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Professor Has Simple Way To Deal With Open Carry Activists(VIDEO at Link)
Professor Has Simple Way To Deal With Open Carry Activists, And Pro-Gun Businesses Aren’t Going To Like It (VIDEO)
If you’re enjoying a nice meal at a restaurant with your family and you see a man carrying an assault rifle walk in, it could be one of two things: either he’s a crazy person intent on killing someone or he’s a crazy person intent on showing his gun off in public and daring someone to ask him to leave it at home. While the NRA would say just give him the benefit of the doubt, the possibility that you could be the victim of a shooting might make you lose your appetite.
You would think that businesses wouldn’t want that kind of scenario being played out in their establishments – people afraid of dying don’t usually stay for dessert – but instead they are more concerned with upsetting the guys with guns. And for good reason. The NRA* and other pro-gun groups have demonstrated again and again, they are willing to bring down a world of pain on any business that they perceive as going soft on supporting people’s God-given right to carry machine guns wherever they go.
Consequently, there wasn’t really a good way to prevent this from happening.
Finally, a philosophy professor thinks he may have come up with a solution. Pro-gun businesses are going to hate it.
"My proposal is as follows: we should all leave. Immediately. Leave the food on the table in the restaurant. Leave the groceries in the cart, in the aisle. Stop talking or engaging in the exchange. Just leave, unceremoniously, and fast."
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/31/professor-has-simple-way-to-deal-with-open-carry-activists-and-pro-gun-businesses-arent-going-to-like-it-video/
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Seems reasonable to me.
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GoneFishin
(5,217 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Well, the article's from 2014 so....
it hasn't yet.
But thats what I'd do. If they want you to pay... tell them to send you a bill, where you may pay in the safety of your own home.
The gun nut narcissism part is spot on.
We still have to deal with concealed weapons tho'. Scarier.
yuiyoshida
(41,835 posts)
postulater
(5,075 posts)I have supported open carry.
And my reasons are in line with the above.
I want to be able to trust the person at the next table doesn't have a gun on them. If I see a person with a gun when not hunting I will leave the vicinity.
7962
(11,841 posts)No need to show a potential attacker just exactly where his first target should be.
And concealed doesnt scare anyone because no one knows its there.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Open carry, outside of rural situations where it's not that unusual and there's actually a reason for it, is silly. It's tactically dumb (for the reason you state) and as a method of social activism, it's staggeringly counterproductive.
hunter
(38,322 posts)Piss on guns.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)
leftyladyfrommo
(18,869 posts)She was very pro concealed carry. Which surprised me.
I guess here 8n Missouri the concealed carry people have a thorough background check done. And then they go through a lot of hours of trying classes. She said they have more training than a lot of police officers do.
I still don't like it but I did feel better bout it. I'm not anti guns. But I just don't think they have any place out in the public.
CurtEastPoint
(18,656 posts)Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Not the stupidest thing I have read this week, but close.
And yes, if you leave without paying, that is theft. Leaving without a tip for your server isn't theft but makes you a total asshole. "The guy with a gun scared me" isn't an adequate legal defense if the person with a gun was behaving lawfully.
Lets see- open carry guys pays his bill and tips and is friendly, anti-gun activist runs out not paying for his food or leaving a tip. Whose actions are mostly likely to bring people over to their side and who is most likely to be seen as an irrational asshole?
Hopefully lots of people engaging in this stupidity get prosecuted for walking out on meals. At a minimum they are in for a fun traffic stop when the employees get their tag number and call the police to report a dine and dash.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)As an attorney, I will gladly address the "theft" thing. If the restaurant catches fire, or some other unsafe condition occurs, you are under no obligation to sit at a table and wait for a check, and you are perfectly within your rights to protect your physical safety by leaving the premises.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)And I do not think you would win a case of theft if there was not immediate threat. Stealing is wrong and should not be fine. Leave but pay your bill if you want to. They provided the service.
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)I could use the same line for leaving the restaurant. A stranger with a gun walks in. Is he sane? Insane? Angry? Looking for his wife's boyfriend? Just trying to lull everyone into a false sense of security before killing as many as he can? I have NO way of knowing. NO way of knowing. When some stranger comes into my vicinity with a gun, I leave. Quickly, and without asking questions. I will not bet my life on an armed stranger's good or bad intentions when I have no way of knowing his intentions. I simply cannot afford to take that kind of risk with the only life I have.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)You do not have to wait for the guy to start shooting.
Tell them you'll come back and pay later.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)You would pay before you leave for the service provided.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)I'll be in the parking lot waiting for them.
Indydem
(2,642 posts)People like you perpetuating the idea that it is an unsafe condition, or poses a threat to others is the real problem.
People who are intending to do harm don't open carry. They conceal their firearms as to not draw attention.
You understand the difference between "carry" and "brandish" right?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Indydem
(2,642 posts)If you are going to cower in fear every time you see someone with a firearm, just stay in your domicile.
After all, wouldn't want to scare you.
Demit
(11,238 posts)That's not cowering in fear. That's exercising sensible caution. And exercising my right to be out wherever I want to be. Gun nuts don't own the public space.
What if it's an off duty or plain clothes police officer carrying a sidearm?
Your assumptions are ridiculous.
Demit
(11,238 posts)I'm going to exercise my rights too.
Yes, gun nut. Anyone who can't deal with going to a restaurant without publicly displaying a gun is a nut.
Response to Demit (Reply #48)
Post removed
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)Hence, the need to have a loaded security blanket in public.
When they outlaw thumb-sucking in public, only outlaws will suck thumbs in public.
kracer20
(199 posts)That is awesome, and I'm going to steal that quote.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)
randys1
(16,286 posts)
retrowire
(10,345 posts)fear is what keeps the antelope from being eaten by the lion.
You want to mock and ridicule fear as a weakness?
Then enjoy being the lions dinner.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)....Said the guy defending running around everywhere with a loaded gun. 
People WITHOUT guns are not afraid of the world, you doofus. Who the hell needs a gun at a restaurant?
It's the gun nuts who make the world scary.
Stay at home and caress your stupid gun.... get a room!
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)...only concerned about the gun and the person carrying it, whom they do not know, not the world.
Also, that you have made no attempt to comment to the five respondents previous to me show that you have nothing to counter your assertion that people who are concerned about guns are the ones afraid of the world.
It is YOU who is afraid of the world, with your stupid gun. You going to target practice at IHOP? Pfffft!
HAVE SOME FUCKING RESPECT!! for those around you who may not be thinking about your Constitutional right to have a gun while being uncomfortable at the sight of it, and the knowledge that they do not know you or your intentions.
HAVE SOME FUCKING RESPECT!!
TipTok
(2,474 posts)You don't have a right to steal, as recommended by the OP.
randys1
(16,286 posts)TipTok
(2,474 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 5, 2016, 11:03 PM - Edit history (2)
... Otherwise every racist who thinks that a black person might rob them could walk out of every restaurant with a black patron.
There is a reasonableness standard.
This same idiocy comes up when controllers think they would be justified in shooting/ running over anyone they see with a gun because they, personally, are scared.
edit: That isn't what the lawyer said and thus he isn't wrong. An actual threat is a perfectly legitimate reason to leave without paying. Guy with a holstered or properly slung weapon is not... Legally.. Leaving the old post to keep everything square.
randys1
(16,286 posts)TipTok
(2,474 posts)... And you can break whichever laws you like if you, personally, are scared? No matter how irrationally?
randys1
(16,286 posts)TipTok
(2,474 posts)... and maybe you should as well.
"If the restaurant catches fire, or some other unsafe condition occurs, you are under no obligation to sit at a table and wait for a check, and you are perfectly within your rights to protect your physical safety by leaving the premises."
A guy with a gun in a holster, legally allowed to carry it, and displaying no other overt signs of hostility doesn't meet that criteria.
I've PMed the aforementioned attorney to add his $.02 as well.
branford
(4,462 posts)If you partake of services at a restaurant and then leave without paying, absent truly exigent or emergency circumstances, you technically have engaged in criminal theft. If your defense is that you feared an individual lawfully carrying a firearm into the establishment without objection from the owner, and not otherwise breaking any laws (e.g., brandishing, etc.), your claimed fear would not be considered legally reasonable and would almost certainly be precluded as a viable defense. Despite how distasteful open carry might be to you or your personal belief in its danger, where legal and permitted on premises, it is absolutely nothing like a fire or similar circumstance. Moreover, I believe the prior attorney fully knows this to be the truth, and more than likely was implying the patron's fear might be defensible in a civil court context, rather than in criminal court (although in places that allow open carry, that too is quite questionable).
In any event, from a far more practical and realistic perspective, if you fear the lawful open (or concealed) carrying of firearms, I suggest you only dine at establishments that forbid them in accordance with state and local regulations. At the very least, if you decide to suddenly leave a restaurant, regardless of circumstance, I similarly suggest you leave a adequate sum of money to your server or on the table to cover the cost of your meal and an appropriate gratuity.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Exactly what I said, glad you agree.
branford
(4,462 posts)and you appear to have selectively read my post.
Dining without promptly paying is criminal theft, absent VERY, VERY unusual and exigent circumstances, such as large and spreading fire (and you still would be obligated to pay for your meal as soon as reasonably possible). Your fear, dislike, or contempt of an individual legally carrying a firearm, open or concealed, with the consent of the dining establishment, and otherwise not obviously breaking any other laws (e.g., brandishing), would most certainly not be considered an appropriate emergency or similar circumstance where you would be permitted to leave the restaurant without paying, and would almost certainly be precluded as a defense if charged with theft.
In addition to any criminal charges, a restaurant would also be permitted to sue you in civil court to recover the cost of your meal. As I previously stated, where open carry is legal, and no other criminal conduct occurred, it is extremely unlikely you would be able to argue that such conduct excused your leaving the restaurant without paying. Far more importantly, even if a court allowed such a pleading and a judge and/or jury believed your fear was reasonable, you still would be obligated to pay for your meal, and your "defense" would only protect you from supplemental penalties such as those arising from additional intentional torts like fraud and possibly some accrued interest.
Simply, if you order a meal, you will have to pay for it.
randys1
(16,286 posts)I just find his argument better than yours.
branford
(4,462 posts)At the very least, my posts prove that reliance on such appeals to authority are not remotely as certain as you want or suggest.
Further, legal arguments and rationales are not "better' because they suggest the outcome you like or expect. I routinely have to remind my clients of this simple truism.
Nevertheless, feel free to "dine and dash" if you see someone legally carrying a firearm and otherwise obeying all other pertinent laws. Don't say I didn't warn you of the consequences if you find yourself effectively defenseless in criminal and/or civil court.
stone space
(6,498 posts)It's not clear to me what the two have in common.
Did Citizens United declared guns to be people?
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... is that both are legal and have every right to be in the public space and thus are illegitimate reasons to steal and walk out on a tab because an individual has a hang up about them.
stone space
(6,498 posts)You didn't answer my question.
Do you believe that Black folks in our society should be treated like guns?
Do you believe that guns are people?
Or do you believe that Black folks are nonliving inanimate dangerous objects designed and engineered for killing?
You aren't making much sense here.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)Things don't have to be exactly the same to share commonalities...
One thing that guns and black people have in common is that they are legally permitted in the public space. This could also apply to clowns, silverware and your mother.
Better now?
Go ahead and think on it for a while and if you still need help, I might draw you a venn diagram when I get back.
stone space
(6,498 posts) TipTok
(2,474 posts)... And don't really have anything to say against it other than it makes you uncomfortable.
They are both made of atoms as well and occupy space. Does that bother you as well?
stone space
(6,498 posts)TipTok
(2,474 posts)You were closest though..
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)And indeed they do.
I am sure racists will fill you fill of anecdotes of how dangerous black folks are just like the anti-gun folks here do about gun owners, and will probably quote the cherry picked statistics that support their irrational fears just like anti-gun folks do.
Its actually a remarkably similar pattern of behavior...
stone space
(6,498 posts)Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)I simply pointed out that anti-gun folks and racists follow the same pattern in their behaviors.
But I can understand how you would scream racism when its pointed out that your behavior is remarkably similar to that of racists.... because you can't dispute that the pattern is there in the same kind of irrational fear and hatred. If you took any gun thread on DU and replaced "ammosexual" and "gunners" and the rest of those terms with racist epitaphs the posts would be right at home over on stormfront.
In fact the whole premise of this post, leaving an establishment that serves the kind of people you have an irrational fear of and demanding they no longer serve them if they want to to return, is a shining example of how the south worked in the 1950's with race.... its the exact same way racists think and work.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Black folks aren't.
Really, WTF is wrong with you to continue to double down on pushing this sort of racist bullshit even after being called out on it?
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)And people with irrational fears or hatred of gun owners behave just like people with irrational fears and hatred of minorities
A person refusing to stay in a restaurant because a person walked in with a holstered pistol is just as irrational as a person who leaves the same establishment because a group of black people who look like "thugs" walks in.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)similarity of those two arguments. Really should look in the mirror over his irrational fear of people. I guess the gun might just get out and start firing without that person touching it. Two people, two irrational fears.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,869 posts)Or just a big showoff. Look at me. Look at me. I have a gun. Look what a big, macho guy I am?
And I drive a big ass truck, too. And I wear a cool cowboy hat. And I stand around with my legs spread wide apart with my arms folded over my chest.
I'm cool. I'm cool.
They need to get a life.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Apparently, you are unlikely to find me in any of the low class places where you cower in fear behind your weapon.
I do not frequent the same places as such cowards who cannot go out in public absent their killing machine.
Response to jberryhill (Reply #19)
Post removed
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)As I don't tend to go to restaurants where firearms are needed to keep order among the patrons.
EriktheRedder
(17 posts)While I am a supporter of second amendment rights (hope that doesn't get me banned), there needs to be a balance in my opinion. I don't like general open carry everywhere, many reasons why in this thread that I agree with, I am okay with concealed carry as I will admit I do. But I've had extensive training not only to get the concealed permit but military training as well.
It is too easy for a citizen with a clean background to go in to a gun store, pass a background check, and get a weapon they have no knowledge of how to use it. I think some training should be in order, a "well regulated militia".
My 2 cents and while Obama's words today on his executive order spoke to the heart, not really sure what it will really do to stem gun violence.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)EriktheRedder
(17 posts)Car accidents far outweigh deaths by mass shootings. Should we spend more resources to prevent car accidents or mass shootings? I think both.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)It's you and your guns.
snort
(2,334 posts)10,000 times.
FSogol
(45,514 posts)Scuba
(53,475 posts)
mikeysnot
(4,757 posts)Oh the irony.
azureblue
(2,149 posts)Tell us how a person can identify a good guy with a gun, vs a bad guy with a gun? And how would your white a$$ react if a bunch of black folk walked in carrying firearms? I bet your racist butt would start shooting at first sight. Your definition of a good guy with a gun is a white guy with a fresh shave.
Trouble is you open carry nuts don't realize how easy it is to take that firearm away from you. You have some Walter Mitty idea that you will have time to draw, release the safety, aim and fire before you get shot or attacked. And in a restaurant, bubba, let me tell you, you do not. You got you butt planted in that booth and a burger in your hands, and you think you are going to react to whatever threat your fevered imagination concocts, I got news for you. Add to it, I seriously doubt you have any moving target or real world attack training, to boot.
Go on, ask someone who has served and been under fire, how many bullets it takes to hit your enemy. Now ask your dumb self, "where do those bullets go to?" They don't magically dissipate. Nope,they keep going until they hit something. Or some one. So if you are really good at hitting a moving target that is firing back at you at close range, then you probably have a hit rate of about one to four. So ask yourself, where do those other four bullets go to? Into little Suzie's chest? That back of the guy who is running out the door? through the wall and into the head of the chef? Ah, finally, one of them hit the bad guy. Did it stop him or did it just piss him off and he is firing at you and your family, and he doesn't give a crap who he kills now? Congratulations...
You are a threat. You got a gun, I don't know if you are a good guy or a bad guy. I will assume you are a bad guy, because no one in their right mind carries a weapon in a crowded area, so if I have a gun, and i shoot you dead then I am the good guy, right?
flamin lib
(14,559 posts)you can't leave home without a gun. Now who's the coward?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)" just stay in your domicile..."
That does seem to be the only option available to the myopic or small minded-- the same minds which consistently conflate melodramatic fear and mere concern.
Though a rational mind will perceive additional options, I fully realize that accepting more than two choices doesn't allow the proper environment for simplistic bumper-sticker philosophies and theatrical biases to flourish in the dank and moldy cellars of an underachieving mind.
"wouldn't want to scare you." Booga-booga-booga!
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)then you're the one who needs to stay home.
stone space
(6,498 posts)If you are going to cower in fear every time you see someone with a firearm, just stay in your domicile.
What's wrong with you?
Why would you say such a thing?
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Battle ax or sword?
How about a crossbow? A halberd?
Indydem
(2,642 posts)Do you think LARPers are actually going to hurt you?
Why are you so afraid?
blackspade
(10,056 posts)
Well at least you are not a hypocrite like most gun humpers.
I worry, though, because there is a social problem in a free society when a small section of it feels so afraid that they feel the need to open or conceal carry weapons.
It implies that public spaces are so threatening, just by being public, that some among us think that they will need to resort to violence at some point.
Their fear is what concerns me. If one is so afraid that they feel the need to carry weapons openly, how does society at large gage when that fear will turn to violence?
Indydem
(2,642 posts)People who carry firearms for protection don't just decide to murder everyone in a restaurant.
It does not happen.
People who want to go kill a bunch of people at a restaurant bring multiple guns and a bunch of ammo.
I don't carry. Don't see the need. Don't even own a handgun. But if someone else wants to, I do not care.
It is none of my business. Period.
I understand that I have a better chance of being blown up by a gas leak than of being randomly shot in a public space by a random person.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)You just made the point that public spaces are safe.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Hey.... the Russians may show up at any moment!
(actually heard such arguments from ammosexuals)
GUN -
NUTS!
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)When I was a deputy it was common to see farmers with a pistol on their hip in the restaurants for breakfast or dinner, and see hunters with rifles or bows at the gas station during hunting season, or ones who were in a Jeep with no doors or top would often bring their bows or rifles inside instead of leaving them open for theft.
If Joe Bob got a new bow and saw Jim Bob at the grocery store he would probably pull it out in the parking lot to show him. Nobody cared.
Indydem
(2,642 posts)Except people who are terrified of life and have been told that everyone is out to get them.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 5, 2016, 06:42 PM - Edit history (1)
Irony is definitely one of your gifts.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)are doing so out of irrational fear.
Thanks! 
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Grocery store if I was carrying a battle ax? Or a flamberge?
Right....
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)How are you dressed? How are you behaving?
Dressed in some medieval LARP type costume? Wouldn't question a thing.
Granted a battle ax would be far less commonly seen than a firearm where I worked, but if you were not acting erratic at most I might, in a non-confrontational tone, say "whats up with the ax?"
If you were acting in an erratic or threatening fashion, a person known to me to have been a problem in the past, or the owner/manager of the store asked me to act then I would respond differently.
The only violation of law in NC that would be possible is a law called "armed at the terror of the public" but that wouldn't apply on private property and one would have to prove that the intent was to cause fear- so if the person said they were taking the item from one place to another on foot and stopped to buy some cereal along the way that would explain its possession well enough to make proving that element hard.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Would you be asking all of the above questions of someone open carrying a pistol or long gun?
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)And saying I needed more info was more about how you can't answer a one line hypothetical online because in the real world you have more info around the entire circumstance.
Open carry of a long gun inside a store where I worked would be unusual, so I might ask them what's up. Depends on circumstances such is- is it hunting season, how is the person dressed, time of day, etc.
Open carry of a pistol was common, so absent some actions or circumstance that looked suspicious I wouldn't do anything. I often was eating lunch in uniform at a BBQ place where lots of farmers came in and were wearing a pistol on their hip. Nobody had any problems.
Jerry442
(1,265 posts)a tool that could render one or more people dead in a few seconds and in the venue he's carrying it has no other conceivable purpose than to do exactly that.
Yup, no safety issue there.
Indydem
(2,642 posts)When someone walks in with a briefcase? After all, it could be a bomb, capable of killing everyone in the restaurant.
How about when someone serves you your food? Do you carefully examine it with a magic device to make sure there is no poison on it?
Of course these are ridiculous ideas, but so is the idea that someone carrying a firearm is going to harm you or anyone else. There are more firearms in this country than people, and yet only 10,000 people are murdered each year with guns. If firearms were such a danger, the homicide rate would be through the roof!
The presence of a firearm is no danger to you, any more than the hypothetical bomb or poison. You have been conditioned to fear firearms for no logical or rational reason.
Jerry442
(1,265 posts)TipTok
(2,474 posts)Jerry442
(1,265 posts)...if I had a bunch of bottles labeled sulfuric acid on the table in front of me.
Or if I was carrying a hatchet and a machete on my belt.
Or if I was wearing a gas mask.
Or if I was sitting with my friends and we all had baseball bats -- but no ball or gloves.
Yup, nobody's business but our own.
turbinetree
(24,710 posts)of paranoia ---------------------if you have to have a gun.
I am not asking anyone to have a gun to protect whatever, and where ever-----------------that is not there job function
I do not need to know who has one--------------------why, would I, my family or friends or for that matter the public at large......................what is really lacking in is the common sense matter of logic -------------------to show that a Amendment was factually based on slave patrols in Georgia, Virginia, for example and rebellions, like for example the Whiskey Rebellion, and just for giggles let's add in the factual concept of the Manifest Destiny mantra, and then later the Doctrine of Discovery----------------------which was to use and showed force with a gun, if anyone thinks that when they traded glass beads for some land and they didn't have a gun there to show what it could do,and who was the boss, then what can you say-------------who was responsible for that action and who was libel for there actions, that battle is still being carried on as we speak----------------------that is a fact
Second there is a issue of Liability "IN" the store, any store-----------------who is libel if, and IF is the big word in this game of semantics is "responsible" to protect the patrons of the store, the person with a gun, strapped on or over his shoulder-------------oh boy that makes a lot of sense, or just walking down a public square-------------------some individual , that say's look at me I have a gun------------------------oh boy
No Thanks, I think there should be signs up everywhere saying "NO GUNS ALLOWED" and if you have one, leave it at the sheriffs office, I think I will feel more comfortable.
I don't like going into a auto store looking for parts and seeing some dude with a gun strapped on his hip, or for that matter, lets say this guy walks into a bank with a gun strapped on his hip-------what do you think the bankers is going to do--------------------who is libel , the guy with the gun or the property owner---------------it's pretty simple
I do have the right to, Life Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, and not the feeling to have the show of force that someone with a gun is projecting on those rights, they are infringing on my rights------------------I am paying other people to protect my rights to have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness
Have a nice day
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Let's not forget, they knew the British would be back to claim their colonies (that's also the Militia stuff....which comes 1st in the amendment for a reason) And indeed the British DID come back in 1812. Burned Washington to the ground....
But mainly the 2nd Amendment is basically obsolete.... without many laws augmenting it..... because "arms" does not mean the same thing today as it did in the 1790s.
And don't give me that printing press BS. A printing press isn't meant to kill, and it essentially produces the same nonlethal results as it did in 1791. Not so for weapons.
Yep....logic and context has flown out the window.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts).. and write the same thing into their respective state constitutions?
What, those slave-loving folks in Pennsylvania, in 1790 (before the federal 2nd amendment) said, "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."
Or those horrible slave owners in Vermont, in 1777? "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State.."
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)And were (so they correctly thought) when these new states made their constitutions in a government with no regular army.... like we have now.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)As to the rest.. the founders could never have imagined the internet, so the first amendment shouldn't apply there, right?
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)If a fucking freak feels the need to play Gunsmoke at local restaurant establishments, I'm under no obligation to stay around or spend money at that establishment.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)and concealed carry people dropping their weapons in a public place and discharging their deadly load.
Vincardog
(20,234 posts)a gun
. In FL and other states You can kill anyone who makes you fear for your life.
But in you mind someone running around with a loaded assault rifle is no reason for concern.
I guess if that person was a Black Panther or a "Mzzlim" you might have a different take.
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)I won't stick around to give them that chance. I will get the hell as far away as I possibly can from anyone whose actions telegraph their ability to kill me with one finger. Why would anyone possibly open carry unless they wanted to be sure you know they can kill you with one finger?
stone space
(6,498 posts)People like you perpetuating the idea that it is an unsafe condition, or poses a threat to others is the real problem.
Yeah, DUers who are afraid of being shot are the real problem here.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... victimized and caused actual harm.
Mental anguish due to a personal fear and inability to do basic statistics doesn't count as actual harm.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Police Did Not Treat 911 Call About Colorado Gunman as "Highest Priority"
When an alarmed resident called just before the rampage, the dispatcher told her it's legal to carry a rifle in public.
As I first reported late Monday, questions are hanging over how the Colorado Springs Police Department handled a 911 call on Saturday morning, when a resident saw a man carrying a rifle on her residential block prior to a deadly gun rampage. The caller, Naomi Bettis, was alarmed about 33-year-old Noah Harpham—who soon went on to shoot three people to death in the area before being killed by police. But when Bettis made the 911 call, her first of two, the police dispatcher apparently reacted without urgency, telling Bettis about Colorado's law allowing firearms to be carried openly in public. Bettis hung up, and when she called back it was because the killing was underway.
Did Colorado's open carry law in effect hinder a police response to Harpham before he struck?
The first time Bettis dialed 911 and spoke with a dispatcher, "a call for service was built for officers to respond," Lt. Catherine Buckley of the Colorado Springs PD told Mother Jones. "But it wasn't the highest priority call for service."
-snip-
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/11/colorado-springs-mass-shooting-911-call-open-carry
uponit7771
(90,348 posts)Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)So while you might try and compare the two in court, I doubt you would win. I know you wouldn't in any of the jurisdictions I worked in.
Of course the first question would be "did you call 911 to report the danger" and if the person fled without doing so their claim it was a danger is shown to be disingenuous.
And the people advocating this know they are advocating irrational behavior, that is why they won't call 911 or advocate that because a false police report or misuse of 911 has consequences- just like dashing out without paying for a meal does.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)branford
(4,462 posts)See my Post #172.
In response to your prior comments, you are certainly free not to patronize an establishment that permits firearms on premises, open or concealed. However, failure to pay for your meal is still criminal and civil theft. Your generalized fear or dislike of firearms, without a clear demonstration that the individual carrying such a firearm was actually breaking the law or otherwise directly threatened anyone (which would in fact be illegal), would not be a legally recognized or viable defense to theft. Your fear would be no different than a situation where patrons "dined and dashed" simply because purportedly "scary" young black males with low riding pants listening to hip hop entered the restaurant.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Stop lying.
branford
(4,462 posts)if someone enters a restaurant legally carrying a firearm without objection from the owner and not otherwise breaking any other law.
I would love to be in court that day to see a judge's reaction to such nonsense.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Your legal threats mean nothing to me.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)Isn't that a primary complaint about the 1% around here?
Those rules aren't for me. Those are for the little people...
Something like that?
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Get defunded for not following the law as he just wanted is government funded paycheck.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)The total ignorance and/or disdain of the law combined with complete certainty in the righteousness of their point of view.
Very familiar..
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)...I've been threatened by DU ammosexuals before for declaring that intention, so I can understand if the victim might be afraid to do so.
It might make them subject to more attacks from other ammosexuals.
DU's NRA faction want anybody who runs or calls the cops thrown in jail.
They want to use legal intimidation over the internet to train us to just sit there and await slaughter out of fear of their threatened legal consequences for protecting ourselves.
branford
(4,462 posts)Calling 911 to report someone openly carrying a firearm where it is legally permissible, without any other illegal conduct, does not constitute an emergency. Your personal revulsion or fear of open carry is not a basis for a report of an emergency, no less when motivated to effectively harass someone in compliance with all relevant statutes.
Unfortunately, it is a common suggestion that people report all people legally carrying firearms as a "threat" simply because they choose to exercise the legal right to carry a firearm. This is an unequivocal abuse of the 911 system, with potential criminal penalties for the caller including filing a false police report and harassment. Like all other criminals, these callers should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
If you wish to protest or express your displeasure against the legal open (or concealed) carry of firearms, the 911 emergency reporting system is not the appropriate or legal venue, and knowingly abusing it will likely subject you to serious penalties.
If you are unhappy with people legally carrying firearms in any establishment, I would suggest you politely complain to the owners or contact your legislators. If you choose to contact 911 to complain about entirely legal conduct, do not be surprised when you are quite correctly treated as the criminal, and don't say you weren't warned of the consequences.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Even if that offends the NRA's internet lawyers.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Did not learn anything from your latest vacation I see. Just how many vacations has it been now for you now?
stone space
(6,498 posts)...to intimidate folks from running and calling 911 with their stupid legal threats.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Stating that abuse of the 911 system can be a crime. To bad. I am sure the person with an actual emergency waiting in vain for an officer while you advocate lying and abusing the system. I just hope nobody dies due to that abuse. That would truly be sad and I do not know how you could live with yourself after that. Do you remember the murder of the young man in Walmart after a 911 call that the caller lied about to the dispatcher. Yep, the cops came and killed him. I am sure the caller feels great about that.
DashOneBravo
(2,679 posts)before going in time out.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)DashOneBravo
(2,679 posts)I thought you posted a couple sniveling apology threads before your last timeout.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)It was genuine and from the heart but was hidden anyway. That is ok, it was months ago, you must follow me closely but are not correct.
here you go, I found my one apology post I guess you were referencing.
For everyone to see
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026434885
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026434885#post10
DashOneBravo
(2,679 posts)until you set the standard.
"Did not learn anything from your latest vacation I see. Just how many vacations has it been now for you now?"
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)old hide from 52 days ago. That poster has been on several and still goes around posting insults. I think I am allowed to point that out. Have a great night, sounds kind of like you are after me for some reason.
DashOneBravo
(2,679 posts)I'm not after you.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Have a great day. 
branford
(4,462 posts)First, despite your numerous involuntary absences from DU, we've engaged in a number of prior discussions concerning firearms and related jurisprudence. As our discussions and my many others attest, I am indeed actual licensed attorney (litigator in NY and NJ), and am further informed on the pertinent issues through my prior employment at the NIJ, DOJ, in Washington, D.C., researching firearm (and many other) criminal justice issues.
Nevertheless, despite my firm but comparatively moderate support for constitutional gun rights (and simple statistics), I am neither a gun owner, nor have I ever represented the NRA or any other firearm group or lobby.
Here's a small piece of advice which doesn't require a law degree or decades of legal experience. Screaming about the NRA in an otherwise substantive discussion about firearm jurisprudence and basic criminal law is not persuasive, immaturely emotive, and reveals a disturbing ignorance of the subject matter.
However, feel free to ignore common sense and basic civics, and promptly call 911 every time you see someone legally carrying a firearm and breaking no other law. Maybe the resulting incarceration for filing false police reports and harassment with real criminals who've likely employed firearms in their criminal enterprises and actually pose a threat to public safety might provide you with a new and improved perspective on the subject.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Internet lawyers don't scare me.
So knock off the threats, already.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Just stating facts
branford
(4,462 posts)It doesn't take a lawyer to know that the 911 system is reserved for actual, real emergencies. Knowingly or carelessly using it for other purposes will subject the caller to various criminal charges and penalties, to say nothing of those harmed because police, fire, and emergency response personnel were wasting their time elsewhere instead of dealing with those whom the 911 system was meant to aid and protect.
Carrying a firearm where legal and committing no other crimes is NOT an emergency or exigent circumstance, no matter the level of your personal fear or disgust. Reporting someone as a threat to 911 under these circumstances is patently illegal, has actually caused the death of innocent and law-abiding individuals (usually young, minority males), and has been repeatedly prosecuted.
If you abuse the 911 system and face severe criminal and civil penalties, don't say you weren't warned and expect no pity or sympathy from anyone due to your intentional and gratuitous selfishness.
If innocents needlessly die investigating your complaints or because crucial emergency resources were diverted, complaining about the NRA or "internet lawyers" will not help you, even among most of the gun control crowd.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Police Did Not Treat 911 Call About Colorado Gunman as "Highest Priority"
When an alarmed resident called just before the rampage, the dispatcher told her it's legal to carry a rifle in public.
As I first reported late Monday, questions are hanging over how the Colorado Springs Police Department handled a 911 call on Saturday morning, when a resident saw a man carrying a rifle on her residential block prior to a deadly gun rampage. The caller, Naomi Bettis, was alarmed about 33-year-old Noah Harpham—who soon went on to shoot three people to death in the area before being killed by police. But when Bettis made the 911 call, her first of two, the police dispatcher apparently reacted without urgency, telling Bettis about Colorado's law allowing firearms to be carried openly in public. Bettis hung up, and when she called back it was because the killing was underway.
Did Colorado's open carry law in effect hinder a police response to Harpham before he struck?
The first time Bettis dialed 911 and spoke with a dispatcher, "a call for service was built for officers to respond," Lt. Catherine Buckley of the Colorado Springs PD told Mother Jones. "But it wasn't the highest priority call for service."
-snip-
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/11/colorado-springs-mass-shooting-911-call-open-carry
This goes to show you how fucked-up our gun laws are.
bonniebgood
(943 posts)
Brainstormy
(2,381 posts)I wouldn't dream of staying in a restaurant where I saw an individual with a firearm.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...is simply ridiculous.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)
Augiedog
(2,548 posts)as he thinks it is. Sorry but I think this professor has hit on the perfect solution to an apparently intractable problem. Without stringent laws and enforcement of those laws we can have no confidence in your notion that this gun totter is sane or rational let alone law abiding.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)And all those states have been doing just fine.
Where, exactly, is the "intractable problem" except in the imagination of this idiot professor and some people on here?
elias49
(4,259 posts)I'm not going to wait until cave-man sits, orders, gets a couple of drinks - and maybe just one more - eats, gets dessert, shows how friendly he is with his gun slung on the back of his chair...foolish proposition to start.
I see a man with a gun, I can get up. walk out the door, and visit the restaurant later or the next day and pay for my meal. And at the same time, tell the manager that I won't be back until he changes his policy about allowing cowboys into his establishment.
Hopefully, a lot of people engaging in this stupidity (open=carrying through crowds of people, including children), get the picture, we can get back to civil society.
Have a good day Lee
Kingofalldems
(38,468 posts)And a gun in plain sight can absolutely be considered a threat.
I guess you forgot that when you called them thieves.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)From both a logical standpoint and one of how the law reads.
Run out without paying for a meal because someone has a gun in a holster and the owners of the establishment will rightfully call the police, who will pull you over, take you back to the scene and give the owner of the establishment the decision if they want to press charges or not if you pay.
And when its all over they won't say "I shouldn't allow guns" they will say "that person was a real kook".
What if some racist ran out without paying because a bunch of black people came in and they "felt threatened"? It the exact same absence of logic as you are showing just applied to different people.....
Blue_Adept
(6,399 posts)Here, let me hand you some fucking empathy.
You realize other people have vastly different life experiences and the arrival of someone with an open carry weapon could set off all kinds of issues for them? You know, people that have been mugged at gun point, threatened by family members with guns before, dealt with a whole host of other issues?
Yeah, it's not a threat to you because you're tough as balls. We get it.
You need to understand the other side of it. Other people DO FEEL FUCKING THREATENED by that shit and they will respond accordingly.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Sorry, but while I understand that some people may have an irrational response to seeing some things, that isn't justification for the kind of theft advocated in the original post.
Want to leave? Go right ahead- but pay for your food and tip your server.
Your irrational emotional response doesn't justify theft- and the theft for the purpose of making a political point is what the OP is advocating.
Kingofalldems
(38,468 posts)Extremely poor analogy.
Skittles
(153,174 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Demit
(11,238 posts)I knew this is what I'm going to do if it ever happens to me. I might throw some money down on the table if I've already eaten the meal. But there are legitimate reasons to leave a restaurant, after ordering but before you've been served, and I believe this has become one of them.
Indydem
(2,642 posts)If your delicate sensibilities are scared, you should probably run away.
Living in fear is no way to live.
I guess if a clown comes in, you can leave without paying? People are "truly scared" of clowns.
Maybe if there is a spider in the restaurant? People are "truly scared" of spiders.
Maybe if there is a black man in the restaurant? After all, some people are "truly scared" of "them."
Unbelievable.
Part of being in a society is accepting that not everyone is exactly like us and learning to live together. Not being scared of everything.
7962
(11,841 posts)Maybe suggest to the business to just post a sign saying "no openly carried weapons". That way,the gun guy cpuld still be protected, just not in the open, and no one else would know
Kingofalldems
(38,468 posts)Way to change the subject.
Indydem
(2,642 posts)You are not going to be killed in a mass shooting.
The odds are ridiculously low.
You have an unfounded an irrational fear of human beings.
Go cower at home.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)On Tue Jan 5, 2016, 08:21 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
Not changing the subject.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7499695
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Personal attack. Feeling threatened by someone displaying a gun is not cowering.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Jan 5, 2016, 08:31 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: What a petty and absurd alert
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't like this post, but I think it should stand to show the idiocy involved. I hope he is answered by others in the thread.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Tired of these guys here.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
Indydem
(2,642 posts)When people have nothing but base emotions to make arguments, they often times get mad. And sad.
I get a lot of alerts.
The fact that it got 2 votes to hide is the problem.
Kingofalldems
(38,468 posts)hopemountain
(3,919 posts)point out that emotion is a sign of weakness.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)I put 'accidental' in quotes, because the idiots who don't know how to safely secure their guns should be held liable more often.
And frankly, the onus should be on you to cower at home if you can't walk about with a gun to make you feel safe.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Look at the total number of guns in the US, and the total number of homicides.
Look at the number of concealed carry holders and the number of accidents they have or crimes they commit where people get shot.
There are over 14,000,000 concealed carry permit holders in the US. How many crime or accidents by them can you show me for 2015, and how do those odds lay out?
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)And those accidents happen often enough to not trust someone openly carrying a weapon.
A gun in a holster is less worrisome. If it goes off unintentionally the potential danger is much less.
I am referring more specifically to this sort:
snort
(2,334 posts)That's their crowd and those are their boys, the kind of men a man's man can hang out with. It could not possibly get any more macho. None but the brave. Etc..
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)to make any kind of reliable comment on how likely you are to be a victim of a mass murder :-P
Demit
(11,238 posts)Part of being in a society is exercising common sense, and withdrawing from a situation that has the potential to go bad.
Or else why are gun nuts carrying guns in the first place? They are the ones expecting something to go bad.
They are the ones so afraid of life that they feel they must be armed to cope with it.
Most of them are doing it to annoy you.
Demit
(11,238 posts)Indydem
(2,642 posts)Getting pretty tired of people like you telling everyone else how to live their lives.
Demit
(11,238 posts)That's the point that you're not getting.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)We lose more than our bet, we lose our lives too.
But that's just fine and dandy with the gun humpers, as long as they can wave their proxy penises around in public.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)You really see no difference between a spider and what might be a nut with a weapon that can cause mass carnage in less than a minute?
Wow. That's truly astounding.
Tikki
(14,559 posts)No one should feel unsafe just so someone can show off with a weapon.
Tikki
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)They can send you a bill...and you may pay it in the safety of your home.... or anywhere where there are not loaded weapons and paranoid narcissists.
mountain grammy
(26,642 posts)to stay put and risk your life and sit there. I would put money on the table in a restaurant and leave immediately. If I didn't have cash, I would phone the restaurant and pay over the phone. In a store, I would leave my items and leave.
Here's what happened in Colorado Springs:
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2015/11/open-carry-mass-shooting-colorado-springs
So, sitting there waiting to find out if the open carry asshole is a good tipper who pays their bill seems like the stupidest thing I've read this week.
Flying Squirrel
(3,041 posts)You'd prosecute the patrons for running out of the building?
There's no way to tell a "good guy with a gun" from a "bad guy with a gun" just by looking. Who knows what's going on in their head. The guy who shot up the black church sat through half the prayer meeting with them beforehand. Someone antisocial enough to open carry, law or no law, just might be antisocial enough to shoot someone in the restaurant for some perceived insult -- I wouldn't want to get caught in the crossfire. I'm not gonna stop and pay before getting out of danger. Maybe next time I go there (after the restaurant has announced that patrons may not open-carry in their private establishment) I'll pay the manager for what I was actually able to eat and tip the server extra.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)I'm dashing ASAP.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Only one person is a criminal...
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)The bill could be paid later, when the gun nut was off the premises.
It would be nice if gun humpers cared as much about the mass slaughters in this country as they do about unpaid restaurant bills.
Skittles
(153,174 posts)it is part of their paranoia
people don't like paranoid gun humping assholes
haele
(12,667 posts)The only times I saw anyone open carry into a business was if they had walked or rode their horse or motorcycle into town.
Everyone else left their firearms in their vehicles. And I figure that pretty near 3/4 of the local population carried guns with them when they left the house, because there were snakes, and mountain lions, coyote, and bears. And to ensure that any animal they hit while they were getting into town didn't suffer.
Because this was during the 1960's, up in very red Northern California, where everyone knew everyone else, and they were all polite.
If there were strangers in the store or restaurant, the manager would yell "Hey Joe, how was hunting?" or something like that when someone who was carrying walked in, and ease the situation for people who might not know that "Joe" was harmless.
However, anyone that wasn't known who came in with a firearm was told to leave it in the car, or leave.
And that's how open carry was handled when I grew up. You only carried if there was a reasonable chance you might need it - for varmints or for mercy-killings of animals that were involved in serious accidents.
But you didn't just "walk around" with a gun to feel comfortable. You respected your neighbors, and showed you were going to be peaceful.
Haele
Demit
(11,238 posts)Sounds like the people there knew what guns were for, when they needed them & when they didn't. Sounds like they didn't need to wear guns to prove something.
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)Those people didn't worry me for one reason. I knew them, I knew their histories and their families, and I knew what I could assume their intentions were. There was trust because there was shared bond of friendship and familiarity.
But if a complete stranger walks into a big city restaurant with an open carry gun, I'm leaving. Fast. In a case like that I do not know that person, I do not know his intentions, I do not know what he might or might not do, and I'm not risking my life to find out.
haele
(12,667 posts)If I don't know you, or if I don't trust you, I'm leaving the store, or restaurant, or whatever - no matter what the modern "RKBA" advocates want to push on the rest of us about how "normal" a gun should be in everyone's life.
When was I growing up, I learned that all firearms (and bow weapons) are designed to do is deliver projectiles at a target. Even if it's the projectiles are just blanks/blunts, rock salt, or bb's. And that all projectiles can kill. So you had to respect the sole function of the firearm/projectile weapon - and maintained that weapon accordingly. Safe storage and handling. Appropriate type acquisition for your circumstance and needs.
And rule # 1 - You never handle a firearm - or other projectile weapon - unless you plan to shoot at something.
Pretty simplistic attitudes, but there it is. A firearm is a specific use tool.
Look, I'm not afraid of guns; I know how to shoot well, I've carried before; hell, I've been shot at - but I don't even have a gun secured at home - even as I do live in one of the most gang-ridden neighborhoods in the city. No need to. I'm polite, aware of my surroundings, and know how to carry myself appropriate to those surrounding - so I don't feel the need to carry a weapon other than maybe a key-ring to protect myself.
The only thing that carrying a gun around my person at all times might do in any situation I find myself in would be to escalate the situation.
And I really don't get the impression that most of the strident "respect my guns" proponents can grok that.
Haele
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)I like the "don't pay" angle. If the business wants to call the cops, so be it. You have a perfectly good reason for evacuating the space.
Indydem
(2,642 posts)You would never win that case in court.
There is no inherent risk of danger from the presence of a firearm. Unless of course, you get up and leave when a police officer comes in to eat.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)leaving such spaces. If you think an open carry nutbag signifies the same way in terms of inherent danger as a uniformed police officer, we should test that hypothesis on a mass scale. Just because yahoos carrying around long guns and other such nonsense is normalized to you, doesn't mean it is normal to everyone else. It is perfectly legitimate to flee immediately in the sight of somebody with a gun in a public space, especially in the age of mass shootings. You are free to have your insane gun culture, but you can have it on your own.
In any case, in most cases of public businesses, the transaction happens at the end. I am perfectly free to leave my groceries (including deli, fish, etc.) in a cart and walk from a grocery store at any time, including if they've all been scanned. Let the businesses deal with the consequences of their own policies.
Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #27)
Post removed
branford
(4,462 posts)I'm an attorney, and would welcome you providing actual legal citations to the purportedly ample number of published cases detailing how an individual open-carrying a firearms, where permitted by law and owner of a private establishment, and without breaking other laws such as brandishing, provided a viable defense for someone leaving an establishment after having partook of services without payment.
In additional to these legal cases, would you also kindly provide a reliable sampling of scholarly data, including criminal charges and convictions, of people who actually engaged in a mass shooting while otherwise legally open-carrying of a firearm. This data should be readily available and very unequivocal considering the intensity and certainty of your claimed apprehension, including your need to immediately flee any area where a civilian possesses a firearm.
LuvLoogie
(7,020 posts)because you never know when a dumbshit with a gun is going to come walking into a restaurant full of peaceful diners who could be dumbshits with guns in diguise.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Someone who thinks they need a gun in the Golden Corral, or whatever dumps they eat in, has pretty much already given notice of their dumbshit status.
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)the presence of the kind of person that thinks he needs to carry a gun in public is definitely a serious danger. I would, however, leave enough money to cover my bill on the table.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Whether or not it is a Second Amendment Patriot or a run of the mill psycho is something you are supposed to sit around and find out.
7962
(11,841 posts)Private property, so perfectly within their rights
pintobean
(18,101 posts)If open carry would scare someone, they shouldn't patronize any establishment that allows it.
Promoting dine-and-dash is pure douchebaggery.
randys1
(16,286 posts) pintobean
(18,101 posts)MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)just later call the restaurant and pay by credit card, mail them a check, etc?
pintobean
(18,101 posts)It's in the linked article.
I agree with his assessment of the asshole activists. I don't agree with promoting theft.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Theft and stealing
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)be saying to not pay later, but his plan can be modified to make it so there is payment after the fact.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)He's promoting theft. You can modify whatever you want, but you called me out for presuming what was clearly stated.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,869 posts)To carry a weapon into any establishment that has no guns allowed posted on the door.
7962
(11,841 posts)Everyone can just post their sign saying that open carry is not allowed.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,869 posts)And I don't that we will. No one in City govt. wants it.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Some open carry laws make it illegal for stores to ban open carry.
7962
(11,841 posts)Here in Ga its not, and it seems as though it would violate the rights of a store to force them. Its private property. I googled it and i found one for Nevada laws on a gun site that said signs dont carry the force of law, but a store owner can still ask that you leave and you have to
jeff47
(26,549 posts)It's a little bit quasi-private, in that they are providing a service to the public.
For example, racial discrimination is also not allowed despite it being private property.
I remember such laws at least being proposed, but didn't make a note of where.
branford
(4,462 posts)States can certainly legally protect the constitutional right to bear arm in a manner similar to how they might prohibit racial or religious discrimination at public and quasi-public venues or in employment. However, absent similar but nevertheless far more mild laws like allowing firearms to be stored in parked cars if not permitted by an employer or an establishment, I don't know of any regulations that totally remove a private landowners discretion to not allow firearms on their property.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,869 posts)Soon as I see a gun I am out of there. Leave my stuff in the cart or dinner on the table and I am out the door.
I would leave a $20 on the table. Or call from the parking lot and have them come outside to get paid. I wouldn't just not pay.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)leftyladyfrommo
(18,869 posts)It's a moot point.
I live in a city full of gang bangers. I see a gun and I am gone. Open carry isn't allowed here so if you see a gun it's time to be gone.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)I would worry about in my opinion
KentuckyWoman
(6,690 posts)Where do you get theft out of that??
leftyladyfrommo
(18,869 posts)I'm not about to stiff some poor waitress that's caught in the middle.
But it's not a problem here. I have never seen a gun anywhere. And the city doesn't want any part of it. We have enough problems with the gangs and domestic shootings. We gave enough guns around without making it worse.
santafe52
(57 posts)Any restaurant or business that allows people to bring guns in should post a large sign at their entrance stating so. Then, sane people will know to take their business elsewhere.
I will definitely leave ANY business immediately if I see someone with a gun. I will always assume that a civilian in public with a gun is a potential mass murderer.
What kind of idiot would sit there and wait to find out?
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)NONE of the ones I know feel the need to parade around in the open with their guns.
And I know some pretty weird people, so that says a lot about the ones that want to open carry.
sinkingfeeling
(51,469 posts)Response to Tripper11 (Original post)
sinkingfeeling This message was self-deleted by its author.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)I remove myself from the scene where loonies are concerned.
cannabis_flower
(3,764 posts)is to estimate your bill and either put the cash on the table (under a plate if you are worried about someone taking it) or leave and immediately call the restaurant and say, "I left your restaurant because I didn't feel safe with people carrying guns in the restaurant. I am calling to pay my bill. I will not be coming back to your restaurant until you post a sign saying you don't allow guns" I doubt under this circumstance you could be charged with anything. I actually think the latter is better because it tells the restaurant owner how you feel. If enough people do this the owner will get the message.
Not paying is theft. Also, sometimes the server has to pay for a walked check (that may not be legal but it happens and sometimes the server doesn't know it is illegal). It's not the server's fault. It's bad enough not getting a tip, but also having to pay for a walked ticket is even worse.
Duppers
(28,125 posts)And I imagine that many business owners are just as afraid of confronting these neanderthals as we are. Posted signs would be of great help to everyone.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)It's the safest course of action.
MineralMan
(146,324 posts)Walk out and call 911. A few visits by the police to that restaurant in response to a citizen call will convince the owner to post the place.
When you call, tell the 911 operator that you felt threatened by the open-carry person and want to pay for your meal, but don't feel safe in the place of business. If the operator asks if the open carry person did anything threatening, just say, "I felt threatened, so I left immediately." Since you didn't pay your bill, and are in the parking lot, a patrol car will be dispatched. Ask the officer to escort you inside so you can pay your bill, since you feel threatened by the person with the gun. You don't get in any trouble, and the police will assist you in paying.
The idea is to get the cops there and inside the restaurant, while registering your sense of being threatened enough to leave suddenly. The police will get tired of such calls. The owner of the restaurant will get tired of it. Eventually, the place will get posted.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)The dispatcher/call taker is not going to just send the police. They are going to ask you if the person is threatening people and what they are doing.
If you honestly answer and admit they are not threatening anyone you may get told it's not a crime and they won't come, or the cops may come and tell you that you can't call 911 for legal activity. And if you keep doing that after being told not to you can be arrested for misusing 911. And they won't take you seriously.
If you lie and say that they are threatening people, most places have video cameras and DVRs and it won't end well for you.
When I was a deputy we had people who moved from the city into the country and would call 911 because they heard gunshots. The dispatcher would ask if they were being shot at- no- were the people shooting in a dangerous manner- usually no or they would lie- and then if it was a slow day they would send one of us out to church after explaining that in the county shooting on private property is legal. We would drive to where someone was shooting, see they were shooting safely on private property, then go give the person who called 911 a talk on what does and does not constitute something worth dialing 911 and not to call unless there was a crime or actual unsafe act to report and that now that they live in the country hearing gunshots is just part of living here.
We had one person of the mindset of this OP and many here who thought they could stop a neighbor who had a range from shooting by dialing 911 every time. What they ended up getting was a day in court for abusing the 911 system after verbal and written notice to cut it out.
Solomon
(12,319 posts)and carry is a black guy. We'll see how seriously they take it. They will rush there to shoot him dead. I've never seen an arrest for a white person calling 911 I on some innocent black guy.
stone space
(6,498 posts) JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)"With all the mass shootings over the last few years, I simply could not wait for them to start shooting people."
"See something, say something. So I'm saying something."
uponit7771
(90,348 posts)hunter
(38,322 posts)The cops shoot people with guns, ask questions later.
It recently happened at a fast food place within walking distance of my house.
Middle aged guy walked into the place with a gun, God knows why, didn't overtly threaten anyone, employees called 911, the police stormed in and shot the guy dead.
Mostly it's been written off as some kind of bizarre suicide-by-cop.
MineralMan
(146,324 posts)what the law is here. During hunting season, of course, you'll see armed individuals in areas where hunting takes place. But I've never seen anyone carrying openly here otherwise, except for police officers and other law enforcement personnel.
ecstatic
(32,727 posts)Ummm...No thanks. Cops are always armed and often the most unhinged folks in the room. I'd call the manager and ask him/her to accept payment outside. And the entire episode would be recorded for future reference.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)and they can present me with the bill there, whereupon I will pay the bill and the tip. I will also tell them I won't be returning because I don't feel safe in their establishment. Luckily, I'm in California and we don't have stupid open carry here.
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)and yes I'd agree. should I pay for it? maybe later after the guys with the guns are gone. maybe say I'm gonna find a bullet proof vest just in case. can't tell bad from good..
nevermind how fast it is for a bad guy to remove a good guy in theory, of his gun the open carry idiots seem think the world works with the God Mode on..
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)Iggo
(47,563 posts)I pay the bill on the way out and I tell them why I'm leaving.
But I go.
Immediately.
sweetapogee
(1,168 posts)The eatery should have a open carry room where the nutters can eat, a non-open carry room for the rest of us!
Vinca
(50,300 posts)When businesses lose money from customers unwilling to wait and find out if it's a good guy with a gun or a bad guy with a gun, they'll start to put up "No Guns Allowed" signs.
hunter
(38,322 posts)"Hey you! What's with the fucking gun?"
I'm sort of immature that way.
Flying Squirrel
(3,041 posts)And bulletproof? At least you recognize your own immaturity, that's a start.
hunter
(38,322 posts)
I think it's pathetic.
Flying Squirrel
(3,041 posts)But responding to immaturity with immaturity never does anything for anyone.
hunter
(38,322 posts)... I'm even more inclined to throw food.
My brother once owned a rather rough beer-drinking establishment.
He's a big guy and he kept a monster aluminum softball bat underneath the counter.
He never had any trouble asking customers to leave. Especially armed customers.
He's got some funny "fools with guns" stories. So do I.
As children we once saw my mom take someone's gun and break it. Poor pathetic fool ran away yelling "I'm gonna sue you!," leaving both his precious gun and his dignity behind. He never did sue.
I think that's where my brother and I got the Berserker genes.
I can't help but notice that "open carry" fools never venture into places where gun violence is a real problem.
I live in a place where gun violence is a real problem.
On that Slate magazine gun violence survey I got this result:
There have been 7 shootings within a 1-mile radius of this point in the past year, 5 fatal and 2 non-fatal.
This is one of the better neighborhoods of our city. I feel safe here. I've never felt any need to carry a gun and I've lived in many rougher places.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)steve2470
(37,457 posts)I don't. I daresay I'm amongst the overwhelming majority too.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,869 posts)It's like talking abortion. Total waste of time.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)uponit7771
(90,348 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)not be completely on board with what the professor is saying but do see the problems some of the gun types are creating.
Skittles
(153,174 posts)(in a restaurant I would take the food and pay and leave)
gun humpers make me sick
Warpy
(111,318 posts)Just get up and leave. If it's a restaurant, wait outside and offer to settle the bill but tell the manager your life is worth more than his convenience at the register, and that you were sorry his policy didn't allow you to finish your meal. You won't be back.
Anywhere else, just leave things where they are and walk out, meaning full carts in the aisle and purchases on a counter waiting to be rung up.
After all, there is absolutely no way to tell an open carry nutbar from a nutbar who's going to open fire on strangers at any minute. About the only way you can keep them out is by inconveniencing the businesses that allow them. Eventually they'll get the point, post signs, and call the cops on violators.
Leave the fucking things in the car, guys. They don't belong in supermarkets, malls, churches, or anywhere else people gather and want to be relatively safe while they conduct their business.
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)I think you'd agree, leaving is a wise course of action.
When someone walks into a restaurant with a gun on their hip, or an assault rifle in their hands they are still saying, albeit non-verbally, "I can kill you all with one finger."
The very action of walking into a restaurant with a gun is making that statement. By displaying the gun they clearly want everyone in view to know, unequivocally, that they could kill you with one finger. Anyone who makes that statement in my presence, verbally, or non-verbally, is to be considered a threat, and I would leave as quickly as I possibly could.
ecstatic
(32,727 posts)anyone who tried to leave without paying the tab. After all, what's the point of carrying a gun if you never get the chance to use it?
A woman with a concealed pistol license opened fire several times at a shoplifter fleeing a Home Depot in Auburn Hills, Mich., on Tuesday (Oct. 6), the Detroit Free Press reported. No one was injured, but authorities think the woman may have hit a tire on the sport utility vehicle in which the shoplifter fled.
Link: http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2015/10/woman_with_concealed_carry_per.html
Seriously, this whole thing (2nd amendment, etc) has become disturbing and disgusting beyond measure.
Trajan
(19,089 posts)I like it .... Thanks !
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)Then just go social media and tweet or FB the business that allows open carry.
ellenrr
(3,864 posts)which they fear is not "up to par".
However, I'm not sure I would point this out to an armed person for fear of being shot.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)After all, those training videos about how to deal with a mass-shooter always begin AFTER the shooting starts. I'm not going to wait around for THAT!