General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSomething smells about the captured American Navy vessel?
Where is the radio contact?
An American boat, with 10 US sailors aboard, is disabled off the coast of Farsi Island, the site of an Iranian naval base. The Americans surrender to the Iranian Navy forces.
Then, in less than 24 hours, they are released by the Iranians.
My conspiratorial mind wonders what they were doing there? Did Obama know about the exercises around Farsi Island?
Since we know that the Israelis, and many right-wingers in this country, were very much against the nuclear deal recently completed between the Administration and the Iranian government, is it possible that it was a "created" incident, created in hopes of creating a crisis between the two governments?
Just thinking out loud, but something smells about this little "incident", in my opinion.
tecelote
(5,122 posts)kentuck
(111,104 posts)Gulf of Tonkin, Jr...
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Warpy
(111,282 posts)and not start a war of corporate convenience by demonstrating how reasonable the Iranian government is.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)Evidence was still being sought on the night of August 4 when Johnson gave his address to the American public on the incident. Messages recorded that day indicate that neither President Johnson nor Secretary McNamara was certain of an attack.[30]
Various news sources, including Time, Life and Newsweek, ran articles throughout August on the Tonkin Gulf incident.[31] Time reported: "Through the darkness, from the West and south...intruders boldly sped...at least six of them... they opened fire on the destroyers with automatic weapons, this time from as close as 2,000 yards."[32] Time stated that there was "no doubt in Sharp's mind that the US would now have to answer this attack", and that there was no debate or confusion within the administration regarding the incident.[32]
The use of the set of incidents as a pretext for escalation of US involvement follows the issuance of public threats against North Vietnam, as well as calls from American politicians in favor of escalating the war.[33] On May 4, 1964, William Bundy called for the US to "drive the communists out of South Vietnam", even if that meant attacking both North Vietnam and communist China.[33] Even so, the Johnson administration in the second half of 1964 focused on convincing the American public that there was no chance of war between North Vietnam and the US.[33]
North Vietnam's General Giap suggested that the DESOTO patrol had been sent into the gulf to provoke North Vietnam into giving an excuse for escalation of the war.[33] Various government officials and men aboard Maddox have suggested similar theories.[33] American politicians and strategists had been planning provocative actions against North Vietnam for some time. George Ball told a British journalist after the war that "at that time...many people...were looking for any excuse to initiate bombing".[33]
According to Raymond McGovern, a retired CIA officer, CIA analyst from 1963 to 1990, and in the 1980s, chairman of the National Intelligence Estimates, the CIA, "not to mention President Lyndon Johnson, Defense Secretary Robert McNamara and National Security Adviser McGeorge Bundy all knew full well that the evidence of any armed attack on the evening of Aug. 4, 1964, the so-called "second" Tonkin Gulf incident, was highly dubious....During the summer of 1964, President Johnson and the Joint Chiefs of Staff were eager to widen the war in Vietnam. They stepped up sabotage and hit-and-run attacks on the coast of North Vietnam". Maddox, carrying electronic spying gear, was to collect signals intelligence from the North Vietnamese coast, and the coastal attacks were seen as a helpful way to get the North Vietnamese to turn on their coastal radars. For this purpose, it was authorized to approach the coast as close as eight miles and the offshore islands as close as four; the latter had already been subjected to shelling from the sea.[34]
In his book, Body of Secrets, James Bamford, who spent three years in the United States Navy as an intelligence analyst, writes, that the primary purpose of the Maddox "was to act as a seagoing provocateurto poke its sharp gray bow and the American flag as close to the belly of North Vietnam as possible, in effect shoving its five-inch cannons up the nose of the communist navy ..... The Maddox ' mission was made even more provocative by being timed to coincide with commando raids, creating the impression that the Maddox was directing those missions ..."[35] Thus, the North Vietnamese had every reason to believe that the Maddox was involved in these actions.[citation needed]
Provocative action against North Vietnam was considered after the August 1964 incidents John McNaughton suggested in September 1964, that the US prepare to take actions to provoke a North Vietnamese military reaction, including plans to use DESOTO patrols North. William Bundy's paper dated September 8, 1964, suggested more DESOTO patrols as well.[33]
--more--
Wikipedia: Gulf of Tonkin incident
I don't know...
lapfog_1
(29,205 posts)Someone in DOD or even the "captain" of the boat(s) decided to create an incident on the day of the SOTU speech to distract from domestic issues and focus on the Iran nuclear deal and our problems in the ME in general.
As one MSNBC commentator pointed out... all of the explanations given so far (navigational equipment failure, steering failure, ran out of gas) have major problems because there were many ways to get out of those situations (or not get into Iran's claimed waters in the first place) that the crew members would have been trained to do.
However, if their plan was to create another Iran hostage situation, cooler heads on both sides prevailed and the crew and the boats were returned to our forces there within 24 hours with no shots being fired. The pictures of US forces on their knees (on their own boats) with guns trained on them aren't helping anything... but if the situation was reversed and Iranian Revolutionary Guards were caught just off shore from a US Navy outpost, I think we would have seen similar pictures of their crew in our custody.
malaise
(269,067 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)IMO, it was a simple spying mission.
"Boat got disabled" is the excuse why they were in Iranian waters. "No radio contact" is the excuse why they were not helped by a US ship when their boat was "disabled".
montanacowboy
(6,093 posts)a military type on CNN this morning said that is highly unusual
Wounded Bear
(58,670 posts)they were traversing from one country to another. Perhaps their passports would have been necessary to enter the new country?
Ex Lurker
(3,815 posts)so there's no need to carry both. That said, I highly doubt there's anything to this other than what was stated. Somebody screwed up and/or there was a mechanical problem.
dumbcat
(2,120 posts)like a Status of Forces Agreement. Not too many of those nowadays.
When I was an officer in SE Asia during the Viet Nam conflict I carried two and sometimes three passports (green civilian, burgundy Official, and sometimes black diplomatic) depending on where we were traveling and what we were doing.
dumbcat
(2,120 posts)and between counties with no US Status of Forces Agreement. When I was in the military back in the 70's and 80's I carried two and sometimes three passports.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)this doesn't seem like a very effective method. I'm thinking it was just a mistake of some kind.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Wounded Bear
(58,670 posts)haele
(12,660 posts)And delicate electronics sitting in what is basically a Zodiac on steroids really don't like sand very much. Especially ones that are mounted "topside".I've cleaned out my share of corroded and sand-damaged shipboard radars, receivers and transmitters that came from ships coming back after a deployment in the Persian Gulf area.
I'd be looking at the maintenance and parts records first, myself. All this sequestration, continuance, and "draw-down" funding that has been going on over the past couple years really takes a toll on all sorts of equipment. Secret and not-so-secret missions aside, there can be some very innocuous reason they ended up stranded in the wrong place if maintenance hasn't been kept up and someone tried something a bit more fancy than one of the boats could handle.
Haele
Wounded Bear
(58,670 posts)never worked in the desert much, other than a couple of deployments to Yuma AZ, but spent a year on a carrier in the Med.
Had a radar package once they were working on it when the plane was parked on the elevator. Took a wave that doused the left side of the whole radar package with sea water. That was a bit of a mess.
But salt air, and yes sand and dust, can play hell on circuitry to be sure.
I try not to speculate too much on shit like this. Better to wait and let the facts come out. I'm just glad we got our people back without a lot of additional bloodshed or political wrangling.
malaise
(269,067 posts)Obama fucked them up again -diplomacy wins.
The way the hacks are looking for a story all now suggests that this was suppose to replace the SOTU last night - and the neo-cons would have a field day at the debate on Thursday.
betsuni
(25,546 posts)H2O Man
(73,561 posts)I had a group of friends here last night, for the State of the Union. When the reports on this issue came up, all of us who lived during the Vietnam era had the same reaction .....and although I doubt we ever hear the full truth about what happened -- and why -- it just seemed timed for a distinct purpose. However, if that is correct, the effort failed.
kentuck
(111,104 posts)...it appears it failed to create any type of crisis between the two countries?
JI7
(89,252 posts)like just hanging out. i hope they liked the food.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)may be in deep shit if it's found they fucked up or didn't follow orders in some way that led to capture, or if they should have damaged/removed sensitive equipment and didn't, etc. No military person wants to be in the position they were in--on their knees, hands up, helpless before an adversary. That's humiliating.
JI7
(89,252 posts)always having to feel like your pride was attacked and needing to get revenge on it.
making things out to be worse than they are.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)of them. They are going to have a lot to explain when they see their commanders.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)DVRacer
(707 posts)I stole this from another post about this.
Matt Bracken's thoughts: "I rarely pull out my dusty old trident, but in this case, here goes. I was a Navy SEAL officer in the 1980s, and this kind of operation (transiting small boats in foreign waters) was our bread and butter. Today, these boats both not only had radar, but multiple GPS devices, including chart plotters that place your boat's icon right on the chart. The claim by Iran that the USN boats "strayed into Iranian waters" is complete bull$#it.
For an open-water transit between nations, the course is studied and planned in advance by the leaders of the Riverine Squadron, with specific attention given to staying wide and clear of any hostile nation's claimed territorial waters. The boats are given a complete mechanical check before departure, and they have sufficient fuel to accomplish their mission plus extra. If, for some unexplainable and rare circumstance one boat broke down, the other would tow it, that's why two boats go on these trips and not one! It's called "self-rescue" and it's SOP.
This entire situation is in my area of expertise. I can state with complete confidence that both Iran and our own State Department are lying. The boats did not enter Iranian waters. They were overtaken in international waters by Iranian patrol boats that were so superior in both speed and firepower that it became a "hands up!" situation, with automatic cannons in the 40mm to 76mm range pointed at them point-blank. Surrender, hands up, or be blown out of the water. I assume that the Iranians had an English speaker on a loudspeaker to make the demand. This takedown was no accident or coincidence, it was a planned slap across America's face.
Just watch. The released sailors will be ordered not to say a word about the incident, and the Iranians will have taken every GPS device, chart-plotter etc off the boats, so that we will not be able to prove where our boats were taken.
The "strayed into Iranian waters" story being put out by Iran, is utter and complete BS from one end to the other." - Matt Bracken
I personally leave the State Department out of it but the scenario makes perfect sense to this sailor.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)This appears to be some type of intelligence operation which means everyone should move on
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Matt Bracken, whoever the heck that is, can make up a story as well as anyone else.
Sam_Fields
(305 posts)flamingdem
(39,313 posts)they were spying and got caught but Iran let them go for obvious reasons.
They sounded super apologetic in a recording......
egduj
(805 posts)A confrontation with Iran would be disastrous at this time.