survey of 10 homebuilders in the D.C. area, six no longer use the word. Instead, they're using "Owner's suite," "Owner's bedroom," or "Mastre Bedroom." In fact, some in the industry, such as Brian Block, managing broker for McLean's RE/Max Allegiance, told the Washington Business Journal that he prefers those terms because they imply a luxurious space with a lavish bath and custom closets.

http://www.housebeautiful.com/lifestyle/fun-at-home/a1087/master-bedroom-politically-incorrect/

bhikkhu

(10,718 posts)
40. Perhaps a better understanding, which might elude the majority now
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 11:32 AM
Dec 2015

is that science has shown there are, in fact, "male" and "female" brain types, which have subtle differences. The similarities vastly outweigh the differences, but a distinction can still be made.

Further, and more importantly, science has shown that these two types of brain are not necessarily determined by physical gender. The generation I was born into has a great deal of difficulty understanding how this could be. When I talked about it to my kids, it seemed obvious to them - no big news, really.

The language becomes less important if we no longer judge by appearances.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
36. Authors told not to write about sausages or pigs in children's books to 'avoid offence'
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 08:25 AM
Dec 2015
Authors of UK-published school books have been asked to take other cultures into account when writing in order to allow their texts to be exported to foreign countries.

Suggested guidelines for authors published by Oxford University Press (OUP) include not portraying the consumption of pork or bacon, which is not eaten in the Muslim world.

A spokesperson for Oxford University Press explained that books needed to be applicable to other cultures in order for them to be exported.

“Many of the educational materials we publish in the UK are sold in more than 150 countries, and as such they need to consider a range of cultural differences and sensitivities,” the spokesperson said.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/authors-of-school-books-advised-not-to-write-about-pork-9976620.html
 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
38. A consistent reliance on Reductio ad absurdum
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 10:00 AM
Dec 2015

A consistent reliance on Reductio ad absurdum is by its very nature, irrational.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
42. Have you walked in their particular shoes?
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 11:51 AM
Dec 2015
It seems to me that, in practice, this means little more than being freely disrespectful, uncaring of people's feelings, judgemental of anyone who doesn't fit a certain mold, and unapologetically hateful toward anyone who shows compassion for people who are different or less fortunate.

I am inclined to think that when "political correctness" is referred to dismissively it has nothing to do with politics and much to do with wishing that the old easy path of anger, hate, narrow self-interest, and childish meanness was somehow ok again.


That sounds like judging other people.

bhikkhu

(10,718 posts)
46. Yes. And there is a fairly easy way to dismiss that common objection
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 09:18 PM
Dec 2015

The objection, most often heard from the right wing, would be that one cannot object to intolerance without being intolerant oneself, or that relativism requires that all viewpoints are valid, so nobody can be criticised. Anyone who's raised kids has probably also heard varieties of that from their children as well.

First, we have values that we hope everyone can share and enjoy - human dignity, compassion, equality, freedom, well-being, justice, respect, happiness, etc. These are things we all learn through experience to value, and arguments for them aren't hard to come by. Again, if you've raised kids (or been a teacher, or anything of that sort) you've probably run through the gamut of arguments. Then we criticize behavior that is contrary to those values. A person within a culture is well suited to criticize the behavior of others within that culture on those terms. Which leads to argument or discussion, which is just fine. That's how people communicate and learn from one another.

I don't judge people, but I do judge behavior, according to the values I hold. As far as what I am comfortable addressing that way, I've walked in those shoes my whole life. I can say from experience that behaving badly leads to bad outcomes, and there are better ways to be, that some behaviors spread hurt and alienation, while others build the bonds of trust and community.

In another sense, human feelings are also human universals: things we all innately have, experience and understand. We all wear those shoes. Human development is also something innate that we all go through, regardless of culture, and with just the details of experience differing from life to life. In early childhood, it is natural to be wholly self-centered, deceitful, even manipulative. It is also natural for children to act reflexively in anger, and various other "bad" things. We learn to do better as we grow up, we all wear those shoes as well.

When the behavior of a child is criticized its is also very natural (and consistently probable, for whatever reason) for the child to try to turn the argument from a criticism of behavior to a criticism of the person. That is, "you think I'm a terrible person", "now you hate me!", and so on. By various means to sidetrack the learning of and the importance of values, and begin a pity party instead.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
43. Animal Academics: Using the Word ‘Pet’ Insults Your Pet, er, Companion
Wed Dec 23, 2015, 12:06 PM
Dec 2015
Here’s a frightening thought: The cat ladies are right. Kitties (and their doggie counterparts) are companions, not pets, and calling them otherwise is just plain offensive.

According to a report published in the Journal of Animal Ethics, using “derogatory” terms such as “critters,” “beasts,” and — you guessed it — “pets” when referring to animals of any kind can affect the way they are treated.

In other words, a note for animal caretakers (don’t even mutter the word “owners” — that’s even worse than “pets”) everywhere: You’re doing it wrong.

.....

“Our existing language about animals is the language of past thought – and the crucial point is that the past is littered with derogatory terminology,” the report states. “We shall not be able to think clearly unless we discipline ourselves to use less than partial adjectives in our exploration of animals and our moral relations with them.”

http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/04/29/animal-academics-using-the-word-pet-insults-your-pet-er-companion/?hpt=T2
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»When I was young, long be...