General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGun nuts at "bearingarms.com" faults Tamir Rice for his own death.
http://bearingarms.com/accidental-suicide-cop-truth-behind-death-tamir-rice/We know where the racist gun nuts stand. No defense of Tamir's right to open carry as stated under Ohio state law.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)When these kinds of tragedies occur, one can blame the police and the gun "enthusiasts," even those who characterize themselves as "responsible."
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)True. We should by all means minimize both the device used to kill Tamir and his color as a probable factor into his death, else we may illustrate both in a light not flattering to the NRA.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)abused, intimidated, etc.
If you are tired of reading about guns, encourage your friends to denounce them and get rid of all but one or two AT HOME for hunting and maybe self-defense. Also, change your user name to something like "Eleanorwaswrongaboutgunz."
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)full-time. You can post, I can post.
Sound good? I'll back the necessary changes in the -- ahem -- SOP.
Logical
(22,457 posts)How could I be otherwise? The tap on Gunz is opened and closed in a very mysterious manner; generally open. But rules is rules and I try to follow them, however murky and fogged in. There are many OPs now posted in the Gungeon by pro-2A folks which could be more fully discussed in GD, and from what can tell, at least some of the banners would like that too, given the volume and consistency with which they wind up here. Perhaps there is an off-the-books manner in which the alleged Gunz "exception" is used here which, you know, might give the antis a leg up on posting policy. Don't want to get meta, but don't you think the current standard re Gunz is dead as a dock side mullet?
What do you think about right now? Is the Gunz "exception" non-applicable? And why is that? So mysterioso.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)How progressive...
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)More than are saying the cops did nothing wrong, in fact...
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)We're all horrible, racist neanderthals just dying to go "Dirty Harry" on someone.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)be snarky, but it absolutely seems like that to me.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)If so, I'm genuinely surprised. Never had anything like that said to me, well...ever (save for simpletons who say that sort of thing about all gun owners...and their opinions are valueless to me).
If, however, you were speaking on broader terms, I certainly agree that there's a segment of the gun owning population (remember: there are 80 million or so of us) that's like that. They're an embarrassment, but they loom large. Big mouths of whatever persuasion usually do.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)feel they're an embarrassment or drop being part of the embarrassment.
Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)Snobblevitch
(1,958 posts)What does that mean?
beevul
(12,194 posts)Or are some extremists more equal than other extremists?
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Shall we start with male genitalia and why it is acceptable to use in a sexist manner on DU?
beevul
(12,194 posts)Gun ban proponents are the textbook definition of extremists. That's not an opinion, that's an empirical fact.
In fact, gun banners make up the single loudest extremist group in the gun debate.
You can deny it, but that wont make the truth stop hurting.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)LOL, funniest post of the day.
hack89
(39,171 posts)we don't blame all Muslims for terrorism, we don't blame all blacks for gang violence.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)tell muslims they need to take care of their own countries / problems. Remember saying we shouldn't go into Iraq?
hack89
(39,171 posts)I feel no obligation to "clean house".
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)I'm not a psychologist, so I really can't say.
As for cleaning house, well...I reject that notion just like I reject the notion of all Muslims having a similar responsibility for dealing with that group's nasty outliers. Or all blacks having some special responsibility to deal with young black men committing crimes at a disproportionate rate. And so forth... Collective guilt is an ethically indefensible notion.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Since when did it become legal for a juvenile to open carry a firearm?
That said, that cop committed a murder when he shot Tamir.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts).... but, this isn't about "guns" .... this is about the disregard so many members of law enforcement have for the lives of PoC (especially black people)
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)Thank you
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... Made some bad decisions.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)If you watch the video, he wasn't given so much as 3 seconds to "surrender."
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... And if anyone from Tamir to the officers to the dispatch had made a differenct choice, things could have been different.
JI7
(89,264 posts)TipTok
(2,474 posts)Pointing it at folks in the park (which resulted in the original call)
Modifying it to the point / carrying it in such a manner where it couldn't be immediately identified as a toy...
Like I said, lots of bad decisions all around...
haele
(12,676 posts)No one ever has told me if the friend had picked at the orange tip to remove it or if Tamir had. Kids - and a 12 year old is still a kid! - modify their toys like that all the time, especially if they think a part that otherwise does nothing looks lame on their toy.
You're still blaming the kid for 1) being 12 years old and black, 2) with a toy gun, 3) out in public on a playground by himself, where he's easy prey.
Because sure as hell, if he had not been by himself, the police would have been a lot more cautious approaching him, and he probably would have been given a warning for playing with a bb-gun, instead of being rolled up on and shot before he had a chance to react to anything.
It's rather like the "situational liability/contributing factor" insurance assessment of injured parties after the fact.
While it's both a moral and criminal wrong to assault or rob someone, and the criminal is 100% at fault, when it comes to insurance companies, not being aware of your situation or failure to take reasonable protective is a contributing factor when looking at the liability and determining "fault" for restitution determination in an insurance settlement. If your home gets robbed and a house-guest gets injured in the process, they will look at what you did to "burglar proof" your home and everything that could have been done to avoid the injury as part of their assessment on how much they are going to pay you and cover the medical bills of person being injured.
In other words, the victim's situational liability becomes a contributing factor in the pay-out for the situation.
Unfortunately, situational liability been used in courts to mitigate the "fault" of the person doing the crime, especially when the criminal comes from a class of defendants that have the resources to pay for protection from liability - like corporations, wealth, or public service.
Finding anything to blame Tamir Rice, who had not done anything that carried penalty under the law, for his own death is attempting to create a contributing factor for his murder to be his "responsibility", a tactic to lessen the accountability on the police - y'know, the cowards who drove up at high speed and fatally shot him within two seconds of swinging open a patrol car door because they saw a black youth sitting alone in a park, and "knew" he had to be a criminal thug that was a drag on society.
Might as well say that because he was playing with a bb-gun missing it's orange tip now, that is a sure indicator that in just two years, he'd have been a gun-toting gang-banger shooting up a neighborhood in a turf war, randomly killing toddlers and school kids - so it's just better to shoot him now, while he's just a lil'shorty, before he turns into a crack-smoking, heroin-dealing cold blooded thug.
If this sounds a bit hyperbolic, it's because that stereotype ends up being the underlying reasoning for most people I've discussed this with who try to say "why didn't his parents teach him how to act in public", or "he shouldn't have been on the playground with a toy gun that looked real" or "the police had a right to be in fear of their lives, how did they know he wasn't in a gang and going to shoot them..."
I have found that behind the argument that Tamir Rice bears any responsibility for the police shooting him always goes back to a race-based assumption. It's always been the "feeling" that young black men are at heart gang-bangers, no matter if they stay in the 'hood, or if they go to Harvard. And there's a certain type of law-and-order personality (not just white) that believes that young black men (and women) need to be neutered; if they aren't under strict social control, the color of their skin indicates that their true nature , which is to run wild and rampant, and they will infect good, hardworking (white) kids with their drugs and parties and casual, lazy "other-ness".
And it's very difficult to convince these people that they're fearful, ridiculously judgmental reactionaries.
Haele
TipTok
(2,474 posts)I'm haven't looked into it that deeply but didn't the original 911 call happen because he was pointing that realistic looking weapon / toy at folks?
That is a criminal act...
As for all the race stuff, you are the one bringing that into it. None of my points relate to his race in any way whatsoever.
I can't speak to what he would have become in the years following. I can only speak about what happened that day.
I will say that my kids know that guns of any kind are never ever to be pointed at anyone.
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Yeah, I get that.
Bettie
(16,125 posts)anyone who dies at the end of a gun is actually responsible for their own death, because a "responsible gun owner" (which they all are, don'cha know) totally needed killing.
Plus, who thinks open carry is for black people?
GAH. This whole thing makes me so angry and it also makes me feel so helpless. People are dying and our justice system does nothing except try to make the victims guilty of their own deaths.
Waldorf
(654 posts)Need to be 21 to buy a handgun.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts).... so (according to them), that would be an irrelevant point.
this is solely about deeply ingrained systemic racism in policing .... not about guns
My Good Babushka
(2,710 posts)it has been brought up that it's not legal for a juvenile to open carry. If they knew he was a juvenile that just makes it even worse! I don't know why that's being brought up as an excuse. It's legal to open carry unless you are a minor, and then you deserve to be shot down in cold blood? This represents what American justice thinks of the rights and protections for a child? It's sickening.
ileus
(15,396 posts)It may not be what you think.
The cops rolled up on this kid and in 2 seconds shot him down...
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Still, I think the officer(s) was negligent in rushing up to shoot the kid without better ascertaining what was going on. Police work is dangerous, but it doesn't give one license to shoot anyone within seconds without seeing what was going on.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)I see a kid sitting at a picnic table leaving it for five minutes, returning, then two cops show up and blow his ass away for no damned reason at other other than the fact that the kid was black.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)n/t
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Hell, even DUers were faulting him for his death when the story first came out...